6 de octubre de 2008
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Wilkie Collins
Quiénes somos
- EOIGoya_Inglés
- El Departamento de Inglés de a Escuela Oficial de Idiomas (EOI) "Goya" se suma con este proyecto de blog, con el blog de teatro y con su página de vídeos en YouTube a la explotación de las nuevas tecnologías como parte de la enseñanza de idiomas en la enseñanza pública en Madrid. Un cálido agradecimiento a CMF, sin cuya colaboración esto no sería posible.
Concurso 2007-08
855 comentarios:
«El más antiguo ‹Más antiguo 201 – 400 de 855 Más reciente› El más reciente»I also liked chapter IX, but I don´t know the connections between it and The Lord of the rings, which I´ve not read. However, let me tell you that you don´t bore us, not me at least, so, please, tell us your conclusions!
When someone whom you love dies, it makes you be stronger. A life is over, but a brand new life is waiting for you.
Carmen you has a point when saying Helen has found someone noticing her talent and therefore she appreciates those sentiments. Don’t you think there are not many people believing in you during your lifetime so faithfully?
Chapter X has moved me, Jane being able to express how you feel when someone you are really fond of is not sharing your life any longer (I am not referring to relationships). She is completely right by saying that Miss Temple was not a prop to keep going but the reason to stay. Thus, Jane realise she must face a new life and that current condition is arrived to and end. Have you ever experienced so forlorn a feeling? I have.
How funny your comments(Paloma and Elena Gil)!!!Sorry but I laughed with them in the middle of such a sad story(Jane´s)
I read something from Roberto that worried me a little bit.Of course everyone needs to be loved and likes compliments from others,but we should never act just to like them.One should be oneself in spite of dissapointing some people.
Obviously regarding other´s feelings."Try to be yourself"could be the slogan.
Yes,chapter IX has been very touching.How peaceful Helen´s death,all that love around,that extreme connection between the girls.It seems that being next to Helen at her deathbed transmits Jane all her acknwoledgement.
Now Jane will adopt another attitude to face live.
I haven´t read The Lord of the rings,I´ve seen the film and I don´t see the connection,sorry.
Let´s wait until tomorrow to find it out!
I´ll think on it.
Silvia, I think some times one can not help it.
Lo siento, pero mañana viajo temprano y no tengo tiempo para escribir en inglés. Hoy se ha suscitado una polémica en mi clase acerca de si las últimas palabras de Helen muestran que ella no tiene auto estima. Mi opinión es que no la tiene. La de Carmen y algunas compañeras es que todo lo contrario, que tiene mucha. No quiero irme sin explicar mi punto de vista y exponer las razones que lo soportan.
Helen tiene 13 años, y ha sido no solo abandonada, si no rechazada, por su propio padre.
Los niños y adolescentes tienden a culpabilizarse de casi todo lo malo que les ocurre, incluso de la separación de sus padres. ¿Por qué iba Helen a ser una excepción? Por otro lado es una niña constantemente castigada y maltratada hasta el infinito por una profesora absurda de la que ella no ve la bajeza. Helen no sabe que cuando un niño es maltratado no es culpa del niño, la pobre criatura no "SE LO MERECE", es culpa del mal tratador, en este caso de la profesora amargada e inepta y muy envidiosa que se ceba en una pobre niña a la que sabe sola y abandonada. ¿La excusa? La está educando, pero, señores, eso no es educar, eso es herir.
¿Cómo podría la pobre Helen, abandonada, maltratada, enferma y sin ningún punto positivo en su mísera existencia, tener alta autoestima? ¿La tendría algún humano en sus condiciones?
No la tiene, en absoluto. Si la hubiera tenido y aceptase serenamente su muerte, como dicen algunos en mi clase, habría dicho algo así como.”Es la voluntad de Dios y debemos aceptar sus designios”, pero no dice eso. Dice:” I leave no one to regret me” “I had not qualities or talents to make my way very well in the world: I should have been continually at fault” ¿Que persona con alta autoestima diría algo así?
Es más, yo creo, y así lo he dicho, que ella incluso desea morir, pero no por amor a Dios y para estar con Él (Vivo sin vivir en mí, y tan alta vida espero, que muero porque no muero. (Sta. Teresa)), si no como liberación.”Dios es mi padre, Dios es mi amigo, le quiero y creo que ÉL ME QUIERE” En mi opinión es una niña tan derrotada y tan necesitada de amor, que no le importa pagar el precio de su vida con tal de conseguir ese amor. Y no me digáis que tiene a Jane o a la Señorita Temple. El amor de una amiga, (encima más pequeña) o el de una profesora, no pueden llenar el inmenso vacío que le queda a un niño cuando su madre se muere y su padre le abandona incluso en la hora de la muerte.
Helen is a calm person, resigned, her acceptance of her illness and her death is similar to the way she conducted herself in life. I don´t know if it is self-confidence or mere acceptation. What grabbed my attention when Helen dead is that Jane is suddenly comfortable being literally next to death, a concept which she feared when she lived at Gateshead. Her fear of death and ghosts based more on her unhappiness, which ended and made her become mature.
As for God is concerned, I believe more faith and love for the heaven in Helen. So in that point I agree with Paloma, because Helen refers to God as many roles: Maker, Father, Friend, Universal Parent. Such things show Helen´s lacks.
Until here, everything is told like a remembrance, only those moments Jane remembers and wants us to know. However, from now on, the tense being present, we are going to know Jane better, because she´s telling actions as they are developing, in an instant way.
I believe Helen is fully conscious of her condition, facing it with dignity and it is her faith that makes her overcome every single punishment undeserved together with a forlorn existence. In my opinion, it is the perfect state of mind and soul you might ever wish to achieve.
Those of you being in my class might remember that I quoted something Woody Allen said in one of his films related to how horrible the human being is. Here you have the proper statement:
“I've a very pessimistic view of life. You should know this about me if we're going to go out, you know. I feel that life is divided up into the horrible and the miserable. The horrible would be like, uh, I don't know, terminal cases, you know? And blind people, crippled ...
I don't-don't know how they get through life. It's amazing to me. You know, and the miserable is everyone else. That's all. So when you go through life you should be thankful that you're miserable, because you're very lucky to be to be miserable.”
ANNIE HALL (1977)
I am sorry for interrupting your discussion, but could someone tell me the topic of the composition of this week, please?
Thank you in advanced!
My first day at school.
Great quote, Roberto!
Thank you for sharing it with us!
He seems to be less pessimistic as he thinks if he can give thanks for something"good" happens to him !
Could you imagine going out with someone having so sad thinking?
Paloma, I do not know whether you´ve seen the news today? A thirteen-year-old girl, in England, has refused to have a new heart, even though this means that she will pass away, on the grounds that she´d rather die than continue suffering medical treatment for leucemia since she was 5!! As you see, currently there are children like Helen Burns. Prolongued suffering can develop this feeling in any human being.
I cannot remember the Lord of the Rings at all, I´m sure I must have read it, though.
The lack of healthy is a very good reason why to die. And also it´s very probably both Helen and Hannah don´t know the life is coming, what they are going to miss. The only difference is that Helen accepts her death because it is irremediable; otherwise, Hannah has chosen to die, instead of a horrible life amongst surgeons and medicines. What we don´t know is wheter Hannah is looking forward to seeing God as Helen was, and if she thinks that a better divine life is waiting for her.
It must be horrible seeing your daughter in such pain not only physical but from the soul as well.
This morning I happened to listen a mother of a tetraplegic boy(due to a medical neglect),she said it is impossible for other parents to understand her support to her child if he wanted to die,she would die for him and would do anything she could,but there is nothing to do and he has no more than suffering.So if that were his decision she would support him but(in her words) she would never dare helping him die,for after she would do it to her as well.
In Hanna´s situation I guess the difference is that there is a remote possibility for her.It seems awkward how their parents haven´t been able to transmit her the energy or the necessity to live.
What appalling a circumstance for a family !!!
Mistake:Negligence
Tethraplegic(I think)
Bye
Paloma, in my opinion you´ve misunderstood Helen completely!!! She does not lack self-esteem, on the contrary, she knows herself to be clever and a great favourite of everyone´s favourite, Miss Temple.She possesses a superior mind and that´s why she labels Jane as young and uneducated in their first conversation. She understands and disregards Miss Scatcherd´s scolding, moreover she admits that the teacher is right and all she is trying to do is correct Helen of her faults!!! She does not want to die because she is been abandoned by ehr father, lots of children were then in that situation and would not necessarily wish to die, no, she accepts her death because she is ill,terminally ill, and I think that if this is the situation, one eventually accepts it. Her tone, what she says, is what a person under those circumstances, who believes in God would say, don´t you think?
Roberto, I totally agree with your very accurate analysis about Helen, this is precisely what I was trying to say!
and now we turn to happier times, Jane arrives at Thornfield, quite likes the house, the housekeeper, her pupil, the house, she is happy her spirit is free and exultant, she rules her life...do you understand this feeling? Do you remember feeling like this? I do and it´s wonderful to feel that you are the one who controls!!!..then... you quickly find yourself back in your place, "we are but human"..BE CAREFUL!!it´s a dangerous feeling..it involves falling.. into the pit! Any comments?
You are right Carmen, at length Jane is enjoying life, at least in her way, because she has made her mind up to walk along a new path, it being the first time she is able to choose the one she wants. Sometimes I have had that feeling even though I realise that I keep being quite linked to my parents and there are still situations in which it is my father who makes decisions preventing I should try it even if I fail.
Silvia, I agree with the mother’s attitude you are quoting. Everybody is willing to give his opinion but I dare say there are few suffering so painful a condition who do not maintain the same point of view as this mother does.
What do you think concerning the next Jane’s perception of Mrs. Fairfax: “There are people who seem to have no notion of sketching a character, or observing and describing salient points, either in persons or things.” It is absolutely true even in real life, isn’t it?
It is very difficult to tell a person when we first see her. I think that if we forced ourselves to write what we see or think it would help us to know those we meet better. All descriptions in this book are good.
I’ve just come back from London. There is a huge outrage all over the country because a baby, called by the media baby P, has been killed by her mother’s boyfriend after torture him terribly. The baby was 17 month old. His nails were pulled out and his fingers’ phalanges cut. (Can you imagine that?) The worst of it is that the social services were told about this little boy being tortured. They visited him SIXTY TIMES!!! And did NOTHING!!! Can you imagine something like that happening here? Fortunately children in Spain are removed from their parents at the very first sign of mistreatment. For Christ’s sake! Both, the mother and the killer were underage, why they trusted them?
How dare English to allow themselves to give lessons to other people! They should sweep they own home first, mainly considering this is the second time this happens there in a very short time! And nobody has resigned or has been dismissed!!! It’s the same the world over!!
Before both reading and answering your latest comments about the novel, let me say something related to 007 films which have been a matter of discussion today in our class.
Carmen, I am a little bit disapointed with you (just a little) concerning this issue since you don’t seem very willing to see such sort of film. Wise and cultivated as you are, sometimes I feel sad that you don’t show the same interest in cinema as you do with theatre. And when action films is concerned I dare say you may find as many marvelous films as you do in any other genre.
I said Daniel Craig, the current Bond, is my favoritte one and casino royale was amazing (the film he played before Quantum of Solace). Here you have the comment I posted on the film blog, taken from the internet and showing why these new versions of Mr. Fleming’s novel are considered more loyal to them than the classical ones.
Casino Royal introduced us to a new James Bond, perfectly performed by Daniel Craig and showing a film much closer to Fleming’s vision.
His name is Bond, James Bond: just don’t expect him to introduce himself. For the first time in his 22 screen outings, Britain’s best- known secret agent will not utter the words of introduction that have thrilled fans and appalled master criminals for 46 years. Nor in his new adventure, does 007 utters the other classic one-liner – “shaken not stirred” – when ordering his martini, according to the director, Marc Forster.
Gone were the unfeasible gadgets on which he could always rely in a tight spot. The boffin who created them in the basement of the MI6 building, Q, played in the past by Desmond Llewellyn and John Cleese, was also therefore eliminated, along with Miss Moneypenny and her flirtatious banter. Bond even briefly abandoned his high-performance motor to drive a Ford Mondeo before reverting to an Aston Martin.
Graham Rye, who edits the online 007 Magazine said that Craig, who made his debut in last year's Casino Royale, is much closer to Fleming's vision. "The Bond films had become tired and needed reinvigorating," he said. "Rather than going away from Fleming I think the producers have gone back to him." Mr Rye added that the famous ingredients of the film, such as Q and Moneypenny, had only featured once or twice in the books. Nor does he make a habit of ordering martinis or introducing himself. "His announcing of himself had become a bit corny," he added. "Casino Royale gets back to the spirit of the books, rather than all the silliness."
So, next week (the 27th ) we are meeting to watch the film (Quantum of Solace) and I hope many of you (and Carmen) join us.
Roberto are you sure that´s the day?
Isn´t that the day of "Manos Blancas No Ofenden"?
I´ve checked it in the blog.
Yes,beauty is important.
Does to undergo surgery mean you are not self-confident?
It is true "Doña Letizia" pretended to be self-confident when she worked as a journalist and when starting to go out with the Prince but wasn´t that just a pose?
The "lady" must have been influenced by the comments of people and mostly by the Queen.I´m sure her decission had the Queen´s approval.
Of course she wants to be the most charming person!she is being compared with her sisters in law as for their heigh,with Queen Rania from Jordania for her absolute beauty and elegance,with her mother in law Doña Sofia for her wisdom.Since she got married she has been the focus of attention of media programs and population,so if she was not hard enough that must have affected her.
I understand Doña Letizia perfectly well, she has the money, she has the means, and she is following her anthropological nature. Nothing wrong, nothing odd, nothing new.
I want to tell you something: Many anthropologists believe what make us particular as a spice is our capacity for the abstract. This capacity is shown mainly in two different ways. The first one is our belief in magic and the second one is the fact that we are the only known spice on Earth that decorate the body and face in order that we can look more attractive or show our social status. The Neanderthals, the nearest spice to ours, didn’t do that. They use a bit of magic in some of their graves, perhaps under our influence, but they never decorate their bodies, their faces or their clothes. Not only women, but also men, feel the necessity among Homo sapiens of being attractive or show others their status by means of personal appearance.
Why the princess has have an operation precisely now and not before? I don’t know, of course, but I can suppose it. One of the main characteristic defining us is our capacity to adapt ourselves to the circumstances and change our way of behaving, thinking and, even, our set of values. She comes from a family left-wing and now she is a royal, in all likelihood she has changed her mind, and she behaves accordingly. Nothing wrong, nothing odd, nothing new.
Paloma, What a socking news! It is true, human being is horrible.
You are right Silvia, I’ve changed the meeting to the 25th of November.
There are many sentiments expressed in chapter 12 I really agree with and I dare say all of us has ever experienced them:
QUOTE 1:
“It is a very strange sensation to inexperienced youth to feel itself quite alone in the world, cut adrift from every connection, uncertain whether the port to which it is bound can be reached, and prevented by many impediments from returning to that it has quitted. The charm of adventure sweetens that sensation, the glow of pride warms it; but then the throb of fear disturbs it.”
Absolutely true, isn’t it?
QUOTE 2:
“I shall surely be able to get on with her; I will do my best; it is a pity that doing one’s
best does not always answer.”
Is she referring to the time she spent within Gateshead?
QUOTE 3:
“…I was still by nature solicitous to be neat. It was not my habit to be disregardful of appearance or careless of the impression I made: on the contrary, I ever wished to look as well as I could, and to please as much as my want of beauty would permit. I sometimes regretted that I was not handsomer; I sometimes wished to have rosy cheeks, a straight nose, and small cherry mouth; I desired to be tall, stately, and finely developed in figure; I felt it a misfortune that I was so little, so pale, and had features so irregular and so marked. And why had I these aspirations and these regrets? It would be difficult to say: I could not then distinctly say it to myself; yet I had a reason, and a logical, natural reason too.”
Why do we usually are so concerned about physical appearance? As a matter or respectability or because we want to be accepted?
Roberto, I did not want to sound bookish and look down on the cinema, I like going to films very much but I really do not have the time to do everything. As to Mr Bond and Daniel Craig, well, I cannot imagine oo7 gay and quite hinestly this actor does look as if he were!! The cast for Bond is difficult indeed, but they should have been more careful here. i cannot judge whether he is the best because I have never read the novels, that is what we should do to form an opinion, but let me tell you, not everything said in reviews is correct: Kyra knightley is a HORRRIBLE Elizabeth Bennet, she makes her vulgar and cheap, which she wasn´t, Mr.Darcy would never be attracted by such a one, now, she was candidate to the oscar. I remember telling my students then that she would never win and she did not.
The quotes are wonderful, so well expressed, so near to real human character, I love the three, the most disturbing being the last for women, yes, "first in beauty should be first in might" well women are still fighting to be the most beautiful, there is a song by Janice Ian(did I get the spelling right?)"..I learnt the truth at seventeen/that love was meant for beauty queens.." listen to it.
Paloma, why are you so angry at the English? What about the boy killed in the disco? 49 denounced and not closed? Any criticisms about your own country?: "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Mind, I also think it´s horrible and there should be some people made responsible, as in the disco.
Roberto, I did not want to sound bookish and look down on the cinema, I like going to films very much but I really do not have the time to do everything. As to Mr Bond and Daniel Craig, well, I cannot imagine oo7 gay and quite hinestly this actor does look as if he were!! The cast for Bond is difficult indeed, but they should have been more careful here. i cannot judge whether he is the best because I have never read the novels, that is what we should do to form an opinion, but let me tell you, not everything said in reviews is correct: Kyra knightley is a HORRRIBLE Elizabeth Bennet, she makes her vulgar and cheap, which she wasn´t, Mr.Darcy would never be attracted by such a one, now, she was candidate to the oscar. I remember telling my students then that she would never win and she did not.
The quotes are wonderful, so well expressed, so near to real human character, I love the three, the most disturbing being the last for women, yes, "first in beauty should be first in might" well women are still fighting to be the most beautiful, there is a song by Janice Ian(did I get the spelling right?)"..I learnt the truth at seventeen/that love was meant for beauty queens.." listen to it.
Paloma, why are you so angry at the English? What about the boy killed in the disco? 49 denounced and not closed? Any criticisms about your own country?: "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Mind, I also think it´s horrible and there should be some people made responsible, as in the disco.
Roberto, she means Mrs. Reed.
Carmen, Daniel Craig does not seem gay at all! Please watch Casino Royale or the new film, Quantum of Solace (Would you mind going to the film club and watch the trailer I linked?). Considering myself to be a film buff, I do not want to sound haughty BUT I can assure you that both the film and the character Craig plays are quite good.
Keira Kinghtley is only an attractive woman, nothing else.
As I had been out of the country I haven’t heard anything about that boy. I knew what happened after posting my comment. But as I told you precisely in that comment: It’s the same the world over!! And that’s what makes me feel angry: giving lessons to other countries or other people, as they usually do, it’s not a good idea. We all, English, Spanish, French, etc are human beings and, accordingly, we all make the same mistakes. It’s so evident, so simple, that I wonder why some people allow themselves to look down on somebody else only because they belong to different countries. Sometimes we behave in a different way because our culture, but deep down we are very similar, mainly in what feelings is concerned.
¡ ¡ ¡ ¡ ¡QUANTUM OF SOLACE! ! ! ! !
- Next Tuesday, the 25th
- Yelmo Cines Ideal
- Time: 20 h
(Go to the Film Club)
Carmen, I've looked for the song you were talking about, from Janis Ian, "At seventeen". I've found this page with the lyrics and a link to listen to the song itself.
http://redeleon.blogspot.com/2007/07/at-seventeen-janis-ian.html
It's a great song! I particularly like this part:
"To those of us who knew the pain
of valentines that never came
and those whose names were never called when choosing sides for basketball."
Anyway, I believe that when grown up, you can see a broader world than that seen from a seventeen-year-old perspective. You have read more, seen more things, you can choose not to play basketball, but more important, you can better choose who you mix with. Moreover, seventeen-year-old beauty queens are not very interesting people to be in society with, nor at seventeen, and most probably, at thirty neither, don't you think?
It is incredible how Carmen makes us think about everything. When I´ve gone out from class, I´ve thought about why to go to the university is good. What a question! It is so obvious to think that it is so better to study a career than no to do it, that you don´t stop to think why. Well, that is just why to study makes a difference. Because University makes you think about things you didn´t notice before at all. Many questions are thrown and you have to give an answer, to look for an answer. And when you find it, it´s wonderful. Don´t you agree? Moreover, it makes you also be open-minded, as someone said in class.
Jane is a little hung up on beauty. Right from the beginning, it´s been shown Jane´s sensitivity for beauty. When the young girl lived at Gateshead, she realizes herself lacking a more attractive and sprightly manner. That means that if you are not attractive, privileges and success don´t correspond you. In Lowood she forgets her worry about beauty. School rules reprove the concept of vanity. But it was curious that no sooner did Bessie visit her, Jane opened the conversation by asking questions concerning the beautiful Georgiana ("Is she handsome?" or something like that. Of course, Jane, of course). The obsession came back, or it may have never gone out. But, what about Bessie´s answer?: "you look like a lady and it is as much as aver I expected of you". Jane is set back into her uglyness.
But now she has met Rochester, and both share the same attractiveness level. Moreover, Jane says: "had he been a handsome..., I should not have dared to stand thus questioning him against his will, and offering my services unasked". When you see a handsome person, you become nervous, silly, insecure... and run away. But when you met someone who is not so handsome, you may be more comfortable. And what is the best situation: to be nervous, silly and insecure, or to feel comfortable? I think women value more the beauty of themselves than of men´s. Rochester is not handsome, but self-confident, strong, mysterious, powerful, rich, capable of giving security... Those things make you look up to him, not because his look, but his abilities.
This afternoon we have been analysing Mr. Rochester’s character and behaviour towards Jane in their first meeting. As usual, this seems to be our destiny, Carmen and I have kept different points of view. Both of us like men that are master in his’ own home but we disagree regarding the way in which Mr. Rochester treats Jane when he first meet her. My opinion concerning this point is that if I had been Jane and a man like that had addressed me thereby, I would feel a worm, and the ting I hate the most is feel I mean nothing. Having said this, I’d like to add something, there is an aspect of Mr. Rochester I like very much and I haven’t mentioned in class: he seems to be a passionate man. Jane tells us he swears and, in my opinion, this shows him to be a man capable of strong feelings. Although I haven’t like him at first sight, if he is as I imagine him to be, perhaps I would forgive him and fall in love with him (If I were Jane, of course)
As for La Leti is concerned: Such pressure a situation she is living being prince´s wife after being republican, the continuous and severe criticism she is coming in, the troubles with her sister, etc, etc, have made her lose her mind. If you are the boss of a huge enterprise and your wife wants to go to the surgeon, that´s up to her. But if you are the princess you ought not to do it. You must spend the money State gives you in other things, not in your nose. It´s like a queen giving her opinion about abortion, immigration or any political issue, or like a king going to "some places"... Come on! Manners before morals! Sorry, but they are not entitled to do so, they have not freedom of speech or of acting. That´s the prize they pay for their current position. To be of the royalty was better before, when they could do whatever they wanted, without giving any reason, but not nowadays.
University is, indeed, a tool which helps us to develop our minds and to reason. As Maria has said, our minds are trained to think up solutions for different problems. The knowledge acquired during this time is, in my opinion, not as important as the experience is. Actually I have studied engineering and I think that in a future job I will use 10 % of the information which I have acquired. In fact, most of my fellows are working in business stuff. Everybody has very moving memories about this time, and probably it consists of one of the most beautiful periods in our lives.
The more you continue studying ,the wider range of knowledge you achieve.I mean, to learn different subjects open our minds at great length,so one can have opinion about many more matters. Some of them turn out to be essential in our lives and the others help us develop ourselves.
I haven´t been studying for a long time and starting with English again has taken me back many years.
Not to mention that thanks to it I began using the extense possibilities the Internet offers.
But I also think that not only studying a degree allows you to be a cultivated person.
My job(stewardess)has taught me many useful things about human beings,the different worlds that exist next to ours and the way people survive.
The more you continue studying ,the wider range of knowledge you achieve.I mean, to learn different subjects open our minds at great length,so one can have opinion about many more matters. Some of them turn out to be essential in our lives and the others help us develop ourselves.
I haven´t been studying for a long time and starting with English again has taken me back many years.
Not to mention that thanks to it I began using the extense possibilities the Internet offers.
But I also think that not only studying a degree allows you to be a cultivated person.
My job(stewardess)has taught me many useful things about human beings,the different worlds that exist next to ours and the way people survive.
María, very good comments about the evolution of Jane´s mind concerning beauty,and thanks for saying that I make you think! As for Paloma, you said that "if a man spoke in such a way to you..."well, considering you would be working for him and would not have much choice outside, you would have shut your mouth and done as bid! You have to understand them in their circumstance and not try to put them in yours!I told you so last year.
P.S.piece of advice: take my side, I´m unbeatable, I´ve devoted much time to analizing the characters
It is difficult to say what university gives us that we cannot obtain outside. I mean you can cultivate yourself without having been..but who does? It´s not just having fun or experience, it´s the fact that it enlightens your brain, it kind of switches on lights inside your mind. I know several people that have not studied anything and my God it shows!! However Jane Austen, Charlotte Bronte, and women writers, then, did not go and look what they´ve produced!! But how many are thus touched by the Muses? university enables common mortals to develop, to broaden their minds, civilizes idiots, I think everyone should have a taste of it even if it be small..
As to María´s comments about the royals, yes they should have more thrift and be a little less materialistic, a little less worldly, if your nose is big keep it, you are never going to be Miss World!! However it´s very helpful to study human nature, don´t you feel you know Leti better?
In my case, university taught me mainly three things, they being how to overcome dreadful situations by means of effort and endurance, to reason and to achieve skills so that I may find out “answers” by myself when I have to face a new challenge.
As a woman, with the information given up to know, do you think Mr. Rochester to be the sort of man you fall in love?
Charlotte Bronte and her talent when expressing sentiments is concerned make me feel impressed every time I find out more about Jane’s worries and feelings. On coming back home after meeting Mr. Rochester, she is in low spirits by realizing that her life quite, comfortable and easy lacks of happiness. Something else is needed, maybe love?
Mistake:
..fall in love WITH
I could fall in love with Rochester, yes, despite his uglyness, which I don´t believe at all. Girls, don´t you agree? Or, am I the only crazy?
Of course any woman would fall head over heels with Mr. Rochester
he has everything that women find irresistable: he is strong, rich, good family, does what he likes, independent, has feelings, shows interest and regard for a woman if he is interested, knows how to make a woman special, has lived a lot(with lots of affairs)is thus experienced, clever, cultivated and in some moments WEAKKK!!!! there is not one woman who, meeting him, would not be trapped,if he wished. Anyone who fails to see this just does not understand women or his character!!!!!!!!!
Roberto, I´ve seen Quantum of solace! Craig is better than I thought....but: he lacks sense of humour, is too cold-blooded, he is almost like a professional killer, he remainds me of the Jackal(Eduard Fox?)and he is a spy, a civil servant. As to his physique, he is too short, and there is something around the mouth that I dislike, I think this is what makes him look gay. As to the story you will ahve to explain a lot of things to me and to the audience at large, bacause lots of people came out saying that they had not understood the story too well: who in the cia gets promoted? why? didn´t the one that we thought has got the promotion, i.e. the black one acted as instructed? Can a young and beautiful girl do all that out of vengance? and so well-trained? How can he follow the story so quickly and we, the audience did not a clue what was happeneing? or the
MI6, for that matter. then we´ve had some very interesting,amazing scenes, on the whole entertaining
Dear Carmen, I must acknowledge considering the film some times a little bit confusing by having so many characters and you might get lost trying to follow the plot. Nevertheless, it is a very good action film in my opinion and probably one of the best when Bond’s films is concerned even though I prefer Casino Royale.
Bond’s character is not well developed since it is in Casino Royale, the film shot before this one, that you are shown enough information about him, the ending of which being the beginning of this one.
Let me try to persuade you about the reasons why I consider Daniel Craig and the two films he has done up to now as being the best within Bond’s world. Firstly, hardly do you start watching the film (or Casino Royale) when you realise they are completely different to every film of Bond’s made before. Quotes well known, fancy gadgets, unbelievable plots vanish at last and a new epoch is on stage quite closer to Ian Fleming’s books.
Daniel Craig plays the role of secret agent giving it human features, that is to say, he makes use of the means he has to defeat villains, they being his strength and cleverness. The former is used to prevent dreadful events should take place and the latter to find enemies. This is an important element to consider, for you may identify with the character in the way that you feel it “possible” to happen. Even cars which used to be an important element of the film, now scarcely appear making the audience appreciate more the few moments they are shown. As for women, he shows convincing when “conquering” them (this you can check it watching Casino Royale) but at the same time being sensitive and kind. He also knows how to be elegant, refined and funny (again Casino Royale).
Finally, music and shooting mix up perfectly to create thrilling scenes without forgetting 007 essence.
Hi!Sorry for interrupting your discussion about James Bond, but do you know what is the next composition about? It is for this week, isn´t it?
Thank you in advanced!!
Anonimo, are you the same one who posted a similar comment some time ago? I willingly say to you that we have to do a formal letter, about 150 words, following the examples shown in pages 21 and/or 53.
However, I feel a little bit dissapointed that you only write to ask for such an issue without posting anything related to the novel. You don't even give your name.
I am enjoying the novel much more now because of the appearance of the new character, Mr. Rochester. He makes the story much more interesting and funnier. Now I am looking forward to seeing what will happen between Jane and him. It seems that despite Mr. Rochester’s ugliness, she could fall in love with him. This love affair could remind us of the fairy tale “the Beauty and the Beast”, although in this case the circumstances are quite different (also it seems that Jane is not too pretty).
Reading the previous posts I can infer that most girls would love Mr. Rochester, and actually I like him very much (only like a friend…). He is a charismatic gentleman and his way of speaking is very sarcastic, which makes him very hilarious in my opinion. Besides, I don’t think he mistreats Jane, in fact I think he is pretty nice with her, at least as nice as he could be with someone who is socially inferior. They have deep conversations about very personal grounds, in which we can appreciate Mr. Rochester’s rambling thoughts and Jane’s intelligence to answer the strange and complex questions posed by Mr. Rochester.
Hitherto my favourite book has been Pride and Prejudice and my favourite male character in literature has been, of course, Mr. Darcy. Since Mr. Rochester has appeared in our novel, I can’t help making comparisons between them. In fact I think I’m doing the same from the start. Elizabeth and Jane, both men…
Anyway, the thing is that I find a lot of similarities between the two gentlemen. To begin with, in their first appearance none of them is kind or very polite; not only Elizabeth, also Jane gets a poor impression of the man: “He is very changeful and abrupt” says Jane. In addition, as we pointed out yesterday in class, both men are aware very soon of the existence of the two women; on no account they are indifferent to them. Both are very rich, and accustomed to having power; both have a great experience in society, bigger than hers, and both are cultured and, which is better, able to appreciate the value of a good education in others, mainly in a woman. Will Rochester’s evolution be similar to Darcy's? Will Jane achieve temper his character? We will see.
Jaime reading your post I get the conclusion you have read more chapters than me. You speak about deep conversations which have not taken place so far (chapter 13). I’m looking forward reading chapter fourteenth. It seems to be very interesting according to your post.
Roberto, I agree that it is a good action film but I cannot see how women would fall in love with that Bond. He is not at all elegant, too short,too many muscles. then he does not say much, does he? He is very cold, not vulnurable, a trait women like very much.
Jaime, very good, at last you are inside the novel.you are right in feeling interested by Rochester, you understand his character. Of course he is polite, unnecessarily, since it is to one member of his personnel, we had a big discrepancy in your class because Paloma did not have a very good opinion of him, but I think that now you are trying to change it,Paloma, mind that I will NOT FORGET what you said of Mr. Rochester, particularly because you did not listen to our reasoning(remeber I was not alone)!!!! Now you are comparing him with Mr. Darcy, well Mr. Darcy is worse where manners are concerned, isn´t he? He is with his equals, ok, you may say that he was richer and better connected, but those people were the best you could get in the area, thus Darcy should have been more polite, and danced with some of the ladies, talk a bit here and there and in general show breedeing, because he had it, more so than the rest. Mr. Rochester is with his inferiors!!! and employees, and he invites them to join him in the evening!! How many people currently would have dinner with the nurse? Not the ones I know, certainly: you pay someone to do a job, not to share your life!!!! Think, then, that you are in the 19th century!!!! As to experience in society, I think they have but very different, Mr. Darcy is the heir, Mr.Rochester the second born and is deprived of some of the fortune he was entitled to, by his own father!! Mr. Darcy was always a favourite and Mr. Rochester was not; this influences a man´s attitude to life. As to other sort of experience, I think Mr. Rochester has touched rock bottom and Mr. Darcy, having been a good-natured, responsible boy (the housekeeper´s description),has lived quite an easy, happy life, but for the loss of his father and the episode of his sister, no worries practically. as to they being cultivated, I get the impression that Mr. Rochester has more opinion than Darcy, Mr. Darcy is the reader who learns but does not judge, is no critic, of art, Mr. Rochester more so, their difference is in the suffering, which we´ve said many times makes MAN wiser. I´ve liked your idea of comparing the two but we have to be careful, Mr. Darcy may be a loser, just this once.
The Byronic hero is an idealised but flawed character exemplified in the life and writings of Lord Byron, characterised by his ex-lover Lady Caroline Lamb as being "mad, bad and dangerous to know".[1] The Byronic hero first appears in Byron's semi-autobiographical epic narrative poem Childe Harold's Pilgrimage (1812-18). The Byronic hero typically exhibits the following characteristics:[2][3]
• high level of intelligence and perception
• cunning and able to adapt
• sophisticated and educated
• self-critical and introspective
• mysterious, magnetic and charismatic
• struggling with integrity
• power of seduction and sexual attraction
• social and sexual dominance
• emotional conflicts, bipolar tendencies, or moodiness
• a distaste for social institutions and norms
• being an exile, an outcast, or an outlaw
• "dark" attributes not normally associated with a hero
• disrespect of rank and privilege
• a troubled past
• the ability to command the loyalty of sea creatures
• cynicism
• arrogance
• self-destructive behaviour
Byron's influence was manifested by many authors and artists of the Romantic movement and by writers of Gothic fiction during the 19th century. The Byronic hero provides the title character of Rochester from Charlotte Brontë's Jane Eyre (1847)
We know that Bronte was much influenced by Byron’s poetry; indeed, Jane Eyre, published in 1847, even makes reference to one of his works, The Corsair.
Many readers of Jane Eyre over the years have been fascinated by Rochester, as he is not the type of love interest normally found in a romantic novel. He is rude, difficult, and far from handsome. However, Jane Eyre is no ordinary romance, and it seems in keeping with the novel’s gothic atmosphere that its hero should be decidedly Byronic.
Thanks for this very useful information, Paloma, and what is your opinion? I want your words and ideas, not somebody else´s.
Jaime I liked your comment and agree with you. Mr Rochester is a very interesting man and I am forced to acknowledge feeling envious of his confidence and resolution. Having read chapter XIV, I felt overwhelmed by “listening to” so deep a lecture given to Jane by the master of Thornfield, she being quite clever in her answers and able to keep up with his conversation even though she thinks it the opposite. I need to read the chapter again so as to make good use of it.
Paloma, I think Mr. Rochester is the other side of the coin when comparing with Mr. Darcy is concerned, however, they share the same proper attitude for a Master of an estate, don’t they?
Roberto if you read carefully my post you will realise I’m not making any comparison between both ways of behaving. I was only pointing out that, perhaps because of it was in fashion at that time, or because it’s more attractive for the riders of this kind of novels, I don’t know, Mr. Darcy and Mr Rochester share some characteristics. Of course there are great dissimilarities between them, but what I meant is to show that there are some resemblances as well, and I was thinking if they define necessary aspects in the hero of a romantic story. I don’t know if I’m making myself quite clear. Do you understand what I meant?
As Carmen just told us in class, chapter XIV is probably the highlight one of the novel. From my point of view, it is the best beyond a doubt so far. It’s a pity I had to leave the class when the discussion was to start.
Ok, Paloma I can see what you mean.
(Carmen, up to know:
48 comments posted on JEyre thread)
41 comments posted on P&P).
Beauty is said to be in the eyes of the beholder. As I am very romantic I’ve seen chapter fourteen from a really romantic point of view. These are my conclusions.
When meeting Jane for the first time, Rochester was quite “harsh” at first:J -“Are you injured sir” “can I do anything?” R–“YOU MUST JUST STAND ON ONE SIDE”
J-“If you are not hurt, and want help, sir, I can fetch someone either from Thornfield Hall or from Hay” “ I cannot think of leaving you, sir, at so late an hour, in this solitary lane, till I see you are fit to mount your horse”
Imagine, a man always “loved” because of his money being treated like this for a woman. For the very first time in his life! He had to be very touched. In fact he changes his manners and starts treating Jane more kindly. (Ch. 12)
When they meet for the second time (Ch. 13) He learns she is cultured, intelligent, creative and something much better: she is a rough diamond (even, more: he can be the diamond cutter!!)
And, finally we reach chapter 14. I think when Mr. Rochester calls Jane, he likes her and accordingly, has been observing her:
J-“He had sent for my port-folio; in order, doubtless, to exhibit its contents (like a mother proud of his son)
R-“You PUZZLED me the first evening I invited you down here” “I’ve ALMOST forgotten you since”
“I HAD FORGOTTEN THE SALARY” (he is thinking of her as a woman, not as an employee)
R-“People will instinctively find out, AS I HAVE DONE, that is not your forte… etc.” J-“How do you know?” R-“I KNOW IT WELL”
In the course of the conversation he feels strongly attracted to her and finally he falls in love with Jane, deciding she must be his “Reformation” and allowing himself that love.
He falls in love when she doesn’t speak to him at his command, forcing him to apologise. (She shows she has character, giving him a lot of freedom of action). Then, when she says “I don’t think, sir, you have the right to command me, merely because you are older than I, or because you have seen more of the world than I have; your claim to superiority depends on the use you have made of your time and experience”; and finally after her response speaking about informality and insolence. What Rochester says then (too long for being copied here) is the proof, please read it. “One does not often see such a manner” “not three in three thousand raw schoolgirl-governesses would have answered me as you have done” etc. Added to which, she has all the qualities he lack (he says she is stainless and envy her pace of mind, clear conscience and unpolluted memory).
She cannot imagine it but he confesses his love when describing how she listens to people.
As this post is already too long I won’t give you the clues about how he allows himself to love her, they began with ”It has put on the robes of an angel” and “Come I, bonny wanderer”. If you are interested in them, please ask me.
Please forgive me for such a long comment, but this chapter is so beautiful! I couldn’t help myself!
I didn´t arrive on time to listen to Carmen,no doubt her words were not addressed to you.We are many students in the class to participate and she misses our writing,but I´m sure she feels very proud of you and your appropriate comments,as well as Paloma´s, Maria´s and all those who try it everyday.
I agree with you about chapter XIV being the most revealing one.
In it we discover a new Mr. Rochester.Very interested in Jane,apologizing to her for his abrupt manners,and impertinent questions,for some of them are direct allusions and personal remarks.
The writer offers us some hints of Mr. Rochester former personality,which allows us to open our minds to his previous benevolence,and what´s more ,prepares the reader for an encouraging future.
It helps you face the coming chapters with high spirits.Not just thinking Jane had arrived to her next torment.
I have been waiting for this moment: a man in the novel, at the end... The most interesting of Mr Rochester, appart from his pisturesque and atractive personality, is that he is realy the first man who Jane is going to know in her life. A real man, I mean. She hasn´t even known her father and I don´t know if she knew her uncle. Probably, Mr Rochester is going to provoke a lot of new feelings in Jane. I think that it is possible that Jane fell in love with him. He is a person who makes her think about what to say or what to do when they are together. She knows that he isn´t waiting for her acting in the way that she is suppousse to do, like a lady, because he has perceived something especial in Jane´s actitude, in her behaviour. Always looking for something diferent to satisfy her curiosity and her lack of affection, she is going to pay especial attention to her relation with Mr Rochester, I daresay.
A very famous anecdote is told about King Henry IV of France. I know several different versions but I’m going to tell you the shortest one: The King Henry IV of France was a little bored of the continuous critics from his confessor about his affairs, and one night in the dinner, the King served to the confessor partridge in all the courses. This said: "Always partridge?" And the King answered: "Always Queen?"
That’s it, I’m afraid I’ve been too much partridge. You know, no matter how good partridge is, “always partridge get tired”.
Being the first time a man cross her path, Jane is lucky by meeting such a man even though Mr. Rochester seem to be rather peculiar. What do you think is the reason why he suffered so dreadful a condition when he was younger, only because of his family?
Good quote Paloma and your former comment is it, too.
I must say I really enjoyed chapter XIV, with all this "tension" between Mr. Rochester and Jane, the way he "provokes" her with such opinions as she had never heard before (about remorses and repentment for instance). I think he is willing to shock her someway...
By the way, Mr Rochester's character reminded me a little of the Count of Montecristo, which is one of my favourite books (it's French, not English, but, never mind, I loved it). As you may know, the Count was unjustly imprisoned, and as a consequence, lost everything he had (his new wife, parents...). So when "coming back to life", he takes some revenge against those who sent him to jail. He also finds his former wife married to another man... We can see how much he has changed - and how he has become quite an interesting character... He is resentful, cold-blooded (a bit James Bond, maybe?). We can feel how much he suffered - and still suffers. I don't remember a lot more details (I read it when I was 15) but it is a story I will not forget, very possibly because of the character of the Count... So I guess in that time, he was some kind of Rochester for me!
Anyway, don't you feel Mr Rochester is having a great time "playing" with Jane, trying to scandalize her?
Very funny the partridge remark!
Hi mates!
What interesting reasonings I do find always in this blog!
As for me, I'm getting a lot of excitement reading the novel, chapter XIV is quite interesting since many new things are revealed to us and to Jane Eyre! Mr. Rochester is this kind of man you'll feel inevitably attracted to,without being aware of the consequences (not always good ones). He reflects a soul in torment and he finds in Jane a soulmate to share his sorrows and dreads. Elena, I don't agree with you in the point Mr.Rochester is having fun "playing" with Jane nor trying to scandalize her, I just think Mr. Rochester is a lost and wise man who discovered in Jane someone who has gone through the same suffering, or at least similar situations that has forced them to survive.
I started reading next chapter and is even more powerful than the previous one!
Natalia, I mean that Mr Rochester may see her as an inexperienced young and rather puritanical woman... For instance, when talking about remorse and Jane says the foreseeable "Repentance is said to be its cure, sir"...
He seems to really enjoy this conversation in the sense he is totally aware of being "the first", the first interesting man Jane has met, the first she may have been attracted to, the first to "lecture" her on darker feelings and thus is really enjoying the moment... He feels important!
Moreover, as Jane appears to be puzzled at some moments of the conversation, Mr Rochester says: "You are not my conscience-keeper, so don't make yourself uneasy" !!
Anyway, it's true the book is growing more and more interesting in each chapter!
It's true that Jane seems to be an unpexperienced girl, but the fact that Mr. Rochester wants her to be his confident is a singular clue, don't you think? Contrary to all appearances Rochester hides a feeble or damaged heart looking for protection and love...
Natalia, I completely agree with you. I am nearly sure Mr. Rochester is completely serious when telling Jane such deeply thoughts and feelings, she being the right person whom you can depend on so that you might get relief from a forlorn experience, not only because she might be made for listening to other people but also by being and stranger.
Chapter XIV amazing, complex and interesting is perfect as a means to discuss about many different issues. Having read it twice, there are still some elements I am unable to pick it up and I hope you may shine a light to help me in this astonishing conversation within Thornfield doors:
- Mr. Rochester reminds me Fosco (new students: this is a character from the novel we read last year. “The Woman in White”), since he gets what he wants doing it oppositely to the way the latter does, though. I mean, Fosco is charming, delicate and because of his politeness and manners everyone does as he pleases. However, Mr. Rochester prefers to act more straight, avoiding unnecessary compliments. On the other hand, both of them seem to be always ahead of anybody else. Their mind is able to anticipate others’ feelings and actions.
- The more Jane tries to conceal her real character by means of her resources (thanks to her education in Lowood), Mr. Rochester let her be herself and you find out that she is not so “accomplished” as you might think. We can see the Jane of Gateshall, can’t we?
- Do you think suffering to be essential so as you might develop a proper wisdom and knowledge of both human nature and life?
- When referring to Jane as being not more beauty than he is, Mr Rochester makes me think whether he is saying to us that both of them are quite similar in personality. I mean, they are rather peculiar and opposite to everyone else.
- Jane has obviously interested Mr. Rochester and he is cynical saying he had nearly forgotten her. On account of his pride, might be?
- Do you think experience in life make us superior to others lacking of it? In my opinion, what you have is advantage.
- I do not understand why he says “I can get pleasure out of life”, nor when he explains he passes a law so as to achieve redemption.
- I completely agree with Mr. Rochester when saying that there is no distinguishing between good and evil if both of them have the same appearance. I think sometimes you don’t know how your acts are going to work out (consequences) till you have already acted.
4th paragraph,
I meant: Rochester "make" she be herself.
I forgot to add one more thing. Jane should have taken good advantage of the conversation since Mr. Rochester treats her as an equal, as a man. Some chapters before she regrets that women not be allowed to act and be considered like a man is.
Roberto, when you say you think Mr Rochester is "completely serious" when telling Jane thoughts, well... I do not doubt he is enjoying sharing those ideas with her. But I am sure we all usually have mixed intentions... So in my opinion, he may also want Jane think a bit at his sinful past, imagine even what he may have done with Cecile... in short, things Jane has never had the occasion to live. We shall not forget we have there a man and a woman - and it is frequent to behave this way, above all, when there might be some interest in both sides, isn't it?
I´m glad to see so many interesting comments here. Of course I want to know what you all think about the book and what you have to write but I cannot understand what the partridges have to do with Jane Eyre?????
Roberto, what you are considering is very interesting. I can´t agree with you where Fosco is concerned: Fosco is not a suffering man, he is too cold-blooded, he is more the Jackal. He is too cunning, he would have never been taken advantage of by Celine, Mr. Rochester´s mistress, and on finding himself betrayed, he would have killed her. I do see, however that they are both clever and ahead, in a way of other people.I do think that suffering makes one wiser, and I share your opinion that they are both peculiar and in a way cast out of their place by their peers. I think Mr. Rochester says he has forgotten her,almost, because he has and he tells her because it is the truth, how could he think of her so much when she is such a dim figure in his life?
What words do you mean and to whom did I say them, Silvia? As you say I want EVERYBODY on the blog AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE for YOUR OWN GOOD, have I made it clear once and for all? I´ve got a party at home tomorrow 30 people and where am I? here with you!!!!! I should be in bed, it´s 1 am, the blog means more work for me but I do not mind provided you improve!!!
You should value this tool and use it.
I´m glad Noemi and Elena Mr.Rochester has made the novel more interesting, last year we did not have a nice attractive male character but this year is different, he is great, you have to understand him, but if he looked at any of you from the bar of a disco you would be caught up in his net...
How are you liking Mr. Rochester? Not quite like our Mr. Darcy a ninny, can you say that of him?, compared to him.
I´ve just been in the film club and my God! It is amazing, well done it´s coming on nicely I´ll tell the 4ths to join in some activities and let´s see if I can too I´m not one for the cinema, you know, but when you go into the blog you feel like going!
CONGRATULATIONS
I have not been writing in this blog because I liked so much the novel that I went very far reading it, so it is now very difficult for me to comment something about the chapter we are discussing without being influenced by future events I already am acquainted. Anyway the chapters that are being exposed in class need to be read more than once. The more Mr. Rochester discloses of himself, the more he makes us guess that there are many other mysteries in his life we still not even imagine. At first sight he could be the typical pattern of the son of a “good family” that his condition of younger brother obliges to go away to make his life as a “self-made man”, subsequently silly wasting his fortune in a seducing French opera singer, and then again being responsible with a possible but not sure “fruit of this love”, the odd inhabitants of Thornfield (why do they need just for sewing a character like Grace Poole, whose place seems better fitted in an asylum than in the closed third story of a house?)
I do not know if this is the place to do this, but since I cannot do it elsewhere, I want to make a petition to my classmates: can we please keep a liturgical silence while one of our classmates is exposing her/his chapter? For many of us is already difficult to speak in public in our mother language, doing it in English is even more difficult, and to add the third step of the surrounding noise is too much. And to our classmate who is doing it: can you speak a little louder, please? We all are interested in what you are saying: please do not make it more difficult to listen at you.
I have a further suggestion about this topic, but I have been asked to wait on or two more classes before doing it.
Elena, there is an attraction between for sure. I think Mr. Rochester confesses this to a stranger far removed from his environment because innocence breeds confidence, in the certainty that purity, that an uncontaminated soul is nmore prone to forgiving.
Alessandro, you are absolutely right, they should keep their mouth shut while others are speaking. The novel is very interesting and I understand you are trapped try commenting your ideas without telling anything about the story, only what you think
Elena, Do you really think Mr. Rochester is enjoying himself telling such a story to a stranger as Jane is?. I consider it to be more like a relief.
Alessandro, you are completely right though as far as I am concerned I try to remain silent even though many times there is no paying attention because of the slight tone of student’s voice when explaining the chapter.
Going back to chapter XIV, I wonder why, actually, Mr. Rochester tells Jane she knows nothing about love for she has not ever experienced, though one day she will face those sentiments. Is he meaning that he might declare his love to her someday? I believe it is another proof of Mr. Rochester’s being quite interested in the governess. On the other hand, next chapter ends with a very absorbing thought of Jane’s. So much puzzled is she to fall asleep and her mind makes up a metaphor of her condition full of connotations: “Till morning downed I was tossed on a buoyant…” What do you think related to the issue.
Current chapter shows us Jane anxious, jealous, proud and even vain, it making me doubt whether we are in deed contemplating the real Jane Eyre, the one who lived within Gateshead.
As for Mr. Darcy, he is not so glooming as Mr. Rochester is, for in spite of sharing a past covered with mystery, the former does not have such a grievous background and does need to have it concealed. Besides, Mr Darcy is handsome and I dare share younger than Mr. Rochester. At any rate, both of them are rather peculiar, aren’t they?
Sorry, I meant: He does NOT Need to have it concealed.
Pride and Prejudice section threatening to overcome our blog though, I am afraid they will not achieve it even though they do their best. However, It would be very kind of you, class mates, if you helped a little to prevent that they should get it. It is this chance that may show why we are the foremost students in the school.
Let’s defeat them!!
Carmen, I was thinking about the issue we have been discussing today and I believe Jane falls in love with the Master of Thornfield about since they met for the first time within doors. On the other hand, I keep puzzling my mind whether Mr. Rochester’s speech towards Jane has sexual connotations or not.
Roberto, yes, indeed I think Mr Rochester is enjoying himself sharing his thoughts with Jane. I guess he is kind of testing her to see how far in the conversation she may go... In fact, it's Jane that ended it up, so puzzled she was! Anyway, as absorbing as that conversation may be, it appears to me quite hilarious that the intent Jane (as Carmen called her) finds herself involved in such a strange one.
As for the inflexibility of Jane, I have met several people like this, but all were men (and belong to the science field)... It may be that women are more used to mix with "normal" people or at least have this need of socializing... Anyway, I don't like very much this kind of people either- It's difficult to talk about banalities with them, they always discuss and refute everything!
Don´t worry Roberto. It is a won fight. I´ve been missed some days but here I am again, and fifths are going to win, for sure! We are many women in class and we have a marvellous Rochester to talk about! Though they have Darcy... I wonder why they haven´t written more, but... it´s up to them! ;)
I´m glad to see that not only women but also men are fond of Rochester, no wonder, because he is irresistibly mysterious with a very good conversation and, probably, in love. Isn´t it perfect in a man? For me, it is.
I don´t think that Jane fell in love with Rochester from the beginning, but she could seem to be amazed in front of such a man, the first one she met.
After reading chapter XIV, XV and XVI I don´t achieve to guess what Rochester feels for Jane. I know he likes some Jane´s virtues, but he sees her as a child who doesn´t know anything about life or feelings or business. She is Rochester´s diary (as he said more or less in a chapter) where he can unburden himself of his woes without being judged, like a confessor but without obtaining forgiveness. Not only is she a "girl" who listens and obeys, but also a "woman" who expresses herself, despite her disadvantage, sometimes in self-defense. It is her "duality" (girl-woman, I mean) that makes Rochester be interested in her in some way, but I think it is not love yet. I wish Charlotte Brönte told the story from Rochester´s words so that we might know his feelings and thoughts accurately, don´t you think?? I´m very curious, because he is not clear as Jane is now. She is really in love, "pathetically" in love as Roberto has said in class. She can´t help thinking of him in every moment, she expects to see him everywhere, even she feels jealousy. I almost die when Fairfax told her that he may not come back Thornfield till a year!! Oh my God, Poor Jane! A year without seeing her love, her only distraction and pleasure, after their first physical contact with obvious sexual connotations!! It´s like when they don´t call you the next day. Isn´t it sad and infuriating?
Now, moreover, Jane has a problem, the most beautiful problem called Blanche Ingram.
Elena, why do you say Jane is inflexible?
Very amusing comment, Maria. Specially the reference to the day-after-call... :) You're right, it must feel quite the same. But, do not forget it was Jane that left Rochester, who was overcome by emotion. So, coming to the facts, he may have felt that Jane wasn't at all attracted by him. I am not saying she should have jumped into his bed, but, even being a puritan, she could have shown some emotion! This reminds me to the discussion in Pride and Prejudice, where it is said that ladies shouldn't hide so much their feelings, because in the end, this may lead to a misunderstanding...
About the inflexibility of Jane, I was referring to a comment of Carmen I quite agree with. I think Jane is too analytic and usually brusque... Not an easy person to amuse yourself with, unless you provoke her, as Mr Rochester does... But I still find that Jane may mix better with men than with women, because of her character... Let's congratulate ourselves on her finding a Rochester that put some spice in her thoughts!
Concerning the role of experience mentioned by Roberto, I read an interesting sentence yesterday: "Two things control men's nature, instinct and experience." (Blaise Pascal) - I was immediately reminded of the book!
Don´t you think that kind of conversation must be highly embarrasing for a woman that has spent her whole live meeting no man but a priest?
On the contrary,I find her answers
quite appropriate for her condition(being the governess and having lived like a nun).
I guess she is going to fall in love with Mr. Rochester for she feels attracted to his roughness which she interprets as power,and because of his concealed tenderness.
Elena, it was Jane that left Rochester, but it was the first night. I am not saying that going to bed the first time is bad (what a conversation!), but there hadn´t been antecedents to know whether Rochester also wanted to go to bed with her. A woman needs to feel secure of being corresponded before taking the first step. And Jane only knew her feeling, not Rochester´s. For the first time was enough the "hand moment". Don´t you think? Now Rochester must insist. Am I being feminist? ;)
As for inflexibility, I see what you mean, but I think that Jane is a eigthteen-year-old governess, who thinks herself to be the wisest (some kind of a repellent, know-all girl). But that will change, I daresay, it´s a matter of time.
for the first time it was enough... I forgot the subject, sorry
Well, this is getting interesting indeed, well done to you all.
María, your analysis is very good and Elena, I´ve liked your reasoning too. I think Mr. Rochester is in love with her, she is boring, quuiet, and often brusque, not to say rude, however she does not judge him. This is welcome news, I´m a little tired of intolerant people who think that they can judge other people, Jane has no right to pass sentence on Mr. Rochester and that´s why she listens and makes him think of what he has previously said, with Jane it´s a question not a condemnation. Roberto, I think Jane falls in love with him when he talks to her, women like words, looks are never enough. The more she converses with her the more she feels for him, and it takes two chapters to work the miracle, if it be mirace that a girl in Jane´s circumstances with fall in love with such an attractive man. it is the fact that he codescends to speak to her and explain himself that does it, she finds that he is also an alien, a suffering man, and this is very appealing to a woman.
What about Mr. Rochester? He sees in her peace of mind a clear conscience, a pure heart, this is what appeals to him. Can you imagine Mr. Rochester falling in love with Elizabeth? Too much laughter and teasing, he would crush her in two minutes, he needs someone serious, intent, strong, independent... and lonely. Silvia, quite right, women are attracted by power and tenderness, both
I´ve missed things ,as I couldn´t read that much on this trip,I felt sick the three days,even today monday,but I find Maria´s and Elena´s comments very amusing.
The fact is that I should take notes of all of yours to be able to answer them,hahaha,so many quotes you make!!
Concealing the last Elena wrote;it reminds me the book "Sense and Sensibility",(another Jane Austen´s).In it everybody knows the two main characters(whose names I´m incapable of remembering now) love each other,but not showing it leads both to misunderstand the situation.What a pity,suffering till the end...!!
On the verge of losing their real love!!
I really liked that book,and the film as well! with Hugh Grant and ...oh God ,forgetting again!
Helen... something?Im sorry.Actually she is a very good actress.
I would need someone to tell me what you did in friday´s and monday´s class.Please.
I know this is not the forum,but does any of you recommend a good hotel in London? I´m planning to go in Christmas holidays.
Thank-you
I´ve missed things ,as I couldn´t read that much on this trip,I felt sick the three days,even today monday,but I find Maria´s and Elena´s comments very amusing.
The fact is that I should take notes of all of yours to be able to answer them,hahaha,so many quotes you make!!
Concealing the last Elena wrote;it reminds me the book "Sense and Sensibility",(another Jane Austen´s).In it everybody knows the two main characters(whose names I´m incapable of remembering now) love each other,but not showing it leads both to misunderstand the situation.What a pity,suffering till the end...!!
On the verge of losing their real love!!
I really liked that book,and the film as well! with Hugh Grant and ...oh God ,forgetting again!
Helen... something?Im sorry.Actually she is a very good actress.
I would need someone to tell me what you did in friday´s and monday´s class.Please.
I know this is not the forum,but does any of you recommend a good hotel in London? I´m planning to go in Christmas holidays.
Thank-you
Do you see so clearly that Rochester loves Jane as Carmen says? You say Jane is boring and intent, but doesn´t give any judgement. Do you mean that that´s the reason why he loves her? So, is it enough? In my opinion, Rochester missed to have someone whom tell his sins and misfortunes to, but more as a friend than as a lover, at least, for the moment. I´m not sure but I think that Rochester may see Jane as his wife (with the way she is: listener and conprehensive, and also obeyer) but not as his lover (by means of sexual, passionate, unreasonable attraction).
Sorry to double the comments,I don´t know what I did.Last time it happened the same to me!
I´m afraid only Carmen can erase them.
Maria, you anticipated me mentioning the “day after phone call” or at least “day after SMS” any twenty first century “gentleman” is supposed to make.
If we think that during the sixties of the twentieth century a song like “Let spend the night together” by the Rolling Stones was banned from radio broadcasting, and that more than one century earlier the readers of Currer Bell were not the same of John Cleland’s Fanny Hill, along chapter fiftheen Jane and Edward actually “spent a night together” from the emotional point of view. At this light the hand shake proposed by Mr. Rochester is almost “red hot”. Neither he nor Jane are able to go any further without breaking this magic moment. What follows in Chapter sixteen can be abruptly disappointing. Men that are brave enough to jump with a parachute or to attend an appointment at the Bois de Boulogne are usually coward to make this “day after phone call”. Mr. Rochester is no exception. I have encountered thoughts about this runaway. What can Jane think after prolonging the feeling of his hands in hers, looking at herself in an imaginary mirror, smoothing her defects to be able to believe to be able to fill Mr. Rochester expectation, to find later that the presumed frustrated murderer is calmly sewing in the same room she was hours earlier, and answers Jane’s questions in an almost cynic and ironic way, with nobody accusing or menacing her? And how can she manage when she knows that the man she saved from death has gone away without a word, to have good time elsewhere, and that other women exist in his life?
Mr.Rochester in love: (Chap. 15)
“My cherished preserved”.
Cherish:to love someone or something very much and take care of them well
“He still retained my hand, and I could not free it”
Maria,
For sure Mr. Rochester is in Love!It's true that the novel is narrated through Jane's mind and feelings but certain chapters such as XIV, XV and the ending of XVI show a men undoubtedly attracted to Jane, the way he holds her hand, how he approaches,the words he pronounces and the thorough observation he carries out.
I'm afraid I don't agree with you when expressing that Jane is "pathetically" in love, I don't remember myself being in love and behaving in a different way as Jane behaves. Imagine you are said you'll probably never encounter again your beloved, you wont react exactly the same as Jane?
Sorry, I meant IN A YEAR and NOT NEVER...
I think Mr. Rochester is undoubtedly in love with Jane. We see it at the end of chapter 15, after the fire in his room. Jane says goodnight to him four times, but he doesn't want her to leave him. He takes her hand and can't let go of it, which is an indisputable proof of his love. When we love someone we try to spend all the time with that person and farewells become unbearable.
We have been asked about the possibility of Mr. Rochester being in love with Jane. I think, at least, at this moment of the novel that he could be. Probably he still doesn’t know about it. He is not aware of it yet, but there is something sure, he feels attracted to Jane!
At the end of Chapter XV, when Jane leaves him, he says: are you quitting me already, and in that way? It reminds me that time you do not want to be finished, those afternoons you liked being everlasting… and you want to catch it as Mr. Rochester catches Jane’s hand.
The last question would be: and why Mr. Rochester is attracted to Jane? Carmen has pointed Jane’s innocence and purity (as Doña Inés virtue in the Spanish literature), and I agree with that, Jane symbolizes a white sheet where live can be re-written; but I add another point… could Mr. Rochester fell in love with his savior? In a similar way that girls surrender to the rescuer prince? Well, not in the same way, I cannot imagine Mr. Rochester needing of being rescued, he looks like a very strong man; but strong personalities need strong characters on their way and sometimes you can feel very tired of being the rescuer yourself, always saving everybody’s bacon, always being the brave, never affording a break, relentlessly… and Jane, the steel rock, the survivor, the natural born tough, could signify a break for Mr. Rochester, don’t forget he has been saved by Jane twice, the first time on the path to the small village, their first acquaintance, the moment in time when Mr. Rochester fell off his horse and the second occasion in Chapter XV, when Jane saves him from fire, from a horrible death!! And the most important thing, Mr. Rochester doesn’t feel he owns Jane an immense burden, he only feels a great relieve and this is a lovely sentiment to feel.
I have enjoyed Jane’s "duality" (girl-woman) from Maria, and as Natalia, I don’t agree with the called “pathetically” in love from Jane; love is that, this is just our behavior when we are in love :) I also agree with Carmen when she says women fall in love with men when they talk to, we like words… and finally with Henar, when we love someone we try to spend as long time as possible.
Quite interesting a discussion! So sophisticated and complex is it turning that there is no finding something else to add. However, I consider Mr. Rochester to be trapped by a mysterious event happened in his past preventing that he keep conquering Jane’s heart and despite his finding “quantum of solace” in her.
Natalia when saying “pathetically”, I meant that it is very sad having that thoughts when you are in love.
SILVIA, there are several hotels in Queensway (next to Nothing Hill) being cheap, comfortable and placed near the city centre. Besides the zone is quite and beautiful.
Umi hotel (http://www.umihotels.co.uk/)
Rem hotel (http://www.thereemhotel.co.uk/?gclid=CNz1r_HyoZcCFQI_MAodPEQQ-w)
Mistake:
..THOSE thoughts
Roberto,
Why did you say that?I don't think Sadness is the proper word to name Jane's thoughts and feelings, maybe a mixture of anguish, distress and pessimism, but those are feelings that don't endure (and vanish)every time they face to face or encounter.
I absolutely agree with all of you. I think Mr Rochester fell in love with Jane because she showed her innocence and I think that nowdays men are attracted to this character. I would like to listen to you (men) about this because maybe I am not in reason and I think that you know it better than women.
Maybe Mr. Rochester is also interested in Jane due to his previous relationships. After his affair with the french dancer he probably became disillusioned with women and now he has met Jane, who is an honest person, he can believe again in love.
Natalia, I am pointing to the supcious mind Jane has against Grace.
By the by, Silvia I also liked a lot Sense & Sensibility though I have only watched the film.
The main characters were:
Huge Grant
Emma Thomsom
Alan Rikman
Kate Winslet
And the score is very beautiful
Chapter 16
A few hours after the fire in Mr Rochester’s room, Jane wanted to hear Mr Rochester voice but she feared to meet his eye. Would she meet him? She would not. She was feeling so anxious that Mrs Fairfax said that she looked feverish. In addition, Jane found out that Mr Rochester would be away for about a fortnight and that he was in a place where not only were there fashionable people but elegant ladies too.
Do you think this day must have been one of the worse for Jane so far? Is this the self-confident Jane we are used to see in the previous chapters?
I enjoy our controversy! Most of you are absolutely convinced that Rochester is in love. Ok, you may be right. But I continue not being so sure. I prefer to be prudent and distrustful him, because he is a man. There are many clues (you are pointing out) which make us think he could be in love, but do we know it for certain? The "hand moment" could be only a way of quenching desire. Do you see what I mean? That situation had, in my opinion, sexual connotations and not loving ones. You will think I am a nasty-minded person, but Rochester only felt randy and was eager; however, he is a gentleman.
Falling in love is a good feeling, but: don´t you think that it makes people act in a pathetically way? It is not a criticism, but a description.
Alessandro, your comment is very funny! Roberto, what´s the meaning of "quantum of solace"? Do I have to watch the film to understand its title?
No, you don't. Guess! ;-)
You are bad... :(
I think Mr. Rochester needs someone in whom to trust, someone with whom to share his apparently terrible past which he finds it in Jane Eyre.
Ok, you said that what Rochester found in Jane was "quantum of solace". Does it mean serenity or peace?
Maria, this time I am of your mind. I think Mr Rochester was attracted to her that night, but is not in love. I don't think he is thinking about her all over the day... He is colder, maybe also because of his experience.
Anyway, I think it is not so strange to run away the day after... Wouldn't you feel nervous if you had looked at Jane the way he did and begged her to stay? Well, he probably felt insecure about her thoughts on that situation.
By the way, I particularly liked Nila's comment about the fact Rochester may feel relieved by finding someone trustful like Jane. Being a new feeling for him, he is curious and attracted to her! That's a good explanation! I think he also likes very much the fact she argues with him. In fact, in Chapter XVI Jane writes about this issue.
"I knew the pleasure of vexing and soothing him by turns; it was one I chiefly delighted in, and a sure instinct always prevented me from going too far; beyond the verge of provocation I never ventured; on the extreme brink I liked well to try my skill. Retaining every minute form of respect, every propriety of my station, I could still meet him in argument without fear or uneasy restraint; this suited both him and me."
Very interesting indeed! I think it is a good way to conquer someone. About the pathetic or non-pathetic attitude of Jane, I would say it's only human, isn't it? But, do men think "so pathetically" when they are in love? Or do you think it is a very womanly behaviour?
Elena,
Men in love are even more "pathetic" than women (If you want to call it so)...here we are told Jane's point of vue, but who is narrating Rochester's...Jane? That's the clue for me! She describes him accurately but doesn't depict his real thoughts...we have to guess through his actions, and it is thanks to them that I infer his love for Jane
How many different explanations!!!And how interesting all of them!!!
It may be possible Mr Rochester to be falling in love with Jane,for all he has met during his hectic live has been the antithesis of her and what he needed.At last someone smart capable of keeping him alert,quizzing with her conversations.(??? It doesn´t sound correct to me,does it?)
Pathetic!!!,hahaha,I´m sure,MARÍA,you didn´t think your words would stir so many people up!!
ROBERTO,thank you for your information about hotels in London.
I´ll note them down and try.
Humm...!!! Yes,Emma Thompson,she is the one!!!
It's my first time in a blog; I'm just trying to subscribe and see the results. I'll try to write something wiser afterwards.
María, going to bed was out of the question!!! but holding was was tremendously exciting when you like somebody, I remeber it being a very intense moment, small though it was!!
Alessandro, a fantastic post. You are absolutely right in saying that it was a very important night that they had spent together and we see Jane, who has percieved it as important, considering the possibility of a relationship and Mr. Rochester disappearing, running away, to a certain extent, and into another woman´s arms!!! MEN!!! How many times have women been in this situation? As to looking pathetic and acting so when one is in love, come on, María is absolutely right! Love is to be felt not to be shared or contemplated!!! it looks ridiculous unless you are in the middle of it.
As to your quote, Elena:
"I knew the pleasure of vexing and soothing him by turns; it was one I chiefly delighted in, and a sure instinct always prevented me from going too far; beyond the verge of provocation I never ventured; on the extreme brink I liked well to try my skill. Retaining every minute form of respect, every propriety of my station, I could still meet him in argument without fear or uneasy restraint; this suited both him and me."
I think it has been very well chosen because it explains the intellectual sympathies of both characters. Jane has been lucky to find and be aware of how to please and lead him on. How many women are capable of doing this? very few. I was also remimded of Elzabeth´s advice to miss Bingley:"tease him..." in Pride and Prejudice, do you remember? And this is what gives a woman power over a man...the problem being to identify what he likes and how to do it. It´s not sex it´s this..try...
Well done we are 100 posts ahead already. You continue to be the best
Hi classmates:
This is my first time in a blog. I love the way Jane is being aware of the love that she feels for Mr. Rochester.
She wants to lie herself about this issue, however she can´t forget him. Perhaps, she is a bit obsessed with this idea.
Sex was not out to the question! He was ansious!! And love is a quiet feeling, calm... Don´t you think?
Elena, this quote is wonderful because it shows Jane is very clever. Despite her assumed disadvantage, she knows how to treat and adress to Rochester so that he might feel attracted to her personality. She applies him a policy of carrot and stick, which makes him be mad about her!
Ana Ruiz, in my opinion it´s not an obssession, but simply love.
Natalia, I agree with you when saying men are more pathetic than women. Elena, I´m glad you are in my side!
"Tease him!", fantastic. Elizabeth Benneth is the most clever woman has ever existed in Literature, as for relationships is concerned, I mean (at least, among the books I´ve read).
Thank you Alessandro for your post, as women, we are very interested in your opinion, and María, you are always right, I supported you from the very beginning.
In my opinion, unlikely a man gives up his project of life because of a woman, but if he does it, probably that woman would lose the interest in him, besides love, women need to admire the man that we want to be with.
Oh my dear Susan, thanks for your support. How "english" it sounds. ;)
I also agree with you. The more a man is interested in you and besides whows it, the more you reject him. Women don´t like it.
I think that Mr Rochester and Jane are in love. Of course at the beginning until you are not sure about what are the feelings of the other person you are very insecure and you try to be mysterious, you don´t have to put all the cards on the table, do you?. Sometimes you show interest but other indifference, that’s not bad, I think that’s the game of love. Of course always one person of the couple is more interested than the other, but if that person knows how to treat the other part this thing finally will change for sure. Mr Rochester knows how to treat a woman, he is mysterious and provocative in the right way, always polite.
I don’t agree in the point that when a man shows his interest in you, you reject him. I think that it has to be a happy medium. Think about the situation when you like a boy very much: What happen if he does not call? You get sad, and you are realistic, he is not interested on me. But I do not feel more attracted to him. On the contrary if he phones you: You are happy and attracted to him. (Of course if the boy is calling you 10 times each day you finish hating him, he is a pain in the neck!!). I think the perfect point is a mixture of both things: when the other part shows interest but in the exact measurement.
I agree with Elena Martínez, knowing doesn´t necessarily mean rejecting.
María, I do not think Elizabeth Bennet is clever at all with men!! She herself says "I, who have prided myself on my discernment!" after perusing Darcy´s letter where she discovers that she has mistaken both darcy and wickham´s natures!! In my opinion Jane is more alert as to Mr. Rochester,in the sense that she studies him more because there is not much else to do but to observe and analyse him. Love is not calm, is it? love is powerful and strong but can be held within boundaies..for a time. It is calm when you are older, which is Mr. Rochester´s case but Jane is burning in her quiet but intense way and I do not mean that she would jump at any male to quench her desire but that it is inside her and she is like a volcano, quiet on the outside but on the verge of exploding..inside.
I found the tickets, thank God, inside my locker!!! How stupid not to check there.
Hello mates, as last night it was impossible for me to write in the blog I am writing now a small comment because I am in the office. Yesterday I enjoyed very much in class, the chapter was really interesting and the conclusions of it too. In my opinion Mr. Rochester and Jane are predestined to be joined for ever even we have not finished the novel, but we do not what happened in the next chapters.
I liked very much to read Hamlet and due to the Carmen's explications to understand the meaning of it better.
Well Carmen I agree with you writing in the blog it is a good exercise for us. Have a good week end. See you on Wednesday.
Regards for every people.
Mercedes Muñoz. 5ºC
Ok, I could have acted hastily in flattering Elizabeth. What I wanted to say is that she knew how to capture men (Darcy being arrogant, Elizabeth is cutting); but her pride and prejudice dissuaded her from her intention (Darcy). And yes, it is not clever.
Well, after our argument about if sex was or was not out of the question (I´d rather not expand too much on this subject!), I can say for certain Rochester is in love (chapter XVII). It is clear now that Rochester has left the drawing-room (where Miss Ingram was) to look for Jane. Now I can see both volcano.
The tension existing between lovers before their feelings have been acknowledged is by far the best stage in a romance. The rest is nothing..
"Oh for a draught of vintage!..."
About that tension... It's great, because it makes you feel different feelings, though all at once! But it also feels so much like being in a toboggan! You go up (when he looks at you, etc) but also down (whenever he doesn't pay you attention). It fills you with insecurity about yourself.
Regarding what Carmen commented yesterday on Jane feeling contented when she was at Lowood, though leading a most austere life, meeting no man and having only several books to distract her... I agree that it's desirable to feel like her in that situation.
But I wonder whether she (and we) could feel again contented with only that after having known Mr Rochester... For example, were she to come back to Lowood after spending one year at Thornfield,in which she has known exciting new feelings... Wouldn't she feel melancholic of all that and thus not contented? Wouldn't that be the real pain?
To get love is the most exciting process. I am in the very Jane´s inside and I can feel the toboggan (for example when she was squated to pick her shoe up, our Cinderella, and looked up and there he was, her loving man looking for her... A wonderful moment, the happiest one).
Elena, a very good question. Now Jane says she was contented at Lowood, but some time ago she said that she was not unhappy there, didn´t she? She has happen to find something better in life, which seems to be closer to hapiness. However, she must be happy at Lowood in the sense that she didn´t know anything better outside, Lowood being a jail. But now that she is "living", freely, she realizes she was not happy, simply was contented.
Sorry, "she has happenED to find..."
The chapter XVII is one of the most emotional that I have read and I have liked very much.Until Mr Rochester did not go into the room, Jane had not been in the room. Jane describes her emotions and feelings about Mr Rochester marvelous. She is deeply in love with him and her feelings spontaneously and she transforms what was ugliness in beauty. In one of tha pages Jane describes love with Capitals. Really, this is LOVE
First, I'm going to do a test.
Fantastic! This is working. What a emotion! It's a new experience for me. Tomorrow I will return on the blog and will do a comment about chapter 18 and "jealousy". Good afternoon mates.
Let us turn to a new point of discussion. Trying to make up her mind so as to acknowledge a relationship with the Master has no sense at all, Jane does her best to analyze her condition and reject any sentiment towards Mr. Rochester though with no success. Furthermore, the time he comes back with Miss Ingram and the other ladies, Jane shows us to be vain and proud, for she seems unwilling to admit her position as a governess, avoiding meeting the ladies, for instance when looking for Adele’s dinner. What about Mr. Rochester? You keep saying he fled from Jane, scared of having unclosed his sentiments before her, however, why does he bring back a partner with him?
On the other hand, I have noticed something curious by comparing the novel with Pride & Prejudice. In our novel, we follow the story throughout Jane’s perception except when the rest of characters speak to her, therefore, we only get to know them by means of Jane’s portrait and perhaps it prevents us to check whether Jane is objective or not. However, Jane Austen tells the story giving plenty of information about the characters and their thoughts; thus, we can get more perspectives and points of view, not just facts given by the protagonist.
For those of you who still have the shadow of a doubt about Mr. Rochester being in love with Jane.
Chapter 17th:
Jane says “I am not looking at the arch, yet I see him enter” and “No sooner did I see that I might gaze without being observed, than my eyes were drawn involuntarily to his face” (Because she loves him).
Then she adds. “Without looking at me, he took a seat at the other side of the room” and “I feared – or should say hoped? – the allusion to me would make Mr. Rochester glance my way; ….but he never turned his eyes” Nevertheless, he tells her: “And getting a good deal paler than you were – AS I SAW AT FIRST SIGHT.” Does this mean that he saw her in the same way as she did? She hasn’t seen him looking at her, but he has immediately seen she has something in her mind which makes her unhappy.
One more thing: in the end of the chapter he says “Good night MY”
My is a determiner, and, as you know, a determiner is a word that is used before a noun in order to show which thing you mean. In fact “my” (the possessive form of 'I') is a word used by the person who is speaking to show that something belongs to or is connected with himself. Ergo, after my there must be a noun, but Mr. Rochester, on purpose, fails to mention it. If the word were one without connotations, he wouldn’t have any reason to conceal it: my friend. But he doesn’t say the word, perhaps because he meant “my love”?
I’d like you would comment this apparent inconsistency, please:
“He is not of your order: Keep tour caste” and “He is not of their kind. I believe he is of mine”
Hi Paloma,
Nice to have you again in the blog, we missed reading your wise and bright post!
I totally agree with you when saying Mr.Rochester is completed in love with Jane. He is observing her all the time without being notice and he's really delighted with their short and misterious encounters!
Chapter 18. We can found in this chapter and odd defense mechanism.
Jane loves Mr Rochester but she isn't sure about Mr Rochester's feelings. So, she decides don't suffer and developes the following reasoning:
- He falls in love with me
- He is a sensitive person and only I am able to understand him.
- But... It's Blanche the woman that he will get married.
- Doesn't matter, the Mr Rochester's project of marrying is due to interest and connexions.
- Blanche will be his wife but his soul belongs to me for ever and ever.
In this book, Charlotte Brönte uses a first-person narrator, it being the protagonist of the story, Jane Eyre. It brings greater focus on Jane’s feelings and opinions, and on how she views the world and the view of the other characters. It is this literary tool that makes us become more deeply involved in the tale and more identified with Jane.
By contrast, in other novels the author prefers to use a third-person omniscient narrator which gives a panoramic view of the plot, looking into many characters and into the broader background of a story. This kind of narrator can tell feelings of every character.
In chapter XVII we can see how Mr. Rochester’s friends are seen through Jane’s eyes. Regarding her great “rival”, Blanche Ingram, she is beautiful, clever, she is educated and she sings very well. However she does not seem to be a nice person. Besides, her childhood tales about how she behaved with her governesses show us her wicked character. Despite this Mr. Rochester seems to be very interested in her and even observing the way they talk, we can appreciate a sort of flirting between them.
As for Mr. Rochester feelings, for the time being I am not sure if he is already in love with Jane. At the beginning, during his stay at Thonrville, Jane was the only person who he could talk with, and it was this fact that made them become closer, but the truth is that she is 20 years younger and that she is the mere governess of his daughter; thereby even if had he been in love, I don´t know if he would have taken the first step with her. It would not be the first time that someone swallows his own feelings because he is forced by the situation.
I agree with you, Paloma in the significance of Mr Rochester's using of "my ...". This was a most charming scene! I love the moment he notices she was about to cry... This sort of moment is so genuine!
Jaim(e?), about Mr Rochester behavior to Blanche, I think he is sensible to her beauty, but he may also despise her because of her superficiality. But he is playing his role to perfection - he wants to marry her, doesn't he? And we can see he can be cold whenever he wants to. For instance, he does not speak to Jane in the evening, knowing that she is alone, behind the curtain. However, after that, he runs after her to he asks why she had not approached to speak to him. Do you think he really meant it? Could he truly expect a governess would act like this in so unfriendly an environment? I confess Mr Rochester keeps surprising me once and again!
My mistake: he runs after her TO ASK why...
Teatro de la Abadía: MEDIDA POR MEDIDA de Wlliam shakespeare: ¿Quien peca más: el que tienta o el que es tentado? (Angelo)
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It is quite interesting how Jane, forced to show herself before the party, scans anxiously all the ladies trying to find out any weakness either in their appearance or in their behaviour so that she might feel not so undeserved under Mr. Rochester’s eye due to her social status.
If Mr. Rochester be in love with “the governess”, there is still something that prevents him going ahead with his sentiments towards Jane. Thus, she is doomed to keep puzzled when disclosing his real feelings is concerned.
Teatro de la Abadía: El Auto de Reyes Magos: “Esto es grand maravila, un estrela es nacida” (Gaspar)
From 3/12 to 11/01
El Auto de los Reyes Magos es una pieza única en la historia de nuestro teatro. Hallado en un códice de la Biblioteca del cabildo de de Toledo, hoy conservado en la Biblioteca Nacional, constituye el único drama del siglo XII compuesto totalmente en lengua vernácula, siendo a la vez el drama más antiguo relacionado con el ORDO STELLAE (la Epifanía), que se ha conservado en lengua vulgar. Nos encontramos ante 147 versos que nos permiten realizar un viaje escénico hacia los orígenes del teatro español y sumergirnos en ese período de valor estético extraordinario con identidad propia, que denominamos Edad Media.
We went to see the play yesterday evening. I strongly recommend it to you. Everything there is perfect, from the smell, (yes, it smells of incense), to the light and the environment. The clothes, the colours, the music (genuine medieval music played with authentic medieval instruments, some of them surprising), and, most important, the language, immerse yourself in the play to the extent of forgetting the time.
There is only a "problem", but, even this, is better for us: the texts are the original ones, but the pronunciation is not the medieval one. Those of you who have studied Literature or Spanish philology perhaps would be a little disappointed, but, for the rest of us understand the language becomes easier.
I know I should post this in the other blog but since the play is shown during very little time I want to be sure you read the advice. I addition I wasn’t sure were to post it.
Dear Paloma, thank you for reminding this Auto. I think that the "right" place to post similar information is: http://eoigoyainglestheatreclub.blogspot.com/2008/10/outings-without-marta-missing-marta.html
Anyway a short note in Jane Eyre blog will always be welcome, since not everybody checks the film and theatre blogs constantly.
Thanks for your cultural advises. This weekend has been apparently the Theater weekend in Madrid, I being in Soria where it´s snowing...
In my opinion, Jane gains every self-confidence that had lost in the previous chapter. When Mrs Fairfax described Miss Ingram, Jane became exasperated, a pretty rival could take her man off, and she mistreated herself at the comparison. It was very sad. However, in the next chapter she recovers, after the scan, by seeing Miss Ingram lacks.
It is very funny how Jane, a woman in love, analyzes, first of all, every woman, while any single woman would have gone straight to put her eyes on men. That´s very true.
It is very interesting Rochester´s behaviour toward Jane, now that Miss Ingram is in the scene. We know he is in love with Jane, but for reasons unknown to us, he expects to marry Blanche. In my opinion, that situation is just too much for him. He is probably the first surprised of being in love with Jane, however, he has a duty to his bussiness (the marriage of convenience with the pretty and empty Blanche?). And as a good negociator, he doesn´t want to lose anything. Have I answered you, Elena?
Jaim, I agree with you. I´d also like to have an omniscient narrator sometimes, in order to know Rochester´s feelings. But it is not a book where many intertwined stories are told, but only one story about a woman and a man. So, the rest means a little.
Chapter 17
Lady Ingram is talking about governess class faults. –What are they? - inquires Mr Rochester. She diverts the answer into Miss Ingram who will not tell anything good of a dozen governesses she and her sister used to bear. The point is that the anathematized race was present.
When Jane leaves the dining-room she happens to runt into Mr Rochester who shows great interest in Jane and talks in such a way that a few more words would bring tears to her eyes. In fact a bead is slipping from the lash.
Which of them is going to be Mr Rochester’ bride?
For those of you who have already read Jean Eyre o know the story, I’d like to recommend another book or its film (I’ve found it in internet in English without subtitles) .
Wide Sargasso Sea is a 1966 postcolonial parallel novel by Dominica-born author Jean Rhys.
The novel acts as a prequel to Charlotte Brontë's famous 1847 novel Jane Eyre
• Winner of the WH Smith Literary Award in 1967, which brought Rhys to public attention after decades of obscurity.
• Named by Time Magazine as one of the 100 best English-language novels since 1923.
Maria, I liked your discussion about Mr Rochester not wanting to lose anything. You are true he might be the first surprised in being after Jane... This attraction is confusing them both.
Paloma, thanks for the cultural advises, "Medida por Medida" will be played "Del 11 de marzo al 26 de abril 2009" - It seems quite interesting.
I've looked in the internet for the novel you are talking of, but I quitted reading about it because it may spoil the plot for those of us who haven't still finished it. Anyway, it seems interesting.
I think I made a mistake because I can not say "you are true he might be.." instead of "you are right he...", can I?
Jane has interested me! So beautiful and sincere are the feelings her mind expresses while observing Mr. Rochester that I think Jane to be deserving of his love more than anybody else (ladies indeed) in the room.
Hi folks! JI´m back. As some of you know I went down to the country and I´m a bit behind news. I´m going to bed but tomorrow I´ll do the reading and catching up with you
Very interesting comments as usual!
Thanks Paloma for the information about the plays: there are no tickets for El Auto...and we will get them for measure for measure...for march. As to what you point out of their being of the sme cast it´s only natural that Mr.Rochester and Jane Eyre have to be socially capable of being together, so their spirits are similar, this is what she is saying. to me Jane shows the same kind of self-will that has enabled her to survive her difficult life so far, she told the mmaids that she would not call her cousin her master, and now, plain and all she stands up to the beautiful Blanche, always sure, certain of what she thinks. She has the strength of justice, she being the judge and jury of course, which is what I find slightly annoying, but I think this is always like this when you perceive you are,often morally, right.
Roberto, I´m glad you like Jane Eyre, I, like Mr. Rochester, envy her.
María, do you think that mr.Rochester wants to marry Blanche Ingram? He certainly likes her, who wouldn´t, but he is too sharp. Don´t you think that he has perceived her character? Why does he like Jane? What does he envy? Does Blanche have this quality this puritanical correcteness which appeals to Rochester? How many women has he met like Blanche Ingram? No... perhaps he is using her...what for?? Apart from that Blanche is beautiful...that´s all she´s not even rich or well off, she is not very tempting, is she? It is the coldness that does it, I think.
welcome to the newbies, post it´s fun!
Carmen, do you mean that Jane is, in some way, haughty? Do you see some arrogance in her behaviour? I see it and I´ve said so in my last composition, but now I´m thinking I could be a little hard...
I only know about Rochester what Jane says. If he likes Blanche, why is he sharp? And if he is using her, isn´t it because he wants something of her? Isn´t it a bussiness? A marriage of convenience? But, is she is not rich?? What has she?? I do know nothing. All are conjectures.
I wanted to have written “if she is not rich, what has she?
I usually find it really difficult to understand some things men do. In chapter 17th Mr. Rochester behaves in a way incomprehensible for me. I’ve seen this same behaviour several times in real life and I’ve tried to understand it, but I really cannot.
When all people is called together in the living room and those witches of the Ingram (mother and daughter) are nearly insulting Jane (because what they are saying is “de facto” an insult or, at least, a grave affront), what does Mr. Rochester do to protect her and to avoid her to be wounded? nothing!. Supposedly he loves her, don’t he imagines what the Ingrans are saying are going to hurt Jane? Why doesn’t he changes the subject immediately? Why does he allow things go so far? And after that he is so cynical as to ask her for her depression! Come on!
I just don’t understand why some men allow other people say nasty things to the woman they love or behave towards her in a very disrespectful way. I’ve heard thousands of times women complaining about her husband behaving like that in front of some “in law” (mainly “THE MOTHER ”) and I wonder, if they aren’t coward, what happen with them? We say in Spain “silence implies consent” I such case, is Mr. Rochester consenting to the Ingrans ‘statements? Are they more important to him than her? Is he more concerned in no offending them than her? I assure you, sometimes I’d pay to know the way in which men’s brain works.
Sorry but last-minute changes in my text have driven to one mistake repeated two times in different degree. As I don't want your eyes to be damaged I consider my duty to correct them:
Doesn't he imagine (sorry two mistakes y one verb) and doesn't he change (without s). Any way at least third time lucky and the third question is right constructed. Perhaps there is still any hope to me.
One more thing, after reading my post I think a sentence is not clear and I want to explain the meaning: Some men allow OTHER people say or behave. I don't mean they do, but they allow other to do. Women don't complain about her husband telling them nasty things but about the mother in law telling them those things while their husbands remain silent. Is it clear?
Jane grasps perfectly the class of man that Mr Rochester is, despite belonging to different status. In Jane's words "He does not of their kind.I believe he is of mine..I feel akin to him. I understand the language of his countenance...I have something in my brain and heart, in my blood and nerves, that assimilates me mentally to him". Can Blanche be akin to him even though they pertein to the same class?
If we go by the clues we have in chapter XVIII, I agree with Lidia when she says that Jane knows Mr. Rochester will marry Blanche –for family or perhaps political reasons as Jane says- but Mr. Rochester is in love with her. Our feminine main character understands this fact and tries to resign herself, is not that true love? the purest love? With any hope but still remaining…?
Do you think Jane would admit being Mr. Rochester’s concubine? If Jane’s predictions turned out and Mr. Rochester marries Blanche, will be Jane capable of being “the other”? or at least staying with the married couple taking care of Adele as long as remaining with her love?
Paloma, you have a point. We are used to take our man's defense more often than they do with us. Maybe it's connected to the fact that we also idealize them more than they do. And that's why we always want to change them... Instead, they usually have a more healthy attitude in this, though it may sometimes appear outrageous as in Mr Rochester's case, during the chat with the Ingram's.
Raquel, I like very much the quote you mention. I read some weeks ago, I don't remember where, another one very similar ("De lo que sea que nuestras almas estén hechas, la suya y la mía son lo mismo"). But, is it enough?
Nila, about Jane's resignation - I think you can maintain this status only during a short time. I frankly cannot see Jane tormenting herself near Mr Rochester and Blanche... She is too practical for that. Maybe for some months, but were it so, she would be fading... near him, but fading anyway. It would be too much for her, don't you think?
María, Jane is definitely proud. She has that determination in her character which I personally find annoying and admire!!I think that this is what Mr.Rochester finds attrative in her, she is a prospective martyr, do you see what I mean?
Paloma, Mr. Rochester cannot stop the Ingrams, what speak up and ashame his guests to protect the governess?? This is not done nowadays in drawingrooms either!!! and how many people defend guests themselves when someone is nasty to them? Do you get up and leave the room and make a scene? Do children do it at school? give it another thought. What surprises me is Mr.Rochester´s concern for Jane which was totally out of the question then.
Elena, I think that women defend more because it´s our role and has been so for centuries. We are also more susceptible and find offence where a man wouldn´t this is why they do not intervene when we would expect them to. Again we can look at it the other way: how many time do men correct their wives? Some wives are permanentely making mistakes and they do not seem to notice!!! I´ve never received a phone call,or word from a husband trying to say sorry for his wives mistakes!!
chapter 18 is highly interesting from the point of view of Jane´s feelings. that quote about their being alike is very biblical, don´t you think? That of having the same flesh, etc. I supose you feel like that when you are in love, whether it be true...well...it´s not.
Carmen, not to protect the governess but to protect the woman he loves. He is supposed to be an intelligent man and a man of the world, in my opinion such a man should be able to change the subject without this fact being notice, is so simple as to drop your coffee cup or being unexpectedly choked, or something similar. He didn’t need to shame his guests. Another different point is what you says about he not even notice the offence, but , knowing Jane as he does, he could imagine she would be upset by those comments. She is not a girl used to being with people of that kind, in fact she is nearly hidden so that she can go unnoticed, she is “a debutante”, this is her first time in society, and among people who are not of her social class.
Aren’t men aware of those things? Are they unable to help their women when they need their support the most? Sometimes very little is needed but they do nothing at all, and women usually suffer in that situations.
How interesting is the book. You could feel the tension in the air. After the fire in the house when Jane saved Mr Rochester’s and he took her hand he realized that she was in love with him. The day after she was expecting to see him, but she discovered he has gone to another house for several days and that in this house there is another woman prettiest than her and with a better position in society, what can Jane do?. Mr Rochester had gone with another woman that supposedly would be engaged to him in a future. She is so jealous that sometimes she can’t hide her feelings (she once dropped a coffee in front of the rest of the servants). When Mr Rochester got back home he arrived with many people and he had dinner with them but Mr Rochester required Jane’s presence. Jane was unable to talk to him and neither to look at him, she even seemed rude and unfriendly to him, but that was because she was sad because she knew she couldn´t compete against the other woman. I really want to start reading chapter XVIII tonight because at the end of chapter XVII when all the guests went to sleep Mr Rochester wanted and needed to talk to Jane (because he loves her) but Jane is so shocked by the situation that she decided to go to bed.
Paloma, I agree with Carmen, What could do Mr Rochester do in that case? He has a social position, it is logical that he couldn’t defend Jane. Oh my God!!! He is love and with the governess, he has to hide this, if he defends Jane they will see what is really happening and that is no convenient for Mr Rochester. Iwouldn´t like to be in Jane´s shoes.
MISTAKE: SORRY I WANTED TO SAY; THAT AFTER MR ROCHESTER TOOK JANE´S HAND , SHE REALIZED SHE WAS IN LOVE WITH HIM
ANOTHER MISTAKE: WHAT COULD MR ROCHESTER DO IN THAT CASE?
BY THE WAY ELENA (GIL) DID YOU SLEEP YESTERDAY, YOU WROTE YOUR LAST POST AL 1:30 GUAOOOO!!! AT THAT TIME I´M NOT A PERSON AND UNABLE TO THINK ABOUT JANE EYRE ;-).
Elena, in fact yesterday I was unable to sleep until late for the man living upstairs was apparently relocating all his furniture - I suppose he must have felt inspired!
Coming back to today's discussion about Jane's hopes on Mr Rochester marrying Blanche or not, I believe she stayed in the living room mortifying herself only because she could sense Blanche was not Mr Rochester's kind. Were Blanche to be a not a pampered haughty woman, I do not think she would have stayed so long...
I think that until that moment Jane had a little hope. On her last meeting with Mr Rochester he took her hand, so she has her head in the clouds. The next day when she expected to meet the man she loves she was surprised to hear that he had gone with some friends, and one of those friends is Blanche, the person that everyone told that would be Mr Rochester´s wife. In that moment she lost all her hopes. When Mr Rochester came back to his house with his guest, and order Jane to stay with them she was absolutely conscious that she could never be Mr Rochester´s wife. Perhaps Blanche didn´t have many things in common with him but they belong to the same social status, and in that period of time it was really important. When they were talking she was unable to look directly to him, she was really suffering, but in some way she had to be there because Mr Rochester was her Master and she had to obey his orders.
I think that if she really would have any hope she would have stayed with her love when he wanted to speak to her. Mr Rochester noticed that something was wrong with Jane, What will happen on next chapter?
By the way Elena, what you have to do with your neigbour that likes to change the furniture very late at night is the next weekend to put the radio very loud when he will be sleeping.
I don´t think Rochester had to defend Jane either. It would have been unnatural.
I agree with you Elena G. Jane likes being at the drawing room because she knows Rochester is not going to love so haughty a woman. However, she wants to gossip, which is natural, because when you are in love, you want to know everything related to your loving man: what he´s doing and with who..., trying to guess his thoughts; even though it makes you suffer ("delicious poison" or "a prospective martyr" that Carmen said). Though Jane believes she has not the chance of seeing her love requited.
As for Jane´s hope is concerned, I think she could hope to be loved by Rochester (now that she doesn´t see herself being inferior than Blanche, in personality I mean, nor in social status), but not to marry him.
Elena, love your neigbour because he makes you write on the blog! ;)
Chapter XVII – Is no one a little bit surprised about Blanche Ingram’s strong opinion on men? Of course, I do not pretend to find a 20th Century feminist, but I think she’s expressing in a very strong way her thoughts and preferences for, let’s say, “macho men”.
She says it a number of times: “to my mind a man is nothing without a spice of the devil in him …… he was just the sort of wild, fierce, bandit hero whom I could have consented to gift with my hand”
And isn’t she somehow telling Mr. Rochester how he should behave to be loved and admired by such a “marvellous” woman like her? Isn’t she giving instructions on how he should conduct himself if he wishes to marry her?
Well, I find the whole conversation a bit shocking.
According to chapter XVII-
Watching Rochester with Blanche, Jane realizes that she´s helplessly in love with him. Meanwhile, she sneaks away, about to cry, Rochester catches her in the hallway, (luckily this is the Mr. Rochester I saw in my dreams), but he lets her leave when he sees that she´s about to cry, (of course, it is not the moment and I hope he will have his chance), however, Mr. Rochester demands that she come to the nightly parties for as long as his guest remain at Thornfield (Mr.Rochester is revealing his own feeling for Jane), yet, by commanding her to attend the parties but he still doesn´t treat her as an equal, she is being assess at the moment, (I think so).
Now Jane´s emotion comes from her belief that her social position will make it impossible for Rochester to love her.
( And now the most exciting part of the chapter). He finishes with the words, “ Good-night, my...”(I know it....my dear, my love..) before cutting himself off.
This was a very exciting chapter!.
Hello mates, today is not my day, this little sentence is only to know if I can send my comments as I used to do, it is the third time I tried to send it.
Hello mates, after reading Chapter XVII I have the impression of being in presence of one novel which intrigued me too much. All the previous comments are good and some of them really fantastic because they show us different aspects of Jane and Mr. Rochester.In my opinion Mr. Rochester is playing with fire but he could be burnt. He knows how to use, to manipulate Jane but the problem is that she is very clever an she is in love with him so we don't know what will happened in next chapters. Happy week end and kind regards.
Mercedes Muñoz 5ºC
It would not be posible for Mr Rochester to love a servant in the nineteen century, so I agree with Carmen, the author has to resolve this issue giving a high origin to Jane, probably related with her mother's family. In spite of being clever and educated, we can't forget she is a governess, which is almost a servant in that time and none of men that belong to a high society would marry her. However, Mr Rochester realizes that he is falling in love with Jane. How will he resolve this contradiction?
The more I read the novel the less I believe in Mr.Rochester's love for Jane...I don't konw, but all the play with Blanche and the other guest...I find it pretty "normal" for the high society Mr. Rochester belongs to, but that other game both maintain (Jane and Rochester)I really find it out of place; of course he feels atracted to Jane and considers her as someone special, but being honest, what else she could get? They belong to complete different worlds, and I do not imagine Rochester losing his high standing and prestigious for a servant's love!Anyway I get a lot of pleasure reading their sudden encounters ,it is so romantic and sensitive that I can almost feel Jane's happiness through her narration!
I’m seeing in the blog that many of you consider a governess to be a servant, or at least something similar. You are mistaken and as a proof I beg you to read the next essay:
A Historical View of the Victorian Governess
Carissa Cluesman
Although the governess serves as the heroine in Jane Eyre, she was not a popular figure in Victorian England. The governess did not have a social position worthy of attention (Peterson 4). Aristocratic and middle-class Victorians were not even sure how to treat the governess. She was from the same class, but her lack of financial stability made them view her as their inferior. Perhaps the clearest definition of the governess was stated by Lady Elizabeth Eastlake in the Quarterly Review:
The real definition of a governess in the English sense, is a being who is our equal in birth, manners, and education, but our inferior in worldly wealth. Take a lady in every meaning of the word, born and bred and let her father pass through the gazette (bankruptcy), and she wants nothing more to suit our highest beau ideal of a guide and instructress to our children. (qtd. in Peterson 10)
The only time a woman of birth and education was justified in seeking employment was if she found herself in financial distress, and had no relatives to give her support (Peterson 6). The position of governess was especially appropriate for a lady who sought employment because of the death of her father, or his financial ruin. It was considered appropriate because, while it was paid work, it was in the home. The governess avoided the immodest and unladylike position of public occupation. The position of governess would not cause a lady to lose her social position (Peterson 6).
The governess most likely suffered from "status incongruity," which means she is neither a servant nor thought of as full member of the employer’s class (Bell 3
In her essay on the governess Peterson quotes one observer who claimed that "the real discomfort of a governess’s position in the private family arises from the fact that it is undefined. She is not a relation, not a guest, not a mistress, not a servant--but something made up of all. No one knows exactly how to treat her" (qtd. in Peterson 9-10). Governesses had a way of coping with status incongruity. This most often took place in a form of escape. With the governess this might take the form of day-to-day isolation from the family circle, either by her choice or theirs. This allowed her to avoid the moment of stresses of conflicting roles (Peterson 16).
The governess was stereotyped by the upper-class.The stereotype of the down-trodden, pathetic governess, however, stands in sharp distinction to the warm, jolly nanny. The ideal governess came to be a homely, severe, unfeminine type of woman (Peterson 15). This denial of a governess’s womanliness, and her sexuality was another way of reducing conflict that could arise from jealous wives or mothers. The sexual dimension of the relationship of a governess and men in the home are rarely mentioned in literature (Peterson 14).
Perhaps the relationship of a governess and a man are rarely mentioned, because between a governess, and a gentleman there was no easy courtesy, attraction, or flirtation, because she was not his social equal. The pattern of relationships between gentlemen and their female domestics could not fit either, because a governess was not entirely inferior (Peterson 13). While the governess’s class tended to be the same as her employer, her financial status made her to be considered unequal socially. The relation of the governess between men and women was strained by her position. The reason for this strain was, perhaps, the fear the lady harbored of losing her husband or son. Middle-class men had a tendency to stay at home until they married at the age of thirty. Unprotected by her own family the governess was vulnerable to sexual approaches (Hughes 119
Women saw the governess as a threat to their happiness. Because of the threat the governess aroused in the home, an attractive one was usually not employed (Peterson 15). Foreign governesses posed less of a threat; therefore, they were preferred to the English governess. The foreign governess was sought after because her place in society was not easily determined. The foreign governess also offered the opportunity of acquiring fluency in a foreign language (Hughes 105).
In the mid 1800s several organizations were established to find better employment for governesses. These organizations also provided temporary housing, insurance, and annuities for the aging governess. As for the life of a governess, perhaps Bronte described it best when she wrote to a friend regarding his daughter. She claimed as a governess his daughter would never be happy (Bronte, "On the Requirements" 274).
Works Cited
Bell, Millicent. "Jane Eyre: The Tale of the Governess." American Scholar 65 (1996): 263-8.
Bronte, Charlotte. Jane Eyre. Ed. Beth Newman. Boston: Bedford, 1996.
---. "On the Requirements of a Governess." Strong Minded Women & Other Lost Voices from Nineteenth-Century England. Ed. Janet Murray. New York: Pantheon, 1982.
Hughes, Kathryn. The Victorian Governess. London: Hambledon, 1993.
Peterson, Jeanne. "The Victorian Governess." Suffer and Be Still. Ed. Martha Vicinus. Bloomington: Indiana UP, 1972.
I’ve summarised the essay so as to shorten it. As you can see it was wealth and nor social class what makes the difference between masters and governesses. What Jane would need to marry Rochester is money, only money. That was the point at that time: “If you have to work you are not my equal, no matter your birth”
"It was wealth and not social class what maked the difference between masters and governesses" ¿Cuantas veces ha dicho Carmen que el peor error en una cleft es poner what en lugar de that?¡Pero que burra eres Paloma!
I´ve just read the chapter XVIII. Jane tries to explain us that she knows that Mr.Rochester is going to marry Miss Ingram. She is aware of Mr Rochester doesn´t notice her and never turns his eyes to her but she thinks this behaviours is not enough to unlove him. Do you agree?, It wouldn´t be better to be realist, maybe Mr rochester doesn´t deserve her love, do he?
I think Mr. Rochester would have liked deep down to defend Jane from the other Ladies,but his coldness,his countenance and his social position wouldn´t allow him to do it.
As for Jane ,of course she " needs" to be next to him ,anywhere he be,she "needs" to set him under scrutiny,no matter who is he accompanied by.She has to control the situation,him and the guests,even if that means suffering to her.
She enjoys staring at him forgetting the others around.
Elena M says she should have talked to him when he asked her to,but she was trying to be hard, to make him know she had been hurt,that she was upset and that´s a punishment for him.
Blanche Ingram decribes men he doesn´t like,so Mr. Rochester can deduce what she does like,very similar to him?!!!
By the way,a lot of men like these go back and forth nowadays,don´t you think so?
Maybe they are not that bad!!!Hahaha
I think Mr Rochester likes having someone after him, observing him, loving him (as everyone does). And there stands Jane, that peculiar governess who he somehow feels attracted to, to play that role, taking the rough with the smooth. But, what else could she do? She is so bored in that house, with no society... no wonder he shall her entire world. I do not seriously think she would be able to unlove him until she leaves the house. But it would be good for her interests to "tease" him a bit more - following the cat and the cord's game -
By the way, Elena and Maria, thanks for the advices! Against noisy neighbors, up to the moment, I have only tried defense (earplugs) but maybe you're right and it is high time I launched a sharp attack!
Hello,
Well Paloma, I share your idea of consider this chapter as the most important we have read till the moment. For me, this is because Jane has contained herself unconsciously. She´s been living a kind of pause in her life.
What do you think?
Really reading the novel and at the same time some of the contradictory comments on the blog makes the whole thing quite thrilling. Hitchcock would have learned a lot coming to our classes. Wouldn’t he?
ahah, Hitchcock would have enjoyed here very much, for sure.
Silvia, why do you say Jane wanted Rochester to be punished? Where do you see it? If it is so, I lost it!
Paloma, I´ve read your summary, but I don´t really know what you want to say. Are you only saying that we musn´t use the word "servant" or that we are wrong by thinking Jane to be inferior. Because I think that Jane´s inferiority is a fact, isn´t it? Whatever be the reason (now we know it is money). If Rochester married Jane, their marriage would be as bad seen as if he married a servant.
I agree with Elena Gil when saying Rochester likes having someone after him. Moreover, I´d daresay that that someone is Jane. Not only because he feels attraction, but because he knows Jane loves him. Don´t you think that he must notice Jane´s love for him? If Jane is feeling all things she said, they must be noticed by Rochester in someway. It is very difficult to conceal your sentiments when living with the man you love.
Jane says she is not jealous (which is an admirable sentiment though a little bit unreal, too much trusting, from my point of view) because she sees herself over Blanche. It is pure envy that Jane feels, thinking that it is Blanche that is going to enjoy Rochester.
I don´t know what the most interesting chapter is, but I am really hooked.
I forgot to mention the sibyl! I don´t believe in them, but I´m looking forward to seeing what she is going to say!
Hello everyone! After sometime as onlooker on the blog, I’ll try to write something about the novel. Please, excuse my mistakes; I have been long time without practicing English and looking for a while for reading the novel.
Well, such interesting subject is love! Love, love, love, always love. At this point of my reading (17th chapter) I don’t still know if Rochester is in love with Jane or not (for me, he only seems to like her), but it’s pretty obvious that Jane is in love with him.
He was trusting about women in the pass time (poor guy…), but after the way life hit him, he needs now to be sure about his choices. He is not convinced of marrying Blanche, despite her physical beauty and skills, because she is frivolous and trivial comparing Jane. Jane looks defiant but courteous, proud but respectful, not beautiful but well-formed.
Perhaps he is looking for a balance between getting a good marriage socially accepted with Blanche, or not marrying but having a stimulating affair (she doesn’t belong at his upper class) with the intelligent and lovely Jane … or being husband and lover at the same time (if so, could Blanche stand this situation? could Jane?)
Passionate as Rochester seems to be, he also looks crafty…
very interesting comments,all.
Hello Jack, so you are reading with us? fantastic, you know a lot about love for women..you practice. Then, tell us which is Rochester going to choose? Which do you think he finds more attractive? suitable to his disposition? Which would appeal more to him considering his circumstances?
Elena, I agree with you when you say that it´s easier for Jane because she discovered that Blanche was not so well suited to his character, but then this discovery has been made by all women who love! I have seen anyone admit that rivals are more suitable or worthy.
Paloma thanks for the very interesting note, but I hope you are not trying to prove that Jane´s marriage with Rochester would be ok? We have always said that she was "next to a servant" not a real servant, since she takes tea with..Mrs. Fairfax! Economical position was and is vital for social position, and when you are a "noveaux riche" you are accepted in certain circles and when you are a "noveaux poor" you are not. Governesses had often been born in good families, but never in really good ones and regardless of their birth they were governesses and rich men did not marry them!!! Exactly the same as now, currently in Madrid, in Gstaad, in New York, in London there are places, houses, parties, weddings, to which educated people of good families do not go, let alone the governess!! For me it´s amazing that you do not see it, however you are still convinced that Marian Halcombe used her sister to obtain a family and live well, so this year it´ll be the same with social position.
Pilar, I have also noticed Blanche´s taste and description of favourite men. I think that she has this romantic idea of the heroic lover, but she says this to sound interesting and daring (Blanche would, currently, take drugs), what she really wants is a rich husband. She probably thinks that Mr. Rochester fits this description.
Natalia, I do think Rochester is interested in Jane, he has met the other types but this is the first time he ahs noticed someone of Jane´s, probably because he is the for the first time mixing with a governess.
María is right when she says that that marriage would be despised "Are the grounds of Pemberley to be thus polluted..?" says Darcy´s aunt when she considers that Lizzy could marry him and she was a gentleman´s daughter, who does not cook as her mother tells Mr. Collins, don´t you remember?
Well and now to bed and the next chapter, starting 19..Night, night
In the next chapters we will see how the affectionate confilct of Mr Rochester is resolved. There are some mates who are thinking that Mr. Rochester is playing with Jane but he is not, he is fall in love with Jane. There is a complicated relation between three characters, how is this situation going to resolve?, the reading is very stirring, it seems incredible that a love book is so interesting. So we must hope what is the matter.
Well, I asked Mark (my husband) what was the status of a governess in XIX century in England and he told me they were considered as household staff, not as low as the servants because servants were illiterate and the governesses have to have certain education. Their job was to educate the children so they were just employees of the house, and they didn't belong to the family, so it would be very difficult for the masters to fall in love with them.
Hello dear class mates, how many comments you have posted!
The last week there was no finding time to write and I longed for coming back. Having scanned all your comments, it is high time that I added my “but” to some of them. However, before starting I’d prefer it if you let me say something, once more, to the students who are not joined the blog yet.
Please, do not be afraid of writing even though you think your level lower than the one showed on the blog. It does not matter; this is the way to achieve accuracy with your writing and, in time, for sure you will get it. It will take you both patience and a huge effort to reach it though all of us are able to do it. KEEP GOING!
Jack, I don´t think Jane could be the lover if he married Blanche. Were it so, probably that would be Rochester´s choice (having all: a good position with Blanche, and love affair with Jane). However, I don´t think Rochester could act so neither, now that he is clearly in love.
After reading chapter XIX (amazing chapter), we see that it is the guests and not Jane that Rochester is playing with. I can´t say any more, I don`t want to spoil the plot.
Carmen you are right by saying Jane acts both as the judge and the jury and it is this fact that makes me a little bit disappointed with her.
Paloma, Mr. Rochester does not defend Jane before the rest of the party due to circumstances, it does not make sense. Besides, we do not know yet whether Mr. Rochester has made up his mind when the sentiments towards the governess is concerned and we cannot expect that he should place himself under a very disadvantage position as acknowledging such sentiments could be.
Raquel, we see things by means of Jane’s perception and Miss Ingram is obviously described subjectively, impartial as she tries her beliefs to be.
I think Jane is cross on account of the few chances she has to succeed in getting Mr. Rohcester’s love. What ways does she have to overcome Miss Imgram? None but hoping The Master of Thornfield take the final step.
Pilar, Miss Ingram is only a handsome woman and nothing else would induce me to consider such portrait of a man as the correct one.
Susana, I think the quote you posted very interesting (the one when Mr. Rochester tells of Jane for quitting the room) and I would like that we discussed a little about this situation.
Mercedes, Mr. Rochester might play with Jane but I believe he does not mean literally either “playing” or “manipulating”. He is interested in her and notices she is not the sort of woman he has met so far; thus, he has to look for another ways of provoking so that he can find out more about Jane’s character which we know it as being a very ungovernable one.
Jack I agree with your comment.
Sonia, don’t you think many times the best love signal is when the person you are in love with seems to ignore you? Let’s quote something showing this belief from “Anything else” (Woody Allen’s):
“-SHE- You must really have a crush on me.
-HE- I do?
-SHE- I'd say it's fatal.
He kisses her.
HE- I'm sorry. I, uh... I couldn't resist.
SHE- Don't apologize. I wanted you to.
HE- You did?
SHE- Yes. I've had a crush on you since we met.
Couldn't you tell, the way I was ignoring you?”
NOTE: If you have a crush on someone, you are in love with them but do not have a relationship with them.
Rachel,Thank Mark for his tip. I think that coming from an English man the matter will be put to an end finally!!!
Hello !
Roberto, it´s true. The most difficiult the man is the most we like, but I think it´s conected with the age. I mean, it´s a matter of youth, even of adolescence(so Jane is).
Don´t you think so?
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