6 de octubre de 2008
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Wilkie Collins
Quiénes somos
- EOIGoya_Inglés
- El Departamento de Inglés de a Escuela Oficial de Idiomas (EOI) "Goya" se suma con este proyecto de blog, con el blog de teatro y con su página de vídeos en YouTube a la explotación de las nuevas tecnologías como parte de la enseñanza de idiomas en la enseñanza pública en Madrid. Un cálido agradecimiento a CMF, sin cuya colaboración esto no sería posible.
Concurso 2007-08
855 comentarios:
«El más antiguo ‹Más antiguo 401 – 600 de 855 Más reciente› El más reciente»Maria,I think Jane feels hurt as I said, Mr Rochester bringing that kind of visitors and requiring her to stay in the room with the new acquaintances.She is having a hard time and as soon as he addresses to her she tries to show it to him.(That´s the punishment)
Roberto, the extract from Woody Allen's film is very funny! I suppose it being natural that when we notice we are paying too much attention to someone, we try ignoring him/her. Then, shall it be the changing that denote our interest in that person?
Thank you Robert.I suppose that you had read the comments from December 3th(María, Elena M, Carmen and I). In my opinion, something very obvious is tasteless and it plays down its importance, specially in front of an "audience", I mean (all the guests in Thornfield Hall).
Another think is that Mr.Rochester might not be not in love with Jane and his behaviour might be more passionate in front of an “audience”, but passion is not love. Let me explain that passion is temporary, a condition of euphoria that we all (sometimes) wish would last forever and the problem with that state of euphoria is that we would never accomplish much of anything else, we would be distracted for a while, and I believe this is the situation with Blanche, he is flirting with her in front of an audience because his feelings are not so important, he is not in love with her.
However, behind of his very contradictory character, he is very sensitive with Jane, and his love for Jane is so real that he must not put at risk, because true love is far more than romance and passion.
Ok, Silvia, you are right. Jane is so proud that she feels herself to be able to punish Rochester. I agree.
Roberto and Elena, you are great, you know how to seduce! ;) It is absolutely true that men and woman, something in common at least (I say that because of our discussion at Hamlet´s thread), like the others the more they ignore them. Or if they see that they are unachievable... They´ll do their best in the conquest.
Esther, I don´t think it is a matter of age, but it may be, because I´m nearly Jane´s age, and for sure it would have happened to me the same.
Susan, I could think as you before, but now, I don´t suposse any passion in Rochester´s feeling toward Blanche. He is makin fun of her, don´t you think? But you has a point, beauty is something that men can´t resist even when they are in love... Boys, do you agree? Or, as Carmen says, are you the exception that proves the rule? ;)
mistakes: "feelings", "making" and "you have a point"
Chapter 18
Jane is in despair but she does not feel jealousy. She thinks that Miss Ingram is a mark beneath jealousy because she is too inferior to excite the feeling. Jane has been able to identify more than ten reasons to support her previous judgement on short notice. No doubt Jane must be very good at dealing with people, mustn’t she?
My dear Mates, you are writing so much and so fast that I’m unable to answer you all. I beg you to forgive me for that. Regarding Mr. Rochester I don’t know what he is playing at. For me there is no doubt he loves Jane, but, according with the way in which he treats her, and, most important, Miss Ingram, in front of her, I cannot avoid to think if there is some reason which could make impossible for him that love. I mean, I cannot forget he has something in his past and Grace Poole and everything. Perhaps he doesn’t want to hurt her, because he is in love, and perhaps he doesn’t mind hurting Blanche, just for the opposite reason. At first I thought he was trying to make her feel jealous/as he promised) but now I’m not so sure. What do you think? Do you know why he ran away the morning after the fire, after making clear he was feeling something, and now he behaves like that? Is he trying that Jane forgets him? (Because undoubtedly he knows Jane loves him)
Sorry, one mistake: avoid doing something
Are we talking about true love? If I liked someone I´d prefer it if he made me feel special, I´d prefer it if he made me laugh and fly. If I wanted to conquest somebody I´d made him feel great wouldn´t I? Ignoring, turning your eyes to others and making fun of are not the weapons to get the heart of your love, but it could be a matter of age because when your are young to seduce can be a challenge.
Jane has obviously interested Mr. Rochester because, by her side, he is at liberty to be what he really is, nevertheless, it is his “secret” and not Jane’s position as the governess that still prevents him taking another step. Thus, he is forced to conceal his sentiments once and again, trying to get relief by means of frivolities (Miss Ingram?) till he finds out whether Jane will always support him, come what may.
I do not think Mr. Rochester to be under the necessity of making Jane envious, for we know he is not worried about social differences or gossip. Perhaps that is the reason why he wants her to remain among his acquaintances.
So desperate is he to unclose Jane’s heart that he arranged such a foolish event!
Sonia I absolutely agree with you. But I don't think it is a matter of age.
Sonia, when you are not outgoing, fear prevents showing your sentiments towards the person you are fond of , thus, willing to act as you are, the more you like the person the more you try to ignore her; you can’t help it. You are many times scared of disclosing your feelings to avoid being rejected.
By the way, would you mind telling me what you mean by saying “making fun”?, I am afraid I do not understand it.
Those of you wanting to improve your listening skills, I recommend Thomas Hardy’s “The Mayor of Casterbridge”. It is a very fascinating story full of characters to analyze and a plot with lots of surprises.
Sonia, I agree with Roberto. It´d be wonderful that the person you like likes you too and makes you feel special. But it is not usual. I mean that what you say is perfect when you are already maintaining a relationship but not in the seduction process. It is for our innate fear of being rejected by giving free rein to our feelings.
Though I also think Rochester knows Jane loves him, he is putting Jane to the test, in several situations (summonning Jane up to stay at the drawing-room, inviting her to play, with the sibyl...). What does Rochester want? What are his intentions? He´s such a joker!
Thanks for the recommendation Roberto. Where can we get it?
Maria and Roberto I’d like you to answer my question; I’m very interested in your opinion.
Regarding what you say: I get your point but, In my opinion, we must remember Charlotte Lucas’ advice in Pride and Prejudice. She is right, and this advice was given by Jane Austen 200 years ago!!
If you conceal your feelings until you have a sign and the other do the same, none of you will make the first move. And, what will happen then? In my view people need signals.
On the other hand, what happen if you are in love and the other person doesn’t show any signal of loving you? If he or she seems to be in love with someone else and ignores you all the time?
To Roberto: “You are many times scared of disclosing your feelings to avoid being rejected”. There is a saying in Spanish: The squeaky wheel gets the oil (el que no llora no mama). According with Charlotte Lucas, perhaps what you are doing is to avoid being loved
To María: “I mean that what you say is perfect when you are already maintaining a relationship but not in the seduction process”. If someone doesn't make you feel special in the seduction process, how can you fall in love with him? Do you like men who make you feel wretched? (the you I use is not a personal one, I'm speaking in general)
Oh no, I don´t say that I like being beaten at all. I wanted to be realist about love, neither white nor black. I have to fly!
to mock somebody, to make fun of somebody. Mr Rochester mocks Jane or maybe he is a little bit sarcastic. His life must have been hard but Jane could be his last chance, I hope he takes advantage of this opportunity
None of you have commented what we said in class about Rochester being cruel and Jane bitchy!!
It is accepted and enjoyed by women that men are "difficult" during the first stages of courtship, the clearest example being Mr. Darcy, possible the most popular man in literature where women are concerned. I do not think that treating a woman well, or making her feel special makes a more more acceptable and attractive to women. Love thrives when there is some sort of impediment, as is said in the Tempest:
"They are both in either's powers; but this swift business
I must uneasy make, lest too light winning
Make the prize light."
Carmen I agree with you as far as difficulties in love are concerned. That’s why Romeo and Juliet love so much to each other. But theirs are difficulties coming from others. As for the couple, I’ve always believed something nice followed by something less pleasant is needed. I agree with you, love needs difficulties. But, in my opinion, encouragement is also needed. I believe love needs both things to work out well.
Carmen, Both of them wanting to disclose their sentiments definitely, circumstances prevent doing it and, therefore, they feel frustrated. They keep provoking one another so as to make the other reacts and makes up his mind to act.
Paloma, you are right though it is rather difficult to struggle against what you are.
MISTAKE:
make the other REACT.
MISTAKE:
MAKE up his mind.
About Rochester being cruel and Jane bitchy:
Rochester. - After reading chapter 19th I thing he is not being as cruel with Jane as I used to think he was. Now I believe he is fighting with himself. In my opinion he is madly in love with Jane, and he knows she is in love with him. But he also knows her and how important the dictates of conscience are for Jane. He is afraid of her “brow” as he explains as a sibyl. And, for me, if he is afraid there must be some reason, one which can be a trouble for Jane’s conscience and can hurt her too. That’s why I think he is fighting, the same as Mr. Darcy did, although for different reasons. And he is also tired: “I have formed my plans….and in them I have attended too the claims of conscience, the counsels of reason…… I have governed myself thoroughly, I have acted as I inwardly swore I would act; but furthermight try me beyond my strength”
Jane. - There is no doubting she analyses people too much. But, is she usually wrong in her assessments? Don’t says the sibyl in Chapter 19th Blanche is after the “longest or clearest rent-roll” as possible? What surprises me is a girl of eighteen doing such analyses. I feel absolutely stupid when reading the great number of things she sees in a face; I was shocked by Mason’s description. And my question is, is she bitchy or a woman extremely intelligent? On the other hand we say in Spain: if you think the worst, you won't be far wrong...
Trusting nobody, Jane keeps defending herself by means of emotional control and is not willing to show her feelings, otherwise she would turn vulnerable. It is the deliverance of her impenetrable heart that Mr. Rochester wants to achieve.
Jane´s self-control is incredible. Rochester has made something very closer to an "informal" love declaration, so to say, whereas she didn´t bat an eyelash though lava must be boilling inside her.
Mr Rochester is not cruel with Jane, but with Blanche. He´s dying to make Jane speak about her feelings openly. Because he suspects, but doesn´t know.
After Monday class I’ve been thinking about the trio, I mean Mr. Rochester, Miss Ingram and Jane. I think Jane and Miss Ingram are very similar; both are fighting for surviving in a very oppressive time for women. They are combating for getting their objective -marrying Mr. Rochester- and both are using the arms they are allowed as women in XIX century, the arms women have been using during many years (well, even nowadays in many occasions), they can only be sibylline and play their own cards. Probably, if Miss Ingram would live today, she could earn her own living (as a business woman, an executive in some company, she is educated, she has been trained and she is very well connected) therefore, she wouldn’t have to fight for a man… and Jane… Jane is trying to ascend in the social scale, and the easiest way in that epoch (well, and also nowadays if you do not live in USA) is to be well married, although Jane in chapter 19 shows us a very modern idea for the women in XIX century (we will see today). We cannot mix up the evil character by this moment, and this is Mr. Rochester, the one who plays with these women at his whim…
Nila, it is very funny your Blanche and Jane resemblance to current women, very true.
It is clear that Jane sees Blanche as her rival, as her enemy, that´s why she has no qualms about vexing her. Jane doesn´t look as if butter wouldn´t melt in one´s mouth at all! She is too clever.
in her mouth, I think, not in one´s mouth. That means "mosquita muerta", or at least it is what I wanted to say
I agree that Jane is in love of Mr. Rochester. I do not agree with Nila that she is trying to ascend in the social scale marring him. At this stage of the novel she is the prototype of the romantic heroin that would love her prince no matter what he does or who he marry with. If Miss Ingram would live today, she could earn her own living, may be as a business woman, an executive, or even a secretary, but in any case trying to marry her boss in some company, she is the one that pretends to ascend in the social scale marring the “right” man.
Paloma, it is not the gipsy who tells that Miss Ingram is looking for the longest rent-roll available, is Mr. Rochester himself disguised as a gipsy. From the gipsy’s rather theatrical speech we know everything Mr Rochester thinks about her guests or at least what he wants Jane believe that he thinks.
Mr. Rochester is in love, but neither of Blanche nor of Jane. He is in love of himself. He wants to live a new chapter of his troubled life and a young woman like Jane matches his plans. He is selfish and egocentric as only a man can be. Jane is generous, faithful, loyal and reliable as only a woman, or a dog, can be. (Please do not get angry with me, I love and admire both in a little bit different way).
Maria, Jane sees any woman around as a possible rival, the point is that Blanche shines so much that all the others are eclipsed.
I must apologize for my exposition of chapter nineteen today. I read it at least one month ago and I realized too late I forgot most of it!
I liked very much chapter XIX from the narrative point of view. Ghost stories, tales of dead, vampires were in fashion at the time of Currer Bell’s book. Mary Shelley, Polidori and, from the other side of the ocean, E.A. Poe, were popular authors. Jane awakening after listening at the supposed gipsy seems framed in that genre.
Lies Jane when she says that she did not completely believe the disguise of Mr. Rochester?
Alessandro I agree with you about the fact that Mr. Rochester is in love of himself! Very funny and wise exposition!! but I disagree about Blanche, she already belongs to the upper class. What she doesn’t own is MONEY and she is forced to get it if she doesn’t want to be nanny.
Alessandro, of course I knew the Sybil was Mr. .Rochester. She knows perfectly well who is who in this game.
Nila, I don’t think Jane is fighting to get Mr. Rochester‘s love. At present she is doing very little, only be there for him, because she loves him. In fact she says several times “I know he is not for me” and she still thinks he will marry Blanche. What things she does do you think are in order to conquer Mr. Rochester? Perhaps there is something I miss and you have seen.
After reading both posts, Nila’s and Alessandro’s I agree more with Alessandro. I also think Blanche would try to chase her boss. Ambitious women always want, and need, more. I also agree regarding Alessandro’s opinion about Jane.
Nila, what fact makes you think Jane is trying to ascend in the social Scale?
María I ask you the same question as Nila. What do you think is Jane doing to make Mr. Rochester fall in love with her? You say she is very clever.
And Finally, Alessandro and Nila, sorry, but I must disagree with both of you with respect to Mr. Rochester being in love with himself. I think he loves Jane very much and, in some way, he is trying to protect her from something we don’t know yet. I even think he is trying to marry Blanche so as to protect Jane. Chapter 19th gave us the clue.
I say she is clever because she is. Thinking Rochester is going to marry Blanche, she says to him that she´d give her life to serve him. She is fighting, even though she says she resigns.
Rochester wants to protect Jane, maybe, but what he wants to know is whether Jane would be willing to be severily criticized or despised by everyone if someday she decided to stay near Rochester the rest of her life. Because Rochester knows that their marriage would mean the break with the rest of the society. He wants to know if Jane would be willing to accept this sacrifice.
Why do you think, Paloma, Rochester is going to marry Blanche so as to protect Jane?
Maria, I think Blanche is a mercenary woman, Mr. Rochester knows it, and we know he doesn’t like this fact, (remember Celine was also a mercenary). So he mustn’t mind hurting her. In addition, if there is something wrong in his past, as I think, Blanche only would get what she deserves, better than this, what she is “buying”, if you take my meaning. Marrying Blanche, Mr. Rochester prevents himself from marrying Jane and so, hurting her or making her unhappy. I think he loves Jane, as I’ve said several times, and for some reason he is fighting against this love. Of course I’m not sure about that, but it’s something which fits Mr. Rochester estrange behavior towards both women. It’s because I’m not sure that I’ve asked you and Nila.
contactolara@yahoo.es
This is the address of an association for the protection of stray cats and dogs; they have edited some calendars and need people to buy them, if anyone wants to collaborate, please do!!! they have 300 cats and need to send those calendars for financial support!!!!
First day of holidays!!!!
Alessandro, you have transmited Carmen your love for animals!
What do you mean when saying Blanche only would get what she deserves?
It’s really difficult to follow your posts, there is a lot! Carmen, I don’t think I know “a lot for women”. If I knew it, I could avoid (or almost foresee) some kind of problems which surround me every day dealing with them, but actually I couldn’t :-). However, I have to admit women’s behaviour is very interesting even many times it is disconcerting and could look contradictory… for me. But of course I like women.
Well, the discussion still goes on about who really Rochester loves or who Rochester is going to choose (if that were possible: a man choosing a woman and not the opposite, that is the usual fact on most occasions). As Alessandro said, I don't think Rochester be in love with Blanche or Jane, only be in love with himself.
Concerning Blanche, he has no doubts about her: she is mainly interested in his fortune, but could be suitable as a wife. With regard to Jane, I think Rochester is still playing with her and testing her, in order to know perfectly her disposition to stand him whatever he does ... You only have to look (at the sibyl play) his guiding during the mind-reading using a gipsy role in front of Jane, telling her “You are cold; you are sick; and you are silly” (19th chapter). He knows she is in love with him, but he needs to weigh up to what extent she does it.
María, as you can see, I agree with you: “Though I also think Rochester knows Jane loves him, he is putting Jane to the test, in several situations (summonning Jane up to stay at the drawing-room, inviting her to play, with the sibyl...)”.
Rochester is very clever by using the ‘fortune teller’ role for his purposes. So, I think Rochester could still be planning his best choice, but I don’t forget the wise answers from Jane: she could finally win the battle, being constant and showing self-restraint to him.
There are some interesting comments about ‘the seduction process’ spread about the posts (Maria, Sonia, Roberto…). We are given a choice of two options which stand out: on one hand, the choice of being cold, hard, indifferent to the target of your wishes, and on the other hand, the opposite, trying to appear close, amusing, and making her (or him) feel great (weapons from Sonia…). Anyway, I think you all will agree with me that it is not possible to establish a general rule about it, but I think it is advisable to keep your feelings and intentions concealed, not being so cold or so hard but being a little bit indifferent, unconcerned, even if passion is eaten you up… You always could to adopt a close behaviour if love thrives!
María: “Beauty is something that men can’t resist even when they are in love…”
I think you know this very well known Oscar Wilde quote: “I can resist everything but temptation” ; that could be an answer from a man.
Carmen, I also agree with you about ‘love thrives when there is some sort of impediment’ , it is understandable; you need difficulties for doing the stuff more interesting… Another Oscar Wilde quote (you taught it us): “The very essence of love is uncertainty” . It is absolutely true.
Have a nice Christmas and please, forgive my mistakes, I am sure I have made a lot of it!
NOTE: Please, could someone tell me the home work about reading the novel at Christmas time? Thanks!
Jack, I´m glad we are of an opinion as for Jane Eyre is concerned and as for the seduction process. Not always do all you men admit your weaknesses!
Keep reading at Christmas as always and also Romeo and Juliet´s extract. We have to write a composition and a review of Hamlet, but I don´t know whether only those who went to see the play or everybody.
Mr. Rochester is in love with Jane even though the latter is not willing to disclose her sentiments till the former shows his openly. Despite their social differences and personal condition, you can see both of them acting in the same way so as to ascertain that the other feels equally.
Jane doing her best to aid the Master, who else but one being really in love would support a person like Rochester, so faithfully and come what may, if you did not love him? On the contrary, Mr. Rochester keeps quarrelling against the governess’ reason to deliver her feelings, since he is also in love and wishes to know whether Jane will be there when circumstances might change her emotions. However and so far, there is no succeeding in the issue and not until any of them should be clear enough to make doubts vanish at length, will situation remain the same.
Chapter XX is quite close to let Mr. Rochester declare his love for Jane but once more there is something which prevents him going farther and several clues are given so that we can confirm the couple pursue equal aims but by means of a differnt path.
Nila´s comparison is very interesting, I do see Blanche as an executive as well, but I cannot agree with Alessandro since Blanche is already in the club,she is not a climber, I see it more as Nila she has to find money to earn he rliving!!! We cannot expect her to become a governess, that would be too much but she needs to marry and well, to keep up her standard of living.
Mr.Rochester is certainly in love with Jane but the internal fight is not the same as that of Mr. Darcy. In Darcy´s case he has to overcome social prejudice in Rochester´s moral, Darcy damages no one but himself if he marry Lizzy, Rochester.... continue reading
Next post here comes my comment: Paloma, Mr. Rochester is not considering his marriage with Blanche, I think he is playing around with her like a cat would with a mouse!!!! This is horrible, why should someone want to punish another,who, by the way hasn´t done anything to him???
I do not think he is trying to protect Jane, I think he is thinking and calculating his action, if action exist.
What do you mean, Alessandro when you say that she would get what she deserves?????? and what about men when you run after pretty teenagers, or Lolitas or little girls, which by the way some of your sex afterwars kill????? I refuse to take more criticism particularly one that comes from MEN because a poor woman with little means and hardly any education is trying to solve her life in the only way she cannnnn!!!! Girls I appeal to you!!!!!!! Why are we so hard on our sex????? It is Mr. Rochester that should receive a shower of criticism for playing like that woth more than one woman!!!!
Hello, again. You are all very busy enjoying Xmas dinners and having fun. I´m also enjoying Xmas dinners (at home) with my parents (playing poker and...losing,so I think of all of you and sigh...so while they are finishing, I´ve left the table(trying to lose weight) and have taken solace in our fantastic blog...Jack not understanding women doesn´t mean that you do not know lots...with your double..situation!!! thanks for admitting to something at least..upss have to go back to gambling i´ll continue as soon as possible
Mr. Rochester does as he pleases and it is high time someone within Thornfield stopped the Master and it is Jane that gets it. He is making me nervous by keeping showing himself as “victim” of his past even though it seems that it was his fault and nobody else’s. Therefore, I support Jane in her behaviour, so to say, she controlling her sentiments before Rochester. He will have to do something more than crying out his “suffering”, won’t he?
PART 1:
Chapter XXI is a very interesting one indeed. Obliged to set off from Thornfiled bound for Gateshead, Mr. Rochester begs Jane to remain, being rather vulgar (and pathetic) and showing us once more that nobody else but himself seems to have the right to be worried because of past life. Jane's sincerity and cleverness do not let this happen. Besides, she makes him promise something of the utmost importance: he will be forced to choose between herself her future wife.
I sincerely admire Jane. She´s a born surviver, not having any social experience, is bearing every situation with calm and very cautiously. She has fallen in love with a man who is a little bit "crazy", a joker, who moreover has a dark past. Do you imagine if Jane had said openly her feelings to the sybil?? How embarrasing! Were I her, I would have left myself stranded!
I´m going to read chapter XX and XXI on the bus, road to Soria...
Enjoy the night and be careful with cava!
For Jane, Grace Poole, MR. Rochester and the rest, And for ALL OF YOU
MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!!!!
(and careful with the drink)
Dear Daffodils, fifths B and C,
this is to wish you a very happy Xmas eve and Xmas day!!!! May your dinner be abundant and peaceful (something very difficult when the family is together!!!), so be very British and stick to two subjects "your health and the weather", this is precisely what I´m going to do and when I want to open my mouth it´ll be...to eat and/or drink!!!!!Nooooo, it´s a joke!! So I´ll say goodbye, very specially to Paloma who has been the only one, together with me to remember you all!!!!
With all my love and best wishes
After having dinner with Raphael and the rest of my family, they going to bed and I´m going to street, I have had a time to read you!!!!!!! So don´t say I don´t remember you! I WISH YOU ALL A MERRY CHRISTMAS!!
Part 2:
Jane is now forced to face former fears lived within Gateshead. However, circumstances have changed considerably and Jane feels confident and resolved to put her glooming past to an end. Scarcely are their cousins willing to admit that Jane has become quite a lady and old prejudices are obviously noticed by our protagonist even though she is no affected any longer for such nonsense. It is too common a feeling when we are obliged to deal with situations which affected us so much long time ago, nevertheless, by experiencing similar events again, you consider them unimportant, don’t you? Perhaps it is due to the fact that our world was reduced to that condition and everything else out of it did not seem to exist.
Part 3:
It is quite interesting how Jane portraits Eliza and Georgiana’s personality when meeting again. They being rather different to each other, you feel shame for both sisters, since they have become pathetic, those sort of people who prefer living in their own world to facing their burdens.
Part 4:
At length we find out what Mrs. Reed’s feelings towards Jane were, actually, and the reasons why she was unable to feel any affection for her niece, it being probably the first time in the novel that we are shown another perception of Jane’s behaviour than the one she keeps giving us. Despite her cruelty, Mrs. Reed might be right in some way when Jane’s “unnatural” disposition as a child is concerned.
It would be very interesting going back to compare Jane’s feelings on threatening her aunt with the latter’s, wouldn't it?
Hello! Is there anyone out there?
Mrs. Reed is bound for "the undiscover'd country from whose bourn no traveller returns" and nobody seems to feel grief for such a woman even though she bore a dreary condition in her last days as a mother. Do you think she deserved it? Jane does not.
Hello, I'm answering to the call in the barren blog (only for some hours I suppose). ;-)
I won't give a strong opinion 'cos I still haven't finished this chapter.
Nevertheless, no mother should be held responsible for the behaviour of a full grown-up son or daughter, although she may have had much influence in his/her upbringing.
I can hardly share Mrs. Reed way of rearing his firstborn, but I cannot condemn her for his suicide.
Happily we can read a good book in between big christmas meals. ;-)
Hi everyone!
I wish you all spent some peaceful days! I rather did... I only spoke of trivial things and it worked!
Joking apart, I have read your comments. Regarding Jane's visit to the Misses Reed, I can't help comparing it with my meetings with people from school whom I hadn't seen for a long time. And, no matter how much we changed, it seems to me we do feel practically the same as we felt then towards those people. I mean that it's frequent to keep playing the same role as we did in those relationships, don't you think?
Carmen, I agree with you in that we are too hard on our own sex.
By the way, I borrowed Laurence Olivier's Hamlet from the library it seems it received 4 Oscars!
I have also met with my class mates when studied at school and despite the fact that it was so funny and wonderful an experience, I think it better to have memories from the past than trying to go back to them again, for if you do it so, you might loose that idealized image your mind already had, reality being disappointing.
¡¡¡¡Alessandro te he visto en el telediario de Antena!!! ¿Conque comer fruta es lo mejor para los excesos eh?
Chapter XXII is beautiful and even funny despite Jane’s desolation because of circumstances and very much have I enjoyed it. The time she is forced to remain within Gateshead made me laugh for Misses being rather foolish, Jane must do her best to bear such companions as if she were kept in asylum unjustly (do you remember Laura Fairlie in The Woman in White?).
Coming back to Thornfield, Jane’s thoughts wander across the path of uncertainty since she longs for a home and it is Mr. Rochester’s state that she would wish it to be even though she knows it won’t. However, she makes up her mind that she must take good advantage of him while she can and, reached “home”, she is content by being so well treated by Adele and Mrs Fairfax though she’d prefer it if The Master were the one really satisfied with her returning.
I wonder whether Mr. Rochester deserves such a woman. So much does she love him that she acts as he pleases, unable as she is to show up her sentiments. Nevertheless, Jane will have her feelings under control no longer and will tell him two statements every man would be delight to hear from a woman
“A loving eye is all the charm needed: to such you are handsome enough”
“I am strangely glad to get back again to you, and wherever your are is my home-my only home”
My God! I miss visiting the blog some days and now I have to do a lot of catching up!! In Soria it is impossible to maintain the rythm! Chapter XXII Roberto?? Take a break please, you are leaving the rest a long way behind!! ;)
María, hurry up for I am nearly to post a comment related to chapter XXIII. ;-)
I'm sorry, but I've already finished the novel (today!), I couldn't help reading it to the end!
It's amazing and full of enlightened descriptions!
I'm sure you'll enjoy it.
Have a nice days and a new year plenty of good wills!
Enjoy these days you too, Natalia.
Well done! I already knew the whole story, for I listened to the recording last year and it has many things to tell yet.
Well, I must be the only one who doesn´t know how the novel is going to end!! Don´t tell please!
Some post above I wrote "loose" when I should have written lose.
Ey!!!
I don't know what's wrong, If it's the computer or it's me... Sometimes I can post other I can't...
Well as soon as I get you Roberto (jajaj I'm still in chapter XX)I'll post.
Hope you had a nice December Solstice!
In spite of having my house full of people; in spite of not having any spare time to think neither in English nor in Spanish; in spite of being physically and mentally exhausted: I’m glad to have known you; I’m glad you be my mates and teacher; I’m glad to share the blog with you.
I wish you all the best for not only for next year, but also for ever.
Happy New Year.
I share your feelings Paloma!
Happy New Year!
Hello mates, I am glad that the blog is alive even if the school is closed! In England they say An apple a day keeps the doctor away (and the late Winston Churchill added but an onion a day keeps everyone away) so we can say “A post a day keeps the blog alive”. I know it does not rhyme, but I cannot do anything better
Paloma, thank you for telling me about my Antena 3 appearance! I did not even know it was for the news. One girl and a camera man made me a few questions in the street. They asked me if I ate and drunk too much on 24 and 25, and what I had for breakfast on 26 to compensate and survive. I told them that since I am vegan I ate a lot but there were no corpses on my kitchen or desk, so no matter how much I eat I wake up the day after in good conditions, and had as everyday some fruits for breakfast. Back to Jane Eyre, why I am accused for saying that Blanche or Jane would get what they deserve? I never wrote that. I am very amused since after Mrs. Fairfax description, Jane writes “Blanche, a lady of rank” after knowing her, she thinks almost “Blanche, a bitch of rank. But it was she, not me, that wrote and thought that.
Hello mates, first of all, I want to wish everybody a "Happy New Year 2009" full of happiness and health and if it is possible full of marvellous things and a lot of English comments. My computer, my telephone and my wash-machine have been broken many days ¡It is exasperating! the computer and the telephone is alrigth now but the wash-machine not yet.
Paloma, as the English people said, "take it easy", I am sure you are a little bit stressed but anyway happy, aren't you?.
Carmen thank you for your comment about Xmas Day (very modern word) I wish the best for you and your family (kind regards to Marta).
Well, mates and teacher I miss you very much. Be careful with grapes. See you soon. Kisses for everybody. Mercedes Muñoz.
Hullo to you all. I´ve been unable to sit down here for some days, what with playing cards, and paying company and on top of it all I´ve been going regurlarly to our provincial Gstaad, Reinosa, with my daughter, which means getting up at 7.10 cold shower and i hour driving, then three hour wait (while daughter has lessons) and one hour drive back home... I think that the least has happened to me:I´m developping a slight..cold,not a full one so I have to be ready for cards in the afternoon with a 10 minute nap!!! Having said this the good news is I´ve been reading the balcony scene and some chapters of Jane Eyre (between slight bites of a rather simple potatoe omelette, you cannot sit in the cafe without spending some money!!)
Here is me again. I´m really angry because I´ve lost over an hour´s work on Jane Eyre which I hadd´nt saved!!!! So I´ll try to do it again.
Chapter 19 shows a fearsome Mr. Rochester, afraid of being exposed and rejected by everyone. Aren´t we all still afraid of this, why do we find it so hard to have our little secrets discovered? What effect do you think Jane´s words of support and utter devotion would have on him "I probably should know nothing of their ban; and if I did, I should care nothing about it"
Chapter 20 is really interesting, we see the unhappy Mason who has suffered an attack, even being bitten, by a mysterious "she" who is under the charge of Mr.
Rochester. Mason appears to be a weakling (Mr. Rochester fears!) and who is nevertheless capable of action; as he decides on his midnight adventure against the better advice of his friend, could he act against Rochester? The said adventure ends in a bloody cut and lots of whimpering and leaves the reader breatheless to discover more. However the story turns and we find a very communicative Rochester who strengthened by Jane´s support of the previous chapter boldens up to explain someone´s case, we feel it to be his, and ask Jane whether he does not have a right to "overlap an obstacle of custom..to be justified in daring the world´s opninion, in order to attach to him for ever this gentle, gracious,genial stranger..securing his own peace of mind and regeration"... Jane´s answer is quite good because she clearly sees that no reformation should depend on another person but oneself. It´s quite surprising that Jane is capable of answering correctly whenever religious or some such matters are concerned, because she gives the answers that she has acquired during her education, another matter is when she provides advice of her own as when she tells Mr. Rochester that if Mason can hurt him he should tell Mason "what you fear and show him how to avert the danger" which sentence obtains the adjective "simpleton" directed to her by her master!!At the end of this chapter we realize that Blanche Ingram is the person capable of reforming, or rather help his reformation and Jane becomes pale and works out a promise that she will be, together with Adele out of the house before his bride takes possesion of it. Do you really think that she is forcing him to choose, Roberto? I think that she has not thouhgt of herself as being a choice!
Paloma thanks for your kind wishes and we can also say that we are very glad to have met you!!! sharing this blog with you has been great!!!
Alessandro where has Charlotte Bronte written"a bitch of rank"? and reread your post and you´ll understand the comments. I should also read the bit about the "corpses" most of us are not vegetarian and I do not think we eat "corpses" we eat animals and there is nothing wrong with this.
Happy New Year my dears!!
Dear Daffodils, 5B and 5C,
HAPPY 2009!!!!! May it bring you health, fortune and love or better, since we are going to suffer such a crisis, I hope you are happy to be "contented", like Jane Eyre was at Lowood, and then in a couple of years you can be ready to "move on"!
with all my love
P.S. Going back to table and...drink, it´s better to start this New Year a little tipsy, it´s going to be hard!!!
New year´s first hour and I have just had the first argument!!
Enjoy the night!!!!!!!!!!!
Hello my dears,
HAPPY NEW YEAR!! I wish you follow your dreams, have faith in yourself and reach for the sky, aim for the stars no matter how high.
Jane, what a woman! She does not want luxuries, nor achieve social status; she only wants Mr. Rochester to love her as she is: JANE EYRE.
At last we find out that Mr. Rochester is vulnerable and both Mr. Mason and the third storey-room are obviously related to each other. The Master of Thornfield seems to be nearly overwhelmed by circumstances. He keeps quarrelling against something beyond our understanding (and Jane’s, too) and seems to be ruled by improvisation which, I dare say, will not preventing dreadful events’ happening.
Jane and Rochester´s relationship is full of ups and downs. Jane is bearing every change in Rochester´s behaviour with so calmness that it´s close to the saintliness. She has much staying power, which is admirable. Would you be willing to bear such situation?
Mrs Reed has the typical behaviour before death. She is not capable of feeling love for Jane, which is very credible she being a resentful, cold, deranged person; however she wants to have a clear conscience, but for the good of herself not for Jane´s. Firstly, Jane wanted to believe Mrs Reed was going to apologize, but when she realized her aunt hadn´t changed, Jane didn´t mind and was unable to shed a tear. Jane´s staying Gateshead is only the proof of her kidness, she feeling indifference towards her relatives.
I think Jane´s reaction is the usual one when it´s about family issues. We usually allow the worse treatment of our relatives but not in our “assumed friends” (I don´t mean good friends, but those who you think you know), for example. The former ones are given another chance (at least one more, though you are all your life far from them), you feel you have a duty; but if you has been a victim of an assumed friends´ betrayal, you break off for ever.
Roberto, I´m thinking of what you say about Jane´s quest for power or for being loved, or both, because that´s the subject we have to analyse in our next composition. And I think it is a very complicated matter, there having many things to notice. So, I disagree, Jane doesn´t want only to be loved, it is not enough, Jane not being a “simple” woman (though simpleton). What do you think?
mistake: there BEING many things..., not having.
Chapter 21
On the occasion of her visiting to Gateshead, Jane tries to obtain permission from Mr Rochester. She will need some money. She gets ten pounds. In addition, Jane says that, on grounds of his next marriage, and considering that Adele will go to school, she will not be needed there any longer and have to seek another situation. Mr Rochester gets a bit embarrassed; he asks Jane to give him back nine pounds because he has a use for it. “And so have I, sir”, putting her hands and her purse behind her. Mr Rochester asks her to give him five pounds. “Not five shillings, sir; not five pence”, answers Jane. A bit demoralized, Mr Rochester asks Jane to let him look at the cash. “No sir; you are not to be trusted.”
I have never heard Jane speak in such a way. Is it not a delicious passage?
Happy New Year!
What a disappointment! Oscar Wilde was right when saying “there are two tragedies in life one is not getting what one wants and the other is getting it”.
Carmen, I think Jane is saying it to herself, as a rhetorical question: “Or Miss Imgram or me”.
María, Jane has forgiven her aunt, comprehending she was not so good a child as we were told in the beginning of the novel and also because when grown up, you often look at things with another perspective. However, Mrs. Reed has resentment towards Jane, being unable to get rid of it. Somehow, I can understand such a feeling. Imagine yourself compelled to bear someone who is related to another person you really could not stand in the past. It doesn’t matter whether the former is kind, charming or marvellous; it will always bring you back bad memories or feelings from that person you hated so much.
Jane is able of answering properly due to her education in Lowood, BUT I also consider it as a natural talent of hers. For instance, remember how well did she manage to express herself against Mrs. Reed’s ill-treatment.
Yes Roberto, that´s what I said. Jane has forgiven her aunt, which shows her kidness. Whereas Mrs Reed only admits she made a mistake by hiding information to Jane, but she is not regretful as she keeps thinking of Jane to be an unbearable person, despite she only knew her in the childhood. Mrs Reed needn´t to be forgiven to rest in peace.
As for Jane´s departure, Luis, Rochester prolongs the goodbye and resists it, and then realizes that if he gives her more money than the salary, she could stay away three months instead of a week that he allows or even not come back... He behaves as a child! But the most important thing is that Jane won´t be dominated by Rochester. Well done!!
Happy New Year to you all!
I have to confess I haven't been reading much of Jane Eyre during these holidays, but yesterday I couldn't stop!
It's a pity Mrs Reed wasn't able to end in good terms with her. It seems she might be focusing all her bitterness(coming mostly from the indifference of her daughters) towards Jane, the only one at her side at that moment.
When reading that passage I couldn't avoid pitying Jane for having to bear Mrs Reed's desdain after her kind attempt to make it up... Thank goodness Jane is strong!
Despite the fact that the mystery of the third story keeps increasing, I think Mr. Rochester is turning less interesting the more you read, his childish and his roundabouts irritating me a little. Were Jane more experienced in life, don’t you think she would think it twice before falling in love with such a man?
Hi Elena! At least more people here. The blog was becoming boring, we are always the same people...
I am not sad by Jane, because she doesn´t love her aunt, but feels mere indifference. We have to divide the chapter in two halfs Elena. What do you prefer?
Roberto, you seem to be jelaus of Rochester!! ;) It doesn´t matter how much experience you have, you fall in love with one who you wouldn´t expect at all!! That´s our tragedy!
Bye bye, road to Soria again... :(
You are right María. I also meant that Jane is not able to do a comparasion, for Rochester is the only man she has met (deeply)so far.
Maria, may I take the first part of the 21st chapter, for instance?
Anyway, I don't think Jane can be indifferent to Mrs Reed's despise - In the end we all search to be loved, and Jane was looking for some kind of forgiveness there... But it's true that it's not so bad as if this ill-treatment came from someone she had loved.
As for Mr Rochester's behaviour, yes, Roberto, I agree it is quite childish - but I like this changing, it's quite funny coming from a character like his, and particularly when faced to such a serious woman as Jane can be! In that kind of relationship, it's clearly Mr Rochester that has to spice it up, don't you think?
Good Morning,
I have just opened my prestents and I've got an elegant pair of pyjamas and ALL 37 PRODUCTIONS FROM THE BBC TELEVISION SHAKESPEARE SERIES!!!
Roberto, there are no rules in love, indeed, it´s an inexplicable mystery which sometimes gets you nowhere, but, it´s hard to understand what´s going on your mind. But, in any case, I can´t say “No woman in her right mind would go out with a man like him”, first of all, because I am found of Mr. Rochester, second, because only Jane knows what is in her heart, and both complement each other. As Elena had defined it, Jane needs a man with this kind of “spicy”character.
Anyway, I don´t think Jane is a desesperate woman, it doesn´t matter how many men she could meet, sometimes it doesn´t need to make a comparison.On the contrary, she is very lucky, as we used to say “llegar y besar el santo”. How many man does she need to know?. Nowadays, you can spend your life looking for someone you want to spend the rest of your life with and you can´t find it.
Anyway, congratulations for your presents, I hope you could share them, I mean the BBC TV SERIES!!!.
Hi! I hope the Three Wise Men (is this ok?) had given you a lot of presents!
After some days without glancing at the blog (ok: it has been more than three weeks…), today I have realized many people already know the ending of the history. I hope no one spoil the group discussion! Well, as an old student, I mustn’t disturb your rhythm, it is only a suggestion; I am only a guess here(thank you for it).
Carmen: You are always on the point … of arguing about “women-men” relationship! Anyway, do you remember your warning about opinions which are said ‘into’ the class, after closing the classroom door? You always wanted to rouse people to express theirs opinions (real or imaginary opinions) freely, in order to boost the debate for practicing. I think the Blog could be taken as a classroom, on that sense: you can play the role that you wanted, doing it in a sensible and polite way, of course.
Suppose that some man has a double or triple (wow! Such a risked place…) situation, as you said. As I told you, on love matter women behaviour is unpredictable most of the times for a normal man (as I am), even if you are supposed (supposed!) with a great deal of experience on women issues. You can know lots about women, but I am sure you know never enough and you can be surprised. That is the reason for advising of taking care! (Am I joking?)
I would like now to connect with the novel after reading 20th chapter: I continue thinking Rochester is still evaluating his choices (he is a prudent man...). At the end of the chapter, he leads Jane on the verge of cherishing hope about being married with him … and after doing that, poor Jane had to be keen of supporting Rochester the night before he were married!! Such a bastard (or wit man…)!
Well, I am going to read 21th chapter… (I know, I am working on the book very slow...)
Excuse my mistakes, please!
Susana you are right though I believe Jane is at disadvantage, Mr. Rochester being quite older than she.
Carmen has mentioned the scene when Mr. Mason is injured by something/someone though I’d prefer it if we focus on Jane’s portrait of this odd character. She seems to have prejudices against such a man even though she has just met him and I wonder why she is suspicious and dislikes him so much. It might be because of his power over Mr. Rochester. We have been told the former may make him vulnerable, for Mr. Mason knows about Mr. Rochester’s past beyond a doubt. Why doesn’t Jane try to find out more about this person? Why nobody is able to foresee that something rather glooming is happening within Thornfield? There have been several “accidents” occurred in the third story ever since Jane was introduced as the new governess. So, scarcely do I believe Mr. Rochester should have managed so well in order to conceal the secret up to now.
Chapter XX and chapter XXI are pretty interesting. Mr. Mason’s presence seems to upset Mr. Rochester. It is not his presence that makes Mr. Rochester get nervous, but his relation with Grace Poole. Indeed, all ends in a disaster when Mr. Mason is hurt by the mysterious woman.
Then, after the incident. Jane and Mr. Rochester have a talk in which the latter explains shortly to Jane his own story. During his youth he committed “a capital error” (probably related with Grace Poole) whose consequences have been following him through his entire life. Then “after years of voluntary banishment”, he comes back and he finds all the good and the qualities he had been looking for, “without soil and without taint”. At this point, that reminds me of chapter XIV, when in a chatter between the two of them, Mr. Rochester declares to her: “I envy you your peace of mind, your clean conscience, your unpolluted memory. Little girl, a memory without blot or contamination must be an exquisite treasure…”. According to this, it seems to me that “the instrument for his cure” that he had been seeking for such a long time is Jane, but suddenly he starts to talk about his coming wedding with Miss Ingram. We all know that he does not love her and that he does have feelings for Jane, so why is he playing with Miss Ingram? What benefit could he obtain from her? Maybe he is using Miss Ingram like a bait to attract Jane and turn her jealous. Or perhaps he does not want to declare his feelings for Jane for fear to be rejected. Anyway, it is a sort of cruel strategy.
As for chapter XXI, we appreciate that Jane is still disowned by her family. Mrs. Reed has still a great feeling of hate for Jane. This feeling was partly provoked by her husband preference for Jane. Mr. Reed used to put Jane before his own children. That is horrible and very painful for a mother and it is that that gave rise to this hatred. By contrast, Jane’s posture is totally different from her childhood’s, it being much closer to Helen Burns’ way of thinking. At the end, she forgives Mrs. Reed and tries to be forgiven by her, failing in her attempt.
After reading the comment of Jaime’s, I have just recalled something we read last year in “The Woman in White” that might express why Jane’s attitude towards her aunt has changed since her leaving Gateshead. The context not being exactly the same, I hope you notice what I mean.
“When two members of a family or two intimate friends are separated, and one goes abroad and one remains at home, the return of the relative or friend who has been travelling always seems to place the relative or friend who has been staying at home at a painful disadvantage when the two first meet. The sudden encounter of the new thoughts and new habits eagerly gained in the one case, with the old thoughts and old habits passively preserved in the other, seems at first to part the sympathies of the most loving relatives and the fondest friends, and to set a sudden strangeness, unexpected by both and uncontrollable by both, between them on either side.”
Hi my dear mates! Finally the family is gone, the relatives are gone and the silence has returned to my house. I’m very envious of you because through the holidays you have been able to write, to read and to enter the blog, you have been very lucky. Anyway I can finally do my work and I’m reading the great number of post, after doing this work, I’ll write again, but first I wanted to say hello to you all.
Welcome back Paloma!
I’ll try to answer some of your posts. Carmen I agree with you when in yours of the 30th of December you say “I think that she has not thought of herself as being a choice!” I’ve always thought exactly the same. In this point Jane reminds me very much Maria in the Song of Music; she also doesn’t consider herself a choice in front of the Baroness.
I also agree with “our” Maria regarding the number of opportunities we give to our own family, you are absolutely right “We usually allow the worse treatment of our relatives but not in our “assumed friends””
Roberto you say: “his childish and his roundabouts irritating me a little” So does me!!! I don’t understand his game; I can bear his behaviour towards Jane. He knows she loves him, he loves her and, if, as Carmen says, he is not trying to protect her against the “third storey”, I don’t understand him. He is always doing the same, the moment he lowers his guard and shows a bit his true feelings towards Jane, he runs away or has what we call in Spanish “salida de pata de banco” (sorry I don’t know how to say this in English)
Jaime I’m very glad someone agrees with me. In my post of the 26th of November I wrote: “he falls in love with Jane, deciding she must be his “Reformation”” That is: the instrument for his cure you say. You also say “Maybe he is using Miss Ingram like a bait to attract Jane and turn her jealous" I have also been considering this fact but, does he need to do that? We agreed he knows Jane loves him, so, what sense has all this stupid game? I insist: I only understand Mr. Rochester if he is trying to protect Jane against something and is thinking to marry Miss Ingram to avoid marrying Jane. I think the marriage of Mr. Rochester could be harmful in some way and, whereas he doesn’t mind hurting Blanche, he doesn’t want to cause Jane any harm.
Roberto I’m astonished by your memory and your capacity of association. Thank you for your welcome.
Mr. Rochester wanted Jane to tell him openly “I do love you” and he got it.
The baroness in "The sound of music" said to Maria that there is nothing more irrestible to a man that a woman in love with him. And she ran away. She also reminds me of Jane!
As for Rochester´s behaviour, I think he is torturing Jane. He is a little bast***! (Sorry for being foul-mouthed, but it is the word which fits better whith Rochester, from my point of view).
The envy is said to be the greatest sin of the Spanish people, so I suppose we are all used to living with it, in spite of this fact I have never seen in literature or in real life such an enormous jealousy as the one Mrs. Reed felt for her sister in law; so big an envy which leads her not only to hatred, but also to want someone’s death, even more terrible: a child’s death. I can imagine something more wicked! From the very beginning I felt there was something poisoning her soul. I’ve always been in Jane’s side; I’ve always thought it was Mrs. Reed fault, and not Jane’s, that the relationship between them were so bad. Now I’m convinced. What she says about Jane is a lie. I don’t think she is lying on purpose, perhaps she believes what she says, but she has a distorted view of reality, she needs to have it to justify herself, but the cruel reality is that she hated the girl even before knowing her. No one in the world can grow happy and outgoing if the person in charge of you hates you. How can anyone expect Jane to be a different kind of girl in such conditions? “I wish she had died!”
Chapter 21
Jane gets to Gateshead. Her stay there will not be a piece of cake. To start with, her cousins’ welcome will make the narrator write: ”Young ladies have a remarkable way of letting you know that they think you a ‘quiz’ without actually saying the words. A certain superciliouness of look, coolness of manner, nonchalance of tone, express fully their sentiments on the point, without committing them by any positive rudeness in word or deed.” Nevertheless, Jane realizes rigth away they no longer have the power they used to have.
I have really enjoyed what is said within inverted commas .
I do not think Mrs. should be envious of her brother’s wife. Why do you think that Paloma? Jane had two misfortunes “to grunt and sweat under her weary life” as a child, the first of one being hated by her aunt and the second because of her indomitable character.
Luis, I also enjoyed a lot with Jane’s cousins. What a couple! So pathetic though so funny in their “disgrace”.
Envy and jealousy are synonymous in English. To be jealous of somebody is to envy something he/she has and you not (or you think you don’t have). Mrs. Reed herself tells us the story “I had disliked her mother always; for she was my husband’s only sister, and a great favourite with him”
Goodness me! What a great sin!
By the way I don’t think Jane had an indomitable character, I think he rebelled, which is not the same. Her aunt says in chapter 21th (which is very funny by the way): “You have a very bad disposition, and one to this day I feel it impossible to understand: HOW FOR NINE YEARS YOU COULD BE PATIENT AND QUIESCENT under any treatment, AND IN THE TENTH BREAK OUT ALL FIRE IN VIOLENCE, I can never comprehend” It’s a pity we cannot underline in the posts, this sentence is worth studying it in depth.
She is indomitable since there is no "controlling" her will.
Paloma, I believe it's not uncommon that people who are not used to rebelling but rather to "suffering in silence", explode with much more violence at some point. So long, I have seen several examples...
Elena, for my, the funny think in the quote is not that Jane explodes but that her aunt cannot understand it. Of course I agree with you, and that is what I was trying to explain to Roberto. I think you don’t need to have an indomitable character just to explode at some point.
In chapter XXI, in spite of the fact that she is battered during several years, Jane doesn´t feel bitter, on the contrary, one of her hopes is to be reconciled with her aunt, according to the book,“ I came back with no other emotion than a sort of ruth for her great sufferings, and a strong yearning to forget and forgive all injueries—to be reconciled and clasp hands in amity”. Once at Gateshead, she ignores her cousins´ rudeness, indifference and selfishness; she rationally observes: “ I had taken a journey of a hundred miles to see my aunt, and I must stay with her till she was better—or dead; as to her daugthers´ pride and folly, I must put it on one side; make myself independent of it”
When it seems that everything is going well, her aunt again rejected Jane, surprisingly, she talks to her aunt calmly and patiently, “Love me, then, or hate me, as you will”I said at last, “you have my full and free forgiveness: ask now for God´s and be at peace”. It is admirable how Jane reacts to this situation, probably, Jane´s forgiveness of Mrs.Reed exemplifies Helen´s advice to turn the other cheek.
To sum up, in this chapter, there may be a personal triumph a rebirth of hope, as Gandhi said so well, “The weak can not forgive. Forgiveness is an attribute of the strong”
Jane is not a child any more and, as a woman, comes back to Gateshead. Time, maturity and the fact that there was something else out of Gateshead have made our protagonist forget the injustices suffered there.
I keep thinking there is no controlling Jane’s will. Nevertheless, she has learnt how to team it. I mean, she won’t ever be submissive.
PLEASE, GO TO THE FILM CLUB!
Thank you.
Chapter 22
An exciting moment takes place when Jane is going up home from the stile, but suddenly she turns round and tells to Mr Rochester: “I am strangely glad to get back to you again; and wherever you are is my home-my only home.” Has she lost control? Is she being rebellious? Apart from these considerations, what is meant by “strangely glad?
I'm sorry. I made a mistake. I should have written: .. and tells Mr Rochester.
You are right Luis. At last Jane has opened her heart!,thus, Mr. Rochester has already the proof of Jane's being in love with him. So, it is high time he did the same and avoided his roundabouts.
THIS IS FOR MICHELLE (lest you does not read it on the film club):
Thank you very much for so beautiful a present. I really appreciate it, feeling content by looking at them while I write this lines.
:-)
Why do we, women, lose our self-respect when we are in love?? Are men like that too? I don´t know whether women like suffering, but we can´t help it.
Susan, I agree with you, we must be proud of Jane as she is of herself.
Folks, come on!, post comments about Jane Eyre if you don´t want Carmen to leave us! She is not here any more!!
Well, I think a woman as arrogant as Jane seems to be sometines, could "go back her words" and just tell him she was misunderstood.
I am sorry, but I can´t imagine a woman being as clear as Jane is in this chapter in spite of her decisive temperament.
Hi!
I'm preparing the first part of chapter XXI and I must say it has very amusing parts, which I think have been already commented in the blog. I like very much the conversation amongst Jane and Mr Rochester where he has so extravagant a behaviour. First, he asks her to give him back part of the money he gave her at first, being afraid she would stay away too long. Moreover, when having to bid her goodbye, he behaves in quite a playful manner, asking her to teach him to say farewell, to end up telling her that words seems quite stingy!! I have to say Mr Rochester is great! By the way, I also like very much when he does his grimaces. And then, Jane's thought, which was something like: "I wonder how long will he stay there with his back against the door, I want to commence packing!!" Very funny, indeed, don't you think?
Sorry, mistake: I wonder how long he will stay...
The rainbow has, for sure, more than seven colours, otherwise, it would be impossible everyone in the world sees things in a different colour. If I had to define Jane’s character, I would say anything but arrogant, however this is the word Ester uses to speak about her, do you see what I meant? This is the most amazing thing in life, what is true for you, what represent your truth, is different for other person and even more different for a third one, and, all of you are right. Truth has a lot of faces, can be seen under many different colours.
As you see I’m quite philosophical this morning, but reading your comments about the novel in our blog I’m realizing, more than ever, how different the mankind is. For me, things are extremely clear, absolutely evident… and then another person says something which is in absolute disagreement with what I thing and some others agree with he/she and others with me… Perhaps only Charlotte Bronte knew what she meant. Do you think she loved her heroin? I think so, and that’s why I always try to be with her… but, Am I wrong?
Why do you say, María, that women lose their self-respect when being in love? I don’t understand it and don’t see the link with the novel, for Jane keeps acting with dignity in my opinion.
Esther, I do not think Jane arrogant at all. On the contrary, she is herself: sincere and plain.
Elena, my perception of the scene is the opposite. I consider him to be a little bit vulgar because of the situation. Jane is to face difficulties and Rochester does not behave as he should unde such circumstances.
Roberto, you are quite belligerent today. As for the scene, when asking her who the sick woman is, Jane tells him how Mrs Reed cast her off. Thus it is not as if Mrs Reed was a very dear relation to her, in which case I would agree with you in that he shouldn't behave playfully. Anyway, without a Mr Rochester, Jane's life would be so boring... In that scene, he was clearly showing her he would miss her while being away. It was sweet!
I beg your pardon lest I have been sound rude. I did not do it on purpose. :-)
I agree with Elena. There not being a Rochester, Jane´s life would be unbearably empty! I also think that the scene of the "farewell" was very sweet, funny and enlightening (to Mr Rochester, now that he knows that Jane has relations). Why don´t you think like that Roberto? When Jane saying what Elena has written or "I have no change" (ahahaah) or her teaching how to say goodbye. It was a lovely moment!
When I said we lose our self-respect I was referring to the point when Jane says to Rochester that she will be near his bed, holding his hand, the day before his wedding. What woman in her right mind would do such a thing without being blindly in love??? None. That´s why we lose our "amour propre" and our dignity.
Paloma, the good thing in life is that we all are and think different. Don´t you think? Weren´t it so, it would be too much boring! So I ask you: why do you remark the arrogance in Jane before any other characteristic?? I think she behaves as an arrogant girl in the first conversation with Rochester, but I see many other characteristics in her before arrogance as the plot goes on.
Roberto, I wanted to tease you because I found it quite funny that you would not agree with any of us! And as Maria, I also believe it's necessary that we have a dissident everywhere.
Yesterday, I got surprised when finding out that Mr. Rochester is aware Jane has relations, and therefore circumstances might have changed lest he should decide to marry the governess. It being a important discovery, I must acknowledge having not noticed it until now.
María, I keep thinking the scene is not a very romantic one but rather childish. However, the way back to Thornfield from Gateshead is quiet romantic, ending up with a marvellous declaration of love: “Thank you, Mr. Rochester, for your great kindness. I am strangely glad to get back again to you: and wherever you are is my home—my only home.’
Paloma, in spite of the fact that I do not know Charlotte Bronte’s personal life, I guess she tried to portrait a woman based on herself and her experiences, giving to the character similar characteristics though involved in other situations, those ones she wanted to live, for instance, meeting a man like Rochester.
Roberto, in spite of the fact that Mr. Rochester has only recently discovered which family Jane belongs to, she has always been aware of this fact. Please don’t forget this. She still keeps treating him as she used to do it, even when engaged. I’ve always thought the main thing which made the difference between governesses and masters was money. In a world in which, as we so often see in Jane Austen’s works, people is considered according the money they have “ a year”, being poor and having to earn your own living was something that made a difference. Middle classes, let alone upper classes, usually didn’t do any work at that time. Only priests, military men and some kind of jurists belonged to the middle classes. Do you remember what the Bingley sisters said about Sir Lucas being a merchant before being a knight?
Regarding governesses we have two good examples in “Emma”: Mrs. Weston, maiden name Taylor, was the governess of Emma. She married well and now she is an equal of her. Another example is Miss Fairfax; she is another middle class girl, she share the same society as Emma, but her gran mother and aunt, the Bateses, have lost their fortune, Which is perceived as great misfortune, and Jane are going to become a governess. Those examples show, to me, as very often governesses belonged to the middle classes, what made the difference was, most of the time, money. And I have another more proof, I know you have already finished the novel, think in that: When is the only time we see Jane treating Mr. Rochester as an equal?
What a mistake:
...lest I have SOUNDED rude.
Sorry!!
Dear Paloma, money and properties are quite important but I also consider both “the name” of the family and its background essential so as to “belong to the club”. All these factor may be related to each other and you cannot have one without the other.
One more mistake:
...factorS may be...
Sorry again
And it makes more sense if I had written:
NEVERTHELESS, all these factors may be related to each other and you cannot have one without the other.
Of course, Roberto you are right. But, to what extent? Remember Elizabeth Bennet’s answer to Lady Catherine “In marrying your nephew, I should not consider myself as quitting that sphere. He is a gentleman; I am a gentleman’s daughter, so far we are equals.”
Sorry Roberto, what I've written is not what I meant: This is the right text: Of course Roberto, you are right. Family and background were important but, to what extent?
Hello mates, all your comments are very interesting altough sometimes I don't agree with them. Many of them always said that money is the most important thing to get marry but many classic english novels show us that sometimes money it is not the most important thing and many times love is really the most important thing. We all know cases in the real life where "love" can be overcome all the difficulties but I know that this fact is sometimes impossible. Well it is only my opinion. Jane and Mr. Rochester could reach all the happiness that they want because their fate is playing close them.
Regards.
Hi!
I am trying to write part of the composition but I'm quite stuck now, so I thought, let's wander around the blog.
I have to say that I have already finished the novel, but there are a lot of people who haven't. I believe it's a pity to reveal to them what is going to happen, so I think we should all be more careful with what we tell about next chapters, because by some comments, in the blog or at lessons we could sense some events... so please, let's be more careful about that.
Well, Jane Eyre has matured, she has become an adult, capable of forgiving her aunt despite her offence and childish suffering. Nevertheless, Mrs Reed does not regret having cast her off. On the contrary, she confirms her hatred to Jane, by making her know she has hiden a letter from an unknown rich uncle who wanted to get in touch with her and, for sure, would have made her very fortunate. Isn't it painful?
I´m very happy to see that the blog is alive again with the daffys and... one or two others! You´ll sure regret it next year when you are all graduates!! I have been unable to read the last posts today but I will and get back to you with some comments. This week I´m very busy in the evenings and on top of that I´m starting yet another course on compouters!!!!
What I want to say is something about the chaper we commented last monday. It seems to me that Jane shows some spirit when she asks Mr. Rochester to send Adele to school and says that she also hs to go. Human beings thrive in extreme situations and that must be one for Jane...it also shows that Jane is not very delicate where Miss Ingram is concerned, poor Blanche always get the short end of the stick and appears to be the baddy all the time. Jane can and throws the hint all the time...very femenine, don´t you think?
Gateshead...back to misery...to discover that those who had now have not, must give Jane some sort of power over her cousins "at least I know where I am, you are not even touching rock bottom" and, quite honestly, the future of the former dependant is brighter (Mr. Rochester is, however slightly, hovering around) than that of either of the sisters, don´t you think?
I have been unable to close the computer without reading some of the comments, and let me congratulate maría, Roberto, you are quite a professor now inter relating novels, fantastic! and Paloma, avery good long, fluent comment, indeed, Paloma. I´m very proud of you.
Jack, since we are going to keep this blog private to "boost opinion" don´t be so shy and give us your opinion as to why Mr. Rochester behaves so cruelly to Jane...you know a lot about women and have "some" experience in that field...or...don´t you? You did not get your nickname exactly for being a goody goody..or am I in the wrong...? have you reformed yourself?... I hope not!
Jaime, much better you seem to be getting on, perhaps by the end of the year you develop for novelreding and when you meet "juliet" you do all that is right...to do what you like with her! Sorry this is horrible, I should be on Juliet´s side!!!
Mr. Rochester...well i agree with Jaime/Paloma that there must be something in that third storey which prevents the master from proposing to Jane, he has some scrupples or else he wouldn´t ask Jane if it would be correct to take this opportunity that life gives him of reforming himself. It is either this or something slse that also makes Mr. Rochester quite insecure, don´t you think? At times he is quite childish and likes this cat/mouse play, Jane being the mouse which is quite fastidious from a lover´s point of view and certainly cruel.Do women like this cruelty? Do women like suffering? Do they find it thrilling? My opinion "yes" Any examples?
Now I´m going to bed, some reading and light out.. sleep tight!
Of course, he is scared of something beyond Jane’s knowledge (and ours), however, that does not prevent him from playing with our protagonist and I am not sure whether the latter enjoys with such a game, at least, in her condition.
Carmen, what do you women really expect from a man? I am puzzled.
:-)
Thank you Carmen, your kind words encourage me to improve and make my work easier and more rewarding.
Thank you very much Carmen for your good words. You know what they mean for us!!! And welcome again to the blog!!!
Roberto, how can you make us this question??? Though you only adress to Carmen, I´m going to give you "my answer". ;) Not always do we women know what we want in a man, but in case we know it (certainly we usually know it), we would never tell it! What women expect is that men behave as we want but without saying it to them previously, you know?? That´s the evidence of that "this one is my man", because he knows how to make me feel happy. Knowing, understanding and acting.
As you can see by reading Shakespeare, it is actually the best way of knowing women. I don´t know how, but for Shakespeare, women´s nature is a simple "rule of three", whereas for the rest of men we are more difficult than solving Kubik´s cube!
I would like to emphasize something, closely related to money is the question of class. Nevertheless, there are too many examples that proof that money does not give you class. Let me recall some of them, Beckan and Victoria Adams, Briatore and his wife, it´s getting better Paris Hilton, and so on..... So, money can´t buy the class, the good manners, the education, the culture.
Now, Mr. Rochester knows that Jane belongs to the Reed family, her mother´s brother is well known, Mr.Reed, the magistrate.Due to this, Jane is up to the same standard as Miss Ingram. So, now, Does it mean that Jane has the same opportunity for getting married with Mr.Rochester than Miss Ingram? in spite of that she is still “poor”. Let´s see his decision.
Thank you María, “you have solved my doubts”.
You are right Susana though I think money grants you at least the chance of joining the high society.
So far, we do not know whether Mr. Rochester is going to make up his mind to ask Jane to marry him or not. However, if it be so, do you think that, having discovered she has connections, he is at liberty to make her the offer? Or, would have he been preventing from doing it had Jane had no relations at all? I mean, if he says “ay” we won’t know if Jane was chosen not only for being herself but also for her new “social status”.
At this late stage of the novel do you really think there is something in social conventions (I mean, social class, connections, money &c.), able to prevent Mr. Rochester from marrying Jane? If so…think about what Romeo says in the Balcony Scene:
“With love’s light wings did I o’erperch these walls;
For stony limits cannot hold love out,
and what love can do, that dares love attempt”
"i am not pilot; yet, west thou as far
as that vast shore washed with the fartest sea,
I shouldadventure for such merchandise"
ESSAY:
Analyse the diffences and similarities between the Balcony Scene in "Romeo and Juliet" and chapter 23 in "Jane Eyre""
Roberto, I must confess you that I prefer to get that idea out of my head; I am fond of Mr. Rochester. But, if I find out that this is one the reason for getting married with Jane, please, switch off and let’s go.Let´s see what happens.
Well, Of course it will be easier now for Mr Rochester to marry Jane, but we can't forget she is still poor. Nevertheless, his love for Jane is a true love, difficult to perform so far because of social impediments, but could Mr. Rochester fight against his feelings? I think so. In that epoch, social conventionalisms would have prevent him from marrying to someone of low position. Wouldn't he?
Chapter 22
After her saying where her home is, Jane is not calm despite the fact that, for the next fortnight, not only has she been summoned by Mr Rochester more frequently than ever, but he has also been kinder to her than ever before. But, is it enough? Should not be expected a word from him? Is there something hidden that prevents him to act? What would he have to do lest he be in that ambiguous position any more?
I have been warned not to open any emails from whoever with "invitacion high 5" it´s avery agressive new virus!!!!! Should you receive it,even if the you the address of the person who sends it to you, DO NOT OPEN IT and CLOSE YOUR COMPUTER QUICKLY. warn all your contacts, this is the way it comes in!!
Raquel, have you read my last post? I think I give you my opinion about your question in it. What do you think? I believe Mr. Rochester much above social conveniences, is he not?
Luis I agree with you, I believe there is something preventing Mr. Rochester to act, but I don’t think it should be nothing related with social classes or money. When you see a film, every character which appears in it has its part, even if it is only for a moment in the beginning. I can’t forget Grace Poole, she has tried a murder. This fact is too important to be forgiven. There is too much mystery in the third storey so as not to play an important role in the plot. Don’t you think?
The third store:
Up to know, the “creature” there concealed has not interfered considerably in the story. However, its visits, with night’s cloak as an ally, keep increasing and It is Jane and nobody else, but Rochester, within Thornfield that seems to be the main object of them. I wonder why.
Maybe, the “creature” senses that there is something special between Jane and Mr.Rochester, and this confirms that Jane has achieved a true complicity with Mr.Rochester (well, more than that...), and not Miss Ingram, and it could be considered as a premonition.
Anyway, Roberto, I hope we are talking about the same “creature”.
I don´t understand you as for the creature is concerned... The third storey is yet a mistery for me...
Chapter XXIII is the most beautiful! Don´t you think? The atmosphere described, the orchard, the couple... We have to compare this with the scene balcony, but it has also reminded me of 'The nightgale and the rose' by Wilde. There is a nightgale singing there... the bird that embodies pure love..., but in this case, with a happy ending. I think there is also a poem (I have to look for it since I don´t remember where I read it) by Keat that speaks about a this marvellous bird
balcony scene, I wanted to mean
Yes María, it is quite lovely indeed. The time Jane is not able to control her sentiments any longer, under so glooming a fate waiting for her, is dramatically exquisite. Nevertheless, the indirect declaration of love made by our protagonist is the climax of the chapter in my opinion:
…
“It is a long way off, sir.”
“No matter – a girl of your sense will not object o the voyage or the distance.”
“Not the voyage, but the distance: and then the sea is a barrier-“
“From what, Jane?”
“From England and from Thornfield: and-“
“Well?”
“FROM YOU, SIR.”
By the way, Rochester keeps being cruel towards poor Jane till he gets “one more” proof of her love even though she is obviously suffering with so insensitive a master.
The chapter XXIII is very passionate, but Mr Rochester , what does he attempt? Is he playing with Love? Does he love Jane? Yes, at least that looks, but firstly Jane declares her love and when the environment is favourable, then he says to her how much he loves her. How is Mr Rochester going to resolve the wedding? He has a hard face, he wants everything. Well, We´ll have to hope in order to see that happens
Roberto and Margarita, this time I agree with you regarding Mr Rochester in that chapter... he's being rather cruel, kind of teasing her... In fact, we can feel her anguish when she thinks she is going to be so far from him. It seems he believes to have the winning cards...
Sorry, "he seems to believe"...
I really don’t understand this declaration. I really don’t understand Mr. Rochester. Perhaps Carmen may explain us what and why he is acting like this. Mr.Rochester's behavior exceeds me.
Roberto, could you explain this issue to me? You are a man, maybe you can get this way of acting. Can any other man explain it to me? If so, please do it.
Dear Paloma, I guess I would not do the same since I am quite serious when these business are concerned. Besides, being the second time Jane expresses indirectly her love towards the Master of Thornfield, he already knows about her governess’ feelings and therefore does not need pretending and so provoking such a desperate confession (“...away…From you sir”).
Hi,folks, back from a long week-end, hunting, a still hunt, montería, in Jaen. I was thinking about the effect of "grounds"-money on Commoners like Jane:devastating
Yes, Roberto, I agree he don’t need such a desperate confession of her, then, why is he playing this harmful game? What is he in search of?
However, could it be possible he is not playing at all? I mean, obviously there is something wrong in this engagement, Mr. Rochester asks for forgiveness after arranging it, and, perhaps he is trying to deceive Jane so that he could get off her and in spite of all his attempts he is finally overcome by her confession and his own love and tells Jane his true feelings. This should be much more romantic, don’t you think?
This is the 600th comment.
What a score!
Forced to leave today’s class bound for my job, I could not defend Jane’s declaration given to Mr. Rochester just arrived at Thornfield. I do not think it either dishonest or improper for a woman addressing in such a way to a man, at all. We have to set the statement into the context of the situation. Let us analyze Jane’s condition:
Imagine yourself bearing a lonely existence and, while going back from a glooming “mission” to the only place you consider as your home, you are conscious enough so as to acknowledge it is just a fancy of yours, for nobody there “cares” for you, so to say, you are nothing to them. Besides, the person you love will never be yours because there is an abyss between both of you: another woman. Therefore, Jane is at least content “in her way”: teaching Adele and living in the very same place as the man she loves and everything else does not matter. Thus, when she says such a sentence I believe she does it as a natural flow of sentiments, AT LAST being herself towards Mr. Rochester, with no shelter protecting her feelings, for there is nothing to be afraid of any longer.
SSsssssssssorry, I thought we had already reached the 600th comment, but it is obvious that we have not.
My apologizes.
According to you all, I agree that Rochester´s purpose was a little bit strange. Firstly, by saying "you must go" to Ireland, where he would never go. And finally, by asking Jane´s hand. I don´t think any man could explain us why he acted in that way, Mr Rochester behaving strangely in every moment of the novel. Do you??
On the other hand, Jane must be exhausted. She´s feeling many different things in a few instants, which is so much exhausting!!
As for Jane´s declaration to Mr. Rochester, I think she was taking her last chance to get Rochester. By doing it, Jane is contradicting herself. Were Jane really convinced, as she says, there was no possibility with Rochester, she would never utter a word toward him, it being useless and a waste of time. In case it were as Roberto suggests, Jane would be the sort of women who can´t help expressing themselves, giving their opinion and putting their foot in it. What does anyone care?? I don´t think Jane belongs to that group, so she does it with a clear intention fo getting something, in this case, Mr. Rochester. It would be a suicide (if the man knows the woman´s feelings, does what he want with the woman) to any woman, but to Jane, it has worked out, good for her.
mistake: what he wantS
Yesterday afternoon I was too tired to do any work, so I decided to sit in front of my TV. and watch films. I saw two very interesting ones. The first of them was about an English dentist living in Manhattan. Te man behaves in a nasty way with everybody…..Its title is “Ghost town”
Coming home from the School, I’ve remembered the second one: “An unexpected husband”, because something very similar to what happen in this film has taken place this afternoon in my class.
There is a doctor, a woman, I think she is a psychologist but I don’t know, maybe she is a psychiatrics. She speaks on the radio, and gives advice about love. “Real love” she calls it. She even has written a book on the subject. But, does she get always what she’s trying?
Carmen has remembered me this film. She was in front of us talking about “real love” as well, and she has also spoken about writing a book with all he knows about men, women and love. Both situations are quite similar because both, Carmen and the character are successful women, self-confident, with a great audience and… important business men in love with them (Colin Firth is the fiancé of the doctor in the film).
Do you want to know what happen? See the film.
I really sorry, I've madea mistake with the title of the film:"The accidental husband"
Oh my God! After telling you to see the film I’ve been reading the reviews in internet. Please don’t watch this film, I don’t want to be killed!! You can find the synopsis and the reviews in this page: www.firth.com/acc.html - 25k
I’ve seen other different pages speaking about this film, the reviews are not so devastating as they are in this page, but I still don’t dare to recommend it.
I've posted this comment here, instead in the film club, because it has been here where I've told you to see the film to know what happens.
I am sorry María but I disagree with you. Of course Jane is not that sort of woman, however, she expresses merely her real sentiments as a deliverance from impotence. The reality being completely different, she comes back to the place she considers as her home to stay “by the side” the person she loves. Oddly as her condition is, she is content and therefore she declares it openly. Is there something wrong in such an attitude?
Roberto, you could be right if Jane shouldn´t leave Thornfield. But she had, so she wasn´t content, so she acted deliberately.
I think I can add very little to the interesting observations my classmates posted since my computer exploded separating me from the cyberspace. Also, since I already finished the novel, is very difficult for me to comment anything without being very influenced from the following chapters that I supposedly have still not read. What I can post is a very personal comment: I definitively love this novel. And I definitively hate Mr. Rochester. Since I am a man sexually interested in women I hope noody misunderstand my affirmation. Why Mr . Rochester being in a position of power upon Jane have to play with her like a mouse-sparrow? Does Jane, or any other woman in the world, deserve to be treated in such way from a man who supposedly loves her. He has her literally and simbolically eating from his hands: what is the point in making her believe that he is inlove and will marry Miss Ingram? Do really women like to be fooled this way? It is not really cruel, sadic and irresponsible his behaviour?
Alessandro, I’ve been asking myself the same questions for ages. Have you read my previous comment and the questions I ask you as men? Why a writer as Charlotte Bronte would like to make her hero so miserable? I really don’t understand. When he allowed the Ingrams ill-treat her,I asked a similar question: “Does Jane, or any other woman in the world, deserve to be treated in such way from a man who supposedly loves her”
I think your comment under R & J superb. Congratulations.
Well, If you miss ine day you cannot catch up with all the comments. I´ll try to mention those i remember: Jane is arrogant in a quiet sort of way, this arrogance is blended with certain stubborness,and this enables her to keep resolute on the face of certain situations.
Money is not the only issue that would prevent a marriage between them class as well. This is why the author is forced to place her in a good family but makes her an orphan, she would not be accepted in society, or when she had children, otherwise. Paloma this is not your first novel in English and please do not insist on money being the only thing. last year we saw that Sir Percival´s parents did not mix with their neighbours and why are Darcy and Lizzy married? Remember her words to Lady Catherine?
Jane´s words to Mr.Rochester, although very well explained by Roberto, show that Jane, too,is not conventional, what she wants she gets, in this sense I would support that hers is a quest for power.
The discussion of chapter 23 is..tomorrow´s
Night night
I´ve watched Mr. Obama´s inaugural speech, we have a great orator here, listen to it it´s great it gives you the sense that..we can, it´s so honest, so thought out, so mature, so adequate, quite poetical conveys feeling, great.
Paloma: I am glad you liked my post in R&J. I really think that well taught good literature would influence positively the behaviour of young people than other specifically designed matters. But very often there are "projects" to put aside literature favouring more "practical" studies. Can exist something more "practical" or "educational" than making people think? I also like very much your posts, but I have to admit that I am not able to read them all because you contribute very much to the blog. Concerning my hated Mr. Rochester, I think that C.Bronte do not wish to make a hero of him, he is just a character in a novel, a satellite around the true heroine. The interest of good novels is that they show us people that are both equal to and different from us, so we can share different lives in completely different surrondings. Of course no character in this novel could be an idol or a model to follow for us. I already finished the novel and I could not find in it anybody with whom I would like to drink occasionally a beer.
I really sorry Carmen but I don’t really understand what you say to me in your last post.
I’ve never said class wasn’t important, what I’ve said is that most of governesses belonged to the middle classes and so, very often, to the same social class as their masters, being the fact that a governess had to support herself (because her lack of money), that made the difference in such cases. As an example I spoke about Miss Fairfax and Miss Taylor in Emma. I’ve also said that in spite of the fact that Mr. Rochester didn’t know Jane had connections, she did, but she keeps treating him as a master, never as an equal, even after their engagement; and I asked Roberto to think about Jane treating Mr. Rochester as her equal.
Regarding Sir Percival’s parents, I think, if I am not mistaken, they remained “hidden” because they weren’t really married, do they not?
And for Elizabeth and Darcy marrying to each other I’ve always thought that the reason why they marry is they love each other and Mr. Darcy does not care Elizabeth being “ without family, connections or fortune”, although this is important for Lady Catherine:
“True you are a gentleman’s daughter. But who was your mother? Who are your uncles and aunts?”
“Whatever my connections may be”, said Elizabeth, “if your nephew does not object to them, they can be nothing to you”
I also spoke about Elizabeth’s answer to Lady Catherine in my second comment addressed to Roberto posted on the 13th, answering his telling me that the “name” of the family and its background were essential to belong to the “club”:
“Of course, Roberto you are right. But, to what extent? Remember Elizabeth Bennet’s answer to Lady Catherine “In marrying your nephew, I should not consider myself as quitting that sphere. He is a gentleman; I am a gentleman’s daughter, so far we are equals.”
The latest comments are quite interesting, every of us defending strongly our own perspective.
There has been something Carmen has told us today, the meaning of which apparently unimportant as it is, my mind has made up a new perception of this oddly “balcony scene”:
"Mrs. Dionysius O’Gall of Bitternutt Lodge, Connaught, Ireland."
It is this statement that shows us Rochester is completely decided to be cruel towards his governess from the beginning or is it all because he needs one more proof of Jane’s love for him? Quite interesting. I need to check the chapter again.
Let us now focus on Jane and her “quest for power”. Could she be acting in such a way due to her wishes to achieve what she wanted ever since she met Rochester? Who is really Jane Eyre? The plain, sincere and “poor” woman? Or the stubborn, envious and “haughty” one?
I am puzzled! I need to think about the issue.
As Jane, I hadn´t either realized the place Mr Rochester was sending Jane (How it was? Angustias Profundas at Villa Ácida?? ahahaha). Actually, in this chapter there are many things to notice... But what I have clear is that Mr Rochester is insecure, I think, for the first time.
María, I think Mr.Rochester is insecure all the time, men that act like him usually are.
Paloma, you are still trying to prove that "caste" is not so important, well I can´t be bothered to reread all your posts again, but you´ve said it and are still saying, and producing examples of cases where family was overlooked. Lizzy´s connections are not so elegant but her father is the richest and most relevant person in their community. The governess in Emma marries one of the community, but he is not Mr. Knighteley,is he? Mporeover we are told that his son cannot marry anyone or risks being disinherited and what about the priest? Why doesn´t he marry Emma´s friend? because she was the bastard daughter of a gentleman. As to Sir Felix Glyde, everyone thought that they were married,but they didi not go out and about because he was probably ashamed of her, she not being a lady. I hope I HAVE MADE MY POINT CLEAR now and today when I read Jane´s quote.
Tomorrow I´ll answer you Roberto, you have some mettle in your brain, and Alessandro I would have a drink with Mr. Rochester, for sure and would not miss a cocktail with the Ingrams, Jane... not at the moment, I would not be able to refrain from giving her a piece of my 21st century mind!
Well, perhaps I should have written "He shows his insecurity for the first time", since I wouldn´t have believed such a characteristic in him before reading chapter XXIII. Now you can say that insecurity has taken part in Rochester´s nature from the beginning of the novel, though without having shown it so explicitly. So, does it mean that if you see a man who appears to have self-confidence, strengh, mystery, power, wealth, capacity of giving security, is only an appearance?? Were all of these abilities, that had made Jane look up to him, a veil used for concealing his insecurity?? It´s really sad and dissappointing, isn´t it?
As to Jane, she likes Rochester´s cruelty because she loves him. That´s what I referred to when I said women lose their self-respect when they are in love, for bearing such a mistreatment only from their beloved man.
But, Roberto, not everything is white or black. In my opinion, not only is Jane haughty or stubborn, but also sincere, sensitive and good. Her quest for power is not negative, on the contrary, it means that she has hope of winning, whatever, which gives a sense to her life.
Carmen, I would also go and have a drink with Mr Rochester, undoubtedly! He is charming, though sometimes also charmingly cruel, as we commented today.
As for Mr Rochester's insecurity, as I said in class, I think it has very much to do with his thinking that God is not by his side. By his comments in Chapter XXIII, he seems to have lost faith. That is more than insecurity - and I shall say more: that is not insecurity at all - vulnerability maybe. He seems to believe in himself - but he does not have confidence in what life may bring to him.
Anyway, I can't help remembering what a friend told me once: how much more attractive an insecure gesture makes a self-confident man...
Roberto, about Jane, I believe in Chapter 23, she is totally the first type you mention: a plain vulnerable woman - that's what love has made of her. But luckily, she has not been that woman throughout all the novel.
You have a message in the Film Club (My blueberry nights). Help us to make the club survive, please!!!
• I find it very difficult to add something about chapter 23 and I prefer to wait for chapter 24, may reading again The vampire by Polidori or even better Carmilla by Sheridan Le Fanu. Carmen, I understand that you would have a drink with Mr. Rochester. I would also have one with him, mostly for business purposes, since am a musician and he sings and plays rather well, and has a lot of money that does not bother anybody. I already attended many cocktails with many Miss and Mrs Ingram, elder and younger, most of them with a ticket for breakfast included, and I think I had enough. Most people I spend my time with today, and specially women, have something more between their ears and between their lungs. They are not so self complaining as Mr. Rochester, nor so cruel, nor as empty and interested as the Ingrams. Actually I would enjoy more a sunset and a sunrise with somebody earnest as Jane, no matter how boring she can look at first sight.
Mr. Rochester is insecure because of his past, the consequences of which have made him unworthy of achieving a new chance. He gets “VERTIGO” - - > allusion to the film club ;-)
On the contrary, Jane is brave and does her best so as to get what she wants and I dare say it might be interesting to quote Mr. Wilde: “There are two tragedies in life: one is not getting what one wants and the other is getting it”
Let’s see
Roberto, I think Jane is not as poor as we think. Ok she´s had a difficult beginning, but this often proves that the people in this cases survive and come out of the situation stronger. This difficulties have also given Jane a certain power over others, and also her rightiousness, it is the same as when you meet those stuborn misionaries, Mother Theresa,etc. Somehow their incapacity of making mistakes gives them strenth, quite the opposite to Mr.Rochester his incapacity of not making mistakes makes him insecure and vulnurable
This is very important: There are news from the fifths and their fight for the title, you have to now spend money on a lawyer to go to court. Maria Conde, a lawyer, will help with the case and explain everything. YOU HAVE TO CONTACT HER through e-mail:
maria.conde@tcu.es
Roberto,a very good quote of Wilde´s. María your analysis of Jane is quite good, of course Jane is basically good, but my God she is also bitchy in her comments about poor Miss Ingram, she quite terrifies me because she can be so cold, so clearly straight, no condescension for others, even if those others are mistaken, remember, most of us are not infallable!!
Alessandro, you are very lucky in your current group of friends, I´m very glad to say that mine are not so correct they are quite imperfect, I supose like myself!! however i´ve always been wary of the perfect, you suddenly find them out... It has happened to me so often, particularly, in the ranks of those who appear to be politically correct...
Now i would like you to visit and post more in the film blog, let me tell you it´s absolutely AMAZING, I´m very sorry I do not post more but I go very little to the cinema, so sorry, and what´s more i like it very much, I do enjoy seeing films. Please make the effort
I do not know if it is the right blog to post this, but I was very happy when following Carmen‘s advice I saw Mr. Obama “coronation”. I saw something I missed listening at it in the radio. I shall tell before that at the end of the seventies of the twentieth century I was member of a rather good symphonic orchestra (by the way, the one that is today conducted and touring around the world with the brilliant conductor Gustavo Dudamel and the same that was awarded last year with the Premio Príncipe de Asturias para las Artes). One week it was scheduled a Mozart piano concert. The little lady that came to the rehearsal could hardly reach the pedal of the grand piano with her feet. She played great. Both orchestra and public were impressed by this child that was almost as young as Wolfgang Amadeus when he was astonishing eighteen century Wien. Was she six, seven o eight years old? I can’t remember. Now she is a superb pianist, a thirty eight years old wonderful woman, has two beautiful daughters, and was chosen to play in the quartet that performed with Yo Yo Ma and friends for Obama. So thank you for suggesting us to look the act allowing me to remember a moment with Gabriela Montero. I hope Mr. Emilio’s wife Paloma O’Shea brings her here for a concert someday.
Carmen, I am sure your friends and you are more perfect than mine and me. The point is that I feel I was lucky enough in the past travelling a lot with my job as musician, musicologist and researcher, and I met lost of interesting and wonderful people, so now I enjoy more collecting food for the Saharawi (there is a truck leaving on next Tuesday, if anybody is interested) or looking in the woods for greyhounds hanged typewriting by some nice “galguero”, instead of going to cocktails with Mrs. Ingrams, that I repeat I already enjoyed many times. But this is just a matter of personal choice and taste in the moment.
Sorry, I mean
and I met A LOT of interesting and wonderful people
Just a question: In chapter XXIII, page 253, my beloved Mr. Rochester says that he intentionally caused a rumour in order to make the Ingrams believe that his fortune was less than a third of what was supposed, in order to know the truth about Blanche’s love. What had he done if Miss Ingram thought this les than a third was enough money to be worth marrying him? He would marry her and try to make Jane his lover? I insist that Mr. Rochester can be an interesting man with whom to spend a night or may be two, but no more than that. But of course, if one think about the real amount of his fortune, he could turn more interesting.
WE HAVE A CONTEST ON THE FILM CLUB!!!
"2008 USA Elections - Speeches", it is the thread that you can post comments about Obama. At least, I´ve done it there...
Have you read that the second time Obama sworn, he has done it without the Bible? Third time lucky... I hope those mistakes don´t mark a doom, as Ms. Fairfax´s face in 'Jane Eyre'...
Thnaks to you Maria, Usa elections' thread is still alive. I've also posted something there.
Jane was brave and impudent because she didn´t know how he could react with her words and her attitude. Her attitude was not very correct but the Mr. Rochester´s attitude is worse. Birds of a feather flock together (God grows them and they meet). On the other hand, Jane expressed what she felt and before with her attitude she has got her purpose. I think that the attitude of Mr. Rochester is much more deplorable than the Jane´ attitude. If we had tojudge the actuation of both, the worst is the behaviour of him. Mr Rochester isn´t insecure, is a coward. I hope that in the next chapters will have a explanation.
The previous anonymus is me, Margarita 5ºc
Carmen, thank you though it was you that firstly mentioned the quote in class. You are right, so sincere is Jane that she does not realize how “bitterly” her appreciations are.
Alessandro I did not know you were member of an orchestra. I’m impressed. What instrument did you play?
I guess “the rumour” was only an excuse so that he might get rid of Miss Ingram without being rude.
Margarita, I agree with you; for Jane keeps acting sincerely, unable to see that she is also cruel sometimes with her comments, however, Mr. Rochester does it on purpose.
Chapter 24
Jane enters Mrs Fairfax’s parlour. She and Mrs Fairfax talk about what Mr Rochester has just said to the old lady. This scene reminds me of a film, “Rebecca”, and I have enjoyed it, but Mrs Fairfaix is more rude than her peer in the film. She tells Jane: “Is it really for love he is going to marry you?” she asks. Jane is so hurt by these words that tears will rise to her eyes
Sorry,another mistake. She tells Jane... must not be considered.
"For a little while you will perhaps be as you are now,--a very
little while; and then you will turn cool; and then you will be
capricious; and then you will be stern, and I shall have much ado to
please you: but when you get well used to me, you will perhaps like
me again,--LIKE me, I say, not LOVE me. I suppose your love will
effervesce in six months, or less. I have observed in books written by men, that period assigned as the farthest to which a husband's ardour extends. Yet, after all, as a friend and companion, I hope
never to become quite distasteful to my dear master."
At last, The Bandit seems to be right about the inexistance of longing love! And young Jane also knows it!
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