6 de octubre de 2008
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Wilkie Collins
Quiénes somos
- EOIGoya_Inglés
- El Departamento de Inglés de a Escuela Oficial de Idiomas (EOI) "Goya" se suma con este proyecto de blog, con el blog de teatro y con su página de vídeos en YouTube a la explotación de las nuevas tecnologías como parte de la enseñanza de idiomas en la enseñanza pública en Madrid. Un cálido agradecimiento a CMF, sin cuya colaboración esto no sería posible.
Concurso 2007-08
855 comentarios:
«El más antiguo ‹Más antiguo 601 – 800 de 855 Más reciente› El más reciente»Alessandro, I respect what everybody does, "provided it is right", but there seems to me that lots of valuable, kind people are doing lots of work for people in Africa, Asia, etc. and animals and there are lots of people her in need, the disadvantaged, the elderly,the poor, who few bother with...
Yes,Roberto, Jane is sincere, and certainly her behaviour is a lot better than Mr. Rochester´s because she does not wish to hurt anyone, but it is still surprisisng that she can be so independent, and so blunt; I think that this is what annoyed Aunt Reed so much and I must confess it annoys me too, though I also feel some respect because she can do what others have not been able to do for years: speak out and loud!! Mrs Fairfax is certainly nasty, but this is because for her it would be difficult to see what such a man as Mr.Rochester would have to do with the governess, who brings NOTHING to the union, you know she doesn´t know him so well and we´ve said, or at least I´ve said a hundred times that that sort of marriage was unthinkable then.
There is an article in Sunday´s "El Diario Montañes" (cultura) of an interview to Mr. Pombo, some of the people he mentions you know...
Roberto: now your comment about the 600 post in this blog has become true! I am not anymore member of any orchestra.I studied french horn (trompa) and played professionally some ten years. I also specialized in early baroque and renaissance music and learnt to play different instruments from that periods. But now I do not perform anymore professionally: I earn my living with another connected profession, I am a band instrument repair technician, brass instruments being my speciality (trumpets, trombones, horns and tubas).
How interesting Alessandro though it is a pity you play no longer. I studied violin for two years some time ago but I was forced to give it up because of my first passion, English! :-) I will probably ask you about the baroque period, for I am quite interested in classical music even though my knowledge is rather plain. Bach is the master, isn’t he? Solfa is also an amazing subject to learn.
Mrs. Fairfax is unpleasant because Jane’s condition is beyond her understanding as a woman living in such an epoch. On the other hand, I think she grants Jane some important and practical hints so as to avoid awkward situations lest the governess should meet the Master too “outgoing”
In chapter 24, Mrs.Fairfax congratulates Janes weakly and it seems that she warns her about men and marriages between unequal parties.Perhaps, Mrs. Fairfax is jealous of her success as governess.Indeed,in Brontë´s time, it would have been scandalous for a gentleman to marry his governess.It´s very exciting to break any rules, isn´t it?
Yes, it is indeed very exciting, Susana... But it's a real downer when, after breaking them, you find that in your case it would have been better if you hadn't (But let's stay optimistic!).
By the bye, I find chapter 24 really interesting and Mr Rochester's attitude extremely funny, (when calling Jane an elf, for instance) and Jane especially witty and sharp. I couldn't stop smiling and highlighting sentences throughout all the chapter. I like very much Jane's attitude in the chapter, and I am sure I would feel the same in front of Mr Rochester's excessive flattering comments.
Don´t you think Mr. Rochester behaves as usually women do? I mean, it is women that usually think so much: cunning, creating tactics and wanting to get married. In chapter XXIII he is the woman and Jane the man. (I could be mistaken because I´ve reached this opinion after thinking about the comparison with R&J, and I might have gone mad).
I think that chapter 24 is certainly a good one and it brings some surprises which whn you come to thinking about them are not so, I´ll explain myself: There are very few women who would refuse being pampered by their lovers and showered with jewels and a new, expensive wardrobe, but when you think of it how does a woman like Jane feel when these luxuries are sown around her? like a prostitute, like celine? indeed this is, if you think about it what men do to those women, then it becomes offensive. Second best is that Jane would not know what to do with them, how to wear them and carry them off, do you understand what I mean, she would look ridiculous and that is why she refuses them.
What about himmmmm? He treats her exactly like in "Pygmalion", men love to show, give, escort round Europe, I was reminded of what my cousin o.e. said to my sister: "las tias sois idiotas, porque no sacais nada a los tios y lo que no les sacais se lo gastan luego en el Piggy"....(!!!)
Chapter 24th shows the importance of the education we receive as children. And, in addition, proves to be certain the “Teoría de las sillas”. I make myself clear: imagine you go to the theatre to see a play you have been eager to see for a long time, and the entrance is free. You go very early and take a chair in the first row, waiting there for a long time. In the last minute a person arrives and tells you: I’m more important than you, so you must leave that chair for me and seat yourself somewhere else. What would you have said?
The ideas you seat in child’s mind chairs while his childhood are very difficult to be lifted and replaced for new ones.
Undoubtedly, Mr. Brocklerhurst achieved his goal. Do you remember what he said in chapter 7th? “My mission is to teach them to clothe themselves with shamefacedness and sobriety, not with braided hair and costly apparel”
Oh My God! I’m afraid I’ve made again the same mistake I made in my last composition and which Carmen put in very obvious red colour. “proves to be certain the “Teoría de las sillas”
Sorry, I think the right form is: “proves the “teoria de las sillas” to be certain” or “proves that is certain the “teoria de las sillas”
late chapter 24
Jane settles the rules for the month ahead, and Mr Rochester gives up. “It is your time now,little tyrant, but it will be mine presently.” Really?
Sincerely, I don´t see what you mean Paloma.
Why does Rochester like to show Jane, if she is a governess? Does he want to change Jane? Or worse, would he like to change Jane? Look Mrs. Fairfax´s reaction, who represents the rest of the society...
I think Mr. Rochester is flattering Jane for his own interest. He is really worried having been left always by women, so he treats Jane so "well" so that Jane remains. But the result is that Jane refuses every kind of flattering (very clever, flattering too much is very dangerous) or every empty gift (jewels, exquisite clothes...). She prefers a song...
Mr. Rochester is a little bit lost, he might have many other women, as he is boasting about his looong experience, but he actually doesn´t know how to treat Jane. So, does he really know her???
However, Jane appears to know men´s nature very well ("I suppose your love will effervesce in six months, or less"...). It is admirable how Jane is, so cautious that she won´t suffer so much as other women when love is over.
Sorry Maria, I thought I vas clear. I was speaking about Jane and her tastes in what clothing is concerned: (black and grey, and only two dresses &c).
Another mistake (I'm in a hurry)as far as instead of in what.
In chapter 24, Jane is living a fairy tale, at first.But, when Rochester starts lavishing expensive gifts, Jane feels objectified and degraded because she wants to live on the salary she earns as a tutor. Her attitude is quite modern and admirable, specially when she can allow it. I dare say, she is a feminist in her time. So, she defends her financial independence and I think the most important point (in her position), she is contributing part of the society in which she lives, Jane needs to feel fulfilled.
In my opinion, this attitude of Jane is quite attractive for Mr. Rochester, and he corroborates when he said: “I never met your likeness, Jane”. In other words, she asserts herself.
Well, I don´t think that it is education that has made Jane be austere, but a way of life, to what she has been accostumed. However, much people usually forget the education they received when becoming rich. Don´t you agree?
Susana, I do not think Mrs. Fairfax should be envious of the governess but amazed before such a news. Analyzing Jane’s condition throughout her perception, I may comprehend Mrs. Fairfax’s attitude, for Jane young, quiet, with no relations and working within Thornfield as a governess, she seems not to embrace the portrait of a woman who makes a man like Rochester be in love with.
María, I agree with you. By writing our last composition, I came to the same conclusion: some times Jane seems to be Romeo.
I also agree with Carmen, the future Mrs Rochester will not let the Master treat her as a mere “object” which you can do as he pleases with. I guess Jane is a little bit disappointed after the climax of their last meeting.
Paloma, I am afraid I cannot see what you mean.
mistake: "he" instead of you.
Sorry.
I’d been thinking about yesterday’s discussion whether Catholic Church is loosing its power or not. I grant you that it is probably the only institution which has survived for more than 2000 years. However, is that related to power itself? I think not.
On the other hand, I’m looking forward to reading again the last part of Obama’s speech, as Carmen told us there is something recalling one of the best films has ever made “The Searchers”. Gorgeous!
Roberto, the church has power and let me tell you the most powerful leader in the WHOLE world is the Pope, there is no sahcow of a doubt about this. Another thing is that he doesn´t have power over you because you are are non-believer, if that be your case. the only thing I say to you and this considering that you are not young any more...start considering the possibility that they may be right and you wrong...with yourself alone to debate the issue, DO NOT LET ANYONE MANIPULATE you, not even your "self".
Susan, Jane is a feminist, but she is quite cold during her courtship, isn´t she? She is so aloof and detached,so cold-blooded so manipulating, she lacks freshness, innocence, I do not like it at all.
Paloma I too have found it difficult to understand what you mean but your second point has made it clear and I quite agree with you. education affects you undoubtedly, but also I think Jane´s attitude to riches has to do with austerity.
Have to run up to lessons
I have found (unexpectedly) a very funny sentence about power: Margaret Thatcher - "Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't." But I haven't still reflected on what it would mean regarding the Church...
What is clear is that there are less and less believers (in new generations specially) in Europe. But I confess I do not know how numbers evolve for other parts of the world. I would say their power, in one or two decades, will be adjusted to the number of believers. We'll see.
Roberto, also, I share your opinion about Mrs. Fairfax, but, from my point of view (as woman), though there is a component of envy, very few people in Mrs. Fairfax´s situation delightes for Jane, she was very rude an impolite.The most important thing, it is not enough to know, but we must try to have and use it ( what I want to tell you is: No es suficiente saber lo que hay que decir, también hay que saber cómo decirlo), and Mrs. Fairfax suffers an impulse of envy.
Carmen, I agree with you, Jane has a lot of qualities but she is not romantic.In spite of that, I admire her not just her personality, but as a woman. Jane breaks the stereotype, why Jane must be a sweet and indulgent woman? I find it very interesting.
I think you really fancy Juliet!!.
Finally, I would like to recommend you the film “Love is the Devil”, portrait of Francis Bacon.
Thanks for the recommendation Susan!
As for Mrs. Fairfax´s attitude, I don´t see that it is envy, sincerely, but perhaps it is. What I see is an intention of keeping Jane far from Mr. Rochester, as she sees him as a non-advisable partner. Can it be an intention of helping Jane? I am not sure, but there is something more serious in Mrs. Fairfax´s reaction than simply envy or amaze, as Susan and Roberto say. Remember that in the end of the chapter XXIII she was "pale, grave and amazed", which means not only surprise but something else... And I would rule out she is in love with Mr. Rochester...
I don´t know either how to connect Thatcher´s sentence with the Church. I think that Church won´t lose its power. They control many things, in social issues and politics. And parties count on it. Parties, when they are at the oposittion, usually go against the Church, but when they take the government on, they join forces. Because they know that it is better to be friends than to have the Church as an enemy. I also see that around me there are less believers as time goes by, but in general, I think it doesn´t happen the same. Remember that in Obama´s Inauguration party, there was a priest talking and all of them prayed the Our Father. And in Spain, we´ll see what happens with the subject "Educación para la Ciudadanía".
Sorry for the mistake: why must Jane be a sweet and indulgent woman?
Chapter 26
After a terrifying night, in which Jane even passed out, she was expecting Mr Rochester’s arrival. A clock struck ten and he had not arrived yet. Jane could not stand the waiting in the house any longer. She went to the gates. The part of the road she was able to see from there was solitary. Some tears of impatience and disappointment dimmed her eyes. She could neither stay there nor return to the house, so, despite the strong wind, she decided to go forward and meet him. Within a quarter of a mile, Jane heard a horse. It was Mr Rochester. He saw Jane, took off his hat, and waved it round his head. Jane then ran to meet him.
No matter how frightening some events have been, it is the last sentence that has really moved me the most.
How is it possible the wedding is being next day and Mr Rochester doesn´t want to speak to Jane about "the woman" clearly. What is he hidding? Why does he say to her he will tell her later. Why does she allow it? He is a sharper, he is making use of her love
Susana, thank you for your explanation but I am afraid that I keep disagreeing with your point of view. I see Mrs Fairfax’s attitude only as a merely consequence of such amazing a situation and share María’s opinion.
Not only is Jane cold during the courtship but I also think it is because of the social environment in which she is forced to pass through so as to marry Mr. Rochester. She wishes it could develop according to her world, plain, quiet and humble.
You are right Margarita; Mr. Rochester’s secret must be a very shocking indeed.
Carmen, I am a believer though I feel rather disappointed with the church and what it symbolises. Regarding Obama’s speech and its last part having a link with “The Searchers”, I agree with you though I do not consider it associated with the final scene but with whole film itself as the protagonists keep going till they find the missing girl, come what may, even though adversities, family circumstances, weather and time make the quest unreachable.
I´m not sure what you mean, Susan when you say that Jane breaks the steretype? which one? that forbearance with men? that pliability to Mr. Rochester´s treatment? she does as he says, ok she is endependent...provided there is not a man around!!!
I will comment the other posts tomorrow. I´ve only just been able to use my computer, this weekend I was at home in Santander and internet did not seem to be available, we just could not get connected!! Then I had to go to a burial in Vitoria and there was the blizzard,so it is only now that I have been able to open my computer and read some comments.
There's an address of Obama's we have not seen, interesting when its context is concerned. Besides, I recommend you to watch it in HIGH QUALITY, for doing it so, you will feel Mr. President as if he were into your room.
You can find it here:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/president-obama-delivers-your-weekly-address/
YOU MUST CLICK ON "download video as high quality, mp4" . It takes some seconds before the video appears in your screen. Be patient :-)
NOTE: The address of the 30th is even more interesting.
There's an address of Obama's we have not seen, interesting when its context is concerned. Besides, I recommend you to watch it in HIGH QUALITY, for doing it so, you will feel Mr. President as if he were into your room.
You can find it here:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/president-obama-delivers-your-weekly-address/
YOU MUST CLICK ON "download video as high quality, mp4" . It takes some seconds before the video appears in your screen. Be patient :-)
NOTE: The address of the 30th is even more interesting.
Carmen, I was talking about chapter 24, in which Jane feels objectified and degraded as I explained in my previous comment (29 de enero de 2009 11:37), “indeed her attitude is quite modern and admirable, specially when she can allow it”. In spite of her “future” position as Rochester´s wife, she belives in the social and economic equality of the sexes, that´s why, I admire her. Because, which are the aspirations of most of the women in that period?, Blanche gives us the answer “to be a kept woman”, or, as we were talking yesterday, “a mistress”, Mr.Rochester begins to treat Jane as a mistress, he wants her to wear jewels, brightly colored gowns and so on...because he used to conquer women like that and his behaviour and attitude upset Jane. I understand her perfectly, he questiones her steadfast moral and when she refuses it, Jane asserts herself.
Well, in the following chapters, we discover how passionate Jane is, as Luis describes in his comment...” Jane then ran to meet him. No matter how frightening some events have been, it is the last sentence that has really moved me the most”. But, in my opinion, she needes love as much as she needes her independence, and one thing is totally independent to the other. I think to be in love, it doesn´t mean to be an useless person. In fact, Jane survives at Gateshead and at Lowood School whitout men.
Of course I see your point, susan, and undoubtedly Jane is independent and wants to decide for herself, to keep herself, etc. it is also very clear that Jane is a woman and as one she loses her strength when she falls in love. as I see it women surrender before men when they are in love, one needs to be very strong and practical to fight against your better feelings, it is what Romeo describes as "What love can do that dare love attempt". We know that love is very strong thus Jane is at Rochester´s mercy and so is Rochester at hers. We´ll see what happens in the next chapters.
What I´ve been wanting to say about this Mr.Rochester of chapter 23, is that he is totally weak and pathetic. He has been described as a very strong man, his strength being physical as well as mental, from being the powerful man who deals with the dramatic attack that Mr. Mason suffers, telling him what to do, what to think, forget,etc, we have this insecure man who desperately needs the leadership of a girl who is the one that seems to be in charge of the situation. Not to mention the form of declaration in which the object of love is sent to the household with the absurd name!!!!
I have to recognise I’m a bit disconnected from what you are speaking about since I not been able to read your comments every day for nearly a week. I’ve read all of them now and I think I understand what you mean except for the last sentence in Carmen’s last comment. Carmen, I really sorry do not understand what you mean. Please, could you explain it to me? I’m rather intrigued. Thanks a lot
I mean when Mr. Rochester, instead of declaring his love in a straightforward way, starts by saying that Jane has to leave Thornfield and work in Ireland for Mrs. something O´Gall of Bitternut Hall!! Don´t you remember??? How did your interview go? all good news,I hope!
Chapter 27
Mr Rochester ends up admitting the truth and the living proof has been seen.
Jane is now in her room. Her hopes are all dead. Never more could Janes’s love turn to Mr Rochester; for faith had been blighted- confidence destroyed. Jane longs to be dead. She tries to utter a pray. Words will be wandering up and down in her mind. “Be not far from me, for trouble is near: there is none to help.” And the author, blaming Jane, writes, “It was near; and as I had lifted no petition to Heaven to avert it-as I had neither joined my hands, not bent my knees, nor moved my lips-it came.”
By the look of things, Jane is feeling guilty, is she not? Is it fair?
Sorry: It was not anónimo, it was me who wrote the previous comment. Sorry again.
Ok. Carmen Thank you, I was lost. What interview are you speaking about? I’m afraid I’m still lost.
I was eager to reach this point because I have a doubt about Mrs. Fairfax. Who thinks she Bertha is? As I told you before there is a novel, and a film, called Wide Sargasso Sea, about the relationship between Bertha and Mr. Rochester , first in Jamaica and then in England. In this novel only two people in England know the truth, one is Grace and the other Mrs. Fairfax.
Since she, being a priest widow, doesn’t say anything to Jane, we must suppose she doesn’t know Bertha’s condition as Mr. Rochester’s wife. Or, she knows and says nothing to keep her job? Her strange warning to Jane when she knew the engagement and all her years working in Thornfield makes me be suspicious. What do you think? Please give me your opinion.
At lenght we are on chapter 26, which I am currently reading. It is so boring wait to be ahead on the novel and, at the same time, not to be able to wirte about what you consider it interesting that when we reach the chapter itslef you realize that you have nearly forgotten those issues being worth mentioning. Nevertheless, I remember well the most frighten and “gothic” scene in the whole novel so far, Jane discovering someone within her room the night before the wedding. Had I been under such a situation, I would have srcreamed withouth hesitate. The moment both characters face one another is quite thrilling, isn’t it?
Mrs Fairfax must know Bertha is Mr. Rochester´s wife. And I think she tried to say it to Jane when they talked. But Jane felt uncomfortable by Mrs Fairfax´s dessaproval and though she had said anything, Jane wouldn´t have paid attention nor believed her. Don´t you think?? Moreover, in fact, it is not Mrs. Fairfax´s bussines...
Mr. Rochester is really despicable. I understand very well Jane´s feelings when the truth is discovered. What a dissapointment!! Despite her loss of innocence, as Carmen said, and her not being blinded anymore, she is not going to leave Rochester, as he´d deserve (otherwise, book would finish). So, she will accept the pain that will entail living with Rochester all her life. It is a kind of masochism which is produced when being in love. Rochester is like fire, beautiful from the distance but destructive when you touch it.
Roberto, take notes about previous chapters so that you don´t forget anything!!
What anónimo said yesterday corresponds to chapter 26 instead of 27. Sorry for that mistake
Well, María, I think Jane will leave Mr. Rochester, for it is a big betrayal and, of course, it would be impossible for Jane to live with an adulterer since his wife is alive
I see your point Maria. The thing is: What is more important, your conscience or your business, your boss or a friend? I think Mrs. Fairfax didn’t know the truth. Otherwise, it’s very difficult for me to understand her position. There is no forgetting she is a priest widow and read the sermons every night!
In chapter 26 there is another thing that surprises me a lot: The solicitor’s behavior.
He tells Jane about her uncle and advises her to stay in England, and after that he and Mr. Mason take their leave without asking her anything about what is she going to do now or where is she going to live or whether she needs money &c. They are supposed to have been sent to protect her and surprisingly they don’t worry about her. Mr. Mason being especially careless since it’s him the one in charge of the business, moreover, he knows she is the governess and therefore, she lives and works in Mr. Rochester’s house. Does he expect her to remain there after what has happened? Nobody in this novel behaves in the right way.
Please, go to Hamlet thread. I've posted there something really interesting and curious about the five first lines.
You are absolutely right about the lawyer and Mr. Mason, and what about the uncle? Shouldn´t he have charged Mason with taking her back to madeira,or commisioned the lawyer with organizing her life I mean providing her with enough money to set up her own house, etc.? this is indeed somehting which is not explained, they disappear and she left in the cage with the lion..it could be argued that none of them had a right to organize her life, or decide what she ought to do but when we imagine this situation one can´t help thinking that if this had happened to any of us we would have asked her whether she wanted to accompany us.
As to Mrs.Fairfax I can´t help thinking that she is in the dark. She could have suspected something, but confirmation she cannot have had, she is widow to a clergyman, and bigamy is specially ugly to most religions because it involves the second woman in a serious sin.
I´ve always liked this chapter because I think that it is very well balnced, very compact very well written and distributed, I mean lots of things are included, the fact that she has breakfast, which she brushes over, and others are described with more detail, going int her feelings only at the end, which would exactly be the case, as it is the time when she is alone and can think. reread it carefully and you´ll understand what I mean.
What will Jane do? Stay? And share Mr. Rochester´s life? But she says, herself tha tshe has to leave him. Can you imagine Jane as Celine? She dislikes this..no she is not the type to be a gentleman´s doll, her upright eduction, the daughter of a priest, no impossible.
I comprehend Mr. Manson and his solicitor should be only concerned about disclosing Mr Rochester’s mischief, Jane being just an indirect victim of such a situation, the consequences of which make her be the “governess” again, thus, nobody else cares for her. Let us now analyze Mr. Eyre attitude.
We already know he embraces some information, but not its context, related to Jane’s current condition after she had revisited Gateshead. Scarcely do we know whether Jane has mentioned the ill treatment received within so glooming a place. She might have omitted facts, and therefore, his uncle thinks her to have support in some way. However, conscious as he must be of her lacking any relatives, he might consider it better to wait before offering his help. Remember he is nearly to die, in a country far away from England.
Finally, were I to be Jane, I would not hesitate to leave Thornfield.
Sorry, I should have not written "else" on the first paragraph.
By that stage, I dind´t mind how weak and pathetic could seem Mr.Rochester before chapter 26, honestly, I would have prefered to remember him for his witties ideas and his immature personality.Hitherto, through his distinctive personality seems to me a very attractive and interesting man, however, such character turns into a monster in every repect and now I come to think of it I don´t know how I start the analysis of chapter 26 because it is a very important point of inflexion in the novel but I will do it point by point.
I have read your comments about Mr Rochester and whether Jane should stay or leave. I remember when I read the chapter . I thought, were I in Jane's situation, I would not leave him in spite of his latest behaviour, and of the hidden mad wife. He seems to love her. Yes, he is not as witty as he used to be, he has acted foolishly regarding the wedding, but... In the overall he seems honest, and he might have been acting this not very intelligent way because he is head over feet. I don't blame him. Not everyone can be as composed and honest as Jane! How difficult is it to find someone as special as Mr Rochester? Running away not only would she be sacrificing his happiness, but also hers. And she has nowhere to go!! But I agree that Jane's mentality would barely permit her to stay by his side...
By the way, I am reading an interesting book where they quoted another poem by T.S. Eliot, the author of Alfred Prufrock's love song...
"I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding before you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you
I will show you your fear in a handful of dust."
Rather inspiring, don't you think?
Chapter 27
After his failed wedding, Mr Rochester, in the library, is telling Jane what circumstances have led him to that situation. Mr Rochester takes it for granted that Jane will live with him. Tense situations will take place. Mr Rochester will even threaten to use violence, and it is Jane that avoids sealing her doom and Mr Rochester’s . When it comes to what his life with his wife has been like, and after a rich description, Mr Rochester, considering Jane to be sick, tries to put back the rest of the story to another day, but Jane tells him to finish. She even pities him. The word pity makes Mr Rochester adopt metaphoric language regarding the way that word is used. According to Mr Rochester, for some people that word means a noxious sort of tribute, but as far as Jane is concerned, Jane’s pity is the suffering mother of love. Mr Rochester will say: “Let the daughter have free advent- my arms wait to receive her.” Jane will say: “Now, sir, proceed; what did you do when….?”
Mr Rochester wastes no time in reaching his goal. Does he not?
Elena, as well as inspiring, it´s also very suitable!.
Thank you very much Luis for your summary of chapter 27 which I could finish to read today. But, there are some unclear points in chapter 26, since I found it very interesting I have some doubts:
Which is the price that Mr.Rochester must pay for his arrogant egocentric personality?
Is Mr.Manson and her sister characterized negatively because of prevailing class prejudices against his West Indies origins and mixed-race background? In any case, being Bertha confined in the attic represents a repressive aspect of Victorian wifehood.
Is Bertha trying to warn Jane against the institution of marriage when she tears the veil?
And finally, will Jane act according to her principles?. Well, I didn´t have any doubts but now in chapter 27 I could corroborate it.
Mr. Rochester vs. Mr. Darcy
Mr. Darcy as the male protagonist of Pride & Prejudice shows himself rather insufferable before Miss Elizabeth Bennet’s eye, since he seems to be the opposite to women’s ideal portrait of a man. In their first meeting Mr. Darcy, proud, quiet and disagreeable makes not effort at all so as to seek the acquaintance with Lizzy, thus, in spite of his being handsome and wealthy, the latter is unable to find any sign of gentleness but a “plain” person, treating those people n a lower social status with scorn. However, the more you get to know his real character and discover the injustices done against him; he will turn amiable, brave, honest and sincere.
On the other hand, Mr. Rochester’s first appearance grants Jane Eyre “the mysterious meeting”, showing the former as a powerful, brave and vulnerable man, even handsome despite his lack of beauty. The acquaintance done, he has a natural talent to talk to Jane, always transmitting a sense of secrecy and enigma, the consequences of which make her spellbound before such a witty man, perfectly able to have a command of every situation. Nevertheless, when the courtship is over and Jane is conquered, Mr. Rochester behaves childishly, insincerely and cruelly towards his beloved.
Besides, as far as declaration of love is concerned, Mr. Darcy does it properly, disclosing his sentiments and exposing himself to rejection. On the contrary, Mr. Rochester behaves cunningly, for he will not have a rest till he gets Jane’s confirmation of love for him.
Good comment Luis.
Elena, I am afraid that I do not agree with you. Mr. Rochester being really in love with Jane and with no intention to wound her, Jane cannot remain within Thornfield as HE IS ALREADY MARRIED. Regrettable as he feels by having made such a mistake in the past, there is no coming back to undo it and, therefore, he must bear that “fardel” and its consequences
Susana, I will answer you intriguing questions in my next comment. :-)
I have not finished Chapter 27 yet, however, I have seen a resemblance between Jane’s attitude and Hamlet’s “To be or not to be” which I consider it quite interesting:
‘If I could go out of life now, without too sharp a pang, it
would be well for me,’ I thought; ‘then I should not have
to make the effort of cracking my heart-strings in rending
them from among Mr. Rochester’s. I must leave him, it
appears. I do not want to leave him—I cannot leave him.’
"To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd."
Roberto, your comparison is very acute! I hadn't thought of it.
I still think running away from Mr Rochester, after his explanations on his marriage and his wife must be so hard... We must take into account she is alone in the world! The price to pay to follow her principles is too high in my opinion, but I do not doubt so intent a person as Jane Eyre will do it.
Susana, your questions are very interesting. In fact, Paloma mentioned anothter book, a "prequel" of Jane Eyre which told the story of Bertha, somehow redeeming her character. Following that reference, I found some interpretations of her character in the sense you mention - prejudices against the Creolles.
By the way, did you notice that Jane timidly defends Bertha at some point: "She cannot help being mad"...
Elena and Roberto well done for posting and thus having read poetry in English. Roberto is becoming quite an expert in inter-relaing.
I just wanted to say that in chapter 27 we see Mr. Rochester at his best, this is what a man deeply in love, and I´m contradicting Jane Austen quote "a man who felt less might have said more", women lked to listen, and Mr. Rochester speaks and I have to admit that what he says is fantastic, it sounds so true, all this about her being part of his flesh, and how he would treat her were she mad....I have to admit to not having seen this in real life, no one has said it to me or for that matter felt it for me, it all comes to the same thing, doesn´t it? I would like to hear the opinion of our "gentlemen" on the subject...I am inclined to think that it is another male that issues from a female, thus inaccurate. This kind of fixed feeling appears in Benjamin Button, but then he leaves, doesn´t he? when the nest has a chick he ran away...
Comments, please
I agree more with Austen´s opinion. Men don´t tell "I love you", and when they do, women usually don´t trust them. Well, maybe I´m talking about my own opinion and not a universal one. When those marvellous words are uttered but men´s mouths spontaneously, without any reason, they don´t usually turn to be so sincere. Many times they don´t know what they are saying and what it means. Don´t you think?? But Rochester´s situation is different. He doesn´t express his feelings openly gratuitously, but with the desperation of losing his beloved Jane. And when you are desperate you are more you. You say the truth because it´s the last chance, since nothing would be worse than the current situation. "Nothing to lose", Rochester would think, "so, I´ll tell her the truth". I have the impression that I know Rochester better, obviously I have now more information about his past, but it´s true that now he is another mortal, who made mistakes, but a man who only wants to be happy, to get the calm after the storm of his life. I pity him as well.
uttered by men´s mouths I wanted to say...
Reading chapter 27th I’ve had the strong feeling that something was wrong. At first I didn’t realised what it was. In spite of the beautiful and tender feelings Mr.Rochester shows, I wasn’t touched. I usually like men’s declarations of love very much and read them several times, but, this time, I was unmoved. Then, suddenly I’ve realised what was going on: What I was reading weren’t a man words. I make myself clear. I can understand the feelings, I truly believe a man able of being in such a mood, I’ve seen men crying for love more than once, but, never, never, have I heard a man speaking like that. This chapter strikes me very much as being written by a woman, I mean, those are the words a woman would like to hear, maybe the ones “she” would say, but they aren’t men’s words. They don’t say things like that: too many words and explanations too long and detailed. I even find the whole speech a bit twee for a man. Do you agree?
Dear Susana,
These are my answers to your questions:
1-Is Mr. Manson and her sister characterized negatively because of prevailing class prejudices against his West Indies origins and mixed-race background?
I do not think so. Despite the fact that their race is not considered as a good one, Bertha Mason was diagnosed as mad by doctors. Besides, servants turn away by discovering so crazy a mistress.
2-Is Bertha trying to warn Jane against the institution of marriage when she tears the veil?
In my opinion, she still has some moments of lucid behaviour, thus, when discovering the wedding clothes, she might feel vexed, since the marriage made her shut up.
3-Will Jane act according to her principles?
I hope so even though Mr. Rochester should show reasonable reasons justifying such a mistake of his past life.
Elena, you are right though I consider Jane to be an independent woman, unwilling to let others’ condition rule her will. It is high time she did her own way!
Carmen, that is certainly an interesting point of view. Mr. Rochester is talented to speak, he knows how to hold your attention completely. Nevertheless, not every body is capable of expressing what they really feel and I believe there are other ways so as to show such sentiments. What about women? Are you able to tell these things to a man?
I think Benjamin Button is “forced” to run away.
María and Paloma, I am afraid that if so beautiful words have not been granted to you, it does not mean there be no men able to do it.
Sorry Roberto, you are mistaken. But, before going on with further explanations I beg you to answer me only one question: Have you ever, or any friend of yours, told something similar to any woman?
Only to say that I think Susana meant that Charlotte Brontë might have had some prejudices against people from West Indies because she chose the mad wife Bertha to be one of them...
Hi! I´ve found out from Paloma that my 4ths have finally gone to the cinema I´m so glad that they been!! I´ll try to go next week. Tuesday is a bad day for me as I go to my brother´s house to teach his son some English and that is the best day for them but I´ll try to change it next week.
It is fantastic what you are doing with the film club.
I´ve read your comment Susan and I find it very interesting, yes Bertha could be warning Jane as to the consequences of marriage...and Mr. Rochester is indeed influenced by the fact that both mason and sister are creoles, in fact she sees her as an inferior because he refers to her as creole, and never as Bertha!!! We have spoken today about the importance that he himself attaches to "race" he being included in this "club", now it makes me think that if he was that in possesion of such pedigree how came he to marry a creole??? think that Bertha had black blood in her!!!! And he doesn´t have the haughtiness that Mr. Darcy, with better blood has, can you imagine Mr. Darcy married to a creole???
Roberto absolutely wonderful analysis! well done, you are absolutely right, Mr. Darcy is more true and honest, more one piece, Rochester is a more patched up personality, scampering over Europe in pursuit of a worthy female and ending up with harlots!!
I see that there have been no posts, and I just have some minutes to share something with you. JI´ve been to Arco this morning and walked around a bit. There is one Bacon in Malborough Gallery and the prize comes up to two thosuand million pts. i tell you in pts because it´s impossible to figure it out in euros!! JI´ve quite liked it. Tere are many nice things and some awful ones, don´t miss the beheaded head, literally, who addresses you with rotating eyes in Soledad Lorenzo!!!! I walked past the indian Galledries, I´m going back tomorrow morning, and i´ve seen La Leti as well!!!! She is very thin, pretty, short, and was unsuitably dressed for a cocktail with satin platforms!!! Her bearing is that of a commoner trying to be a Duchess, my God she is so unnatural!!!!!! and she still has the problem of her arms, waves them about in a very unladylike manner. Moreover she looks so tense all the time, one can´t help perceiving this strain and she makes everyone uncomfortable, I so wished to tell her relax, be yourself, don´t pretend, after all we all know everything about you!!!! It made me think of Jne Eyre, can anyone imagine her dancing at a Ball? She would be exactly like Dña. Leti: a failure. Mr. Rochester better keep her secluded or risk falling out of love, fast. there is nothing that makes one more so than whe you are ashamed of your "flesh", don´t you think?
I have been dwelling on Mr Rochester’s being a womanizer and, coming to the same conclusion, wonder if he is really in love with Jane or he is strongly attached to her because of his continuous search of a woman so as to avoid “loneliness”.
You are right Carmen, we cannot pretend what we are not however hard do we try.
It is a good think Jane be conscious enough about such a condition disclosed before her.
I think that men are capable of saying many fantastic things to us ladies, but..in black and white! poetry, letters, novels, songs, are fantastic to allow their imaginations to fly and "compose", but rarely do they produce them during a quiet tet-a-tet (do not know if I got the spelling right)with one of us? You sk me whether it is possible that a woman said something like that to a man? Well the poetry, etc. in a less gifted manner but yes, why not?? we would keep it less "airy" a little more practical at times but yes Jane herself confesses her love powefully to Mr.Rochester, doesn´t she?
I see that none of you have been to Arco? Apparently it is 30e to get in but you can spend the day there, in fact you have to if you want to see everything. Remember it´s a fair not a musuem!
I´m in Santander this weekénd and have started Pombo´s new novel, it´s about a woman, we seem to interest him quite...
Having finished chapter 27, I must acknowledge not having had enough information so as to agree or disagree with Carmen in our last class concerning Mr Rochester’s regaining his former “attractiveness”. His story explaining why his marriage was concealed and her wife shut up is certainly plausible and you sympathy with such a mistake made in the past even though I do not feel it enough so that Jane might remain by his side. However, I really liked it when we are told all the events happened since Jane was arrived at Thornfield throughout his eye, and how he felt in love just by meeting Jane. I must congratulate Jane Austen for such a perfect portrait of men’s behaviour when they fall in love, since I believe we usually act in that way, at least, I do.
I get surprised by considering Jane’s present situation, wondering why she did not try to find out more about Mr. Rochester’s past. I guess she was both too fond of him and too innocent that she was idealized him. On the other hand, Jane has noticed something rather shocking in his beloved speech “…to live familiarly with inferiors is degrading”, thus, she makes up her mind to part, for they have reached a point of no return. Quite many religious references are mentioned in this chapter, Jane feeling a bit of relief because of her faith.
There is a statement whose meaning I am unable to understand however hard I try: “I was for a while troubled with a haunting fear that if I handled the flower freely its bloom would fade, the sweet charm of freshness would leave it.”
What do you think about the next quote? “The more solitary, the more friendless, the more unsustained I am, the more I will respect myself” I wish I could tell Jane that I am there, suffering with her and that she is not alone.
And one more: “The first was a page so heavenly sweet – so deadly sad – that to read one line of it would dissolve my courage and break down my energy. The last was an awful blank: something like the world when the deluge was gone by.” How poetic and how true at the same time!
Mistake: she idealized him.
A very good reflection, Roberto, I think that in the first quote you´ve posted Mr. Rochester (it is him who says it, isn´t he) means that if he acted quickly, or explained his marriage, situation, etc. to her, she would innocence which is precisely what happened, as we have discussed in class.
Teh second shows the willpower of the survivors, don´t you think? Strength gives you resolution and helps one to continue, friends ar no.
the third, shows desperation and desolation.
They are very well picked up because they are subsequent, I do not know if I really want to say this or that they explain her character and what she felt like.
Brilliant
I´m sorry to see that nothing has been posted about Arco. It´s depressing to find how little some people are willimg to do for others, however it is good to know our mates...
Hello, I'm sara from I2B and I'm not sure if it is here that Carmen wants me to write in!!!...just to recommend you a "solo project" in ARCO by artist Amaya González Reyes called “Yo gasto”.
It is a project in which you can buy an art work!
You will find it at Pavilion 6 (SP 03)
Further information:
http://www.parra-romero.com/artistas/amayagonzalez.html
bye!
14 de febrero de 2009 20:51
I´ve copied this which was published in 3rd year blog
Chapter 28
Jane is in a north-midland shire, at a cross road where she was set down by the coachman. She is destitute, so she has to spends the night under a granite crag. On the following day, Jane gets to a hamlet. In a little shop’s window, she sees a cake but she can not afford it because she is penniless. She tries to get employment of any kind with no success. As time goes by, Jane is getting hungrier. Jane returns to the little shop and requests the woman in charge if she gave her a roll for her silk handkerchief, the woman will refuse. Jane knocks on different doors for help. She will even eat food for pigs. Jane has been roaming around all day long and, in the end, she sees, at one dim point, far in among marshes and ridges, a light springing up. Four new characters appear in the novel: two young ladies, Diana and Mary, an old woman, Hannah, the house servant, and Mr St John, the two sisters’ brother. It is Mr St John that let Jane enter the house. Jane has laid when she says what her name is, and finally,the three brothers agree to lodge her in a comfortable room.
It is sad to see how Jane’s life has changed in less than forty-eight hours, isn’it? Will she be able to get over this bitter experience?
sorry for a big mistake: it says
She is destitute, so she has to spends the night under...
I should have written:
She is destitute, so she has to spend the night under...
I'm sorry; I could not go to the exhibition.
Carmen when saying "It’s depressing to find how little some people are willing to do for others, however it is good to know our mates...” What are you referring to?
I'm going to say something curious happened to me this very morning. I went to visit my old neighbourhood where I lived as a child and teenager; and in passing through it with the car, many recollections came back to my mind making me amazed when looking around, seeing everything changed though similar in its essence. How socking is to notice that the life already lived seems to be like a dream, however, when you contemplate places which are still there, your mind brings back real events that are part of what you are become now.
Anyway, I beg your pardon for divagating so. By the way, I have seen “The Queen”, not the one about Elizabeth the First but the current Queen, and I have liked very much. I recommend you to see it if you can.
Hello! I´ve just arrived from ARCO. And the crisis is not there! Full of people and most of works of art are sold! I saw Bacon´s painting, which costs 17 million of euros!!! By God! And many other strange things, but not many as previous years.. I´ve known two artists (I´ll tell you who), Soledad Lorenzo, and Carlos Díez and his "truoppe"..., and I´ve also had a drink in the VIP bar. Very amusing! Now I´m really exhausted, so I´m going to bed to read chapter 28. Tomorrow I´ll tell you my experience at ARCO.
By the way, I´ve not seen "Yo gasto". Only one day is not enough!
Thank you to Roberto, Elena and Carmen for your explanations, they were very informative. Carmen, I´m looking forward to hear more about your experience in Arco, as always funny and surrealist. Really, I had guests this weekend, sometimes, I think we need a clone!.
Now, I can draw my own conclusions according to chapter 27:
Jane is between the sky and hell, the passion and reason, the desire to stay and the decision to leave, but, why must Jane leave?.
Rocherter attempts to justify making Jane his mistress by telling her about his misery and his wife´s loathesomeness. I think that becoming Rochester´s mistress would be considerate a betrayal to herself. A mistress can never be the equal of her love, so Jane refuses to go with him. In spite of that, Mr.Rochester admits that “hiring a mistress is the next worse thing to buying a slave” However, in his madness, Mr.Rochester can see no way out of this situation, since, divorce from an insane spouse was impossible under English law.
On the other hand, it seems to me that Mr.Rochester was blinded by trivial matters, as appearance, beauty and money, and never respected the woman as thinking individuals and now he learns “this lesson” from Jane. He tries to escape his past by covering it up with cheap pleasures and mistresses. However, this time his idea dind´t work out.
Both must face their decision, again their loneliness.
I don’t know whether I would be able to go to class today, my dog leaped up at me and knocked me to the ground. As a result left side is all injured, inflamed and painful and I don’t feel well.
I am sorry for you Paloma, I hope the injures be not serious.
Mr. Rochester wishes to get rid of former mistakes and wants Jane to help him to turn away the weary condition he is “forced” to grunt and sweat throughout his whole lifetime, however, Jane must avoid such a temptation and act following her own principles, thus, parting is the only way to keep going. In my opinion, I think Mr. Rochester rather selfish, for it is Jane that is always required to sacrifice herself so that her beloved might aim what he wants. What an injustice!
I am sorry for you Paloma, I hope the injures be not serious.
Mr. Rochester wishes to get rid of former mistakes and wants Jane to help him to turn away the weary condition he is “forced” to grunt and sweat throughout his whole lifetime, however, Jane must avoid such a temptation and act following her own principles, thus, parting is the only way to keep going. In my opinion, I think Mr. Rochester rather selfish, for it is Jane that is always required to sacrifice herself so that her beloved might aim what he wants. What an injustice!
To whom it concerns,
SORRYYYYYYY! I want to apologize for my previous comment about some people not doing however little for others... well, I was wrong because is had been done but I had not seen it!!!!!! SORRY.
P.S. as you see ignorance always gets you into trouble, which has been my case owing to my being hopeless with computers...learn through me...
Susan a very good explanation.
Roberto I´ve liked your description of how you felt very much, accurate indeed and very well described. Many a time have I had the same sensation, your past, when remembered appears to be a dream, even the images you are trying to recall are kind of blurred...it is a very sad thing to go back to where we have been to see that although things are the same you are not. It happens to me every time I leave Victoria Station in London same scenario...different actress:me!! I invariably feel a pang of sorrow. Things are better.. finished, because you valued them then and not necessarily any more....
María, you were in the right place and with the right people by the look of it!!!! Well done always target high and get there!! The VIP room was done by some friends of mine, they organize events and they are very good at what they do, I particularly liked the "miombo", as the artist who created it, called it in that mauve colour. Do you actually know Soledad Lorenzo? She is one of the most influential gallerists in Madrid and I would go further and say in Spain. Comes from Santander.
Paloma, so sorry about your accident..you now know why I don´t like dogs, they are DANGEROUS, thank God that you did not break something and it´s just a bruise!
I’ve been thinking the whole afternoon about Jane’s flight. I know most of you think it had been a mistake but I must confess you something. When I read chapter 27 y felt quite sympathetic with Jane. It’s odd, but, for some reason, I was feeling her sadness and helplessness. I say it’s strange because most of the time I don’t feel very moved by the novel. However, this time I could put myself in her shoes. I am not sure I would not have done the same. In such an occasion you must feel, at least I would have felt, absolutely empty, whit no soul, no hope, no feelings, no will or wishes. I think I would have walked as a machine for a long time, as she did. This afternoon I’ve been in class thinking about her, her situation &c. I still think that perhaps I would have done exactly the same. Of course I’m not sure, you never know how are you going to react in front of a situation but…
If I don’t feel SO sympathetic I think I would got very angry with “the man” and I would have sent him very far away. Then, perhaps I would have felt very sorry, but in the first moment, angry would have been the strongest feeling. What about you? Are you self-destructive or self-protective?
Thank you it’s very kind of you
Oh yes, I was very lucky! Soledad Lorenzo is a friend of a workmate of mine´s husband, the director of Casado Santapau´s gallery in Madrid. I didn´t know she comes from Santander. She told us she has sold everything and that the crisis doesn´t affect to art issues. Media has published several times that there were a 40% discount, which was a complete lie. "There wouldn´t have been a bussiness and neither artists nor the director of art galleries would have won anything". Anyway, I would have liked to spend more time with her, questioning...
Then we were having a look to the most "interesting" galleries, according to this expert, and in ADN Barcelona Eugenio Merino was. He has been a very mentioned artist this season by his work "4 the love of Go(l)d" consisting on the representation of the "last work of Damien Hirst", as he said. He wanted to show how Hirst´s last work would be: his own suicide. It is very horrifying, but he seemed to be a normal person, but I was with him only for some minutes... Who knows... The piece was sold by an American collector, for 30.000 euros.
There we were when suddenly a trouppe was coming to us, very eccentric in manners and clothes... Who were they? The fashion designer Carlos Díez and his "boyfriends"! He is also a friend of my workmate´s and told us that this was the second day at ARCO as he was the first one only kissing his acquaintances. Before saying goodbye we went to the VIP room to drink a coke. I liked the "miombo" and the intimate atmosphere with purple lights. I only missed some performance, which used to be very curious. A really good experience indeed.
María you are very lucky to have had such an interesting experience. I do know Soledad, she was several times dining with my parents, i aonly wonder at my father not buying any of her paintings, but then, he was not brought up with this mentality!!! otherwise we would now have a good art collection, well possibly, they certainly knew the people. Keep it up and we´ll see you famous!
Paloma, I´m almost sure that I would have forgiven Mr.Rochester immediately, exactly as Jane has done!!! You´ve written a vey good post but have not told us what you would have done, which I respect, of course!! in my opinion when a woman is in love we FORGIVE and moreover we normally give in we consent, we surrender,, I certainly would, and possibly have become Mr. Rochester´s mistress..not very clever, since he would have despised me, as he says himself...
I don´t think Jane´s farewell was a mistake. It´s good that some of us maintains her principles!! That demonstrates the enormous strength of her. She loves Rochester very much indeed, but he made a big mistake which is not easy to forgive nor forget at the moment and which hurt her very much. She believed she knew him but suddenly she discovered the dark secret he had been concealing and that´s not the better sensation. Rochester was for her like a platonic love, perfect and unreachable, bus as she was knowing him, the platonic love was becoming a mortal one, with troubles and imperfections, and she was disappointed. She can´t say: "Oh! Do you have a wife who has been shut up for ten years? It doesn´t matter. I still love you, so let´s run away together." So would a mistress act and she is not.
The other issue is Rochester´s side. He made a mistake being forced by his father, he was young and got married without thinking it so much (as men usually do), a great mistake, the consequences of which have marked all his life. Does he deserve to suffer? I think so, as hard as it could sound. He didn´t acted in a proper way and he´s paying the prize. He must have been sincere with Jane in order to avoid the beating. He would have been willing to carry the bigamy on, which would have been easy, but for this only one possibility of making Jane suffer, he deserves to put up with it for it having been discovered before getting married.
Jane is having now all the luck she lacked when being a little girl. She has been two days looking for help, without money nor anything, and now she´s sleeping in a warm bed and being feed. Nature and God must love her indeed!
Sorry I thought I was being clearer. I think I would have done the same as Jane. I would have also eloped without thinking in the consequences, in fact, without thinking at all, as an automaton. However I’m not sure. Throughout my life I’ve developed a strong feeling of self- protection, which leads me to get angry with those who hurt me. If you are very angry you don’t feel sad. Rage is always, as far as me is concerned, a stronger feeling than sadness or self-pity. What have I done? I don’t know. I suppose it would depend on my state of mind at that moment .Who knows?
In any case, of one thing I’m sure, I wouldn’t feel sorry for “the man” (I think) I’m more selfish than Jane and, at least in the first moment, I’m, sure I would have felt either empty or angry but never concerned about him.
I am not sure whether you are really considering Jane’s condition, she having no many, no relatives and no husband. Thus, what else can she do but turning away? If she remains, she will become “an inferior” in everyway.
Well done Jane!
You are right Luis, I am sorry for Jane. She does not deserve such a glooming perspective as she seems to be doomed to meet. However, I dare say there is always someone appearing in the story who rescues our heroine when nothing else but woe is beside her.
Jane is an heroine. But there aren´t many of them in real life, unfortunately. Me, the first. Were I Jane, firstly, I wouldn´t have accepted the marriage till knowing her future husband´s past. She knew there was a secret. something strange happened in the house, and she did nothing. She was blind and now the veil has fallen. However, Rochester showed so well his deep regret and love that made Jane forgive him instantly. I´m not so strong as Jane is, and I´d have fallen in his arms after those marvellous words, despite his deserving to suffer; but also I´d have behaved in a witchy way for some days, for giving him a fright, and so as not to lose all my self-confidence. You don´t know what you have till you lose it, or till you think you have lost it... don´t you? ;)
I agree with Roberto. The reality Jane is facing is that, above in love or not, wife or mistress, Mr Rochester is not reliable. Till now, Jane is an honest young woman, with a good preparation by mean of which she can modestly earn her living, and a good reputation that allows her to find another acceptable job. What waits her if she accepts to be Mr. Rochester mistress? How will her future be if her beloved man gets tired and consequently gets rid of her? She will be lost. So she must leave her Byronic hero. Of course she could take another way, for instance go to Madeira to pay a visit to his uncle to get some cash. But she will probably not be strong in her decision if she does not leave Thornfield immediately.
Paloma, I am very sorry for the accident with your dog. I hope you recover as soon as possible. Please keep in mind that even if some dogs are dangerous, most humans are more dangerous than most dogs, and some of them are able to be as harmful as no non-human animal would ever be. Two of them that are supposed to protect ourselves were in the news last week, with their Escopetas Nacionales.
I am reading a book called “becoming Queen “It’s about the Queen Victoria of England. Yesterday I came to the point in which she came of age. I was absolutely bewildered seeing that there are surprising parallelisms between her and...Jane!!!! So much so that I reached the conclusion that Charlotte Bronte drew inspiration from the young queen for her character and from her first Prime Minister, Lord Melbourne, for Mr. Rochester. It’s incredible. I’m socket.
If any of you is interested in the particulars, I can give them, either here or in class.
I LOST MY PREVIOUS COMMENT!!!
So hard a decision Jane made!!!
She is so young and she has been so lonely it doesn´t seem fair to me that happens to her!!
Now we can criticize her for staying or leaving
but I guess taking that determination must have been the most difficult dilemma in her live.
Or maybe not ,as she has made up her mind which is very straight.
She has the fortitude and strengh enough to face a new live which is not going to be easy to start provided her current condition of poverty and destitution.
People like her could move the world!!!
In chapter 29th we have witnessed her improvement and can confirm our assertions concerning her powerful mind and determination.
She embraces her loneliness with solemnity and hope.
We´ll see how time advances and she progresses.
An apparently nice family gives her a new chance.
By the way,tonight we saw a good play,"Descartes..." I´ll think on it and try to write a few lines tomorrow...hahaha
I liked it but with some objections...!!!
María, I am afraid you cannot forsee how you would act unless you were really under such a condition.
Thank you Alessandro!
Paloma, you always keep us informed. Thank you.
Silvia I completely agree with you.
Grateful as Jane is by having been rescued from doom, she seems to be herself again, so to say, she does not let other either control her will or threaten her pride as we could see when she was in Gateshead, Lowood and also in Thornfield. Indomitable
Carmen I know you’ll agree with this sentence I’ve found in Time: “Te difference between Republicans and Democrats is like the difference between Pepsi and Coke” Bijan Nobaveh, MP
It's what you always says, isn't it?
If you still don’t go to the theatre I´d encourage you to go, “El encuentro de Descartes con el joven Pascal” is an exceptional play. Anyway, we have written some comments in the Theatre section.
Chapter 29
It is three days since Jane arrived at Moor House (Marsh End). What does Jane look like according to Mr St John? He, who is a parson, says that Jane’s physiognomy is rather unusual; certainly, not indicative of vulgarity or degradation. He traces lines of force in her face which makes him sceptical of her tractability. She looks sensible, but not at all handsome. An as far as Diana is concerned, what does Jane think about Diana? She thinks that it was her nature to feel pleasure in yielding to an authority supported like hers, and to bend, where her conscience and self-respect permitted, to an active will. Jane is almost recovered. When Mr St Johns tells Jane that she may eat, though still not immoderately, Jane says that she will not eat long at his expense. Mr St John asks Jane if she is a spinster. Diana laughs, but Jane feels a burning glow mount to her face. Jane tells St John, Diana, and Mary, what her life has been like, but she says that the name of the place where, and the person with whom she had lived is her secret. Jane says that she wants to be independent of them; the only think she asks is how to seek work. Meanwhile, the brother and the two sisters agree to keep Jane, and Mr St John promises to help Jane to get a job.
Is Jane’s life put on the right track yet?
In spite of her plight, as before, Jane decides to struggle hard, she said: “ The burden must be carried; the want provided for; the suffering endured; the responsibility fulfilled. I set out”. And again in chapter 29, her patience is proved by Hannah who unjustly judges and condemns Jane. As Mrs. Fairfax, Hannah´s behaviour is not excusable. She tries to excuse herself when she explains that Diana and Mary have like nobody to take care of them but her. However, this is not the reason why Jane is so hurt and Jane replies to Hannah: “But I do think hardly of you and I tell you why- not so much because you refused to give me shelter, or regarded me as an impostor, as because you just now made it a species of reproach that I had no “brass” and no house. Some of the best people that ever lived have been as destitute as I am; and if you are a Christina, you ought not to consider poverty a crime”. This situation is so real as nowadays!. Money is above everything, even above feelings. It is too cruel that this behaviour “in theory” it doesn´t belong to any religion, indeed, very typical “breast-beating”.
Mistake: this behaviour "in theory" doesn´t belong to any religion.
Chapter 28 was to me probably the most distressing in the book. It's so well written that I felt transported to Jane's desperate situation. Actually, it made me think of a number of times when I may have acted as Hannah did...
This happened to me in my last comment,when I´m ready to send it,or even using the VISTA previa all the words dissapear!!!
Does anybody know what I am doing wrong???
I´ll try to repeat it,but it was a long one!!!
Elena, I felt exactly as you do and I´d like to tell you a story that happened to me in Mexico about two years ago.
Some colleagues and me had gone to buy some "putter" ornaments,and in our way back "something"(not near of us yet)fell down from the pavement to the road.
Two pairs of my friends passed next to it and went on,but as the last of us,three,arrived,we realised "that" on the floor was a man,shaking as in an epileptic fit.
None of us could move,He was dirty,dressed in rags,thick beard and long hair.
The street was deserted.A few seconds later a car stopped with a couple.
Finally the sick man came round... and started crying!!!
He then showed us a label hanging from his neck in which it could be read "I´M NOT DRUNK BUT EPILEPTIC".
How desperate a situation!
We weren´t able to help him as we didn´t know the city very well,just the few money left we had.
From that moment,as you can imagine,my day completely changed.I couldn´t stop crying for such an inhuman behaviour we had.
I can only justify it for in Mexico you have to be careful with every strange situation,but I don´t feel proud at all particularly of those friends who didn´t even stopped!!!
I’ve been a bit surprised Reading chapter 29th. When Jane refuses to giving any information about herself or her previous life, The Riverses aren’t suspicious at all, and, for me, this is quite a strange thing, in a world in which women hadn’t any rights and men controlled their lives.
Because she is not wearing any ring ST. John decides she “never” has been married as if a ring couldn’t be removed. In chapter 28th everything were suspicions, even beyond the reasonable (Hannah) An now everything is believed without questioning it. In spite of her appearance she could have murdered her husband, for instance. They judge everything for the external sings: cloths, features, way of speaking etc. As though a lady couldn’t commit a murderer, or run away from her husband, etc.
Sorry, mistakes: refuses to give
any right
Elena, in fact, we used to judge, at least we admit it and like Hannah we should correct it. Certainly, these last chapters are quite extreme.
Silvia, as for why we are prejudced towards others, I think it always has to do with fear and insecurity. Frequently, we make false generalisations but prejudice is a consequence of our natural tendency to categorise the world in order to make sense of it. In your situation, what will I do?, perhaps I must ask myself: “Is this true?, Am I labelling this group or person unfairly?”. Well you never know but it´s a fact that everything in life is action and reaction and we can improve it.
Silvia, I can only recommend you to write your comment firstly in the application "Bloc de notas" or in Word, and copy/paste it afterwards to the blog so that you have a copy of it in case it disappears when sending it...
Yes, Susana, we have a lot of prejudices which are linked to our fears - but they also make our life easier whenever we have to make a choice... I suppose we should be careful not to lose our empathy toward the others, which is our best virtue.
¡¡¡Please go to the Film Club!!!
We have the winner of the contest.
Thank you Elena,good idea,I´ll try it-
Paloma I think that behaviour is exactly what characterizes Jane.She needs shrewd conversations,therefore she provokes them.
Besides she does not want anybody to know about her,so why should she tell her real story causing it the newly family rejection?
I´ve lost a previous, very long post!!!
I´ll try to summarize.
Silvia you were not that horrible, I do that everyday!! how many of us stop with a beggar to ask them about their situation, or take him to lunch at home? Ugliness and poverty horrifies us exactly as it did Hannah.
I am somewhat puzzled sometimes to see some of the surprising events in the Rivers household, first the total rejection and then the admission with very little information of the new inmate, who, as Paloma says, could ahve killed her husband or God knows what!! Now they recognize her as a lady or sort of, before she was a tramp. As to Jane´s anger, it´s surprising to remember that she, herself, did not invite the poor beggar and her little girl to dinner and bed in Thornfield, don´t you remember??? As usual it is when something happens to us that we feel it, not before
Since we are going to discuss Chapter 30 next Wednesday, I would like to mention a beautiful use of a beautiful word, dovetail. It comes from woodworker’s vocabulary, more exactly from cabinet makers. It is a particular technique of jointing two or more pieces of wood to make boxes or drawers. It consists in cutting the ends of the mentioned pieces of wood following a similar pattern that exactly fits one with the other. The basic form of the pattern is at right angle 90 degrees, but best results are obtained using a trapezoidal pattern, resembling a dovetail. It was and I widely used, in spite of the invasion of Ikea’s empire. The Spanish term would be “cola de Milano”, but I would not use it as a nice translation. Back to Jane Eyre, how refreshing is the fact that at last she found some almost normal people. I say almost normal because I do not know what to expect from St. John. Will ever poor Jane meet a normal man? St. Jon remembers me the boy with the broken tooth by Pocaterra, or even Norman Bates. Charlotte Bronte’s geniality shows again: she presents us a family with the same original pattern of the Reeds (two sisters and one brother, a very old and originally wealthy family, etc.) but with a completely different attitude towards life.
Luis, I think Jane’s condition unclear yet. I believe she cannot remain in such a situation for a long time. There is no motivation at all so as to keep going despite the fact that everything around her transmit (p.subj) peace.
Susana, you are probably right when considering the injustice a poor person must bear by wanting of a respectable social position. However, Jane seems to be concerned mainly over her pride, which has been obviously injured. Continually is she showing her gratefulness towards St. John and his sisters even though she is also showing an “arrogant” attitude, in my opinion. I mean, everything in her behaviour denotes incongruity as she wants to be helped but at the same time not to be pitied and treated as person of her “rank”. Besides, she wants to be thankful but does not seem to rely on them.
Silvia, sometimes you cannot help acting so. Nevertheless, human beings are selfish and sacrifice is a sentiment not willingly accepted by people. You know, it is always easier to turn you eye to other side.
Paloma, you’re right. They are content when Jane avoids answering their inquiries about her past.
I get surprised when reading these last three chapters. It is the first time I see Jane behaving opposite to the way she used to do until now. Where is that Jane sincere and straight? (this is a rhetorical question). Wretched as she is, you notice she is concealing her real sentiments and keeps being untrue towards those who have rescued her from doom.
Jane has been arrogant since the beginning and she continues being so. She is very brave as she has chosen the unexplored way instead of the delirant loving life, but sinful, she would have had with Rochester. She is suffering, but it didn´t take long time to find a brand new life, with marvellous people who have accepted her without asking her anything nor trace of suspicion (excepts for Hannah, who plays the most realistic role at River´s). She has a confortable life, enjoying it as much as she can, being content though not happy. She shares everything with two sisters, but finds St John irremediably interesting, for his being distant and seeming to hide something inside.
I think St John had no vocation, since he has said that he hadn´t thought before of becoming priest, but he is so now despite not understanding very well the deep meaning of such a career. He is exagerated in his thoughts and in his acts, like punishing, (as Jane´s feeling when listening to his sermons), and that´s his insecurity. I think he is escaping from something, and he has used habits to conceal.
Reading your posts, I feel a bit stranger since I don’t judge Jane as severely as you usually do. From the very beginning I’ve been on her side and empathized with her. Now, I think she has, finally, found a bit of happiness, and I also believe she deserves it. She hasn’t committed any sing, and has never hurt anyone, except, perhaps, her aunt Reed, but this happened a long time ago and Mrs. Reed had it well deserved. Jane is, basically, a good person, with some defects and also dreams, as every one of us, but she is not a bad person. When you have been hurt in life, as she has been, it becomes normal that you should build a high defensive wall around yourself. Who hasn’t done it? I cannot see any wrong in her behaviour in Manor House. For the first time, since Helen died, she has found some friends, and not only that, also two soul mates. Being among your equals, among people you can understand and, even more important, who can understand you, so that you feel relaxed and not condemned, is one of the most important things in life. Jane has, finally, and after a great deal of suffering, got it, and, as a result, she is happy, as much as she can, given her situation, and is enjoying. What’s wrong with that?
Only to say that I was searching in Google -descartes joven pascal-, to look for some details of the play, and surprisingly enough I found that the third result was our thread from 'EOI Goya Theatre Club'!!!
Paloma, I don´t think Jane is a bad person at all! But neither is she as good as we thought... which makes she a real person. Don´t you think?
Elena, we are becoming famous in the network!!
Since we talk about the theory of the woman in the athic (is this the proper name??) I see examples everyday! Both in fiction and real life!!
Elena, you have to get accostumed to be well known: 5ªB, today the blogs, tomorrow the world!
What is the next composition about? I´ve forgotten to ask you before!
http://www.march.es/conferencias/Resumen.asp?Id=737
Lectures at Fundación Juan March:
1. "Shakespeare y su tiempo" - 31st March, 7.30 p.m. By Ángel Luis Pujante.
2. "La obra de Shakespeare" - 2nd April, 7.30 p.m. By Ángel Luis Pujalte. (A pity, the same day as some of us are going to the theatre)
Chapter 31
During her first class at Morton, twenty little girls, some of them rough and the others docile, Jane feels degraded. She could, at this very moment, be living in France as Mr Rochester’s mistress, being a slave, fevered with delusive bliss an hour (the key point in my opinion.) Instead of that, she is a free and honest village schoolmistress, and she thanks God for His guidance. What’s more, being her duty to develop her pupils’ capacities, she thinks that in a few months she will be able to succeed, the progress substituting gratification for disgust.
As for Mr St John, he confesses that he made a mistake entering the ministry, and that that monotonous new life has wearied him to death. He needing a more active life, God sent an errand to him, as a result of that, he decided to become a missionary, despite his father’s opposition; and now, his father having died, he is going to leave Europe to the East.
A new character, Miss Oliver, favoured in the gifts of fortune as well as in those of nature, invites St John to visit her father; despite her insistence, he will refuse. Mr St John has been curbing his feelings in Miss Oliver’s presence. Jane comprehends what Diane said when she designated her brother “inexorable as death”.
Paloma, I am not against Jane though I agree with María, Jane is not an angel at all and her pride is specially remarked the time she spends within Manor House.
Elena, what an amazing discovery! However, I am not surprised for we are at the top of culture ;-)
Luis, you are quite good when summing up chapters is concerned. I sympathy with St. John, since in spite of his good actions, he cannot bear such “passive” a life and wish for something else. I am glad to find out that he is going to “follow where the airy voices lead”, disregarding everything else which seems to be of no use in his pursuit of happiness.
I can see we are getting a little bit lazy with this thread. So let us give it a big leap!
Jane seems to be unwilling to accept her new condition even though circumstances should grant her tranquillity and peace as it happened when she was it Thornfield and just before getting to know Mr. Rochester. I dare say Jane is rather similar to St. John, pursuing an "active" life
I have enjoyed today’s class, mainly because I picked up the next useful message: If you have and objective, go for it and, provided you struggle to get it, you will succeed or be rewarded someday despite the fact that there is always something you will have to sacrifice so as to reach such a dream. This is motivation, is it not? :-)
Roberto, I think Jane has a fresh spirit, and non-conformism. She has usually been content, but she wants to be happy, she is ambituous in some way. The same as St John. Both are willing to sacrifice their "tranquil" life for getting a brand new one, brigther and worthwile.
As for the lesson learnt today I agree with you. Life is sacrifice, but all depends on your willingness to lose things and obtain others.
From my point of view, as I said in another thread some time ago, women are worried about many things that men don´t care at all. Women figth for men (as Cleapatra does), want to be at home with children, are worried about beauty... That´s why women are behind men yet. The problem is not that women have not objectives, but lots of them, which makes us look away reaching the presidency of United States of America. Those who are out of that are called heroines.
Hi Maria and Roberto! It's great that you wrote something here - I was feeling sick today so I could not attend the lesson and thus I can have an idea of what you were talking about. Jane is very impressing. I already said that I could hardly do what she did - going away from Mr Rochester's side. This was heroic! And also quite foolish - without much money or acquaintances... What a woman!
I like your definition of heroines, Maria.
By the bye, talking of heroines, I read a very interesting interview to Blanca Portillo (Hamlet, Matadero) in "Mujer de hoy". This is the link.
http://www.hoymujer.com/trabajo/Blanca,Portillo,Esto,agota,76070,02,2009.html
What she says has very much to do with your comment on women achieving objectives, Maria.
As I am doing chapter 32 on wednesday, I will comment what I've liked most in it.
Jane mentions that she is visiting some farmers (parents of her scholars) and that the consideration she treated them with elevated them in their own eyes and therefore benefited them. Very true. This recalls Pygmalion's story.
I also like when she tells us about her distressing dreams where she and Mr Rochester are reunited and she loves him and is loved by him. This shows she is human, and could not leave him without consequences...
The description of Miss Oliver is very accurate. Indeed, I think I know quite a few Misses Oliver. "She was very charming, in short, even to a cool observer of her own sex like me; but she was not profoundly interesting or thoroughly impressive".
And ultimately, what a great time is Jane having while she speaks to St John in the end of the chapter!! In my opinion, she is enjoying the fact she is now an equal to St John and keeps somehow teasing him regarding Miss Oliver...
A very interesting chapter, don't you think?
Anyway, do you think Jane is being bitchy when describing Miss Oliver?
Elena, on wednesday we are doing chapter XXXI, so you have to wait for monday to do yours, OK?? I have not read chapter XXXII yet, so I can´t answer your question.
I´ll also read Portillo´s interview so as to compare her opinion of heroines to mine. Thanks a lot!
I´ve enjoyed reading all your comments, but can´t answer all of them i´ll just say somethings I´ve been thinking about.
María, you are quite right in your definition of women versus abjectives, and it´s good to have our personal ones even if they are not "heroic" or fantastic, but please, let´s have SOME and work towards it, the difficulty I find currently is that diversification of objectives makes many women unhappy most of the time because if we follow one we miss another and so on and so forth...
Paloma, we all know that you like Jane and I do too, but I see her..she is proud and she has a very annoying way of saying things to people, considering only her point of view of the issue, not the other person´s; take the questioning. St John, very naturally, wants some answers...well she decides not to tell and she does not. Don´t you think they deserve the truth? Why would they force her to go back with Mr. Rochester and throw her in the arms of sin????
St John: I find him very interesting as a character. Do you remember that last year I said that the only thing that really affected a Man was God? I had forgotten that St John was such a good example of this!!! He is guided by our Lord, indeed but I cannot associate Jesus with the intensity St John puts on Him!!! Ok I know Jesus said "..leave everything and follow me.." but I do not think he meant it literally, humanity would disappear!!! In my opinion Jane has something of St John´s character in hers, she can be quite determined nd this lack of pliability is what I find disturbing because I associate it with obtinacy. Roberto has mentioned the similarity too, but you focussed it on their activity, I think, with which I agree, laziness is a sin, after all.
Luis, I agree with Roberto, you summarize very well, now try to give us your opinion, that is what I´m interested in, your minds and what you have inside, I think I´m a tremendous gossip!!!! How horrible!!!!!
Elena, thanks, I´ll check that and thanks also for your information about the blog, can we become famous??? DO WE DARE?????
night night
I absolutely agree with you, Carmen, regarding St. John, but I dare say more. Does, any of you, think that this priest has a vocation? I think not. I don’t know very much about Calvinism, of course, but if he has it, if, according with that doctrine, he is a good priest, then I’d much rather Catholicism. Mine is a Jesus of love and sweetness, I see Him like a god mother who demand a lot of you but with tenderness and very much love. I can’t see anything of this in St. John. I can’t see Jesus Christ in him, neither His love. In my opinion his is a quest for something different, I don’t know what; perhaps power, or perfection, not for love but for pride, too much pride. We in Spanish have a special word for this feeling: “soberbia”. In fact this is a deadly sin (in English it is called pride, and I want to make it clear that I’m speaking about something worse). A good Christian is supposed to be humble, and St. John is not. I think he wants to be a saint, but not for love for Jesus, but for being “in the list”, for being one of the Chosen ones. In short, having neither love not humility, Can, any human being, be, not only a priest but also just a Christian at all?
Thanks Maria for the info, I'll wait till Monday ;)
In chapter 32, Jane will make Mr St John talk, because she is sure it would benefit him. We can not consider her to be a noisy parker but, in the end, we all know what Mr St John is like. What fevered a mind he has!
An excellent chapter; some paragraphs of it are to be savoured.
Chapter 31 grants us the other side of the coin when analyzing Jane’s character is concerned, corroborating our theory that she is not an “angel” at all despite the sympathy we all might feel for our heroine after her having been forced to turn away from Mr. Rochester’s side.
Honest that Jane is, we cannot help, however, noticing that she does not hesitate to lie about her real sentiments concerning her new situation as school mistress. In addition, by discovering some of her weaknesses, the fair portrait our mind had already framed of Jane confident, independent and plain has been betrayed. Insincerity, envy and pride seem to rule now her behaviour, making the reader disappointed in some way before such an improper behaviour. Thus, I wonder again, who really is Jane Eyre like?
Today, we have disscussed about Jane's “childish” description of love:
“I shall never more know the sweet homage given to beauty, youth, and grace—for never to any one else shall I seem to possess these charms.”
However, love might be what Shakespeare said in a sonnet of his that some of you already know:
…
Love's not Time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks
Within his bending sickle's compass come:
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,
But bears it out even to the edge of doom.
...
Elena, you are right. Jane is rather cool when analyzing other women. However, she always thinks herself right. Does she not?
Carmen, Do yo think it is women's fault or men's? I mean the fact that women have no objectives.
Paloma, I think he is not only trying to find his real vocation but also he wants to avoid temptation.
Hi everybody.
After reading Chapter XXXII, I came to the conclusion that St. John begins to feel a strange atraction towards Jane, don´t you think so?. It´s possible you think that´s nonsense but what about those sentences?: "You are original and not timid. There is something brave in your spirit, as well as penetrating in your eye"......"I watch your career with interest, because I consider you a specimen of a diligent, orderly, energetic woman: not because I deeply compassionate what you have gone through, or what you stil suffer". In my opinion, Mr. Rivers admires Jane´s way of being. We must remember that he is the living image of the coldness, he´s got a rocky personality and maybe Rossamond´s character, full of softness and charm, doesn´t make him happy enough. He is a man who is used to living a hard existence, full of austerity and privations, that is, the same way of living than Jane. As summary, both personalities have been shaped in similar way, so maybe the atraction is possible between them. What do you think of it?.
I fully agree, I had the same feeling when reading this chapter. Jane would make a perfect wife for such a stubborn and determined missionary.
But then, I’m afraid that Jane is not interested in such a visionary priest when she still has Mr. Rochester in her heart.
I spite of the fact that agree with Roberto to a certain extent, and in spite of the fact that yesterday in class Carmen made us see his, and also hers, point very clearly, I still want to take up the cudgels on behalf of Jane. I could say a lot of things about her past, her fight against adversity etc. But I’m going to say only one thing: those of you who are free of fault in that sense who threw the first stone. Seriously, can, any of us, say he has never felt superior to others for some reason? Can, any of us, say he has never felt degraded doing something, living somewhere or being among certain kind of people? I didn’t like Jane’s attitude and feelings but I must recognice she is sincere with herself and very human too. I’m afraid sometimes we are too much strict judges. Please don’t get angry with me, I’m not saying this as a reproach to anyone, I know our task is analyse everything and to judge every behaviour and character, and I like very much the way in which we are doing it, I’ve never had done anything similar before. What I’m trying is only to take a different point of view.
If all of us agree, what are we going to speak about?
Regarding Jane’s feelings towards Mr. Rochester, which we were analysing yesterday, I’d also like to give my point of view. In my opinion there are two words in the text very important: might y perhaps. Jane knows Mr. Rochester’s character and his weakness too, she knows what he is able to do or how he usually behaves when he is disappointed. It’s not surprising she supposes that he might, perhaps, take the wrong way, that of the sin, and consequently to go to hell. Carmen told us yesterday Jane should do something to help him to avoid this destiny but, What? I’ve been thinking about this and I haven’t found any solution, Have you?
Hi! Could anyone tell me what's the topic for next wednesday composition? The exhibition 'La sombra'??? Thanks!!
you have to compare both Jane´s life and character when living in the different houses, focusing on The Rivers´.
I also agree with The Bandit, however, let me analyze why Mr. Rivers might prefer Jane as his companion for the missionary merchandise. Beautiful, wealthy and sprightly as Miss Oliver is, she does not realize that Mr. Rivers is not interested in such an easy conquering though he be tempted by it; What motivation can you find when pursuing something if the aim itself may be granted to you doing nothing. On the other hand, Jane seems to sympathy with his authentic objectives, besides, he is attracted by her independent, plain and straight behaviour.
Paloma, we are at liberty to write expressing what we really think about the novel, and I completely agree with you that it is always better to have different perspectives by discussing any issue. Nevertheless, I believe Jane is not conscious at all concerning her own character and how “cruel” she might act even though she considers herself right and honest when doing it so.
Thanks for the info, Roberto!
I think there is no attraction between Mr Rivers and Jane, though they are intrigued (in an intellectual way) the one by the other. Maybe being conscious of their similarities, they sense that knowing a little bit more about the other they may get to know their own selves better. Do you think this is an outlandish theory? :)
Mr Rivers likes the part of Jane he himself has... the stubbornness and the intelligence. But what of the girlish, sensitive Jane who likes being amongst her sisters?
Well, after reading all these interesting posts I must say that I see most of you have points, now let´s have mine: The bandit says that St John has been attracted by Jane and I think so too, but is it a physical one like the one he feels for Miss Oliver?? Not at all, their is more an intellectual meeting point that he seems to see, I´m not so sure she does. Elena very accurately notices that he doesn´t like the sisterly Jane. This brings me round to what Paloma mentions about St John´s character, what does he want or expect from Jesus? How can he be so painfully correct in all his habits and actions? He seems so much to lack those qualities of goodness, mercy, sympathy and empathy which we value, very particularly, in Cristians and particularly in priests! Roberto explains very well what St.John wants of a companion or lover but, quite honestly, what he wants is a nun!!!
Paloma insists that Jane is a good girl and that we have all felt superior sometimes, me OF COURSE!! I´ve always admitted to being a sinner!!!! but, then, I´ve admitted it, she finds no fault or criticism against her own person, it is always the others that seem to be the mistake-makers, and when she admits anything like "reader I forgave him" she is still doing something correct and Cristian, don´t you think? My dear Miss Eyre, why didn´t yo go to the police when someone was stabbed in the middle of the night???? or runa away???? Is it because you were fascinated by the powerful and rich Mr. Rochester?? At least Lizzy bennet refused Mr. Darcy (very silly, I have to say) you have accepted Mr. Rochester without a blink. Ah! and when Mrs. Fairfax tries to warn you that things could not be as cear as you thought what was your reaction? You were deeply offended!!!
Here I am in the North...of Spain and it´s raining, raining, raining..Where are you all? Any fun? Any secrets..any........
Night night
Hello. Good interpretations of the chapter.I also think MrStJohn chooses Jane because of her fortitude and strength,in his mind is to achieve a difficult enterprise and he finds in Jane a good companion to carry it out with.Of course he could fall in love with Miss Oliver ,she is a loving girl but not at all prepared to acomplish his desires(as a priest,I mean).
Concerning Jane´s pride,I think we usually envy people when they show
such self-confidence,because we end up feeling insecure ourselfs in front of them.
Chapter 33
St John is paying a visit to Jane. After a superfluous conversation, St John recounts a tale, from a letter that one Mr Biggs had written to him, about a girl named Jane Eyre. St John producing a slip of paper, with the name of Jane Eyre on it, which he had torn off at the margin of the portrait-cover days before, Jane has to admit that the heroine of the tale is she herself. Moreover, Mr Briggs is looking for Jane Eyre, as her uncle is dead, and she has inherited all his property. Therefore, Jane Eire is rich now. She is worth twenty thousand pounds. Jane tells us that a fact like this can not be comprehended all at once. Jane looking aghast, St John starts laughing. Had he ever done it before? St John tries to leave now, but Jane prevents him from doing that. Jane asks St John why Mr Briggs has written to him. St John explains that his mother had to brothers, one who was clergyman, and the other, John Eyre, lived in Madeira; that late August, Mr Briggs had informed them of the dead of their uncle, who, having had a quarrel with his brother in law, had left his property to the clergyman’s orphan daughter, Jane Eyre. A few weeks later, Mr Briggs wrote them again saying that Jane Eire is missing. It is the slip of paper that is the connection in this story. Therefore, St John, Diana, Mary, and Jane are cousins. Being very happy with her unexpected family, she resolves to divide her fortune by four, and give one part to each of them. I could not agree more with her, could I?
Sorry. I made a mistake
It says: ..the heroine of the tale is she herself
It should say: ...the heroine of the tale is herself
you have a point in saying that, to a certain extent we are irritated because self-confident people make us feel insecure, the question is where does Jane get her courage from? why does she seem to act well? does she follow the dictates of Christians? not of Christs representatives, St John being one of them, of course.
Luis, I would like you to give your opinion about the chapter morre than merely summarising it, the summary is good, but we are interested in what you think..
INFORMATION
Tomorrow night on TV2 there is a film based on "A Woman of no Importance" a play written by oscar Wilde. It´s on at 1am, I think, but I´m not too sure, record it in English if you can or watch it!!
do you think it is a huge coincidence that Diana, Mary and St. John were Jane´s cousins? Fate or coincidence? Maybe we must think Jane Eyre is only a novel but for us is more something, is a our "relative" "friend" "neighbour"?, isn´t it? For that i think is her fate. At last, it seems she is lucky
Hi,
I have been thinking about why St. John prefers Jane instead of Miss Oliver and I have come to the conclusion that St. John´s behaviour is quite selfish. In my opinion, St John thinks Jane belongs to an inferior social class (in some way she is treated as a servant) and, in theory, she is used to be biddable, dutiful and obedient, that is, the perfect wife, on the contrary to Miss Oliver who belongs to a superior class, surrounded by wealth, without almost any duties in her daily life in which she hasn´t to sacrifice herself for anybody. It is a person willing to make sacrifices that St John wants close to him. That person is Jane. Don´t you think so?.
Of course,Bandit,I think I already wrote it in a previous comment().Despite being easier to fall in love with Miss Oliver,he is stubborn and moderate enough to take the correct decision to fulfill his ultimate aim concerning God.
The question is,why does he feel such a need to please God? Is it that he has something to redeem...?
Maybe a notorious happen to forget???
We´ll see.
Perhaps, the question should be “what do make people feel confident?” Those people, like Miss Oliver, do not make me either uncomfortable or inferior for I cannot value such a perfection which has been granted as a consequence of the standards established by society. I prefer our heroine who has to struggle so as to keep going only by means of real qualities.
Bandit, I am afraid I do not share your point of view. I believe Mr. Rivers sees just temptation and lechery in Miss Oliver but purity in Jane. So, Carmen might be right by saying that he wants a nun.
Chapter 33th proves I wasn’t so in the wrong direction when trusted Jane so much. I’ve quoted several lines in the chapter but before saying anything here I’d rather wait to this afternoon class. I’d like to say only one thing: I’m not sure whether I were in Jane’s place I would act in the same way. Avarice is a deadly sin and I’m not sure how would I act faced up to the temptation.
A week without writing here has passed and I have to do a lot of catching up!!!
First of all, Roberto, women have objectives, but those which we are to have as women. The capacity of sacrifice is in our nature. But our sacrifices are just our fault, because we choose to look after our children instead of being on a plane, visiting every country for work, or going shopping or to the surgeon to give a good impression, or visiting our old aunts who are in the residence each week, and having a work which let me be at home, where we have many things to do as well.
Women are going away from this usual reality as time goes by, but it is something inherent in us, more than in men, since the beginning of humanity. That´s why I say that even currently women who don´t worry about usual things women worry are heroines. It´s not men´s fault.
As for St John and Jane: both are capable of sacrificing their love. St John loves Rosamond, but changes this love for God´s. On the other hand, Jane loves Rochester, but leaves him because to stay would mean to be a sinner, which doesn´t fit at all with her principles. So, it is God, principles and their obstinacy that unite both characters. Don´t you think?
As for Paloma´s question: "Jane should do something to help Rochester to avoid this destiny..." (5th March). My answer: Were Jane right, pressuposing Mr Rochester´s unhappiness because of her leaving, the solution of the problem would be simply her coming back to Thornfield, wouldn´t it?
Secondly, according to Carmen, priests should not get married because their objective is God and families would distract them from their "holy mission". But I´m thinking that not only do priests have this priority (job, in this case), but all men. I´m connecting it with what I´ve said before when comparing Jane to St John. St John, as a priest, as a worker, has an objective which isn´t but his work itself, putting it before his love for the lazy, unworried, pretty Rosamond. But it´s the same as those men who get married but don´t put it to good use, so to say, men who don´t love their wives nor help them. They only want their shirt to be clean and ironing and the meal to be ready at the hour o´clock sharp. They marry a servant (a nun in priests´ case) nor a woman. So the job as the main objective in life is a matter of male´s nature, they being either saints or sinners. Am I exaggerating...? But actually that´s what The Bandit has also said. Jane is more like a servant than Rosamond...
Finally, I agree with those who think Jane´s self-confidence to be quite annoying. I insist: she is arrogant since the beginning and will always be so!
Jane cannot go back to Thornfield, if she did, she would sin herself, she has run away precisely to avoid this possibility. I think she cannot take this way, Maria.
From the very first time I read a book by Jane Austen, I felt astonished at the judgments that the characters were able do. The same has happened to me again reading this novel, and again and again when I read your comments. Carmen has told us this afternoon in class about people like me, unable to have such penetration in other people souls, characters and minds. That is, perhaps, the reason why I’m the only one who likes Jane. I can only appreciate things which are really evident as the fact that St, John believes he can succeed there where so many have failed, which seems to me more pride than saintliness, and that Jane is as human as ourselves, with some faults, virtues, dreams…
María, I am really disappointed with such a description of men’s behaviour. I sincerely consider it topical and unjust. On the other hand, we already know that Mr. Rivers just see passion in Miss Oliver, thus, he is not in love with her but afraid of falling into temptation. However, I can see your point when saying both of them turn away from their notion of sin. :-)
Dear Paloma, I really like Jane though we know that nobody is perfect even if you are plain, pure and innocent.
What I was trying was to criticize women and not men with my comment. Anyway, Roberto, you have to say what has offended you so much... However, I didn´t mean EVERY men. There are exceptions, like you, I pressume... Don´t be angry with me!!
I agree with you that Rosamond is for Mr River a delicious poison, which makes him be totally frightened.
Paloma, I don´t know how this amazing story is going to end yet, but now I wish Jane would come back to Thornfield, as I see that difference between St John and Jane: the latter is more human, so she should go toward her happiness, which is not but together with her dear Edward... Am I very much mistaken??
María, I beg your pardon if I sounded rude when writing my last comment. I did not do it on porpuse. I meant that I really dislike women believing every man to behave in the same way.
:-)
Honestly, I also thought of Jane "buying" her new family with so generous an act. She appears to be very desperate for having one brother and two sisters -St John, Diana and Mary-, which she lacked when living at Gateshead with John, Eliza and Georgiana.
Were you rich, would you stop working as Jane? I think I would stop working for "others" but I would build "my own job", with much spare time.
Hello mates it has been impossible for me to go to the EOI I am completly out of work and yesterday a lumbago installed in my back and I am really bad. I hope this backache finish soon. Well, all your comments are very interesting and all of yours had different point of view about Jane and her circunstances and her character. I enjoy very much reading all of them, as Carmen said you are the best. This week end I will try to read the most I can because I need it too much. Have a good week end I hope to see you on Monday. Kind regards.
I have really enjoyed myself reading your comments!!! unfortunately I have to put the light out because Magdalena has asked to sleep with me right now when I was about to answer.
Paloma, I´m sure I have not said:"Carmen has told us this afternoon in class about people like me, unable to have such penetration in other people souls",you must have misunderstood me!!!! The two observations you have made of St John and Jane are probably in the mind of everyone, so they do not show any possible mistake of yours, in short I do not understand what you are trying to say. I think you´ve made some accurate remarks about the characters and some surprising ones given that you have had some experience in life.
María, yours is good, mature, and well thought out, I wonder why Roberto is somewhat surprised, men are always after the same thing...sorry, as María says there are exceptions...few, though, so now you know me Roberto!! I share María´s point of view. I agree with María in that Jane has to fight for Mr. Rochester, otherwise she would be cold, like him!!! Both of them are very similar but they are radically different in their approach to love, Jane is warm and wants the nearness of physical presence, touch, company, etc. St John rejects, shuns this, he voluntarily and for no reason at all (his missionary work is not going to produce much, I fear)willingly abandons the certainty of basic love for prospectic fulfilment, for himself, it is so selfish that it is surprising that Jesus has chosen him, don´t you think??
As to María´s question about the reaction of people who are suddenly made rich, I certainly would stop working as a teacher, but I would do some work and without a doubt i would share my money and use to help others, Paloma, not being a miser at all, i´ve always being of the opinion that it is sharing and giving that makes one happy, not keeping it to yourself.
TITLE OF NEXT COMPOSITION:
"The effect of coming into a fortune on a human being: Hhow do you see this in the novel Jane Eyre?"
I don´t know what could be my reaction if I suddenly became rich. I have thought about it a lot of times: if I won the Lotery I would stop working, of course, I would share the money with my family, I would pay the mortgage, I would buy a lot of things, I would travel around the world...But you never know it until it happens to you because sometimes money changes people. Don´t you think so? As Carmen says, Money gives you Power, but sometimes it also gives you stupidity. I think that it´s a big responsibility the way you use that power and not everybody are ready for it. People will always want to take advantage of your situation.
Carmen, what a pity!
Chapter 33 showing Jane at his best, I enjoyed such an “absurd” situation as the couple is involved in. I could not help laughing when taciturn Mr. River vexes Jane, testing her patience once and again. However, when both become serious, I got impressed before so accurate a summary of Jane’s life, very well abridged in my opinion.
As to Jane’s having discovered that wealthy has been granted to her, I notice how uninterested she seems to be in wishing to know more about her uncle in spite of the amiable sentiments shown towards the living relatives; for it is John Eyre who made the effort to find out Jane so as to make her conscious that she was not alone in the world.
Of course Carmen I didn’t mean you told my name. What I was trying to explain is that you were speaking, in general, about people who I think are like I am. I have a friend, her name is also Paloma and she lives in Valladolid, she is one of those people who when first meet a person says how the person is, and she never is wrong. When I lived in Valladolid I used to trust absolutely in her when she said how somebody was. You, Carmen, always see in people things I haven’t notice, and when you say it I realize you are quite right. Sometimes I also get something, I’m not stupid (or at least I like thinking I am not), but most of the time things are very simple for me.
Regarding money, I also think I would share it with other people. I believe I know myself, I’m not happy keeping anything only for me, in addition I was educated by the Daughters of the Charity in a convent school and taught to share everything you have. But I agree with something we said in class some time ago: you never know how one person is going to react faced with a situation. Look at Jane, she used to say one thing and now she is doing something different.
You are quite generous as well! The fact is that now we could share things and we don´t do anything, only waiting for becoming rich! I´m looking forward to seeing how Jane is going to waste the money!
María you´ve got the point!!!
Why do we wait "to be rich" to share just a small portion?Don´t we have already enough to give it now?
I´m sure most of us do and we don´t share it.What is more,is not only money what is needed,but our hands.
Let´s face it! Many of us would change in a hideous way if we were rich!!!
As to Jane´s issue,she has always been poor and now she shares everything,what else could we ask for???
Don´t you think we are being too harsh with her?
It’s just as well someone supports me!!!! Thank you Silvia. I’m was starting to think I was “ rarita”.
I think that sometimes, the less people have, the more they are willing to give... Because when you are rich, it's easy to end up thinking you're never rich enough, isn't it? So yes, I believe there's merit in what Jane has done, though I still see she's kind of buying a family - But, were I Jane, I would do the same - In the end, that (a family) is what she's been most lacking of, don't you think?
Hello mates, I dare to say each person is different about money. I had known people very rich and very stingy and people poor and generous so I think it is not a cuestion of criticize both behaviour, another different thing is when you are poor and you get easy money from the lottery or an inheritance, generally the human reactions are completly different, there are some people that their life continue more or less the same, they continue working and so on, and there are another people that spend all the money in necesary and superficious things and at the end they come back to the same situation than before getting the money but Jane had had a hard life and in my opinion she never was interested in money, she could stay with Mr. Rochester and she left him and now in another situation she acts with generosity with her new family, I like Jane very much, she is a good girl with faults but a good girl.
You are right, Elena. Most of times it is not the richest people that share their wealth. As for what Jane´s done, are you sure you´d have also done so? To give so much money to your family or to whoever, usually has the result of their being grateful all their live. It would be a kind of false relationship. At least, were I Diana, Mary or St John, I wouldn´t daresay my opinion or contradict Jane´s desires, because I would have a debt with her for life.
And what about the changing of the Moor House´s rooms?? Don´t you think that Jane has taken the liberty of doing her will without any worry, despite of not being her house?? What would you think if someone, of whom you have accepted such an amount, changed the house where you´ve lived all your life?? I wouldn´t like it at all. How could they open their mouths after having received four thousand pounds?? They have been bougth.
I´m not meaning that it is a bad idea to share the money with your family (I´ll do it, don´t misunderstand me), but The Rivers are not her family yet in the sense of confidence, unity and love, but in the sense of mere blood connection. That´s the difference and that´s why I think she is "buying" them. What do you think?
From first half of chapter 34
Despite having succeeded in teaching young girls, becoming rich, getting a family, sharing her inheritance with her cousins, doing up Moor House, Jane is not the girl she used to be. St John has not kept his word of treating Jane like his sisters; he continually makes little chilling differences between her and them. Jane is under pressure. Some Jane’s thoughts will prove what I say: “St John is not a man to be lightly refused”, “…he acquired a certain influence over me that took away my liberty of mind”, “As for me, I daily wished more to please him….” The paragraph of these last words is to be carefully read. Another thought is: “I never thought of resisting him”, as far as prolonging still further her Hindustani language classes is concerned.
It is obvious that St John is a well educated person, but neither reading at meals or finishing conversations by taking a book is polite. St John hardly laughs. In my opinion, St John is not happy with what he does; only when he has been asked do a hard task he has looked happy. Is St John harassing Jane? If not, at least, he is taking advantage of her.
And to end this half chapter, St John tells Jane that she should give a religious orientation to her life. I think that being Mr Rochester in her mind, Jane will be able to get away from this agony.
Maria I also thought Jane was not being cautious when she started redecorating the Rivers´ home, but finally I understood she did it guided for the cheerfulness she felt having at last a family.
Of course the Rivers are her family!!! Along the few months they have shared their lives she has been the happiest girl. In all likelihood Diana and Mary know more about her personality and her needs than anybody else.
Bear in mind that in Mr Rochester’s house she just had Mrs Fairfax and Adéle which were far away of a confident for Jane.
Jane is now receiving all the love and cares she needed.
Do not forget the large similarities to the two ladies, everything seems perfect now,don´t you think so?
Your words against Jane make me think you are being “poisonous” just to tease us.
Hahaha…
Poor Jane! She is paying our writing longings.
Do you really think her so twisted to all that???
I don´t.
Feel happy for her.
You cannot imagine what has happened to me. after half an hour of a very long post I´ve lost it!! My computer is not working well and it becomes disconnected from the the net without warning. I´ll try to summarize what i had written.
María is totally right in finding it remarkable that Jane redecorates their house without permission, why? she´s bought herself the right to do it with her generosity, in the same way as when she says she wants to live with Diana and Mary in the house!!! She directs their lives with is precisely what rich people do, doesn´t the duke do it in Measure for Measure?? People say that the rich domineer and want to manage others less fortunate, and we see that they do it!!! Then, be carful, because if you ever come into a fortune you´ll end up like that.
Jane is a "good girl", but she does not even ask about her uncle!!! we know that she hasn´t been used to having a family but she does say that she she wants one alive, teh rest does not concern her.
Luis much better because you´ve given your opinion and what you point out about St John is very interesting indeed.
Am I poisonous, Silvia??? I do like creating polemic!! ahahaha! But what I say is what I really think, without any intention of teasing you!!
I like Jane in many things but in others I can´t stand her, I must admit. However I continue believing that a family is not got in only ten months however much have they understood each other very well. In fact, the only family Jane would desire to have is Mr Rochester, despite of feeling good now with The Rivers... I see it like a kind of conformism. So I don´t feel happy for her (sorry Silvia), because were she to be far from her love for life, never would she be happy. (Too many inversions??)
After reading chapter XXXIV I´m just thinking St John to be crazy!!
Hello mates, I agree with Maria, it is always the same, now we see what St. Jhon wants, "to dominate Jane in all" and poor Jane she can't resist him, I suposse that women many times do the same that Jane and it is really a high mistake, Jane is thinking in Mr. Rochester and maybe she changes her's mind about her new family because at least she is not happy and she doesn't feel loved as she would like.
Yes, I also think that Jane, resolute and strong as she is, is very much concerned with being loved by her new family... In fact, she cannot be contented with her new sisters' love, warmer and more real and she must search for St John's poisonous love too... which I'm afraid she can never reach. However, we must concede that in last monday's chapter Jane acknowledged that, in front of strong characters, she could not behave in a mild way: it was total rebellion or complete submissiveness for her... It is true though what was said in class, that total rebellion tends to go with femenine characters and submissiveness with masculine...
Elana I agree with you and i´ve liked your analyses very much, ooophs I´m not sure if I got that spelling right!!
I´ve enjoyed today´s discussion about Jane and St John. Really, if can make anyone believe that waht he is doing is wrong and moreover make him feel bad about it you have found..a slave! Beware of people like that, there are many and it´s not easy to recgnize them. Personally I´ve been caught by one or two!!
Jane, has the recipe for success with men. the good news is that we know it the bad one is whether a woman is capable of this sacrifice currently. By the by men are expected to do these sacrifices, are they? What do you have to say to this, Roberto??????
Alessandro, Ij´ve enjoyed reading about José Tomás very much, for me he has what a bullfighter has to have, the seriousness, the dignity, the silence, I´m glad I´ve had of living at his time.
now bed tomorrow I´m taking a train at 7...
It seems that St. John has the same idea about Jane’s qualities tan I. We are already three people: St. John, Silvia and me. Another different question is my opinion about the man. I must confess at first I thought him better than the others, for instance, Mr. Brockerhurst. However, in our last class couldn’t help thinking him even worse than the hated director of Lowhood.
In my last composition I had written St. John was, so far, the only man Jane had meet that had never asked her anything. My God! How mistaken I was! In the end he has been the one asking her the most: her freedom, her will, her soul…. And without giving her anything in return!
My mother always says the same thing, it’s quite difficult to translate a saying but I’m going to try it: From the docile ox God save me that from the brave one I will already save myself. She is used to saying that because she mistrust very much people like St. John who appears to be one way and then are tyrants. I absolutely agree with Carmen: beware them (if you are able to recognize them soon enough)
Only one and last question, I’ve asked it to me a hundred of times and have never found the answer: Why are all most people with religious power so convinced that God is concerned about what happen in people’s beds?
I write this here because I know you don’t go to the film club very often. I just come from the cinema, I’ve seen Gran Torino. Please, go and see it, if you haven’t done it yet. It’s the best film I’ve seen for ages. I’ve liked it far more than Slumdog Millionaire. I’ve seen it in VO. Because a friend of my daughter’s told us the Chinese people are very badly dubbed. I hope you like it as much as I do.
It seems as if it was many a time since I joined the blog for the last time and I was anxious to answer your posts all. Thus, having done a little bit of catching up with the novel, finally am I able to give my point of view.
- Paloma:
Do not make yourself unhappy, everyone being different, of us all have our perception of things. On the other hand, were I to become wealthy, I would be kind to those people who have been grateful to me as Jane does.
- Sivlia:
It is our selfish nature that make us behave in such a way. People believe themselves right when showing their beliefs, though, it is quite easy to speak about any issue when you are not involved in it.
- Elena:
I’m afraid I do not agree with you. Jane just wants to express gratitude to her new relatives and I wonder, what else but material things do you use so as to show such a sentiment? Becoming rich, she cannot help associating happiness with comfort and luxury.
- Mercedes:
You are right. Your comment brings back for me the well known quote of Wilde’s: “there are two tragedies in life, one is not getting what one wants and the other is getting it”.
- María:
I would have done the same. Jane has a right to do it so (redecorating the cottage). She sharing her wealth, River’s must accept such a gift.
- Luis:
You have hit the nail on the head. Jane is facing her antagonist (please read my next post)
- Carmen:
Jane does not do it on purpose, I do not think she really wants to manage others less fortunate but making them content, however, I guess you cannot have one thing without the other.
Precisely, Jane is not interested at all in her uncle, showing therefore that she is selfish in some way.
I would dare to do such sacrifices if the person deserves it so.
Obviously disappointed with Jane by expecting her to be his equal, St. John has misunderstood our heroine. The latter, however, endeavours so as to make him content even though you may perceive she is just deceiving herself. It is a pity St. John should be so extremist in his beliefs; for he seems to help Jane in her forlorn condition, encouraging her to embrace that attitude which makes you feel better when an unpleasant task, which requires a huge effort to carry it out, must be done.
St. John having a talent to control others’ will because of both his physical perfection and “moral superiority of mind”, ungovernable as Jane is, gradually does she perceive how she is being tamed. Thus, it is high time she faced her antagonist. By the way, do you remember her first meeting with Mr. Rochester? She told us then that she would have not dared to behave as she did if the former had not been rude, unattractive and vulnerable, so to say, opposite to her. Now, she is on the spot.
I wonder why people like St John believe themselves right when trying to make you act as they think you should, as if they were more conscious about what we feel than ourselves. I do not mean that people may give you advice, that is another issue. Anyway, St. John only sees throughout his own perspective and it is so pitiful a weakness that make me distrust him. In the end, Jane is right in rejecting so unsuitable a proposal made by the missionary even though he be rather practical when giving his reason to act so. What a foolish! There is no defeating Jane.
I’ve read my last but one post and I’ve got really angry with my computer, since I have “Vista” it has grown an independent entity, the cursor moves through the screen where and whenever it wants. It is as if it had own will. I’m writing in a line and suddenly the text is written in another different, or everything fades. Yesterday I made several corrections and I’ve realized they are not in the posted text, for instance I put and “I” before couldn’t because the subject had disappeared, the "I" is not still there, does my cursor hate “I’s”? I also deleted an “all” but it is still there. Please do any of you know how to avoid this problem? I’ve lowered the sensitivity of the optical mouse but I haven’t got anything.
Roberto I’m really struck by your display of grammar in the previous posts. Reading them I’ve reviewed most of fourth year!
Mistake:
I meant "what a fool". Sorry.
Paloma. What I usually do is write my comment on Microsoft Word first, and when it is completed I copy it and paste it after on the blog itself.
Well, I'd like to qualify my last comment. I maintain that Jane does not have enough with her sister's love and that's why she cannot help but going after St John's. What I did not say is that I understand her willing to please him. It's instinctive to search the approval of others... and difficult to give up when necessary. I find myself in that plight many times!! I believe the main reason why Jane is having so hard a time to oppose St John relies in the fact he is not only the head of that particular River's family but also symbolizes God (as he reminds her frequently) ... So, well, it might not be that easy for her to reject his behaviour towards her, bearing in mind what a strong faith she has.
By the way, I particularly despise St John for using his standing supposedly near God as a means to threaten and convince Jane... That's so wicked!
St John´s problem is that he believes himself to be God. His way is the only one which drives to the heaven and those who avoid this way are lost sheeps that have to be put in a safe place, far from sin.
I completely agree that he behaves as a dictator. A tyranny which wraps his only idea of doing penitence, for seeing his sins forgiven. The issue which intrigues me the most is what sins he committed, that could explain so annoying a behaviour and so mistaken a chosen way.
From chapter 35
St John having deferred his departure to Cambridge, and despite the relationship between him and Jane is visibly normal- subtly normal, Jane remarks that St John has not forgotten that Jane said that she scorned his idea of love. Jane thinks that he has become no longer flesh but marble; that she is being harassed; that were she his wife, he would soon kill her without a drop of blood; that she is suffering a refined torture. Nevertheless, Jane makes an attempt to regain his friendship. Does Jane try to avoid making an eternal enemy of him? A verbal battle takes place. Once more, St John tries to convince Jane, but when Jane says that before leaving England she would know for certain whether she cannot be of greater use by remaining in it than by leaving it, St John asks her if she is going to seek Mr Rochester. The answer being positive, the battle is over.
It is in that evening reading and the following prayer that St John proves he is top-class in his job. Jane is touched by what he says, and at last awed. Jane is about to yield. St John surrounding her with his arm, she knows there is no love in it, for she already knows what to be loved is like. However, the one candle dying out, the room being fool of moonlight, Jane’s hart is beating fast. But suddenly she hears Mr Rochester’s voice showing her the path. Jane is full of energy; she tells St John to leave her and he obeys. He knows Jane is right. Jane is now relieved, but eager for the daylight.
Once more, I am full of admiration for Jane’s behaviour
Elena, well defended, and by the way you do not have that problem of pleasing with me, you must be on the way to sanity!!!!
Roberto, well done very well-organized ideas too, and now you are totally capble of expressing it in English, in good English.
María, I have also found myself thinking: what are you purging,St John? He seems to have the personality of a person who is divided between virtue and sin, I cannot quite make him out, why has he forced himself to take this way, the way of God? Surely because he likes manipulating people? Why didn´t he become a politician, a philospher, as more mundane options? Because these do not involve such direct power?
As to Jane there is much in what Elena has said about her willingness to please...I add UNMARRIED MEN, notice that she does not try to please Mr. Brocklehurst, unmarried men that notice her, is as if she weaves a rope around their necks... this is somewhat a frightening picture but we could give it a thought.
Paloma, I´m glad that you have found three people "..seems that St. John has the same idea about Jane’s qualities tan I. We are already three people: St. John, Silvia and me", I´d like to know what qualities you are alluding to because Silvia St John and you have not described Jane in the same way. If you mean that Jane has some good in her, I think you have a lot more thatn two supparters. Thanks for the information about Eastwood´s new film, they are going to watch it on the 25th but I´m afraid I won´t be able to join them, domestic responsabilities...f---!
Hello again, we are drawjing to an end in our novel and now that it I would like us to go back to the beginning..There was no possibility of taking a walk that day...and start asking ourselves what makes this novel special?
what have I enjoyed best?
Chapter 35th is amazing. It’s accurately described in it the perfect psychological ill treatment and the reaction of the person suffering it. I say this is the perfect kind of mistreatment because the person who ill-treat is universally acknowledged as a good man. It’s very difficult to prove this kind of poor treatment, even to yourself (I use this “you” meaning the person suffering it) In such a case you feel doubly suffering, first for the damage, second because you think you aren’t right, you must be depress or very susceptible, etc., in short “the blame is yours, he being so good a person!!!” In the end, Jane, as the rest of the women in her circumstances, still thinks St. John does everything for good purposes, and not for pure evilness. However, Jane is still able to catch partially the truth of her situation when he says “He is a good man and a great man; but he forgets, pitilessly, the feelings and claims of little people, in pursuing his own large views”. Little people? Large views?
Unfortunately this kind of man always succeeds, and this time it would have been the same but for the Providence saving her. My mother usually says: no sacrifice made in the name of your duty or what is correct to do remains without a reward. In escaping Mr. Rochester Jane appealed to her mother and, perhaps it’s her who is saving her now, in the very moment she is on the verge of falling into St. John paws.
Hi!
I leave here a link to the audio version of Barack Obama's recent interview in the show of Jay Leno. You may also find some videos. These are part1, part2 and part3.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h06_FFjAr9Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkWtNKk_3-s&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGNTVoN5BCw&feature=related
I found it very interesting, though the mixing of jokes and serious explanations about the crisis struck me as a bit forced and I think Obama found it a bit awkward ... What do you think?
I believe Jane to behave in so pleasing a way towards St. John not only because of what Elena has said but also because she is facing the sort of person she knows not how to deal with, so to say, when meeting “perfection” is concerned. I guess we all try to please these people as if we wanted to show that we might get a glimpse of such excellence sometimes. On the other hand, Carmen you are right, she seems willing to flatter unmarried men; however, is there anything wrong in that?
As for Carmen's question:
I have enjoyed the novel indeed, mainly because I sympathy with its main characters, who show both vulnerability and a sense of incomprehension making the world around them unable to accept them merely as they are, however, such condition does not prevent them from progressing in their pursuit of happiness. I really liked it as well, the fact that there is probably not any single character in the novel being either perfectly good (except Helen) or hideously evil (except Mr. Blocksheart); all of them share both characteristics. Finally, it was “funny” how Jane, always playing the role of judge and jury, does not use that talent so as to analyze herself and her own weaknesses. Don't we do the same in our own life?
And this is the 800th comment!!!
:-)
Amazing, is it not?
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