Fifths, welcome to this new course (2012/2013) during which we hope, we know, you will greatly improve your English and acquaire great skill in Reading Comprehension and Writing by using our blog, where we will discuss this great novel, this masterpiece.
26 de septiembre de 2012
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Wilkie Collins
261 comentarios:
«El más antiguo ‹Más antiguo 201 – 261 de 261Lancelot, my opinion is very clear, be different if you like, but.... PROPERLY DRESSED!
María I am not quite sure what you mean, but I certainly disagree with you when you say that it is when you are young that you have to do what you like. No the consequences of that can be devastating for the rest of your live. you can only do that when you are wise..
Laura,he who doesn´t abide by the "law" weeps...The problem is that these people normally dress differntly to try to hide their deficient security, it normally shows some sort of complex, therefore it is not that convenient, is it?
Now, folks we have to click in "más reciente" to write in the correct place and read the posts.
No, I don´t agree Carmen...
Once I heard a politician saying "When everybody within a group (or society) thinks in the same way it is either because nobody thinks anything at all or because only one person is thinking and the rest of the people are following him/her - and both are a mistake. I support the essence of this idea and I believe that we can apply to many aspects of life.
In the last chapter Pip confesses to Herbert his love for Estella but Herbert is not surprised by this news. He tries to be honest with Pip and speaking in a light tone tells him that getting her is not going to be easy - not because Estella is thousands of miles away from him but due to the fact that it is neither in his guardian nor in Miss Havisham´s plan for them to get married. Consequently Herbert believes that Pip ought to detach himself from her. So honest and down-to-earth is Herbert!
I agree with you Carmen in that Joe helds his dignity as a blacksmith with no other aspiration that doing his best in the field he knows best. It's not a question of resigning oneshelf but to accept one's limitations and faults. Pip behaves as a completely snob new-rich in front of Joe, both are aliens for each other. What a human feeling is being ashamed by others! Don't you think?
As far as the chapter we did yesterday concern, I want to point out how a good heart Herbert has. He is also a clever, frank, observant person, even if Pip's love for Stella is evident, in telling him how he is. Herbert seems to have not found his own star, his place in the City, so far but his efforts for looking about himself contrast with an idle Pip who has nothing to do but waiting for his expections which provokes him anxiety.
I agree with you Carmen in that Joe helds his dignity as a blacksmith with no other aspiration that doing his best in the field he knows best. It's not a question of resigning oneshelf but to accept one's limitations and faults. Pip behaves as a completely snob new-rich in front of Joe, both are aliens for each other. What a human feeling is being ashamed by others! Don't you think?
As far as the chapter we did yesterday concern, I want to point out how a good heart Herbert has. He is also a clever, frank, observant person, even if Pip's love for Stella is evident, in telling him how he is. Herbert seems to have not found his own star, his place in the City, so far but his efforts for looking about himself contrast with an idle Pip who has nothing to do but waiting for his expections which provokes him anxiety.
Yes, I agree with you too. Even Herbert and Pip have become close friends they are totally different. While Pip is waiting for someone or something that changes completely his life, Herbert prefers to search himself his future.
Consequently Pip´s future is more uncertain than Herbert´s because Pip doesn´t try to take the control of his own life.
First of all i want to point out that it´s easier to add the page in your favorites when you are in the last written comments(after cliking "mas reciente") thefore you will enter directly in the last posts ;-)
Carmen, dear fellow, you said you don´t think like that but i am seriously considering on the contrary, hehe, reading your comments, do you really believe that people who dress different have a problem related with their character? of course when you go to a meeting you have to consider going properly dressed for the occasion, in order not to attrack the attention in a bad way or when you have to give an image as a member of a staff, but in your spare time you have to go dressed in the way you feel more comfortable with your image not taking into account people´s opinion, therefore i agree with Laura on that point.
Referring to the last chapter where pip confess Herbert his love for Estella, I want to say that human beings love to swim against the tide, as you do in your comments, ;-), about the incovinience of being attached to Estella knowing that she has no feelings whether to him or anything,your heart(or your fancies) has to be sacrified for a consequent and expected senseless suffering(wow, how many words, hehe)And i am talking from my own experience.
In this last chapter, the fear and respect inspired by Mr Jagger is evident again. Prisoners and turnkeys ask his subordinate (Mr Wemmick) questions that they don´t dare ask the lawyer. Pip is impressed again by his guardian´s subtlety.
I believe that Mr. Weemick is not a good man because he konws, that the man who is in prison, has been convicted and in spite of it, he does not tell him anything about, but takes adventage of the situation asking him for a pair of pingeon, knowing that he will get what he asked.
On Monday we have the Hall (salón de actos) at 7pm to watch the film
ANONYMOUS
in English. It is about Shakespeare, and really nice.
5C, we will start the lesson at 5.15pm and stop it at 7pm
Reading the last chapter I feel sorry for Pip. He is in love with Estella even when he knows that he would never be happy with her but always a miserable. When they are together, he feels such as mere puppet controlled by her.
I would like to point out when Pip says “I should have felt that she held my heart in her hand because she wilfully chose to do it, and not because it would wrung any tenderness in her, to crush it and throw it away”.
Poor Pip, He feels as in a spider web where being trapped he can´t escape.
Laura, you are mixing ideas with dress. The dress involves a code, so you should not try to show that you are special by turning up to a wedding in jeans...he who does this shows that he is an attention-seeker, twist it round, if you wis, but...no.
I believe that when Pip is with Estella he doesn´t know which way to turn, but I have seen that at least once Pip took the opportunity to say something to her when they were together at the coach station and Estella asks him how do you thrive with Mr. Pocket and he answered ..As pleasantly as I could anywhere, away from you.He dares to tell her how he feels when she is not around.
Marta, good point that Pip is idle, and idleness brings forth trouble. Pip is like so many young men, "hijos de papá" with expectations, same reaction, same way of life.
Laura, well-written, much better than your last essay.
Heerbert sees Pip´s marriage in a much clearer way than Pip himself, which only proves that to be able to analize well one should be detached.
I also agree with you in that Pip life carries in itself a great deal of uncertainty, Herbert´s is in a way more secure, he has to work and find himslef a living.
But Lancelot you agree with me...the code involves every time you have to abide by it, be it work, ceremonies, etc. When you go out dress in whichever way you like, but this may also affect your future relations with the people you meet or do not meet because of the image you are projecting of yourself!!!
Lancelot, with Pip it is a question of slavery, he prefers to have this unreasonable passion for Estella rather tha n find himself a more suitable, more sensitive lady
Laura, I don´t feel sorry for him, as I said to Lancelot this is insane. one should not love a person who is malignant like Estella, bu look for goodness in all that surrounds us.
Yes, Pip dares to speak to her, but he is always in an inferior position, he is despicable.
The movie that we saw yesterday was great, but not only did I enjoy the movie but also the enviroment.I was aware of everything and understand and as the subtitles were in English, I think it was a good learning exercise and I want to thank Fernando because he brought the movie and Carmen who provides us the room.I spend a really good time watching the film.
buff, what a boring chapter I have to summarize next wednesday!! except for a surprising piece of news.
Of course I agree with you , Carmen, that you have to hold a dress code for doing some activities which demand being earnest and professional, and the way you drees can influence conduct people at you, but taking into account those thins
Fashion is something which has not to be imposed in your normal life, if that was the case we would be living in a very closed dressing jail.
REferring to pip´s issue with Estella as far as I am concerned , he is bound to his feelings of love to her, how many times has happened the same to us? can you throw first a stone? you have to be very strong inside in order to fight against this sentiment which is causing a lot of pain to get rid of it and escaping from it satisfactorialy, it means a great effort from you and very clear conception of what is the best way to follow.
It was nothing María, I am very glad of being able to do one´s bit, ;-)Remember the nickname Carmen gave me, hehe, by the way Carmen, many people in class think that my real name is Lancelot, can you do me the favor of clearing thatm thanks a lot, ;-)
http://www.lovetheatre.com/tickets/3174/Great-Expectations
What larks!
Undoubtedly, Pip is sudbued, tamed and tied to Estella's attitude towards him. In class we were discussing that such a deep feeling of incapability of scaping from something that harms us can be pleasurable but I think Pip should have relaxed in his relationship with Estella. Well, a rich idle boy, London at his feet, his pockets full with money, his life spent in dinner parties, going to the theatre... don't you think that more than a girl could have thought of Pip as a "good match" (I don't its equivalent in English, sorry)? But Pip, apparently, has resisted the wind of incipient affairs as a rock, self-deceived and inmersed in a promise.
What if Biddy has crossed Pip's mind after his heartbreaking by Estella?
Lancelot, this is to thank you very much for the nice cake and port we shared the other day...we thoroughly enjoyed it.
Lancelot, I know that controlling feelings is difficult, but control them we must. Imagine it is not one of love but hatred...should we then indulge it to the extent of killing?
admitedly "disprized love" only hurts the lover, but...it is damaging in itself, and we should fight anything that causes us undeserved pain. Estella is a cancer, what has she done to Pip but hurt him always? humiliate him? no, Pip should eradicate this stubborn feeling in favour of something more real, more human.
Carmen, may you tell us the title of our next composition, please?
Sorry, folks I couldn´t do it before leaving and then I had no computer. The title is
"Each character in Great Expectations selects his or her own space in the novel. In turn, the environment also defines the individual character." Can you mention some examples of this interaction? (350 up to 400 words)
In the last chapter Biddy appears again. In my opinion, she is the only one who dares to criticize Pip´s attitude. Although she doesn´t approve the behaviour of her old friend, she doesn´t always criticize him directly- frequently she replies Pip with rhetorical questions that make him think. But occasionally Biddy is so honest and straightforward with Pip that he gets hurt, because he is not used being criticized or questioned.
groupbookings.MP@gmail.com
for steel magnolias
Laura, you are very right, Biddy has personality and is not afraid of tellling Pip a pice of her mind, which of course she doesn´t like
have you realized how easy is make someone happy? i am talking about the "elder" mr wemmik´s father, many times i have wondered why are we so reluctant of doing some good to somebody, moreover to a close friend or a relative. human selfishness is something we must get rid of in order to make this world a better place for living.
happy easter for all, folks.
Pip again talks about his feelings for Estella. He confesses that he has never been even one hour happy in her company but on the other hand his mind is harping on the happiness of having her with him until death. How wrecked is Pip! He is always building castles in the air and tolerates Estella´s ingratitude only because he thinks someone has plans for them.
Knowing her beauty and power, Estella uses Pip to tease other admirers and offends him when they are alone. She is empty and cold-hearted but accuses Miss Havisham of being guilty of this attitude. But should we blame others of our attitude? Even though Miss Havisham rears Estella and encourages her to be proud and hard with others, ultimately she is the only one responsible for her behaviour.
I believe that it is very difficult for a person who has grown up in that environment to have things clear, especially if your mother praises every time you learn the lesson that she give you, although what she teach you was a bad lesson, and as Estella said, she must be taken as she has been made, of sucess and failure.
Finally yu are responsible for your actions no matter who has been taught.
I agree with both of you, no matter how you were brought up, acting in a bad way it´s always a personal responsability, however it is true that your education and enviroment in which you have become an adult influence you a lot, the problem for Estella will be overcome her lessons imparted by Miss havisham in order to get rid of this awful life she is suffering, that is what i deduce from her words of anger towards Her adopted mom.
So long have I been waiting for such a better behavior of Estella towards Pip, referring to that she is doing so hard with others but him, could it be possible that estella is awakening from her empty and dullfull life?
Hi everyone :) talking about the learning enviroment in wich someone can grow up, I disagree with the responsability and the person in wich it is placed. Some of you have said that acting bad or good is your responsability, but what is good behaviour? Has the bad behaviour always been considered as bad? Acting in a selfish way, in other time or in other culture, as Estella sometimes does, could be considered as intelligent for example, why should she think about Pip's feelings?
Caution! I'm not saying you must not think about other people's feelings because of what you do; what I mean is that maybe you or Estella or other "bad person" has not learned what is good (what you call good), not all the people learn what is what, the concepts that you have. As you grow up, I think, you learn from others, your equals, and you are permanently learning and living in new enviroments that you have to adapt to. But in my opinion you need to experiment that specific situations of which you can learn more information.
Hopefully the people change, but not all start from the exactly same beginning, I think
How miserable is Pip! He was so comfortable in his position and thought that Estella was going to be for him that he never tried to find out who s his Benefactor was. Mr. Jagger is right; there was no evidence that Miss Havisham were the one responsible for his education – he was rather naïve thinking this. Now Pip´s life has changed 180 degrees and is becoming quite difficult.
I consider it reasonable that Pip feels disgust about the convict, at least at first to meet him, becasuse Pip now know how a person should behave with others. A very different thing is that, as you get to know the convict Pip apoligize for their ignorance and justify some thing of his behavior; specially knowing that the convict is who has helped him to be a gentleman that was what Pip wanted.
Lancelot, it is ever so easy to devote some of your time to others...provided you are not selfish. Wemmick is ideed someone to copy.
on the subject of responsibility, we are undoubtedly responsible for our own doings, however we have to take into account that upbringing is important and affects people! this is the case with Estella
Laura, it is hard for a person to be in love such a cold-hearted person as Estella is, moreover to be aware of her character and still to stick to the feeling you have for her.
María, your conclusion about Estella is only fair, she is responsible after all, though your position is one of understanding, there is some blame on Miss Havisham as well.
As to Pip´s feelings for Magwich, they are so honest. Pip is repelled by his manners, his total absence of education, particularly when all he wats is to belong to the "club" of "gentlemen". all his world falls apart on the fatal night when the convict puts up an appearance...
Eva, you have a point, but then it appears as though you leave out education. Education is both a code and a guidance and we should have the opportunity of learning so as to be capable of discernment.
What about nature? do you think that there is nothing inside us that has to be enhanced or checked?
Nature is something dificult to enhance in many circumstances, actually, there are some unexpected reactions which provoque our brain to bring out the worst in ourself, how can we manage this annoying things is the main question we have to improve, in order not to react people bad towards us.
Pip has never face reality but when his life falls to pieces he decides go to Miss Havisham´s house. In Satis house he faces the truth and receives a hard blow - not only was he wrong from the first moment about Estella and Miss Havisham but Estella also is going to get married!
Life is always easier when we face the truth even if we don´t like it.
In yesterday´s chapter there is uno of the most beautiful (speech) declarations of love I have read in the last years. It must be wonderful that a person was able to feel that kind of love about you: You are part of my existence, part of myself...
I am feel very sorry for Pip, I undestand that kind of love and how he feels. He wants to be alone he goes through the streets no matter how long the way home take. He was confused and he didn´t want to see anybody.
I agree with Maria. What an amazing love speech! and what a waste of feelings in waiting por Estella's return. I think Pip is a poor man, a humble innocent despised broken heart. Trought the so many years passed since they met he has loved her inconditionally, even when he is perfectly aware that she will never love him. I am jealous of Estella because I have never been the addresse of such deep feelings
I would like to point out a conversation between Herbert and Pip about Clara´s family. “Clara has no mother of her own and no relation in the world but old Gruffandgrim. What a blessing it is for the son of my father and my mother to love someone who has no relations, and who can never bother herself, or anybody else, about her family”
What a sharp talk!! Firstly, I find it funny how he calls his fiancée’s father, “old Gruffandgrim” (gruff & grim) - adjectives that describe perfectly Mr. Barley´s behaviour as he is always growling and complaining.
Secondly, I have always considered Herbert a very reasonable and honest character. But in this chapter I have also discovered his ironic side. He realizes that the fact that Clara has almost no family makes him feel very lucky. He won´t have to listen to his future wife speaking about her family, a subject in which he is not interested.
Undoubtedly Herbert is one of the most sensible and honest characters in the novel.
Girls, some very interesting comments about love, pip and herbert.
In this laast reading of G E I´ve discovered Herbert, he embodies all that is good in human nature, he loves rightly (Pip´s unrelenting love for Estella is almost obssesive), and the correct person, he is a true friend, always there to drop hints as to manners, and to help Pip and his benenfator, a convict though he is, without a moment´s hesitation.
As to pip´s feelings, I can only say that no one has ever loved me like that!!! That I am undeserving proves nothing as Estella, by far is more so than me!!!!
Lance, have you thought that people also bring out the best or the worst from us?
Yes Carmen, concerning you i wish i had brought up the best of you at least more times that the worst, ;-)
Love, our living reason, how easy to get it but how difficult to maintain. I very much regret that you had never experienced it before, but don´t despair , when you least suspected it would happen, just keep on in maintaining your faith in love.
In my opinion, Pip has always been always a lucky person; however he has not appreciated it. Someone trusted and invested their money in him but he didn´t use it correctly; he has always been surrounded by really good people but he didn´t know to care for them so he lost Joe.
His fears, his wish to be a gentleman and his obsession with Estella have occupied most of his life – because of this in the end he has lost all the hopes of his “great expectations” and is left with almost nothing.
He has been a mere spectator of his own life - he takes the reins only in the last chapters. It is too late for the “great expectations” but it is maybe a good moment for starting his real life.
At least pip has corrected his attitude so as to redeem all his wrong decisions throughout his life.
It has been really emotional the last days of magwitch and how pip has been facing magwitch´s irreversible end. He has been at his side all over that time and finally has made feel magwitch reconforted by confessing him that his daughter is still living and very loved by pip.
Now i am eager to know what is going to happen with pip´s life and how is he going to manage the situation separated from his inherit load now passed away.
I believe that the only person that Pip has cared has been Magtwich, though at first Pip rejected him, after that he has tried to put him safe in every way and no matter the money.
Speaking from my personal point of view I think that Pip is a good person because he has helped Herbert in secret and it is the only thing that Pip is proud of having done.
In these last chapters we have been able to see Joe´s kindness once again. It is not easy to find a friend like him: someone who not only supports Pip despite his mistakes but also does not ask too many questions even though he is close him especially during the most difficult moments. Joe loves his nephew just the way he is, with all his defects and virtues. Consequently, he is there when Pip is in trouble, paying his fine and taking care of him during his illness. Furthermore, he does not leave Pip until he has totally recovered, in order not to intrude in his nephew´s life.
On the opposite side, we find Pumblechook (unluckily, in my opinion a rather more common kind of person than Joe). He tried staying close to Pip when the latter was living in a rich way; but when Pip loses his money and decides to go back to his village, Pumblechook´s behaviour changes completely - he treats Pip in a disrespectful and arrogant way as if Pip were the poor and frightened child that he used to be.
Now that the book is running I would like to say that I feel very close to Pip because I perfectly understand the love he feels for Estella. When you feel a love like that, you forget about everything else, things around you are not important and you do things that at another time or in other circumstances never would.
That kind of love that you feel is so strong that you go blind, do not listen to what other people tell you, you fight to get that love with all your strength. Only time makes you come back to reality and that is when you realize that you hurt people dear to you.
That's what happened to Pip now he has realized that has misbehaved with Joe and now he asks for forgiveness for all the evil he has done over the years.
When I finished the book I was disappointed with the ending. In my opinion the end is too conventional. Although it is an open ending we think there is hope between Pip and Estella even thought is not written explicitly. Estella who was evil during her youth has suffered in her married life - Dickens punishes her because of her demeanour. Pip, who regretted his behaviour towards Joe many years ago, comes back to London after having worked hard in Herbert´s Company.
Therefore Estella and Pip meet by chance after many years, in the place where Miss Havisham´s house used to be; having erred in their lives they have suffered and regretted and they are still searching for happiness. Miss Havisham´s house is only memories now, it is only part of their past. When they meet they are not who they were before but they have some things in common: their memories of the house and their past together, their erred life and their pursuit of happiness.
Hello everyone, as the food has been postponed until September, I take the opportunity that give me this blog to say goodbye to the whole class, and at the same time to thank Carmen for the work she has done with each of us. For me it was a pleasure to be in your class.
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