6 de octubre de 2008

"JANE EYRE" (Charlotte Bronte)

857 comentarios:

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Carmen dijo...

Paloma, I´ve liked your post very much, I think you have analysed jit very well when you point out the double distress of the maltreated woman at the hands of a so called "good man".
Roberto thanks for your words, you are very right there is very little of good or bad in these characters, and a lot of the two. This is why we like it because we can identify each other easily,which would not be so easy if they were either or.
800 hundred posts!!! We are wonderful, to think that we´ve been together for so long, that we´ve shared so much, that we have opened the computer so often to see, eagerly what was written...

Carmen dijo...

35, well St John is such a manipulator!!! I have come to be really angry with him, he seems to be to be the personification of all that i hate in a man. there is nothing worse for a man than not to be able to "swallow down the pill" of being rejected by a woman he happens to admire, it is so cheap, so vulgar, it shows such lack of manliness, if there is any of that left around here in our world!! and let me tell you this a quality wolen like to see in men. But St John´s petty quarrels and little rude behaviour is almost...gay.

Roberto dijo...

Paloma and Carmen, both of you are probably right in your analysis of St. John’s “misogynist” attitude towards Jane, however, it is our heroine who lets, somehow, such ill-treatment happen, since with no self-esteem at all when meeting beauty and distinction (either of mind or social status), Jane is unable to face these sort of people. That is the reason why she sympathized with Rochester from the very beginning, acknowledging that she would have not dared to act as she did had Rochester been handsome, polite and, in short, perfect.

María dijo...

It´s very interesting what all of you say! I think that Jane feels a deep respect for St John in the sense that she sees a kind of moral superiority in his nature. She admires that in a man, with such a self-confidence and strong objectives. However, she doesn´t fall in love with him because she needs to be near a person who is morally inferior, like Rochester. She likes being needed by Rochester -since she sees herself as a savour- but not by St John, who believes himself to be God and who only needs a woman as a servant, in a material, not spiritual, way.
Do you see what I mean? And if you agree, don´t you think it is once more her arrogance flowing? However, I understand her very well. It´s also very pleasant to see that your beloved man needs you desperately, isn´t it?

Elena Gil - 5B dijo...

I think Roberto has a point in saying Jane acts differently when opposed to such a perfect/handsome man as St John is... and Maria in saying that she feels secure with Rochester because of her own moral superiority. I find her rather uptight sometimes.

That is usual though, the first part I mean... when one finds himself talking to an attractive guy, one is never as natural as when talking to a plain one, don't you think? A friend of mine says the problem is that in the former case we keep evaluating ourselves during the conversation, and I believe he is right. To regain our spontaneity, we need to to lose conscience... and we usually do it by drinking, don't we?

Paloma dijo...

Roberto I think nobody has the blame for not having self-esteem. The mirror in which you look at yourself is distorted, but always because something has made it to be like that, generally the failure or others' opinions about you or your achievements. The lack of self-esteem is the saddest thing in the world, you cannot flee from yourself and, in addition, you are always trying to please people. A person without self-esteem is very easy to manipulate and also to ill-treat. Imagine, you are never sure about anything, you don’t trust yourself. You never let the miss treatment happen, you cannot help it, you don’t see any wrong in the other, the wrong is always in you.
Maria I cannot see what you mean, sorry, for me, Jane felt in love with Rochester not for the reasons you give, but for the fact that he was the first “man” she met, and, in addition, he gave her all what she needed at that time. Rochester changed Jane’s life, treated her as an equal, took her opinions and wishes into account, admired her and, even more important, as we have read in chapter 35th was after her in a way noticeable for everybody. For the very first time in her life he made her feel a real and alive woman. Do you know any young woman who can resist falling in love with such a man? Can you forget such a man and fall in love with someone like St. John? I think not
I really sorry I can't see any arrogance in her.

Carmen dijo...

I´ve liked all your comments, and you´ve reasoned them out really well. Paloma, I do see María´s point very much, i think Jane does feel superior to Rochester in a moral way and this makes her strong, she leaves him, on the other hand she does not have this superiority where St John is concerned and she accepts him, no María has a very strong point. Elena is absolutely right and i´ve liked the way you bring your point to real life, women feel like that and get drunk to forget beauty. Roberto you´ve also got near the point when you say that she is unable to come to terms when faced with beauty and it is because Rochester is ugly that she is relaxed with him. Good the blog wake and interesting.

Carmen dijo...

We are going to watch a film on Friday:
JANE EYRE
in the Salón de Actos at 15.50 and at 16.00. We´ve got the latest issue from the BBC, I hope you like it.
P.S. Sorry Rachel, I´ll lend it to you, but it seemed a pity not to wtch it when we are one chaoter away from the end!

María dijo...

Paloma, Jane might fall in love with Roch as he was the first man she met, but from then on there had to be more things. As she was knowing him she felt this superiority I was referring to. She felt useful to him, needed by him. Her innocent and uncorrupted nature catched Rochester´s attention and she did good use of it. After all she is a succesful woman! Paloma, if you don´t see any arrogance nor annoying behaviour in Jane, what thing do you thing make her human?? Is she that embodiment of perfection? I don´t think so at all.
Elena, I totally agree with you. When you are on front of uglyness you behave more freely than when being in front of Apollo, unless you be drunk! ;)
Paloma, I liked your description of the lack of self-esteem. That´s a problem but, what is the solution? For recovering, your wanting it is the first step. And many people hide themselves under a veil of embarrassment and inferiority complex that don´t allow people to approach them nor help them; and they become violent, dangerous people who don´t see the difference between the good and the bad.
By the way, I´ve finished the novel! I´ll see the film at 4 on Friday.

María dijo...

"what things do you think make her human", I meant

Paloma dijo...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/jan/23/bestbooks-fiction
1000 novels everyone must read: the definitive list
guardian.co.uk, Friday 23 January 2009 15.23 GMT
Article history
We could choose one from this list, don't you think?

Carmen dijo...

Quite honestly, Paloma I´m not going to read anything from any list!!!!! We have already finished our aet novel for the year and I´m ready to read another one with you but I want a quick decision and not pouring over 1ooo titles!!!!! You are welcome to doing as much as you wish and all suggestions are possibilities but I strongly advice you to narrow down not broaden.
I have seen no comments as to what we mentioned in class concerning chapter 36 and it being Rochy´s cleansing and purification. "suffering is wisdom" so he is now wiser, better, mature and through purging his sins is now ready for renovation and rebirth as a human being and to a new life.

Paloma dijo...

Look at the time!!! It’s half past four in the morning now!! I’ve just finished watching Little Dorrit, I simply haven’t been able to stop seeing it!! Just imagine fourteen episodes one after other, 452 minutes (more than 9 hours!!) It’s wonderful, amazing, surprisingly and most important at all is I’ve found something really interesting: Old Mr. Wilkie Collins got inspiration from this novel to write The Woman In white!!! There is a “Fosco” here and also a “Laura” and a “Sir Percival” and a secret as well. Perhaps this has been the reason why I couldn’t stop. By the way, do you know the name of that famous American banker who has stolen a lot of money from around the world by the means of paying interest with the new money invested in his bank? This is also in the novel. As Carmen is used to saying “Everything is in the classics”

Paloma dijo...

Mistake: 452 minutes are 7'5 hours not more than 9

Elena Gil - 5B dijo...

Paloma, I find that list interesting. I have rapidly reviewed it and there are not only classics, but also some recent books I've liked very much (i.e. Norvegian Woods by Murakami). I think it may be useful for a time when I be out of ideas regarding what to read.

I also like the fact they are classified by themes, though I find it difficult and thus inaccurate to restrain the topics in a book to only one...

María dijo...

Rochester has been given another chance. He is very lucky indeed since life is not usually so fair. By minor mistakes people have been strongly punished for life, without second opportunities. However, I feel happy for him, as I think he deserves being forgiven. While reading the novel, I did think that Rochester didn´t behave well at all, but I get to understand him and somehow was fond of him.
I´ve also liked his newly gained blindness which has not made him but see better, find himself, appreciate the "real" beauty of life and to feel fortunate of continuing living, with the hope of being found by an angel.

Elena Gil - 5B dijo...

I will try to comment Rochester's character later on. I liked him very much. I think he is the most interesting character in the novel, maybe because of the mistery around him during the first part of the novel.

By the way, this is a very interesting link, where you can listen and/or view some academic lectures. There are some even on "American novel since 1945" from Yale, but you can search lessons on very different topics. For instance:

http://academicearth.org/lectures/american-novel-since-1945-intro

Carmen dijo...

I´m glad Elena has found the list interesting, I think it´s convenient to have a guide but please let´s not go through nad then decide!!!! there´s no time!!!
Paloma, Little Dorrit could be a possibility, if you think it´s interesting we could consider it as a possibility.
María you point out that Rochy´s blindness helps him to see more clearly all he is has been through, now this is something that we saw in King Lear, of which I was reminded thanks to your comment.It is through his blindness that he is forced to look inside himself and thus the cleansing of his soul is achieved. Lear underwent this same process.

Carmen dijo...

Elena I´ll check that address, Thanks

Paloma dijo...

Thank you Elena, it is because I think the same as you that I posted the list. I also find it interesting that inside every subject the authors are ordered by their surnames, which makes it easier to find them and their recommended novels.

Roberto dijo...

I believe Jane and Rochester to complement each other and despite being rather different in many ways, they are equal as well because both "do not belong to the club" solitary, friendless, unsustained THAT they are.

Paloma, having no self-esteem does not mean you cannot keep going so as to overcome such a weakness, for we cannot help meeting people who seem to embrace qualities we would wish to have. As for the list, why should we spend time in scanning it if Carmen has given us hers? Quite honestly, I do not understand it! I do not want to sound rude, however, I wonder why I ought to make myself unhappy trying to find out an answer to a complicate question when the answer itself has been already given to me.

Elena, you are probably right though I am not sure whether I share your point of view. We drink so as to forget those imperfections which make us doubt if we will be accepted by others, since we all wish to please.

María dijo...

I didn´t remember Lear´s blindness and yes, it is the same. Blindness as a way of looking better wherever you drive your eyes is a usual paradox. Last saturday I saw the film Blindness -based on "Essay on blindness" by José Saramago- where there is a character who enjoys his blindness and finds people´s acceptance even affection, the happiness he had been looking for. Of course it is much more better the book, though the film is worth seeing it.
Blindness makes the other senses raise. So you are more aware of things, the essence of which can´t be seen only by having a quick look. It is also a kind of justice (like Roman goddess Fortune´s) against prejudices.

Paloma dijo...

Sorry Roberto I mean no disrespect towards Carmen, what have happened is that I hadn’t seen her list. I always have the blogger opened and hardly ever do I visit the main page where the list is.It has been today, reading your comment that I've kmown about it.
I was told about that page, I went there, found it interesting and in addition all the novels we had been spoken about in class were there, so I gave you the link as an idea. Sorry to have disappointed you so much.

Luis Martínez Salinas 5c dijo...

From chapter 37

If I had to title these few lines below, my favourite name would be “More than Words”. Let us see why.
Jane has just arrived at Ferndean manor. Despite the fact that she already knows that Mr Rochester is a handicapped man, she can not avoid some water in her eye when she notices how dependent he is. Jane says that unless he objects, she will be with him as long as she lives. The next morning they go for a walk. Mr Rochester sitting, Jane will not refuse when he places her on his knee. They carry on talking about what Jane has been doing for the last year. Jane tells him almost everything about it, but when it comes to the fact that St John is a handsome man, Mr Rochester says, “Perhaps, you would rather not sit any longer on my knee, Miss Eyre?” The answer is, “Why not, Mr Rochester?” As Mr Rochester infers that St John is present on Jane’s imagination, he adds: “Well, you can leave me, ma’am: but before you go” (and he retains her by a firmer grasp than ever), “you will be pleased just to ... a question or two.” Is this not more than words?

Carmen dijo...

I´ve seen some of the other films, sequences, I mean and I have not liked them either. Timothy Dalton is a good cast, but he is not a good actor and his Jane is too old, but I think she fits better as she is very plain. It is going to be very difficult to find a better Rochy, ours is so hadsome!! I have to fly, will try to connect myself tonight, the problem is that there is something wrong with my computer and it takes me so long!!!

Alessandro 5º B dijo...

Paloma: the list you provided is very interesting, but it includes lots of books that are translations. We have to chose a book which offers us a good use of “standard” or “classical” language, and at the same time is quite interesting so to stimulate us to write and speak about it.
I remember that many years ago Umberto Eco was asked to redact a similar list Instead of providing it, he wrote a very interesting reflection on this topic. I could not find it now, but I will try to reconstruct it. First he asked himself: why one thousand books? Why not five thousand, or ten, or may be just five hundred? What about one hundred? Some people are able to read a book in a week end (and enjoy and/or understand it), or may be some books can be read in a week end (and be enjoyed and/or understood). So this lucky and perseverant human being around twenty years to read one thousand books. How many will he remember? How many will he enjoy? How many will he read twice, or at least how many he would have been able to read twice. Would not it be more interesting to read more times less books? What about reading ten times one hundred books? And since few people read one thousand books in their life, but many read one hundred or less, should not it sound more interesting to read twice fifty books? Or four times twenty five books? Or even ten times ten books? I think to remember that Eco arrived to the conclusion that he found it better to read the same book as many times as one wants, than to read once a thousand of books.

María dijo...

Alessandro you don´t stop amazing me with your comments!! ahahah
No comments about the film we saw?? No comments about the handsomest Rochester? With such a Rochester and were I Jane, I wouldn´t leave him ever and wouldn´t have met my family either!! I liked the film, though I would do some changes, as the scene in which Jane is told not to go (to Gateshead) by Rochester. In the novel she didn´t go there with the certainty of being loved by him. Moreover, it´s true that Bertha´s screams and laughs are needed...

Paloma dijo...

I like the film very much, in spite of not being literal, it succeeds in conveying the true spirit and idea contained in the novel. In my opinion the atmosphere in the film is very well achieved and the light, colours and music are very good. I like “our” MR. Rochester very much, and not only because he is very attractive, but also because Toby Stephens, son of the great Maggie Smith, gives to the character the necessary strength. In my opinion to make a romantic film successful the viewers need, in some way, falling in love with the main characters, man and woman respectively, this Rochester, with his wonderful smile, is a man who attracts me, I could, were I to be Jane, fall in love with him.
I send this link to a mate, to make comparisons between the best versions, and this was the answer: (I post it separately next)
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=Jane+eyre+comparison&aq=f

A mate dijo...

I don´t want to be a pain in your neck but I continue thinking that 2006 version is the best one.
In conection with 1983 version, I have always thought that Timothy Dalton is not a good actor and after seeing his performance in Jane Eyre it encourages my opinion. In relation to the actress who plays Jane Eyre´s character is better not to say anything, has that actress got blood in her veins?. I understand that she is playing a character who is a little depressed but the problem is that she doesn´t move any muscle of her face!. She is inexpressive at all.
The 1996 is quite good too, especially Jane Eyre´s character. It is more "credible" than 1983 or 2006 one.
And what can I say about Mr. Rochester?. 2006 character is the best. He is the typical manly and tormented hero. Carmen says she would escape with him. I would do the same ;)

María dijo...

Rochester wants to know, which is so strange in a man! It is a desirable situation (for women) that is not usual. But I doubt that "the real" Rochester was so jealous! Jane knows she has the power and makes good use of it in a witchy way. She makes him suffer a little before giving him her heart...
On the other hand, it is very realistic the fact that he is now more insecure with his new physical handicaps. Men have also complexes and that is scarcely shown in books!
Despite this sweetened ending, I do like it!! And you??

María dijo...

Ellen Page takes on 'Jane Eyre' (http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117985166.html?categoryid=2431&cs=1)
Another pretty Jane... Which Rochester will have this film???? A good St John would be Orlando Bloom...

Roberto dijo...

Paloma, I did not mean that. I only wanted to express that, sometimes, we complicate our existence without the necessity of do it so.

Quite disappointed was I last Friday when watching the film. I did not like at all. Jane’s childhood and the time spent in Lowood was too short to begin with. The spectator should have more information about both Jane’s character and past so as to sympathy with her condition and to understand so peculiar a woman. Secondly, I believe it to need the narrator's voice so that we might follow the story throughout Jane’s perception, as it happens in the novel itself. As to the characters’ appearance, I expected to have a Jane less normal and a Rochester less handsome and more physically powerful (someone like Liam Neeson). Finally, I could not comprehend either, why there is no other character properly described. What about Helen, Miss Temple, Mrs Fairfax, Mrs Reed…?

María dijo...

Well, as usual to see the film after reading a book is dissapointing. I agree with Paloma that the film catchs the atmosphere. However, I also agree with Roberto that many descriptions and feelings are not there, even the plot is changed gratuitously. I didn´t expect to win anything by seeing the film, so I´m enjoying it as mere entertainment.

Carmen dijo...

Robero has quite a good Rochy in Lian Neeson, only he is too tall and we would have to die his hair or he should use a whig!! I totally agree with Roberto, a lot is missing in our film, and really if we hadn´t read the novel i wonder whether we would be so taken up by the story as we have been now that we have read it!!
Now, Folks, we are drawing to an end and really I would like to know whether you have been disappointed with the novel? Do you percieve that it is better, as a novel than our dear "Woman in White"?

Carmen dijo...

I´m sorry but i´ve decided to give you a more difficult topic for your last essay:

"Isolation in Jane Eyre:
what is it used for, how
does it affect the characters?"

Hand in after Easter

Elena Gil - 5B dijo...

Carmen, I enjoyed very much the novel, though I confess I was never tempted to read it before. In fact, I liked it better than The Woman in White!

Roberto dijo...

Quite entertaining as The Woman in White is, you cannot help feeling disappointed with such a plain analysis as Wilkie Collins does of his characters all. Despite the fact that you may sympathy with Marian Halcombe’s condition, there is no real interest in the woman itself. Even Fosco, who seems to portrait a complex personality, grants the reader no evidence at all about how really so cunning a man is. Besides, it is the anxiety about what is to happen next that focuses your attention on the novel. Jane Eyre, however, shows a proper portrait of human condition; deep feelings, beliefs, fears, hopes, disappointments and injustices being embraced in the novel not only as a means to describe characters but also to make us notice life is never an easy path where neither the evil are too evil nor the good, too good.

Roberto dijo...

¡¡¡IMPORTANT INFORMATION!!!

From the 18th to 28th of April, two English Companies are representing three plays in Teatro Español, in English and with English actors. YOU WILL HAVE TO BUY YOUR OWN TICKETS. Thus, the sooner you do it the more chances you have so as to prevent them from being sold out.

Here you have the link:

http://www.esmadrid.com/teatroespanol/cargarProgramacionAgenda.do?anio=0&paginaActual=2&texto=&fechaDesde=&idCategoria=0&fechaHasta=

Carmen and Marta will go the 21th and 28th provided they get tickets for those two days.

Roberto dijo...

YOU CAN BUY THE TICKTES BY MEANS OF TELENETRADA (www.telentrada.com)

Carmen dijo...

well Folks, this is goodbye to another novel, we seem to be saying this for ever, and unfortunately our final parting is not very far either. Roaberto, you´ve done a really good comment and really good defintion of how good this novel is, I´m very proud of you. Thanks Elena for your opinion, I´m also very happy that you enjoyed it. As we leave Jane and Mr. Rochester happy to enjoy their married life in eternal and perpetual bliss for ever and ever I would to round this up with the sequence in the film which shows them parting for the night, wet, kissing, in the courtyard....
THE END

María dijo...

Jane Eyre is a masterpiece, which tells a story of a life itself, from Jane was born to she gets happiness. Everything told step by step, feeling by feeling, it moving us in every single way. The woman in white is like detective stories, it grips you. Both are different and must be value them like ones. So I love both, in different ways.

María dijo...

without them, sorry

Raquel dijo...

Hello Paloma! It's Raquel. I'm trying to watch the film of Zefirelli, but it appears in double lenguage at the same time which is very uncomfortable and I can't manage to take it off. Do you know how to do it?

María dijo...

mistake: "must be valued like ones"

Carmen dijo...

Sorry, I can´t help Rachel but ring Paloma, use the list

Paloma dijo...

Use another programme that allows you to choose the sound track

Roberto dijo...
Este comentario ha sido eliminado por el autor.
Roberto dijo...

Thank you Carmen, I sincerely appreciate such a compliment.

As you say, we are nearly to finish the term and I cannot help feeling sad before so mournful a prospect. I wonder why good things in life do not last. Otherwise, I guess we would not consider them valuable.

Let us new enjoy Tale of Two Cities while we can!

See you there

:-)

marta dijo...

There are two tickets to sell for A WINTER´S TALE for the 28th April. Does anybody want them??? 28€ each stalls. Please contact us as soon as possible.

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Wilkie Collins

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