6 de octubre de 2008
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Wilkie Collins
Quiénes somos
- EOIGoya_Inglés
- El Departamento de Inglés de a Escuela Oficial de Idiomas (EOI) "Goya" se suma con este proyecto de blog, con el blog de teatro y con su página de vídeos en YouTube a la explotación de las nuevas tecnologías como parte de la enseñanza de idiomas en la enseñanza pública en Madrid. Un cálido agradecimiento a CMF, sin cuya colaboración esto no sería posible.
Concurso 2007-08
855 comentarios:
1 – 200 de 855 Más reciente› El más reciente»Hello everyone and welcome to the new section we´ve opened today. We are eager for your posts.
When you start reading a novel you are facing the entrance into a new world, the world of the characters that live in it, and it´s a wonderful experience; you are going to meet a whole new set of people placed in a very different environmentto that boring one you live every day! Let it engulf you, allow yourselves the luxury of enjoying the reading and do not let any difficulty prevent you from achieving this goal of reading, understanding and enjoying Jane Eyre
Wow!!!! EXCITING! Wonderful comment, dearest Carmen! I'm going to read it myself! I'll join you!
By the way, I'm IMPRESSED!!! You remembered how to post new threads!!! AMAZING! Well done!
Hey, did you know that Hitchcock's movie "Rebecca" was inspired in "Jane Eyre"?
;)
PS!!!!
Ayayayaya! I mean Daphne Du Maurier's "Rebecca"!!! Sorry about that! I loved the movie so much that I forgot it's based on a novel!!! (Blushed face)
At length the new course has already begun and I am glad to have a new chance so that I can keep improving my writing, Jane Eyre being both an exciting and marvellous novel to discuss. I completely agree with Carmen’s comment.
You might identify with this portrait of so humble a character, no matter whether you are a man or a woman, since her sentiments, concerns and wishes are thought as the same you have these days. No sooner had you started the book than you feel you are Jane Eyre!
As for new students, it is this blog that will make you achieve an accuracy with your writing skills, so do not give it up, come what may.
Mistake:
... achieve writing skills with accuracy.
Accuracy is not a countable noun.
Hello everybody! The first chapter is really interesting and very actual. It’s very surprising the way of describing the relation between children, the brutality of their little world and the cruelty of their actions. John is terrible, he is like an “esperpento”. He is shown as a mirror that give us a distorted image of criticised vices as avarice, vanity, brutality… a real “gem”… and the way of treating his cousin Joan shows us the ideas of the differences between social classes and the importance of money even in these young ages.
María Luisa 5ºC
Yes, you are right María Luisa . What it really makes me feel pity for Jane’s condition keeping suffering such a behaviour is the fact that there is no finding support at all, you being deemed to suffer alone.
Welcome to the new course!!! I hope that this year would be as productive and funny as the last one. Yesterday, it was very nice to meet old faces!.
This year the novel is quite interesting, when you start reading it you can´t stop …like The woman in White. The story tells the life of a little girl who lives with her aunt, and how this lady and her cousins treat her. How a girl is force by her personal situation to develop a survival instinct. The novel also talks about friendship. This novel is a good way of learning human behaviour.
ELENA MARTÍNEZ 5º B
Hello to everybody!
After reading your comments and listening to what Carmen said yesterday about Jane Eyre, I am really looking forward to start reading it! I will do it tonight, hehehe.
This summer, I really enjoyed Jane Austen's Persuasion. I loved both main characters, Anne and the Captain.
So see you in the blog!
Goodness me!! you have written a lot!!!! Roberto you are randy! How we’ll manage to follow you?
Anyway, I just wanted to say hello to all of you after the long summer, but, I’ve already seen I’ll have to start the novel right now if I want to be up to the date with your comments! Are you attempting to beat the record we got last year? If so, our new mates will have to get a move on, (and so will I).
Yesterday night I started reading the novel. I watched the film when I was young, but I don´t remember very well the plot, thing which makes me happy... I hate to know the end. In spite of having read The woman in white, I find difficult the vocabulary.
As soon as I started the book, I felt affection for Jane, how poor a little girl, surrounded by wicked ones.
Hi Paloma! We did miss you this summer! Of course we are attempting to beat the record we got last year, and we´ll do so.
I have already read two chapters and I feel completely hooked!
Having Carmen again as a teacher is a great chance to continue learning and improving in English. So let's make the most of it!
Hello everybody! I was looking forward to seeing you again. Well, I read "Jane Eyre" this summer, I didn't know it was going to be the novel that we have to read, so it is a pity that I already know how it ends. It was a splendid novel, difficult at the begining because of the new vocabulary but easy to follow.
Roberto I have to apologise to you. What I said in my post wasn’t what I meant. What I wanted to say is that you are going at a great speed with the novel and the comments but, unfortunately, I’ve looked up a word for that idea in the dictionary and made a terrible mistake. I meant you “estás lanzado” but not in a sexual way ¡OF COURSE! Sorry but I’m creasing up with my mistake. I swear, I don’t think at all you are “salido”. SORRY.
Hello everyone!
I agree with Raquel because today I´ve read the first chapter and I found it very difficult, but anyway, I think I´ve understood something because I agree with your comments.
Paloma y Roberto: thank you very much again!! last year you were excellent classmates. As you can see I don´t write as well as you but this year I hope improve because I´m in Carmen´s class ;)
Sorry, I´m Laura 5ºC. I hate computers. I don´t know why my group didn´t appear (I wrote it!)
Well, I see that if I miss visiting the blog one day i´ll have to do a lot of catching up!! HELLO to everyone and welcome you to the fifth year because we are fifths, not that shitty thing with so many letters and such little level!
Michelle, it´s good to see you are with us on line, though not at the school...we miss you terribly and FEEL your loss whatever you say...IT IS A TREMENDOUS LOSS! Yes, you are surprised I manged to do it but...I used your notes!! I reasure them in one of the drawers of my desk at home!!
Maria Luisa, I´ve liked your comment on John Reed very much, it´s very well written and analysed.
Roberto, you write so well, heck you have improved so much, I find myself sending the new comers to trace your last years´posts to gain a little confidence...we all know what is in store for them...
Paloma, very funny indeed!
Rachel, do not breathe out a word about what´s coming... do not worry about having read it once, I´ve read it about 9 times and like it more every time I re-read it.
María, read you first posts of last year, same difficulty with the vocabulary and yet you won the contest!! do not complain so much and learn it
Elena Martinez, very good beginning!
and the rest well done I can´t answer everyone individually every day because you are a lot and now I´m going to bed to get some reading done myself!
I’ve already read the first chapter. It has remembered me Mansfield Park very much. Both novels show the same situation, and, also, the same reaction on the part of the girl. There is, nevertheless, one difference. In Mansfield Park there isn’t physically maltreatment, only moral, which makes Jane’s situation even sadder.
It seems in the 19th century the children’s mistreatment was very common in England. Perhaps it was the same everywhere but it appears more frequently described in English literature. If you remember, last year we read an article in Time speaking about the great number of problems youth create nowadays in UK, setting it down to the really little affection they get during their childhood. The conclusion was that even now, British people don’t like children.
John Reed seems promising… He is so cruel…He is like a botfly. He is such a disagreeable person. He loves disturbing everybody that is around him, but he is the only child of the house and also the favourite of his mother. He doesn´t study, he doesn´t get on with his sisters at all. He does nothing, so he has to spend his time bothering everybody, specially Jane Eyre.
When Jane Eyre is reading the book, he doesn´t want the book, the only thing he really wants is to bother her and to take his mother´s attention. He knows when to cry or when to shout, he knows his mother is going to punish Jane Eyre and not him. He always has the reason he is Master Reed.
ELENA MARTÍNEZ 5º B
Miss Reed is blind, as a lot of mothers are when they look at their children. She doesn´t love Jane at all, but she has to look after her, it´s her undesired duty and she shows her non-conformism being even blinder.
I completely agree with you, Elena.
We´ve said this in class, Paloma, the English cannot cope with children but they can describe their feelings, particularly those of suffering very well. I´ve also mentioned Mansfield Park. The main differrence being, always in my opinion, that in Mansfield Park the little girl, cannot remember her name now, wins everyone´s heart and Jane does not. there is something in Jane Eyre which is not inviting, and I think that in way she is stubborn, or haughty or strong? we´ll see.
John Reed is the product of pampering and thrift, there is no restraint put on him and that is the result.... what will become of us with the new and pampered generation? How many times do we say to children or the young "stop"... They are Reeds...
Paloma, never mind. I did not get you wrong.
I enjoyed the discussion we had in class related to the first chapter, Carmen giving us a new perspective of the reasons why poor Jane is thought as being an unsociable and sprightly child. Mrs Reed forced to bring her up, Jane is expected to behave properly under such circumstances, nevertheless, Jane is only a child acting by her feelings and wanting of mischief, thus, it is up to Mrs Reed to get on with Jane’s attitude even though Jane does not fit in.
Elena, I think you have succeeded in describing John Reed’s character though I would like to add another vice to this villain’s portrait. I dare say he also keeps bulling Jane due to his lack of self esteem when he is apart from his mother’s protection.
Poor Jane, shut up as she was at that gloomy, scary room. When I was reading the description of the room I was feeling without breath, as if those heavy curtains and dark walls should fall over me. Really the bedroom is described like a coffin or a grave.
Perhaps the worst punishment for a child is to be left alone and isolated in a dark, unknown room, where the imagination is free to see phantoms and evils in every corner. Truly, the Jane’s image in that room is the real illustration of the most desolation and despair.
Sorry, It is "Jane's image " not "the Jane's image"
Hi, everybody!
I agree with the opinion that John Reed is cruel. But we should not forget that he is just a child, he is 14 years old. It is true that there are good persons and bad persons. But also the way one has been brought up is a crucial aspect in the behaviour of a person. In my opinion John Reed could be a “victim” of his own mother. Mrs Reed is responsible for Jane´s suffering.
Jaime I agree with you. It’s a mother’s responsibility to be solicitous about “all” those who are in her care. Furthermore, she is a bad mother and is not doing well her work : she is not bringing up her son. Because of her, he will never be a good man. Some things can only be leant during childhood, then, it’s too late.
When I was a child I was told this history: A robber was going to be executed in the gallows. His mother was crying and complaining by him and he told her:” Don’t cry mother, it’s your fault I go to dye, if the first time I robbed a pencil at school, you had scolded me I would have learnt what is right and what is wrong and now I would not be here”.
The same will pass with the little John; children have to be taught, NEED to be taught.
Susana 5ºC dijo
Hello everyone!
I think you are right about John Reed, he is the main victim.He is a lost soul without real affection. I don´t know why her mother is using him and as we see he is already a monster with 14 years old, but I am afraid there is nothing to do about his behaviour, his personality is consolidated at that age. What kind of life is expecting him?, I detest his mother more than him.
Hello everyone my name is maribel (5.C)
I am really grateful to all of you for your comments. you do encourage me to keep on reading, jane eyre´s book is amazing with all its deatiled descriptions, but it is driving me up the wall. I am spending so many time with the dictionare!. did it happen to you at first?
Don’t worry Maribe. At the beginning of each new book I have the same trouble, but when you are advancing with the plot, the dictionary is not so necessary as at the start because you will be absorbed by the characters than you will know the sense of the words without looking for the meanings.
Maribel, don´t despair. You musn´t get obsessed with words, and be patient. I felt as you last year. I found the book very complicated, almost impossible. I wanted to know the meaning of every word, but it was not neccessary at all. If you don´t understand something in the novel, you´ll do so in class, with Carmen´s enlightening explanations. Another way of understanding and improving is in this Blog. If you write regularly about Jane Eyre, you´ll see that it gets better, I assure you.
Come on Maribel, don´t worry!!!. Welcome to the blog!. The important thing when you read the novel is to get the general idea of the chapter. It happened to me last year when I Started reading the Woman in White, but at the end of the course I realised that I could read the book more quickly and easily without looking at the dictionary. This year the novel has too much vocabulary but pay attention to the general idea of the chapter and don’t stress if you don’t understand a word. I can promise you that in a couple of months you will notice your improvement.
ELENA MARTÍNEZ 5º B
It´s amazing how fluently you write in English!!!!! Well done!
Maribel, persevere and do not worry about not understanding ALL OF IT, do you fully understand anything in life? I doubt it very much!
Jaime, you have exonarated John Reed to a certain extent and I see your point, Mrs. Reed and thus mothers are to blame in the education or let´s say in the faulty education of their offspring...but the subject himself also is to be blamed. There is absolutely no mercy in John Reed and mercy is the privilige of the powerful. Read what Shakespeare says about this in the Mercahnt of Venice, or rather let´s see if I can post it in the blog and we can discuss it in class.
I would like all of you to think about mothers and make some comments about your "mummies" and their treatment of you.
I have been really lucky. I think my parents had given me a good education. They gave me the freedom I needed. For example, when I needed to go out till one hour they allowed me always knowing where I was. But if I had done something wrong of course they punished me. I think that is the secret to educate children. You have to be flexible but at the same time firm. The parents who think that controlling all the time their children is the best way are wrong; if you tell your children not to smoke, probably they will do it outside the house….. And if you spoil your children too much and let them doing all they want, they will take this costume and do that wherever they go and with everybody. It has to be a mixture of both attitudes, what do you think?
ELENA MARTÍNEZ 5º B
Hello everyone!
I'm the Silvia who joined in in summer with Persuasion. Of course I'm already reading Jane Eyre; I started it yesterday and went to bed at 2 o'clock in the morning!! :) I agree with some of you that the vocabulary is a little bit difficult at the beginning. But once you are involved in the story and get used to the author is not a problem any more. My piece of advice it not to use the dictionary.
An aspect of the novel that made me think, was the fact that back then, not all people had the same "value". I mean, Jane is considered less than a servant, because she has no money, no influent relatives, and therefore the other children think to have the right to humiliate her. John knows he has a good social position and will always have, and that is why he feels so powerful. It is really sad. But, may be it is still like that nowadays?
PD: It is amazing who good your English is, people! When I first found the blog in summer I read all your comments in a row... and I can tell you, you have all improved amazingly! Keep on!
Very interesting comments!I agree with you all.As I am a mother,I felt touched about parents being responsible for their children attitudes.Absolutly true,even every child having their own temper they keep imitating you the whole time.So your reactions ,your manners your way of speaking are always being examined by them.The three brothers and sisters,John,Eliza and Georgiana have small features,characteristics like their mother wich is showing an awful and cuel inward.Of course that should never exonerate their behaviour.
Cruel,I wanted to write cruel.
Hello to everybody. I am very glad to have been accepted in group 5º B. I am very fond of the way Carmen teaches and of her energy, her preparation is of course out of discussion and I hope not to deceive her as a pupil. I also like very much the writing style of Charlotte Bronte. Every chapter, no matter how short it can be, can show us in detail a completely different landscape and make me feel as if I have read hundred of pages. For instance, In Chapter One Jane is already ten years old. In few pages, I feel like if I have known her (Jane) all my life, as if Mrs. Bronte had described in detail every day of her previous life, even more than if she actually have done it.. Not a word is superfluous (of course she was not paid some cents for every written word as some magazine writers are today!). I also appreciate very much two basically different approaches of describing the child feelings that blend completely smoothly, one from the point of view of a young inexperienced child, the other from the point of view of a grown up Jane that remember her early years at that “turning point” when she begins to rebel against her destiny.
About John Reed, is a character that sadly fills the news in today’s Spain too often. If he grows up and still have money and power, he will be an irresponsible business man. If he otherwise has not, he will realize that he cannot go on being the centre of the universe her mother made him believe to be, and the frustration that this will originate will be paid by the weakest beings around him…
I'm impressed by what you have written! Whith respect to John's behaviour, I think he is fourteen years old in XIX century, I assure you he knows what he is doing to Jane, thus, he is responsible for it. However, it is the parents that must bring up their children, punishing them when they don't behave respecttfully and establishing limits and rules of conduct for them to become reponsible adults.
I absolutely agree with all of your wise comments.
Jaime and Paloma, both of you are right, for it is Mrs Reed that should be pointed as the chief of Jane’s grief and desolation. I think, Silvia has a point on saying children are a reflection of their parents’ behaviour. I think that is the key to bring up them properly, besides, Elena has also expressed an important belief so that we might not only grow up with freedom but also with a sense of responsibility. Perhaps, Mrs Reed treats Jane with so high cruelty because of her lack of success in growing up her own children and moreover, every single person within Gateshead is selfish towards Jane.
Alessandro, I liked your comment.
As for poor Jane, María Luisa portrayed quite faithfully the dreadful condition she is to pass through, it being the worst experience a child might suffer, is not it? However, I really think Miss Abbot’s comments as being even worse than the punishment itself “And you ought not to think yourself on an equality with the Misses Reed and Master Reed, because Missis kindly allows you to be brought up with them. They will have a great deal of money, and you will have none: it is your place to be humble, and to try to make yourself agreeable to them.” “Besides,’ said Miss Abbot, ‘God will punish her: He might strike her dead in the midst of her tantrums, and then where would she go? Come, Bessie, we will leave her: I wouldn’t have her heart for anything. Say your prayers, Miss Eyre, when you are by yourself; for if you don’t repent, something bad might be permitted to come down the chimney and fetch you away.”
Any way, I love Jane’s attitude, it being sincere and full of dignity.
In my case, my mother is kind, sensitive and her children are her life; however, she is possessive when her family is concerned and it makes you feel trapped. Besides, suffer-ing from a chronic illness, she is moody and some times cruel.
MISTAKE: is IT not?
I just realize that days ago Carmen asked everybody in the blog to talk a little about our mother and how she educated us. My mother died twenty four years ago but had such a big influence in me that I still find myself thinking in commenting some news with her. For instance, when I started reading Jane Eyre two weeks ago I thought “ This novel seems to be very good; I should tell my mother that I am reading it, she probably did the the same a long long time ago but she surely remember it”. She was a very cultivated and sensitive person; I enjoyed this when I was grown up, but when I was in high school she taught some years in the class next door. It was a shame for both when I was not very prepared. It was a relief when we moved to Sicily and she taught in a different school than the one I attended. Back to Caracas, she was a support in my studies at the University (that I interrupted making her quite sad) and the Conservatory, that she appreciated a lot.
Well done to you all for your comments. Roberto you have sense and have picked out the nasty Abbot, how can anyone say this to a child? However do you remember that not so long ago Spanish children were threatened with "..que viene el coco.." whatever that was! and this by family!!! Servants follow the track of the family and Jane becomes the scapegoat of the whole house!!
Alessandro thanks for your comments and it is true you are very fortunate to be in that group...nice surprise, isn´t it? didn´t expect it, did you? It´s fantastic that you still think so much of your mother.
elena education is very difficult but your parents found the perfect balance..because you were also up to the confidence they deposited on you. It´s not always easy or possible to get to know your children or to understand them, or to keep them under control because not everyone has psychology, or empathy, or firmness, but of course we should try.
Mrs. Reed finds Jane an emcumbrance and wants to get rid of her, she has a pathological hatred for her we´ll see if she can change...
Silvia, you sure like our blog and it´s very nice that you support our students but you are a graduate and they are not!! vocabulary they have to study, it´s vital, to express yourself well and to enjoy yourself when you read!!
Bessie is nicer with Jane, she may feel some compassion for her. However, Abbot is cruel, acting as if she were a mother without having had children, probably, without understanding them either.
The most difficult issue in life is to educate and understand children, who are machines of imitation. What they see is what they do: like father, like son.
I usually love my mother, though sometimes it´s very difficult; above all in the distance (I mean on the phone... isn´t it horrible?). What I hate more in her is when she shows off me when she is in public (thing which makes me feel totaly embarrassed) and then she forgets all my goods in private, she spends all her time giving me instructions or criticizing my decisitions. Do you know what I mean? Does it happen to you? If it is so, sorry!
Encarna 5ºC
Hello all! This is my second time that I can’t try to write some ideas in this blog (the first I failed). The first is that all the comments are so interesting, and good encourage me to read this book for following them. The second is that I’m thankful for using the inversion structure, which I don’t remember very well at this moment, but I’ll hope to do it soon.
Since Jane is free from the red room, until she is looked after at the nursery by the two servants and the apothecary, she shows us a deep change in her personality. During her interview with the doctor, she appears as a mature child, thinking about the consequences of her answers to the doctor’s questions. Her aunt, cousins and servants had achieved to sew prejudices against other social classes. She needs a more warmth family, but she doesn’t desire to receipt love with poverty. It is really surprising that we often think about troubles in childhood without considering real Childs’ feelings. Jane is aware of her chance in having such a conversation with the only adult who is paying her attention at that house, and she is clever enough to avoid to spoil it and that’s why she reflects every answer carefully.
Carmen, I totally agree with you that it is absolutely necessary to study vocabulary if you want to master a language!! I did not express myself correctly. What I meant is that you should not get obsessed with vocabulary when you read, specialy when you start a new novel. What I do is not to look up in the dictionary the very moment I do not know a word, but I underline it to look it up in the dictionary. Sometimes the word appears again and again, and then you understand the meaning and do not forget it any more. And what also helps me when I learn a new word, is to use it as much as I can.
Regarding the education we got from our parents... I must say that mine were quite strict, at least if you compare them to the nowadays standards and sometimes also a little bit overprotective, as most parents are in Spain. I find it very interesting to observe how differently parents interact with their children in different cultures/countries. Me, myself, I do not have children yet, but I can imagine that the problem is to find the balance between firmness and excesive tolerance, between being strict and not being able to say no.
As for Jane, she did not want to know about her potential relatives because they are supposed to be poor. Maria Luisa, I think she does desire a loving family but she automatically thinks that poor people cannot be loving and affectionate. She imagines poor children who run around all hungry, dirty and ragged. What do you think about this? Did poor people not love their children? Did they not have the time or the energy?
But is it love to spoil your child and let him convert into a John Reed?
You write so much, so wisely and so well that’s nearly impossible to add something new or original. Everything about Jane, Abbot and the rest being already said, I want to tell you something as a mother and a daughter. Several years ago I used to blame my mother for the way she had brought me up, mainly for her mistakes, the importance of which I really exaggerated a lot. Now I am in her side, I’ve got grown up children plus a teenager and a boy. Since they were born I’ve been always trying to do my best; I’ve attended courses for parents, read hundreds of books about children and teenagers: how they think and react and the right way of treat them, and spoken with experts in upbringing. I’ve tried always to listen to them, being empathetic and avoiding comparisons or judgement on their personality. Even so, I’ve made a lot of mistakes and, as a result, I’m also being blamed for the oldest ones. Perhaps parents always try to do our best although not always we achieve our goals. And perhaps children always judge our parents with excessive harshness.
There´s a big problem nowadays with children not respecting their elders.Maybe this is the consecuence of trying to change what we thought was an old fashion way of education.Parents in their forties and fifties have mostly received a thight one,consequently they have tryed to use new methods (based on more liberty,more talking,being friends instead of parents)but this has also been a mistake,too much of all that spoils kids from the very beginning of their lives.
sorry, it is consequence!
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If I were in the case of Jane Eyre I would prefer to be educated by my poor relatives rather than being with the Reed family. Of course if she goes with her poor relatives she won’t have the opportunity of doing many things, such as going to school, dressing nice..etc but she could be happy, she could find people that respect her. If she stays with the Reed Family, do you think she can manage something in her life???? They don’t feel any kind of compassion for her; they even mistreat her in the psychological way. Mrs Reed really wants to take her out of the house and she will obtain it as you will see when you advance reading… I think that Mrs Reed considers Jane Eyre like an old piece of furniture that has to be thrown away.
I agree with you, Elena, but in a point. Jane has known the world of the Richs. Maybe she could not renounce to an education, dresses, or a good house. I think that when we know certain luxuries, and in that epoch, basic things as hygiene, dressing and food, were luxuries in the widest sense of the word, it is really difficult to renounce to them. Too much love she should receive in return. If she remains at her Aunt’s, she will create a shell to separate her from the rest of her “family” environment.
At chapter four we find, in a way, a new Jane, capable to face her aunt as when she threats her with a phrase reminding her that the way she treats her, has no correspondence with the wishes of her deceased husband. Jane is learning to analyze her rivals taking in account their weak points and making use of them, with coldness. Now, she is more insufferable for Mrs Reed than ever and, perhaps, she can get a change in her life, because whenever Mrs. Reed looked at her, she will be having remorse about her husband’s will.
Paloma I´ve seen your son on T.V. talking very nicely and naturally about Maths, he is quite something!! Tell him I saw him and that I was impressed. In Antena3 News
Thank you Marta, it’s very kind of you.
Elena and Maria Luisa: I‘d like to tell you something. One of the most frightening things for children are changes, if, in addition the change is to a condition thought to be the worst in the world, no wonder Jane doesn’t like. What’s better, some situation which is dreadful but we know how to deal with? Or another unknown and in which we aren’t sure of get what we are looking for?
There is another point: Jane’s refuges are reading and knowledge. At that time, did poor people read or have books? Did they know how to add or to write? And, what about music or languages?
Jane chooses school. This is also an unknown place, but, instead of the insecure refuge of a hypothetical love, it offers her the securest, in fact the only one, she knows, a real one in which she have already felt safe many times. Being in her place, what would we choose?
I already have the tickets for that day! Perfect! We´ll see whether Marisa Paredes is so good or not...
I wouldn't like to be in Jane's shoes!It's really complicated to handle such a situation, even more being a child!You're talking about luxuries and getting used to them, of course I agree with all of you at that point, when you have enjoyed the best you can not manage without "nothing".
Encarna, keep trying and posting, it will help your language tremendously.
Jane does not want poverty. Those of you who have said that once you know luxury second best is not good enough are absolutely right, how can Jane choose love and poverty? no clothes, no education, no books, as Paloma says..would you choose a teacher who said "well done" all the time or who scolds and you learn? NOBODY would, I mean nobody who values the importance of education. Jane does not have a hope without education and upbringing, not at that time. And I wonder if there is hope nowadays too?
I agree that there is a change in the little girl after this dramatic episode: she matures because she finally accepts that there is no hope for her in that household and she is a survivor, she will try a new situation. It is also very interesting how she gains certain power over Mrs. Reed when she discovers that her Aunt has not kept her prmise to her dying husband. Last year we saw the other side of the coin with Laura´s decision to marry Sir Percival though she loved someone else.
On education currently parents are absolutely disgraceful towards their children. They are breeding a pack of spoilt, immmature grown up babies bereft of all responsability. I exclude myself because I´m quite strict, when you meet my daughter you can tell me what you think, on which side you think I am!!
Paloma, there is a very good suitable quote of Wilde´s on children´s opinion of their parents. i´ll try to find it and post it.
Remember the money for the theatre
"Children begin by loving their parents; after a time they judge them; rarely, if ever, do they forgive them". (Oscar Wilde)
Paloma, should you have spoken English and read Wilde when you started bearing children, you wouldn´t have used up so much time trying to be a good mother because you would have known what the result was going to be !!!!I
I did not see your son..but I can imagine him!!
In:
http://www.atrapalo.com/espectaculos/evento-18897-sonata-de-otoao-con-marisa-paredes/fecha-23-10-2008
We can get tickets for €10 for the Anfiteatro
It is better to buy for the group?
Should we buy all together?
We talk about it tomorrow after class.
May I kindly ask which is the relation between the "Sonata de otoño" play and our English studies? I saw the twenty years ago. May it is inspired in an English masterpiece?
First of all Alessandro would you mind to remove the picture you have in this page? Every time we try to open it or post a comment we find a warning telling us the page has elements that are not secure, which is rather bothering. Thank you for your kindness and forgive my nerve, I’m not very good at informatics and warnings make me feel very worried.
Carmen you are right I hadn’t read that quote from Wilde. I was only overwhelmed by the responsibility from raising children, and very frightened because nobody had taught me how to do it. In addition it was very important to me to know how to correct children’s behaviour without hurting them. Do you know what I mean? Being strict or have rules at home is one thing but another very different one is not knowing how to react when they break them. I mean, I think it’s better to say “I'm angry because you haven't done what I have demanded of you” than “you are a disobedient”. I believe it’s very annoying for children to be listening all the time “you are...”
Bessie and Abbot and even Mrs. Reed want Jane’s manners to change but they try it in a really dreadful way, do they not? And so, they achieve the contrary they are looking for, and Jane asserted herself more and more in her personality.
Paloma: I already eliminated my picture. Please forgive me: I started blogging with an account I was already using to participate in other blogs. I hope the warnings that bothered you were only originated by my picture.
Encarna 5ºC
Hi everybody!!!!!!!
I want to tell you a little joke: I haven’t internet at home, so I have to copy all your comments in a word profile and then print, and then I can read them in the underground. Well, your comments are so good and I’m so concentrated in my reading that I passed twice my stop this week, hehehe…
Good, I want to say all of you that I was impressed with the description that Jane made of poverty and how it’s the child’s behaviour that prefer living without love but with all the facilities of her time. How selfish we are when we are children!, because I’m identify in some manner with her attitude in some moments when I was child. Moreover I have already read chapter four (I couldn’t stop) and I don’t want to discover you what happen in it, only I tell to you that I find wonderful and I encouraged you to read until the end.
Encarna 5ºC
I find it wonderful sorry!
Sorry Alessandro, I’ve bothered you for nothing, you have removed the picture but the warning is still appearing. I thought it was your picture because the warning began to appear when you first posted it, but it seems there is another insecure element and I don’t know what it is.
There is a thing in Charlotte Bronte’s stile I don’t like. When I read the reasoning Jane makes to herself they strike me as being little real in a girl of ten. For instance: in chapter four Jane is answering back her aunt and says: “Her usually cold composed gray eye became troubled with a look of fear” I don’t think a child of ten, even if she is really intelligent, can distinguish a “look of fear” in an adult. More or least in the same line is the final dialogue between Jane and her aunt. Always in my opinion, of course, a child of ten doesn’t speak like that. It isn’t what she sais but the way in which these things are said:”you think I have no feelings, and I can do without a bit of kind or kindness; but I cannot live so”.
For sure Carmen you don’t agree with me, do you?
Hi! What a big issue for me sitting in front of the PC so many time... But this year I don´t have any excuse. I´ll have to get used to it.
Well, I think that, not Knowing what to feel love means, Jane can´t value whether she preffers pooverty (maybe with love) or the privilege of belonging to a rich family. Probably she has never talk to a poor person and she can´t imagine that they have feelings as well. Anyway, I think that the decision of going to the school will carry new sufferings to Jane, because Mrs Reed wouldn´t let her go to a better place, where Jane could be happy, so easyly. She hates Jane.
Hi everyone!! It is going to be a very intensive year!!! My first meeting with the blog this year and I find 68 comments!!! Really amazing!!
I have read Jane Eyre twice; the first abridge, the second in Spanish (I enjoyed both), and I hope being able to like it the third, although just at that moment I do not want to read about the poverty, the miserable, the misfortune, the sadness, the lack of future hope… no one happy end can reward this suffering, though I appreciate Charlotte Bronte writing.
I agree with many of your comments, but today I am going to play the devil’s advocate: Can you imagine being Mrs. Reed? a widowed woman in the XIX century with three children under her charge and with the moral obligation of attending another girl, niece of her dead husband, only because he (not Mrs. Reed) promised take care of her. Nowadays very few people would maintain this promise!! Nowadays social affairs would have taken care of the orphan and not the distant ant. I do not think Mrs Reed is so cruel, she lives in an epoch and a country where adults are not as fond of children as we are in Spain in 2008.
At this point we have to add that Jane (Carmen says very well) is not a very charming girl. She is not kind, nor calm, nor beautiful, unsociable, even wild it is said (of course, I know everyone would be like her in her place) but it is a fact, she is distant, sometimes hostile (nobody has shown her how to love) and even for Bessie it is difficult to be kind with her.
Very brilliant María Luisa’s comment according with the new Jane’s abilities, during the confrontation with Mrs. Reed. She has been able to grow in 5 minutes much more than many people do in their whole life, and she will need this ability for the future. And finally, Paloma, I think the writer is Jane Eyre being an adult, she is describing the scene as she remembers now, she interprets her memories, that is why - I imagine- she speaks like that.
Did you Nila, or any child you know, at the age of ten, answer somebody back the words Jane says to her aunt? And these are supposed to be literal. I have a son of twelve and he is quite clever but he doesn't speak like that even now. If an adult is describing some facts in the past, he needs to remember them well, I mean, if Jane, being an adult, says her aunt had an eye of fear you must suppose she remember the look, other way she is inventing a history. And to remembering a look after so many years it is necessary you were highly impressed by it, and to being impressed you have to appreciate it. And, is a girl of ten able to appreciate an eye of fear? Absolutely not. So, whether Jane is speaking as a child or as an adult remembering something, this sentence is unreal, and the same the answering to her aunt.
It is true it is shown that some Jane´s sentences are thought as an adult. It´s difficult to remember a face (an eye of fear) but not a feeling. Jane suffered and she remembers what she felt, the rest can be the result of the imagination; but the feeling is real. However I agree with you as for the answering to her aunt. It used to happen that you imagine what you had or want to say that you didn´t say.
For Paloma: I took out my picture for two reasons: the first is that I ALLWAYS do what women ntell me to do (this was an advice from my mother and I will follow it the rest of my life) and the secon is that I cannot feel more guilty than I already feel: sometimes I feel that I will be responsible of the third world war...
Anyway I hope that you solve your computer's warning messages,I imagine that they are worse than the ones that come on cigarettes boxes...
In relation of the narrative style of Mrs.C.Bronte I desagree: I think she make so subtle a blend with the memories of a forty, or fifty, or sixty years old Jane, rational and "psicologically" correct thoughts, wit the spontaneous feelings of a ten years old Jane. You need to be a master to manage the skills to acieve such a successful "master blend"... but I do not want to extend in this topic becase I have to keep something for next week composition.
I write this also in answer to Mrs. maria 5ºb and paloma.
I agree with Nila 5ºc about what she starts analizing about Mrs Reed behaviour...this topic deserves to be deeppened (in the case this verb exists)...
I will attend Sonata de Otoño, I already bought my ticket by myself, but I still have no notice about the connections between this play and "Inglis" literature (this is the pronuntiation I have still not been able to correct, even with the enormous help of Mrs. Carmen). I also will attend November first to the othe play, which name I cannot remember. Please come!
Alessandro Maria is not a “Mrs.” She is a girl, in fact one of the most clever, charming, loving and beautiful I Know (and she is in your class!!).
There is no relation between the play and the English. We usually go to the theatre as an extra scholar activity. Carmen is very kind working for us all and buying the tickets. We normally go together and after the play sometimes we go to have a drink. We use this not only to enjoy the play, but also to meet us a little better. In addition there is another blog about theatre and we write there our opinion about the play.
Hello every body. It is a real pleasure come back to the EOI another year. I think for me it is impossible to read the blog every day but I'll try to do it very often. All the comments are good and the novel in my opinion it is a good an interesting one. In Jane Eyre we can realize that English people and culture are a little bit different as Spanish one. Thank's Carmen for your interest in the theatre, I know it is a hard work for you. In spanish I always say "don't you change never" (I don't know if the sentence is correct). Have a good week end. See you on monday. Regards to Marta. Kisses. Mercedes. 5ºC
Impressive! I am glad to see lot of people joining the blog. At length students realize how useful this marvellous tool is so that you may improve your writing skills.
Nila, I am afraid I do not agree with you. Mrs Reed being an adult, it is her duty to take care of poor Jane, for it is not Jane’s fault that Mr. Reed made her sister promise that she would bring up her niece after his death. Besides, I think Jane is charming and not a nasty child. The time she is forced to stay by herself in the nursery, I really felt sorry for her because she makes a huge effort to keep her spirits up despite her dreadful condition. Child as she is, she manages to deal with so painful a life, every single person within the house being against her.
Hi again Roberto! I enjoyed seeing you yesterday!
Of course I do not think Jane is a nasty girl! She is clever, very intelligent, (I love the marvelous dialog with Mr. Brocklehurts where Jane shows us how sharp and brilliant she can be) and she is very young, she is alone, and the most important, she is absolutely lost with the good and evil rules inside the house. But I can understand why Mrs. Reed does not love her (she is a new load, she is an intruder in her home, she could be a competitor for her daughters…) and she makes the slightest effort to carry out her compromise: a warm up house, clothes, food and basic education (do not forget Jane know how to read and is able to take every book she likes), but Jane, as every child and every human being, needs something more, she needs affection and neither Mrs. Reed, nor her children, nor her servants will provide her.
I have a problem with some of you. This year I am in 5º c, but as many of you know, last year I was in the morning session. As a result I know many of you by your names but not by your faces. It is terrible to find here Nila, Mercedes, Encarna, Jaime and Elena, all of them in 5ºc and do not know them. It is as if they were two people, one in my class and another different in the blog. Have somebody got any idea to remedy this situation and to know our mates from the B? It is high time we met, is it not?
Paloma, are you going to see "The monkey trial" on the 1st of november?. After the play some of us are going to have a drink and you can know all of us if you want... but I´m sure you have seen and talk to us many times, you were with us in the project of the Woman in White and in the dinner we made last june. ;-)
sorry I wanted to say "but I´m Sure you have seen and talked to us many times"....
Hello,I´m also going to the play of the 23rd,but I think you(Paloma)already know me.I´m sad to detect some tension between two of the bloggers,is it just a way to have fun or is it real?Relax!!(I have to admit it´s been funny reading their comments) I hope it won´t develope very much.
As for Jane and her adult like way of speaking.We should never forget
we are reading a nineteen century family story,that means that even children spoke in a much rethorical,pompous language.What is more,what Jane likes more is reading books.That could give us an explanation about the way she expresses her opinions.
When MR. Broklehurst asks about her age,10,and he thinks she´s old
I think it is because at that age girls are nearly finishing their education (the lucky of them to get a well marriage),So their manners,language and charm are similar to the adults´.
>16 de octubre de 2008 13:32
>Paloma dijo...
>I have a problem with some of you. >It is as if they were two people, >one in my class and another >different in the blog. Have >somebody got any idea to remedy >this situation and to know our >mates from the B?
I think there are two ways: First, go to the same (theatre) plays. Second: edit your blogger profile and add picture. But this last can cause some problems to people who has slow connection or an old computer.
Alessandro ¿do you think I would be able to edit my blogger profile and add a picture? Certainly not. If I feel terrified when a warning appears!! I’m not good at computers at all and if I ask my son to do it for me, as usual, I can be killed. Your first option is better for me. The Spanish custom of have a bier after the theatre can be, for me, the best solution, and, in addition it is much more funny (Mainly if Maria Comes).
By the way, were you in the A section the two first days? In that case perhaps I know you. There was a “boy” there that used to wear a peaked cap.
Of course Silvia I know you. Regarding Jane’s age, in chapter VI se is regarded as very young by Ms Temple. Mr. Broklehurst strikes me as being a fundamentalist and not very good person. Don'tyou agree?
Dear Paloma: Of course I think you could be able to edit your blog profile, it is just a matter of time and "know how". May be you are not instered in and I accept it. Please do not be afraid of computers, they dont bite, are just machines like us, sorry I want to say humane beings like you and me, sorry again... Anyway the second option is of course better: to drink something after the theatre will be fine (even if Mr.Broklehurst would not approve it). I am very glad to be able to see Marisa Paredes. I think she fully deserves the Medalla de Las Artes that she received a few days ago, like most of the other personalities that received it. I am very sorry that one of them should not receive it, and giving it to him extend a bloody shadow over the Spanish Culture Ministry.
No, I was not in the A section the two first days, and I am not really a "boy". Actually, I think I am the oldes guy in my class, and this is very pleasing for me.
Don’t worry Alessandro I’m not a girl either. In fact I’m “nearly” the oldest woman in my class as you will possible have guessed by my comments in the blog. Concerning computers I’ve always thought they are an invent ion made by men for their own pleasure. Very few women are interested in computer science. Nevertheless, we live in the XXI century and computers are the most important tool we have, so I’m bound to study computing when I finish my English studies. But, for the time being, a bier and some chat are (and I suspect always will be) the best way for me to meet people and make friends.
Paloma, I know that when you were bringing up your children you were worried and wanted to do your best.. but the truth is that whatever you do offspring will critisize and gru dge the behaviour of parents. Do not try any more, it´s all the same, now you now what you will get from them. It won´t take me by surprise!!
Jane Eyre is a fully-grown woman when she writes her story, this is why she describes so well her child feelings, however, I do think that an adult can fear the words of a child, and I do think that if a child is in Jane´s circumstnaces it can kind of pick it up.
I don't think very few women are interested in computers or computer science, if by "computers" you mean the Internet and the technology it involves. In my experience, tons of women are using the Internet to take the historic chance of expressing themselves finally. We can seldom use publishing houses, the press, TV, or the radio to express ourselves. The Net is crowded with independent thinkers and artists, and that includes women, tons of women. There are zillions of sites by women. Thanks to the Internet we've got a not "under control" space where to publish all our thoughts and work. Women, at the moment, are exploring all kinds of things on the Net. From women in Sahara to American Indian women to Galego women... Perhaps you don't know about this, but it exists. Generalizations are always risky, but more risky when it comes to generalizing on issues we are not familiar with, I believe. We should be more cautious about that because we could be just ignoring people who should not be ignored, and women have historically been ignored when it comes to existing intellectually and artistically (just have a look at the Greatest Painters in the World, or the Greatest Writers, and all that - it's over a 90% men, and that's not possible, because women have the same tool - the human brain).
Perhaps statistics say there are few women using the Net. We are not usually interviewed, though. The percentage could be lower than men's, but first, that's not "few" and second, there is no connection between sex and the chance to express yourself freely, supposing those statistics aim at what they aim. There is one between gender and Technology, but many of us are beyond that, because we have fought against gender roles. The Net (technology) is Communication Technology and that is full of people. People communicating and expressing themselves. And that's men and women. More women "in power" (using the power of the word, of using their intelligence seeking ways of expression) than in our physical world, actually, because our physical world is more rigid in terms of who can express him or herself and where, and the Net isn't - anyone can do it, any time, anywhere.
Only people who do not use the Net think the Net is "technology", and not full of people! :) Actually, you are all using this blog because there are people. If you are at home one night, and you've got a connection to the Net, and you use it, you can "listen" to people, you can read people, you can communicate with people. But you cannot do that at home one night, because everyone is asleep. You can only do it if you take a book or turn your TV on, but it's not the direct communication the Net offers you the chance to enjoy. Most people posting here are women. That's the Internet. Even if nobody SEES it. It's full of women. On our website it's a huge majority of women, too. We exist here. We're taking part.
I hope you don't get upset by me contradicting Paloma. Many people think that and I thought I should say something. We're here, but still, it seems, invisible, against all evidence. But we're here.
Anyway, sorry to interrupt. Big hug, Paloma and company. Have a nice weekend!
Paloma, I totally agree with you in that computers interest women but little, shoes are much more exiciting!!!
Alessandro, the Soanta has nothing to do with English, to my knowledge!!! We go to some plays that we hope are interesting and pick them at random, we do try, however to go to those written by English or American authors, bu t again this is not always possible. We try to gain something else, not just the basic knowledge of grammmar, we try to profit of the cultural activities that are available in Madrid and we go together, that´s all. tickets may be found for a cheaper price but not for 70 people on the same day!!! Tht´s how many we´ve got so far for the Monkey.
i do see Nil´s point, in fact I said something to that effect during one class: Jane is not an easy child, she is not likable, is she? she can be quite nasty and Mrs. Reed is no relative of hers, she is her uncle´s wife!! She sees Jane as a threat and as a nuisance!! If we are not nice people reject us but this now then and always. There is also what we call social skills, Jane had none,she offended, she could be nasty, and Mrs. Reed sees her as an enemy in the house, why should she be the one to forgive and applaud Jane all the time? the servants do not like her either,it is Bessie´s mother that ponts out Jnae´s dreary situation!!! bessie had not clicked!!!
Alessandro, good analysis of Miss Bronte´s insight and capcity of description and very clever to listen to Mummy´s advice concerning women... I wonder though if you really follow it....
Paloma, you r son does not answer back but then he does not need to, suffering and cruelty make you react, if treated like Jane he would.
Mr. Broclehurst is the type of priest that should have met with the Spanish Inquisition!!! and what about the stupid son with the psalms, that is amazing to find a boy who is such a sucker at so early an age..and then his Papa to speak of him as if he were a saint!!! Honestly this species does not exist in the catholic faith!!
Michelle!!!!!! Hello!!!!! So nice to know that you are always with us checking our comments and setting us back inthe straight and narrow!!! Of course you are right, what would we do without our bog?? Computers enable women (AND MEN) to communicate and express ourselves and it´s a wonderful tool,but I think Paloma was not thinking as seriously when she said that, she was thinking that women are interested in communicating, discssing thinking, solving problems, fighting for a place of our own, loving, etc. and computers, not as a means of doing all this but as a technical machine lots of people are a little wary of. Have you read my comment about shoes?? (A joke, by the way)
How are you doing in the new school?
hello everyone. I'm adrián, from 5ºc. and i hadn`t postet nothing before (although i tried to). i think jane eyre is a beautiful novel and i am enjoying myself reading it. i find it a little bit difficult because of the new words but i think i follw it well.see you
First of all, I was reading a book in English, the title of which I cannot say because Carmen would kill me for reading “Rubbish”, when I’ve seen written the word “beer”. In that moment I’ve realised I had been writing it badly in the blog. I have always had troubles with words, this time I’ve written the French one, and, twice! Please forgive me I can’t help it. I have no memory for how words are written.
Secondly a word for Michelle. I wasn’t meant what you have understood. I work with a computer and I’m in the net most of the time but, when I have a spare time I prefer watching a film, going for a walk or being with friends rather than play games with my computer and the same my two daughters, but my husband and sons are always eager to be with the computers. They speak about them when together, play games, buy mice and ram memories and hard disk and…Do you understand what I mean? We women had wider minds; we are interested in more things and in different ones. Michelle, in my opinion men aren’t more intelligent than women and women aren’t more intelligent than men. We are different. You know, men are from Mars and women from Venus.
An explanation for men: wider in the sense we are interested in a wide variety of “unimportant” things (as most of you use to think)
Paloma said:
An explanation for men: WIDER in the sense we are interested in a wide variety of “unimportant” things (as most of you use to think)
Oscar WIDE said
In all unimportant matters, style, not sincerity, is the essential.In all important matters, style, not sincerity, is the essential.
He also wrote:
Most women are so artificial that they have no sense of Art. Most men are so natural they have no sense of Beauty.
I think the rest of women and men are interesting enough to hang up around with them the rest of my life.
Paloma, thank you very much for your compliments!! You are absolutely wonderful!! This year is not going to be different, having a drink after every play we see, I am never in a rush to get home, that´s me!
I think education is something very personal, with some general "rules" or "objectives", but dependent of each one´s personality. Educating is like molding, and not everybody are cut from the same cloth. But first of all, parents must understand their children. That´s the worst mistake in Mrs. Reed. Not only is she unaware of her children´s behaviour, but she assume Jane is a wicked person for her ugliness, shyness... Mrs Reed wants to correct Jane´s faults which don´t exist at all. It not being education, is blindness. A failure as a mother.
Carmen:
Thank you, I already was explained by somebody else that we will go to the theatre just to see good plays, even if they had no direct relation with English culture.
By the way: yesterday night I was coming out from the veterinary and I found myself walking across a crowd that was coming out from "Sonata de otoño". Most of the people looked quite happy and satisfied. Some were complaining of the pronuntiation and voice projection of some of the actors and actresses that was not good enough to make public understand all the text. Anyway I think we are going to enjoy it very much.
a mistake: "everybody is cut...", sorry!
Hi Alessandro, could you use Theatre Blog to write those comments? There is a thread for each issue, so we must take advantage of it, don´t you think? I´ve also heard the same as you about an actress´ tone of voice... We´ll see.
I think, Paloma that I quite understood what you meant.
Going back to Jane Eyre isn´t it surprising that it is Bessie´s mother who tells Jane that she would not like one of her childrento be in that position? bessie changes her behaviour to Jane immediately! Two things:
1. Why is it that women listen to mothers when we normally disagree with most of the things they say??? ("All women become like their mothers, that is their tragedy...")
2. Then why do we end up "obeying" them?
Any explanations?
>María 5ºB dijo...
>Hi Alessandro, could you use >Theatre Blog to write those >comments?
You are right, I will do that inmediately
>There is a thread for each issue, >so we must take advantage of it, >don´t you think?
Yes I do.
>I´ve also heard the same as you >about an actress´ tone of voice...
The people was actually not complaining of "an" actress's tone of voice, but of "THE" actress's tone of voice...
>We´ll see.
And we will listen...if we can hear.
Poor Jane, going alone so far! Only a cruel, heartless person could have permitted such an abandonment!
As for the "two things":
Mothers could be heavy, simple in thoughts or disgustingly polite, correct and courteous ones, but they normally has a point in what they say or think. Though at first they seem to be wrong, in the end we agree that they are right. In my opinion their eternal wisdom is because they look at the situation from the distance, where everything is clearer. Don´t you agree with me?
Mistake: "they normally HAVE a point..."
Hi there!
For Paloma. I understood your point, dear Paloma, I was just saying that "computers" are more than machines, because we use them to communicate, as in this blog.
I criticized what you said because I considered your point inconsistent to the actual use you are giving them by using them! :P I mean, you talk of computers as machines, and if you use them to contemplate machines or play with machines, that's that. But computers have more uses. And that was my point: women have realized too. They can be tools to develop yourself, and communicate with people, and mostly that's what they are, in spite of people's technophobia. So the question is that there is more than one way of seeing things! I think your approach is a misconception. A computer is not a hammer, it's a tool humans are using mostly to share their worlds and communicate; especially all the women writers and artists and thinkers who have had no chances of expressing themselves in the public spaces of our REAL society.
For Carmen & company!, hahahah, I did laugh my head off with your joke about shoes! It was very funny! I could actually SEE you telling it. As vividly as I can remember when I tried to get a snapshot of you with the pencil holding your bun and out of the blue you were pulling the pencil out to let your hair lose! Hahahah It was so funny!
Oh my! I miss you, wimmin! I'm fine. I'm working a lot, designing the new website for my new school (they were interested, yes! that was good news; and you should see their xerox machine, it’s the best I’ve ever seen!), trying to get everybody involved (that's harder, technophobia, the fact that I'm new and they don't know me... all that), and working hard on analyzing the Decrees and all. I have to show you a few things, by the way! Then, my adorable groups, who seem to be happy with me after the initial shock, I think, and then trying to pretend I'm not a newbie, I'm SO TIRED of being new! Over 20 years being "new"! Can you believe it! It's like Sisyphus, right? Fortunately, I'm a survivor and I always make the most out of situations! :) So in the end, it all comes to "I've seen places", but still. I’m tired of being new. But I’m finding my place here. Life here is much quieter. The air is not full of dust and noise, and I can feel it in my skin, in my brain. Life is more easy-going and that’s great for me.
So, I'm doing fine, people are nice and I've got interesting things to do, but I miss you, and my adorable students at EOI Goya. 50 of them registered in an online course I'm exploring this year!!! Can you believe it! So at least I'm still in touch with them, too. But I miss your "clear eye" so much! :) And the laughs at our Marx Brothers’ Cabin! I'm so happy when I check out the blogs and see all this life here! It's the best reward for all our hard work last year, and in life, it means we worked for something. It means we achieved. And thanks to the Internet, it’ll remain there to inspire others.
You have to organize another contest this year, please! Organize the minisaga contest! If the world is not what it should be like, then let's just create our world.
I hope I won't be bothering you posting here every now and then. I'm sure you (Carmen, Marta and Cristina) can take my views, whether you share them or totally disagree with them, but I'm not sure about considering students people or students... What should I do? Being away puts me in a different position. I'm a bit lost now about that so anything you can say will be of help!
No, I don't get to read it all, no, no way. And then, I read things, but I have no time to take part, or I wonder if I should. You've all posted hundreds of messages in a week or a bit more!!! It's so amazing I cannot close my mouth! :D Awesome! (hahahahah, THE US American word par excellence!, hahahahah)
Well nightie night dear all, sweet dreams
Roberto we are missing you terribly this year. Why are you writing so little? Every day we enter the blog in search of you, but you never are here. We were used to your comments. Please, make an effort and write more often! Remember we are in different classes and only can meet here. Please, please, please…!!!
I’ve felt terrible in class this afternoon. Carmen has been reading some compositions and I was getting depressed every moment she read a new word. Depressed and green with envy. The more I was listening to, the worst I was feeling. I thought “I’ll never be able to write such things”
Congratulations to you all. I’ll keep trying to write like you, I hope when I am “grown-up” I get it. By the way, since I’ve realised I would never win any contest against you, I don’t think it would be a good idea to have one this year.
I have been thinking about Jane’s character. We have been told in class that perhaps none of us would like a girl like her. The thing is, it is Jane’s fault to be afraid? Absolutely not. There is not forgetting that Jane was taken in her aunt’s when a little baby. The only family and the only house she has known are those, so what she has received from them is what has marked her personality. By any standards it’s her aunt’s fault, not hers, she has a character neither open nor cheerful, or she is always frightened. Carmen you told me fanny Price was nicer than Jane but she went to her aunt’s when she was ten years old. Before that she lived with her parents and in spite of her poverty, she does receive love. This never happened with Jane, she never knew what true love was. Imagine what this mean, to get to ten years old without having received a pinch of love thought your childhood. How would we be in Jane’s place?
Paloma, I think everybody agree with you in your analysis of Jane’s psychology. Eighteen and nineteen Century English literature is full of similar of similar characters, the poor girl in one or another alone against the world starving for love etc. I have not read Mansfield Park so I cannot talk about Fanny Price. I read Fanny Hill that gets a lot of love but of a different kind (it is a very amusing and instructive book). But my enjoyment of a novel come more from how a story is narrated than from the story itself. Along world literature across the centuries the threads and characters are repeated at the infinite. What I am enjoying of Jane Eyre is how Charlotte Bronte writes; there is never one comma more or less than needed. In a page, even if she do not tell us the life of J.E. day by day, she makes me feel like if I knew her during all her life. And so on…
Michelle, you can come in and do it in whichever way you wish! First os all nice friends are always welcome, second it´s a pleasure to read what you write..not surprising, as you are a writer and thirdly this blog is your baby, Marta´s idea and your design, work, everything. Then, something for you to have clear because you appear to be getting enthusiastic about a new web...let´s put things back in place: Marta discovered you, gave you that piceless number 1 you so deserved, and you came to Goya, so I´m afraid "we have the prior claim"!!!!!!!!! you with us and ours... do not become involved and do not get inspired, anything simple will do for the new comers, it need not be much at all...
Paloma, Fanny price was horrified when she saw her house, her slatternly family, and her drunken father,after years of living with her cousins, love or no love she was repelled.
How would I feel if I had not been loved at all? No idea, but If Jane had had a different disposition she would have gained more than she did. Read Oliver Twist, or Dickens and you´ll understand what I mean. characters draws people towards you or drives them away!!
Yes, I agree with you in that Roberto is very quiet this year, in class too. I think he doesn´t have questions any more, he knows all the answers!!!
Michelle, how can you think that your posting could bother anybody????? It´s always a pleasure to read your comments, so interesting and written in perfect English, besides it´s you we have to thank for having this great tool to express our ideas and exchange opinions.
Carmen, why do we end up obeying our mothers?...I guess it´s because we´ve always looked up to them, they will always be our dearest.It´s true that we often disagree with them, but usually on unimportant things,and once they´ve left us we deeply regret having contradicted them.
What a compliment! I am really glad to read such a comment flattering me. I really thank you, whoever you are.
I must acknowledge not being participating on the blog as much as I wish and the reason why I don’t do it is because, at present, I don’t have enough time to read all your comments, a huge amount of them, and therefore I am not willing to post any comment till I have read yours. On the other hand, I am trying to read Pride and Prejudice so that I can enjoy that blog, too.
It is a curious thing the fact that, currently, I have more chances to practise my speaking and less to improve the other skills and there is no finding find the balance among them.
Anyway, I love these blogs, they being part of my life indeed, and I feel angry for not using them more often. So, I am looking forward to get some free time so as to keep enjoying them.
Roberto, everyone misses you on the blog, teachrs too, you´ve become quite well known among us together with María and Paloma.
Paloma what is this silly comment about their compositions? yours are very good as well and for sure you can express yourself in English amazingly well. I just wonder what the newis think about you lot...
The things that Jane is experimenting in her first years of life make me feel deeply sad.I can´t stop imagining my children´s faces on hers(obviing that they are very handsome,hahaha)Could a loving mother put a child in such a difficult path to be a well educated grown up?Psycologists make a very special remark on those first years of our children because they will be the basis of sane or insane adults.I think Mrs. Reed wasn´t conscious of where she was sending Jane to.She chooses the lowest expensive school existing,an Institution.Maybe that´s the only motive pushing her to select it!!
Paloma, for sure you write so good as you do here! Carmen will read aloud some composition of yours soon! Don´t despair! ;)
Anyway, in spite of Alessandro´s words at Theatre Blog and the fact that we are missing Roberto, there are more people writing here than last year, don´t you think? As for me, I am so hooked to these blogs that I think I´ll be here forever!
Ey, it is the Film Club that is at a standstill… So...
Roberto I’m jealous of people who are reading Pride and Prejudice (I don’t know in which year they are). As you know this has been so far my favourite book and I’m also taking part in their thread. BUT! Using a clause, a structure that in this case suits perfectly well: “It’s to this blog that you belong “(and no theirs) you are a fifth and we want you to be with us. If you have very little spare time and you have to sacrifice something “it’s the other thread that you must sacrifice”.
We don’t admit any excuse. This is our last year together; you cannot leave us for other people, even if you have a lot to show them. Your opinions are also important for us. Who am I going to call names by mistake if you aren’t here?
I have enjoyed reading Michelle´s comment and I’ve been moved. I didn’t know you had begun a new life Michelle. I wish you the very best and all your energy for the new beginning… good luck Michelle!!
Thank both Carmen and María for your compliments. But what gave me a complex last day was the way in which people said things, I meant, the compositions were so funny, full of wit and lively descriptions, and so dynamic that I felt I lack the inventiveness to write like that. I’m too serious; I haven’t sense of humor to make this kind of composotions! That’s why I felt jealous.
I absolutely agree with you Paloma, it is devastating listening to that kind of writing.One thinks is loosing time while the others are in class taking advantage.Good Lord!!! we´ll have to hurry up!
hahaha!that sounds like Mr.Broklehurst.
See you tomorrow.
Silvia, I think Ms Reed didn´t want to "educate" Jane, nor to correct "her faults", as she said. Were it so, she would have send Jane to the same school as her own children, or would have wasted more money -we supposing that the best school were the most expensive one-. In my opinion, Ms Reed only wanted Jane to be far from Gateshead. And it was better that Institution than the cold street.
Roberto, Paloma is right, you are a fifth year and you belong to this section!!!!! Come back immediately!!!!! you can post in the other provied you´ve left something here before.
María is right, in my opinion, Mrs. reed is bound to her promise but sending her to school is enough. By choosing a charitable institution she makes sure that Jane knows she is poor and by telling Mr. Brocklehurst that she prefers the little girl to remain at school during the holidays she gets rid of Jane and will not have to see her again. when humans do something wrong we do not want to remainded of it by the presence of the person we´ve wronged!!
Paloma work on your sense of humour..it´s there, you have it1
Yes, of couse the only thing that Mrs Reed tries is to get rid of Jane as soon as she can. If she wanted to give her a good education she would have sent Jane to the same school as her daughters. There is an important thing in chapter IV that confirms this. When Mrs Reed is talking to Mr Brokehurst about the school, she told him that during the holidays she must stay at the school and never come back to her house.
And what about Jane´s reaction? I think that she couldn’t stand the pressure and she exploded. When I was at school something similar happened to a girl of my class. I was 12 years old, and a girl of my class who was not very clever, one day exploded with the maths´teacher. This teacher used to be very severe with her, he was always shouting to her in front of the rest of the class…So when one day she has to do an exercise on the blackboard and she didn´t know how to do it, the teacher shouted her and told to go to her sit. She said that she wouldn’t do that, and began to shout to the teacher and throwed the book on the teacher’s table. All the people there were stunned. I think that Jane has the same reaction…
Dear class mates,
Read all your wise comments, it having taken me long time, ready I am at length to keep posting. I wish I could answer individually to every of you, however, it would be so difficult an issue that I think it better to give my point of view related to several issues which have interested me.
1.- Jane is always lacking of any support and child as she is, she needs love and people caring for her, nevertheless, nobody does it at Gateshead. Besides, she is doomed to be isolated once and again. What a dreadful condition! As I said before, Mrs Reed has no excuse at all so as not to treat her kindly even though Jane is “peculiar” or not social adapted. Don’t you think Mrs Reed as being cynic when she says to Jane that she desires to be her friend? And what about her cruelty by telling Mr. Brocklehurst that she wants Jane to remain in the school at holiday?
I think, I am puzzled when Bessie’s attitude towards Jane is concerned. Suddenly, she makes up her mind to understand Jane’s situation and I am not sure whether it is her remembrance of her mother that makes her behaviour change.
On the other hand, moved into a new life, Jane is involved in a situation which all of us have passed through sometime, it being the times you don’t know what to expect about your future. It seems as if you have no escape, doesn’t it?
The story of the child fond of Psalms is pathetic.
2.- It is always a pleasure to hear from you, Michelle, your thoughts give us a new perspective of life. In my case, I also prefer to by shoes than spending money on computers. When using the internet, I don’t think whether it is being used either by men or women. It doesn’t matter provided I read something interesting me. As for its usage, computers make me be unwilling to spend time finding out how they work. Life is short and there are plenty of things to do.
3.- Theatre outgoings are one more gift Carmen and Marta have given to us. We have every single means to improve both English knowledge and culture.
Elena, I agree with you. It is high time Jane faced her aunt.
There is a quite interesting issue coming to discuss. The relationship between Jane and her friend and how the former is amazed by discovering so opposite an attitude when you are suffering injustices.
Roberto, it’s a pleasure to have you again here. Not only a pleasure, I must say, but also really useful. Since you use a lot the grammar and vocabulary we learnt last year, your posts have become an excellent way to revise them. For instance: in the rephrasing we did a sentence: parked as it was outside the door, the car has disappeared (or something similar).I had forgotten this till I’ve read your post: “child as she is” I’ve remembered the structure. Do you see why you are needed here? Jokes apart, welcome home.
Paloma, I am delighted with your compliments. Until now I could not post at all.
As you know, every thing we have learnt is because of Carmen’s teaching. She is the Master and we are the apprentices.
The fifth chapter is an accurate description of the first day at Lowood. Jane hardly has contact with other students and probably that has happened to everybody. THe first day at school is one of the most dreadful and difficult days for any child and so is for Jane. During thevfirst day one analyzes the situation and the people. It usually takes a couple of days to start mixing with people.
As the novel starts at Mr. Reed’s, we know little about Jane’s previous life.
Yes, she lost her parents after a disease and when little child she was moved to live at her Aunt’s. But we have no details about her earliest years with her parents. Through a conversation between Bessie and Abbot we only can intuit that her home was a modest one and that there were serious problems with her mother’s family due to her mother's decision to marry a modest man, but nothing about the relation between Jane and her parents. As a little child perhaps she has no regards about that part of her childhood, or nothing interesting enough to write about, but this does not mean that Jane had no feelings at that stage. What I want to mean is that, in all likelihood, Jean was, as an only child, the centre of attention at her own home and she used to receive all type of care from her parents.
In the other hand, when she moves at her Aunt’s she changes to be the eye of the storm and the object of all the critics as the odd element. There had been a strong, sudden, unexpected, and hard change of role in her life. Anyway she was in permanent disadvantage: her cousins had captured all the love from Mr. Reed and she was only an intruder without rights but with all the obligations to be grateful with her “Benefactors”.
Maybe, at Lowood, feeling herself among equals, she can show us a different character.
I think she is at a disadvantage from the beginning, children being unable to struggle against such foes. However, she maintains her dignity even though circumstances make her be in low spirits.
In spite of the fact that there seems to be no much hope so as to achieve happiness at Lowood, a new world has been disclosed before Jane. Let’s see, how she manages to get on with her current condition.
Roberto, you flatter me...I am very proud of how much some of you have learnt, I helped you but you did it, without you nothing would be here, the blogs, the theatre,etc. who uses this wonderful tool? us and not all!!! where are the other fifths?? They have not yet found the track, let alone the right one... they are to be pitied, how much they are losing!!!
Jaime, it´s true that the first day at school is difficult and you spend days looking around you, but then there is a lot of novelty particularly for someone who wants to learn. this is an adventure and in Jane´s case a necessit because she needs to work to keep herself when she grows up. I remember being worried about how to earn money and keep myself, pay the bills, clothes,health service,etc. I was not as young as Jane is but I remember it started in England!! I wonder if the country gives off this, Spanish young don´t seem to worry about this currently, they are all getting drunk instead of a future!!
María Luisa, I think that Jane´s parents died when she was a baby, she cannot remember them and she does not know a different life to the one she has been leading at Gateshead.
Roberto, I´ve also noticed the great surprise that Helen´s attitude to life produces on the young rebel little Jane has become. Helen is more developed, more mature, there is something more spiritual in this girl, Jane is far from being spiritual, she is practical and logical, basic really, Helen is more refined ethically superior, and gives Jane a new perspective and perhaps changes her. We´ll see
I want you to think about HONOUR this week-end. could you find the opinion of Spanish writers about this? We need some quotes in preparation for our outing to the theatre on 27th nov.
Hi Roberto, I´m glad you are here again with your interesting comments (more than comments, compositions!).
It also caught my attention that Mrs Reed said to Jane that she desired to be her friend. Why does she say such a thing? What does she wants to get? As for Jane remaining at school in holidays, it shows us that, as I said, Mrs Reed only wanted to get of rid of Jane.
I think Bessie is not a clever person. She is a servant who may see injustice in Mrs Reed´s attitude towards Jane, but who doesn´t condemn -which is comfortable but immoral.
The Institution seems to be a cheerless place which makes me become distressed with only imagining it. However, it symbolizes a new life for Jane with some ray of light, Helen.
María Luisa, I also think that Jane´s parents died when she a was a baby. Her wretched life at Gateshead was real, and not the result of a comparison with a previous lovely life. Such a life did never exist for Jane.
I´m looking forward to knowing Helen accurately.
Honour? Calderón de la Barca is a genious dealing this subject. Six or seven years ago I read "El alcalde de Zalamea", where Honour is the main feeling. I´ll look for those quotes you want.
You are quite right Carmen; it seems that young people in Spain don’t worry about the future. Not all of them, of course, but the majority. I found it difficult many times to convince them to do things in order that they can be ready for their future. There is something more than present, but, they seem not be aware.
Meanwhile there is no forgetting that Helen is two year older than Jane, besides having lived in Lowhood for a long time.Jane is not tamed again but, she is certain to be. Helen is a survivor, perhaps not physically but mentally, and she teaches Jane her first lesson to be able to endure what she mows will be terrible for poor Jane.
I know many girls who, as Helen, are really intelligent, and, like her, they usually think they are full of faults. This kind of people ask too much of themselves and it is for that reason that they think they never do things properly. If you see anorexic girl, many of them are this kind of girl. There is another characteristic added to the character of people who is very intelligent: as Helen, they are really good people, kind, well-behave, obedient and always willing to follow the rules. Jane is more revel what I regard as an advantage. We’ll see.
Carmen and María. Yes, surely you are right. Reading again the beginning of the novel, we have the impression that Jane always lived with her aunt; perhaps my imagination plays against me, trying to give a little happiness to our dear Jane…
María, I think that when Mrs. Reed said to Jane that she wanted to be her friend it was because Jane’s words produced remorse in her, you know, all that we were talking about the promise to her husband… In addition, perhaps, something inwardly was telling her that some of her actions were wrong or excessive and, of course, she disliked that someone, in this case her nephew, was going to say to strangers unpleasant things about her and her children. Nobody liked that family matters came out to the public light and nobody liked hearing bad words about their behaviour. Here we can link with the question about “HONOUR” that Carmen makes us at her post. With Jane’s reproaches Mrs. Reed is worried about her Honour.
It is a concept very connected to Reputation ( Honra ) This was a very hackneyed matter at Spanish Literature in XVI and XVII centuries, and with a very sexist tone, because Men had Honour and Women had to guard her Reputation to maintain their men’s Honour. When a Woman lost her reputation ( a concept charged with sexual connotations ) her man, husband, brother or father, ought to fight to recover his honour as example we have two interesting titles with Calderón de La Barca: “El Médico de su honra” y “El Pintor de su deshonra”. Only reading the titles we can imagine the plot of these plays.
Carmen, I agree with you as far as Helen’s portrait is concerned. Many times in life, we find out new perspectives about things or situations we had already made up our mind, don’t we?
Paloma, you are also right describing Helen’s behaviour, though, I am not sure whether she acts in that way because of her intelligence. Indeed, I do not think her to has such clever mind. In my opinion, it is her mature attitude together her working hard that make her takes good advantage of that chance so that she might achieve a proper education.
Hello María and thank you. Don't you think that we keep on touch less than we did in summer? What a pity!
Good job! María Luisa. I need time to think about the issue, for I am currently puzzled with such a concept
Sorry Roberto, It’s in chapter VI that Jane tells us about Helen’s cleverness.
Maria Luisa you have done a very good analysis about Honour. I’m thinking it was a concept so deeply rooted in Spanish society because of our contact with Arabs. You can watch on television nowadays how women in Palestine, Bangladesh etc are killed or seriously injured or mutilated over honour matters. And, if I’m not wrong, I believe that this is an issue still very important in Gipsy society, isn’t it?
But honour isn’t only related with women behaviour but also with keeping the word given, the hospitality and, even, the way of treating servants or behaving in general. We Spanish are really complicated people in spite of our appearance.
In my opinion we are still concerned by honour today. I mean, don’t you have ever feel your honour had been attacked? Have you ever given your “word of honour”?
Nowadays youngsters only care about going out and having fun. Further in the future there will be time to worry about real life problems. Life is meant to be enjoyed, and the best moment to do it is during adolescence.
Dear Carmen and Cristina!
I just managed to read your messages to me, way up there! (I should be getting into bed this very minute!) You're doing such a job with these blogs! Congratulations to all!
I'm very moved by your words. Of course I'm yours! hahahahah... (pompitas de amor) I mean, as you can see, in spite of distance, here I am. I just fixed your web a bit, with the new info Cris sent me. Whenever you have a while, have a look! It's true I'm designing a new web for my new school, but it's not like all this we did -- there was a logo and there were some graphics I had to include (you can still see them if you check out EOI Getafe), so I've had to create the templates using the colors of the logo and fitting those graphics into the new structure. It's not my artistic design, I mean. I'm just a technician, so to say. I'm also creating some blogs at wordpress for the Department, but it's a Xmus pressie. One is a Travel Blog and the other is called Books & Movies. If you ever need another blog, just tell me. I'm learning more about wordpress now - actually, I'm designing those blogs so as to keep learning how to use the Wordpress Blogs, because they're a bit complex but they've got tons of tools. I'm also investigating the elearning platform with old and new students, and I'd be delighted to show you how it works once I learn! [I found out that UNESCO gave this elearning platform I'm using (the Dokeos version of the Claronline platform) a prize in 2007! You can read about it here, on the TP Forum: http://www.talkingpeople.net/tp/forum/viewthread.php?tid=358 .]
Night night, sleep tight, don't let the angels bite! :)
Very interesting coments all, I´ve liked the idea Paloma throws in about Heln´s type connecting it with anorexia.
Jaime, adolecense is a very short period of time in anyone´s life. Young people should be careful not to REMAIN in this stage for good!! It is also a time when a person is acquiring his/hers definite character and thus it´s vital to make good use of your education then. María and María Luisa, thanks for the future quotes and linking it with Jane eyre.
Got to get ready for a wedding see you tomorrow on line
Honour has been, is and should be considered like an essential attribute in human being, an expression of dignity which involves a right behavior based on justice, equity, ethic and moral.
In Seventeenth Century, Spanish society had three fundamental values: Christianity, service to the king and honour. It is shown in those verses of Pedro Crespo ("El Alcalde de Zalamea", Calderón de la Barca):
"Al Rey la hacienda y la vida
se ha de dar; pero el honor
es patrimonio del alma,
y el alma es sólo de Dios."
Besides Maria Luisa has said about honour in Jane Eyre, which is absolutely true, I want to add that honour is usually connected with revenge. If someone was outraged (it used to be a woman: Isabel in "El alcalde..." or Jane Eyre), the offense should be avenged. In Isabel´s case, it was her father that took the law into his own hands. In Jane´s case, it was she that wanted the true to be said, how wicked and unjust Mrs Reed was and how her honour had been raped:
"I will tell anybody who asks me questions, this exact tale. People think you a good woman, but you are bad, hard- hearted. You are deceitful!" (Jane Eyre, chapter IV).
Roberto, we are certainly keeping on touch less than in summer, as far as our meetings is concerned. But it is you who has disappeared! I´m doing the same as always!! The other day we met before the play to speak English with Mark (I told you!). Why didn´t you come? Or afterwards? Next thursday we have met again. Come back Roberto!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By the way, I found an audiobook of Jane Eyre here http://www.booksshouldbefree.com/book.jsp?id=97 and I would like to know the opinion of our teachers about it. It is a free download. The basic differences with the Penguin are:
1) The Penguin is abridged, the other is unabridged
2) The Penguin is read by a top class actress, the other is read by different volunteers.
From my subjective view, I think:
Since the Penguin one is wisely abridged, it has a more theatrical idea, and keeps a dramatic interest all the time. Since the other one is unabridged, you actually can follow all the book. The Penguin one is always superbly read, while the other has more or less interesting voices for each chapter, but the Penguin one is read in a way most of us are not likely to speak, while the other has more daily or domestic style
I´ve read all of your the comments these days although I did not write anything because I´m very busy.
I think Helen is a mature girl and intelligent as Palama wrote. But I don´t agree with you (Paloma) when you said that people who are intelligent are really good people, kind,... Nowadays we can find very intelligent people with bad heart. I mean, people who think ways for getting something although they have to hurt. They use their intelligence for hurting (But I think Helen is a good girl).
Jaime, I think you should think about your future. You are in reason when you said that you have to enjoy but It´s very important thinking about your life.
With regard to quotes, I find Miguel de Cervantes´s quote: "Todo el honor de las mujeres consiste en la buena opinión que de ellas se tiene" What do you think about it?
Chapter VI gives us a detailed portrait of Helen’s character, she being conscious of her condition in life and the chance offered so as to reach a proper education, and how she behaves quite differently to Jane. In spite of their perception flows throughout opposite ways, we might think both of them as correct. Helen always accepts her punishments as the means so that she might overcome her weaknesses and believes that we must forget those who make us suffer, that is to say, the usual catholic point of view. However, Jane being more practical, is sure about struggling against injustices, for otherwise wicked people will keep hitting. Do you think Jane’s attitude as a protestant belief? Which one do you think is the proper one, nowadays?
As for Honour, the perfect example the issue under discussion may be found in Pride and Prejudice, mainly in the confrontation Mr. Darcy and Captain Wickham maintain all the novel long. Wrongly accused by the Captain, Mr. Darcy is forced to act against such lies even though he has accepted Miss Bennet’s rejection the time he offered his love to her.
mistake:
...example OF the issue...
Laura what I say about the character in children who are really intelligent is something said by the psychologists. Of course we are human beings and among us there aren’t absolute rules, there will be always exceptions. But, most children with high capacities share two characteristics: they usually are very decent people and they have trouble with the motor function coordination.
Meanwhile, if the character of Helen is, as I’ve read somewhere, inspired in Charlotte’s sister, Mary had to be a saint. In Chapter VI Helen recites the teachings that Jesus Christ give us in Saint Matthew Gospel. More than that, she defines perfectly well the essence of the Christian faith: Catholic, Anglican, Orthodox or Protestant. And, doing this, she shows how intelligent she is: this is the only way of surviving in Lowood without getting mad for so many injustices. In fact, that’s what Jane does: everything, hat Helen says in this chapter. And she finally survives, not only physically but also mentally.
Hi folks! I don´t know what more I can say . You have already said all about Jane. I think she is just now in a moment of rebellion. When they shut Jane up in the red-room she couldn´t overcome her fear and her loneliness feelings and that was the straw that broke the camel´s back. She has exploded. Now she is conscious of having been unfairly treated and she feels the necesity of sharing this with Helen, because Jane needs somebody to understand her, and she also needs somebody to trust.
That "Anonimo" is mine. I´m Noemí 5ºB and I´m a disaster with computers. Be patient with me...
I agree with Paloma that it seems that the easiest way to survive is what Helen does. Life at Lowood is pretty hard just because of the scarce food, the inadequate clothes for that freezing cold weather and other factors. If you also become a foe of the teacher, life could become a total depression. Probably it is better not to have problems with teachers and the other students. During all her life Jane has been treated very meanly, so despite her strong character I think she will be able to adapt herself to this kind of life.
Hello everybody!! First of all, I beg you pardon for my interrupting on your comments about the novel. I'd like to recommend you a link with a video which I consider really interesting. I encourage you to see it because while you become aware of this consumer world where we live, you can also practise your listening! Here comes the link: http://www.storyofstuff.com/
Enjoy it!
I agree with you, Paloma: Helen’s attitude is the only way to survive at Lowood, and, sometimes, at our daily life too. However I find Helen’s character excessively submissive and docile and that’s for I have a similar opinion as Roberto in thinking that the more practical way to fight against injustice is revolting against it, in spite of being the most risky way and probably the most hard to Jean at an unfriendly, hostile, hard place as Lowood is, but in all likelihood Helen will be a master for Jean.
Carmen: Sorry I don’t have time enough during this weekend to look for quotes about Honour, but I am in the matter.
The shortest and surest way to live with honor in the world is to be in reality what we would appear to be.
- Socrates
But why should honor outlive honesty?
Let it all go.
- William Shakespeare (1564–1616), British dramatist, poet. Othello, in Othello, act 5, sc. 2, l. 245-6. Having lost his integrity (”honesty”) he no longer sees a need to maintain his reputation (as a warrior).
As to honour—you know—it’s a very fine mediaeval inheritance which women never got hold of. It wasn’t theirs.
Joseph Conrad (1857–1924), Polish-born British novelist. Marlow, in Chance, ch. 2 (1914).
An honorable murderer, if you will,
For naught I did in hate, but all in honor.
William Shakespeare (1564–1616), British dramatist, poet. Othello, in Othello, act 5, sc. 2, l. 294-5. “In honor” means from a sense of integrity, supposing it to be the right thing to do.
By Jove, I am not covetous for gold,
...
But if it be a sin to covet honor
I am the most offending soul alive.
William Shakespeare (1564–1616), British dramatist, poet. King Henry, in Henry V, act 4, sc. 3, l. 24, 28-9. Before the battle of Agincourt.
Great men’s honor ought always to be measured by the methods they made use of in attaining it.
François, Duc De La Rochefoucauld (1613–1680), French writer, moralist. repr. F.A. Stokes Co., New York (c. 1930). Moral Maxims and Reflections, no. 158 (1665-1678), trans. London (1706).
I must acknowledge having enjoyed today class for it has made me think about my point of view when studying both this novel and Pride and Prejudice is concerned, the perspective of which I thought it to be the proper one, however, I have found out quite new interesting thoughts about Jane’ and Miss Bennet’s character.
By the way, Jane describing how cold was the weather the first day in Lowood, I have recalled “The Eve of St. Agnes” which we studied last year. you could really feel the cold, don’t you?
mistakes:
Today'S class
How cold the weather was
Roberto the more I read you the more you astonish me.
Well there are so many things I´ll have to take notes or else I forget what I wanted to say!!
Thanks for the wonderful quotes. Tomorrow we´ll have the new section Honour and we can post more. I love Shakespeare´s. Good conection with the Eve, as well.
Paloma, whatever Psyks say there are a lot of intelligent ROTTEN people out and about, although I have to admit that fools are generally worse, the intelligent are less frightened, because they are more confident, don´t know we have to think more about this.
both Helen and Jane are protestants, I´m not sure that catholics are more "suave", but I´m sure that protestants are more rigid and strick towards others, it´s the sinning issue I´ve mentioned several times. I think Helen is more mature, less in this world, nearer Heaven; more air than earth if we want to place her in an elment, she is freer from the links that girdle us to life.
Gosh! I have to fly. thanks for the links and Alessandro I´ll try to listen to what you say but quite honestly I do not think I´ll go for anything domenstic,...!
Laura, you are probably right, and thinking about present only is a little irresponsible, but it is so comfortable!
Nowadays adolescents usually don´t have serious problems, they live with their parents, isolated inside a bubble. Perhaps this kind of atittude brings negative consequences
I think adolescents have all the problems!
Helen Burns is an adult, at least, thinks as an adult, not only in a very wise point of view, but also in a submissive one. In addition, she has the Bible very well learnt, as well as Mr. Broklehurst´s son, maybe.
While I was reading the chapter VII my mood was going from surprise to indignation, anger, outrage and finally rage. All the insults I know in Spanish addressed to a man who is a bad person and whose Mother is everything but a saint crossed through my mind. I called Mr. Brocklehurst every mane I knew, even Fosco! not, I correct myself, Fosco is by far better than him, this being is only a “Sir Percival” selfish, opportunistic and, what is worse, with very different criteria of morality depending on the people. He has two different yardsticks, one for his pupils and other for his daughters. At first I thought he was a fundamentalist, as many evangelical are, but now I see he’s only a hypocrite and I’m afraid he’s not any benefactor but someone who is making money at the expense of Lowhood.
I ‘m, obviously, exaggerating, but don’t you thing Mr. Brocklehurst is able to arise that kind of feelings? Why so many people, especially the most twisted, have made use of religion to harm people through the History? Sometimes it seems as if people who are not psychopath but very inhumane or even sadistic take advantage of the religion to satisfy their cruel instincts, does it not? Why so many people confuse Christianity with sadism?
There are so many quotes that I will start from the end. I love those quotes, Susan´s is wonderful because it gives such a clear explanation!! María yours are very good too, particularly the second which has to be read carefully!
Mr. Darcy speaks from his high level and position and of course this is a very safe place particularly because there´s no one to dispute him his throne. I wonder if his tone would be as confident if he were before a Duke!! I agree with Marta that he has sense but he is quite blinded by his pride, and when you are blind you cannot see thus you make mistakes as he does.
I´m going to throw in aa good word for Miss Bingley, she uses the weapons she has or the ones she has been taught. Elizebeth is quite rude and vulgar, isn´t she? What about her connections? Would anyone like to ahve such a fool of a mother as Mrs. Bennet, as your mother in law? would anyone with real breeding and nobility be as impertinent as Elizabeth? When she is in Netherfield Lizzy is always coming up with her little "clever" comment about any issue,I can almost see her thinking "aren´t I clever?" used to Papa´s complimenting giggle, but when she is forced to be in company with more refined people they are shocked!!They see her as she is very much "middle-class", good for a little village and country life. Can you see her in a London drawing room? Not at this stage...
Carmen, you have just written at the wrong thread...
Paloma, it´s Lowood and not Lowhood! ;)
I think all of us share the same point of view about Mr Brocklehurst´s behaviour towards Jane. How anyone could believe that a little girl like Jane could be so bad only by listening to Miss Reed´s words in such a blindly way! Fosco wasn´t so bad, he at least had manners.
The trouble is not religion but the interpretation given to it.
Roberto, I also felt the cold, which is a very good comparison between the weather and Jane´s lonely state of mind.
Mr. Broklehurst being quite cynical, I was amazed on reading the reasons he gives so as to blame Miss Temple for having feed their pupils properly. Do you think Mr Broklehurst’s hint to be the best way to bring up a child? I don’t. I agree with being strict though sometimes everyone needs a reward to keep going
I agree that parents must be strict with children. Kids need rules, as adult have in the real world. Otherwise not only will they have a quite unbearable character but also when they grow they won’t fit in the real world. The life style that Lowood’s children are having is similar to nuns’ life. They live with the minimum resources necessary to survive. They think that living in that way they are saving their own souls. I don’t know if God wants people to suffer. It is true that nowadays we have too many things, most of them are unnecessary caprices but experiencing misery is not the way to reach Heaven.
El honor sigue a la virtud como la sombre al cuerpo.
Fray Luís de León
Aseméjase el honor a la pintura al pastel, que no puede sufrir el menor roce sin deteriorarse.
Ramón y Cajal
Te juegas la vida por la honra. . . Juégate la honra por el alma.
ESCRIVÁ de BALAGUER, Beato José María
Hi! it is Elena g. it is my first commentary, here in the blog, I was afraid to write because I am not used to compose, I find it very difficult to express my feelings or even to think in English , but I’m going to try it hardly . Jane is a poor victim for her age, she is clever and is a spirited and energetic girl, but her circumstances do not allow her to change them.
Welcome Elena!!
Hi Elena! It’s wonderful to see you! I know you will do it very well, Be confident!!
What do you think: will Jane struggle against the circumstances, or, contrariwise, adapt to them?
Hi Elena! It’s wonderful to see you! I know you will do it very well, Be confident!!
What do you think: will Jane struggle against the circumstances, or, contrariwise, adapt to them?
When growing up, most of us change almost completely. I dare say Jane will turn different because of her education in Lowood and I think it is Helen that makes Jane’s character begin to develop in a new way.
Hi, Elena, keep going, the more you practise the better you will get. Everyone can write but we have to practise, even writers write to get better.
Thanks, María, how could I be so silly to post in the wrong section? I´ll paste it in the right one.
Jaime, you are thinking forever about having fun!!! I think you are avoiding something and that something comes sonner or later. Sooner, let me tell you is better!!! "expiriencing misery is not the way to reach Heaven" you´ve said, but think would experiencing pleasure be the way to reach Heaven? I think that it is through suffering that humans become wiser and better so it follows that they would be nearer Heaven; nuns definitely have a very unappealing life but they are nearer to God than most people, we are dominated by our passions and in our currrent world by the idea of pleasure...yet most people are not happy, they take pills and need to visit psychiatrists, is this pleasure, happiness?
Mr. Brocklehurst is HORRIBLE because he has the most corrupted idea and way of living that one can have and it is this:one rule for me and others for the rest, particularly those who are dependent!! Having said this how many of us would be or have been, even if it is just once, Mr. Brocklehurst? I agreee with Paloma that what makes it so ugly is the fact that he does it in the name of God, and that he thinks he has a special relationship with God..! PRIDE the thing we should fear most in us. By the way Mr. Brocklehurst is C of E, do not be
misled by evangelical because, personally I do not know exactly what that is.
could you post the "honour quotes in the Anthony section? now we have it!
Carmen I thought Mr. Brocklehurst was an Evangelical priest because in pg 66 he says “Here in an evangelical, charitable establishment”.
I’ve been looking up a god explanation about Evangelicalism and I’ve found something that shows I was wrong:
“ Historically, and in many parts of the world other than the United States and Canada, the term refers to the distinction between the Roman Catholic Church and movements following the tradition of the Protestant Reformation (referred to by Martin Luther as the evangelische Kirche or evangelical church)”
In any case this priest seems to me more similar to a Methodist or a Presbyterian (old Puritan Calvinists) than somebody belonging to any other confession because of his way of speaking about God and the why in which he wants the girls to behave. I always though C of E to be more indulgent and open, more, even, than the Catholic one. At least this is so nowadays.
If you go to internet and look up “puritanismo” you’ll see the picture of a woman dressed much the same as the girls in Lowood.
Dear Paloma, it is always very interesting to read your research, well done. However, I dare say there is no new information concerning what sort of religious institution is Lowood in your second post, is there?
Reading chapter VIII, I could identify with Jane when saying “No; I know I should think well of myself; but that is not enough: if others don’t love me I would rather die than live—I cannot bear to be solitary and hated, Helen.” I completely agree with this statement for I am scarcely able to find any satisfaction if people I am fond of do not care for me even though I am acting rightly. This is the reason why I believe you sometimes need to behave as everyone else wants you to do so that you might feel accepted or loved.
On the other hand, pointed as a liar, Jane’s future at Lowood seems to be threatened. Nevertheless, it is both Helen and Miss Temple’s support that will make poor Jane do not be overcome by such wretched a prospect. It is vital to have helpful companions like these throughout our lifetime so as to keep going, isn’t it?
Mistake: what sort of religious institution Lowood IS
Mistake: I could identify MYSELF with
I totaly agree with you Roberto. It is impossible to be happy without being loved or accepted by the others. It´s a pity but also true. It shows how much Jane needs to be loved.
Paloma thanks for the enligthening information. Watching the play, I found some conections between Mr. Bryan (Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense in the Monkey Trial) and Mr. Broklehurst. Both are fundamentalist men, blinded by their faith, though it showed to be contradicted by many scientific evidences. You can have faith, but can´t be a fool: "Mr. Bryan, do you think the earth was created in six days?"
Hello everyone,
It's been a long time since I last wrote here, but I'm trying to keep updated. I continue to read Jane Eyre and I'm really enjoying it. I love Jane's character! Roberto, I liked very much your comment regarding our need of feeling valued by others... It's awfully true. If we don't feel so, it is as if we were lost in the middle of the forest with no light telling us we're taking the right path.
By the way, I think that of Saturday was a good play though a bit ... hard for a Saturday night!
See you later,
Elena.
I agree with you. Jane, as anybody, needs to feel that people who she loves also love her. However, Helen teach her an important lesson, that she must go on doing her best because the rest of the girls in Lowood share the same feeling to Mr Broklehurst, and they are intelligent enought not to believe what he said about Jane. It is very important the fact that Jane could understand that she is not the only one who feels "injustice in the world".
Hello everybody!
I read your comments and I want to tell you some ideas about chapter VII. In spite of disgusting the Mr. Brocklehurst’s behaviour the most, with this double moral which he has. I agree with María about that the problem isn´t a religion but the interpretation and the use given by people in their favour and for achieving their illicit aims. I agree with Roberto too, your definition of Mr. Brocklehurst as a cynical is perfect simply, and I hated him when he identified charitable institution with not sufficient food, clothes for supporting the hard and gelid winter in Lodwood.
On the other hand I found the Jane’s situation dreadful, when she was verbally mistreated and punished in the middle of the room, like a criminal in a trial, because all her efforts for integrating with the girls in Lowood, she thought, had been useless. But I think so, she is wrong: first Helen smiled her when she passed near Jane and moreover, I am sure that more girls have suffered and watched already such horrible accusations many times before, and so all of them comprehended Jane’s feelings in those moments further they don´t know Jane scarcely. I hope be right when I will read the next chapter, don’t you?
Please be careful with your “nicknames”, There are two different people called “Elena G” in 5º C. Your writing the surname is necessary for us to be able to recognise who you are. Please, do it.
By the way, we only have Elena Gallego’s particulars and, if necessary, we cannot notify anything to the other Elena. Rachel and I are the Delegates; you can give your e –mail and telephone number to any of us if you want to.
Most interesting comments, you are writing better and better. However we want more people in the debate, come on newies do not be afraid-shy, post! These were reluctant last year as well and see where they are in just a year!!!
Paloma thanks for your helpful information but I´m afraid you´ve enlightened us a little too much, a little too soon!!! you´ve uncociously let out information relevant to the story!!!!We were very good last year and did not do it!!!! I may erase your post, in fact I will.
I think that Jane is horrrified to be exposed, have you ever felt the drama of being FOUND OUT particularly when it is unjust? I agree with whoever said that most probably the other girls disliked Mr. Brocklehurst as well... but she was young, inexpirienced and her self esteem was low, anyone better than me, forgetting than these girls were nearer to her than to Mr. Brocklehurst and company! Roberto i´ve liked your last post, interesting "you grow more interesting hourly". from a linguistical point of view, of course...
Wow!! Is incredible how many people write this year in the blog!! I hadn’t written for two weeks and when yesterday I got into the blog to see all your comments and I had to print all of them in a paper to read them in the tube when I was getting back home I realized that there were 65 pages, that is very good!!! We should continue in that way!!! The news, come on, don´t be shy!!!
About Jane Eyre I want to say that see has discovered what respect is. At school she has found a very good friend Helen. They are very different but they complement very well each other. Never before, Jane has been supported by anyone, and that makes her really happy. When Mr Brokehurst ridicules Jane in front of all the pupils of the school, Jane feels very angry and impotent, she needs the respect of all her school mates and that man has ruined it without any reason, because Mr Brokehurst really don´t know Jane, he only Knows her from Mrs Reed words. After that situation when Jane realizes that someone supported her, she is really happy, we can say that it is the first time in her life she feels really happy!!.
Elena, I completely agree with you when saying Helen and Jane complement each other perfectly well. If any of them is lacking a particular quality the other has it. Quite an interesting issue to discuss, isn't it?
Dear Paloma, you are right about names being confusing. In fact, I meant to write 5B and not 5C. Please don't take offence, but it feels as if you were the superintendent of the blog, hehehe :)
Coming back to Jane and Helen Burns, I agree with Elena Martinez, they complement each other rather well.
Actually, the scene involving Miss Temple and them peacefully having tea was for me, the most comforting of the book, so far. Indeed, I think it was high time Jane lived a moment like this. By the way, I think Helen Burn's character is extremely 'lovable'. I mean, when I read about her, I feel like giving her a hug!
Elena, what happens is that I’m the delegate of my class. I know there are two Elenas but one of them has not written her direction or telephone number in the sheet of paper Carmen gave us in class and the only way I have to contact her is using the blog. When I first read your post I thought you to be Elena Gallego but then I realised you were not, and made a second mistake thinking you were the other Elena in my class. I was with Elena Gallego when she wrote her first post and she was determined to sign as Elena g. That’s why when I saw your post signed like that I thought you were her. I thought let you now just in case other people made the same mistake. I meant, when you write you want to be recognised, don’t you? Imagine the other Elena g making a great mistake, do you want every people to think it’s yours, I think not, and that’s why I wrote. I was trying to do you both a favour.I neither mean to boder anyone nor consider myself any superintendent.
Mates, don´t read Chapter IX´s notes at the end of the book. There are spoilers!
I have to speak about that chapter tomorow and I haven't find any note
Do we have a different edition?
I have the one which was published in Penguin Classics 2006, 580 pages.
Paloma, there's no big deal about it (is it the right expression or does it sound too American?). Let's campaign for clearty in the blog!
Anyway, coming back to what's the best way to rear a child, I read somewhere that things we say to them work as a some kind of prophecy. I mean that if you keep treating him/her as if he were the laziest and silliest child in the world, he will finally act that way, even if he is bright.
In adult life too, most bosses treat every employee harshly, though not everyone gets motivated this way.
What do you think about it?
I totally agree with you about the relationship between Jane and Helen. They both complement each other perfectly well. On the one hand Jane Eyre is learning how to behave in a civilized world. She learns to be more calm, less impulsive and vehement, and to accept that punishments sometimes are justified and you can gain knowledge of them.
On the other hand Helen receives all the affection which Jane has been keeping during all her short but depressing life, and which she hadn’t been able to give to anyone. In fact, this affection is totally corresponded by Helen, who takes care of her as if she were her little sister. Jane receives more love these days than she had ever received, we can appreciate this fact reading Chapter IX.
The relationship between these two young ladies, is the most adorable relation I have ever read, and I think both (probably Jane to a greater extent) will take advantage of it, becoming happier.
Elena,
I share your opinion, every time I was reprimended (in a nasty way) for not behaving in the right way I felt the most horrible person in the world, sometimes did I feel such as Helen in the novel, no matter what you do to mend it that you'll fail again and again. On the contrary If you are treated in a kind and tender way you do your best to improve and not to fail. We need other's approval to sucess in life.
I think the blog is not the place for expressing our personal opinion about other classmate . To be kind is easy and free.
Well, Susana, what I meant is what I said, no more... and I think I said it kindly. If not, my apologies to Paloma. Anyway, let's move forward!
A most entertaining reading with the tiffs and the telling offs!!!
Elena has felt Paloma´s reprimand, we know that you mean well and want to help, but Paloma, Elena doesn´t know your ways, remember you were not in the same class last year!!!
Jane and Helen: well it is nice to find someone who supports you for the first time in our life, which is what happened to Jane. She is immediately drawn to her. Helen, on the oother hand finds a person who admires her and possibly this is also a surprise, remember that she is continually scolded and to be thought of as perfect, is, again a happy change. Chpter 9 is very moving, it´s so well described, so quiet, and in my opinion quiet things sre always more effective. hysterical laughter or tears distort reality, you end up thinking it´s false. Helen´s death is Jane´s rite of passage, she matures. What do you say to this?
I also say goodbye until Monday, I´m going to England for the week-end, to take my daughter to my school where she could study next year..it´ll be nice to see dear old England again, particularly at this time of the year when the trees are yellowing and Autumn is in bloom. Do you remember that we read Keats´ ode "To Autumn"? there is great beauty is decay as well as in Spring, in fact, more so according to the poet, read it again.
I have to speak on Monday about chapter IX in my class; I’ve been working in this chapter for a long time and studying it in depth in order to show all the changes and the information contained in it, which is a lot. On Monday evening, after the class, I’ll tell you my conclusions, I don’t want to do it now so as not to bore people who have to listen to me. In my opinion IX is hitherto the most important chapter read . It remembers me a lot The Lord of the Rings, do you know why?
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