Please, Fifths, post here from chapter 30.
2 de febrero de 2012
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Wilkie Collins
Quiénes somos
- EOIGoya_Inglés
- El Departamento de Inglés de a Escuela Oficial de Idiomas (EOI) "Goya" se suma con este proyecto de blog, con el blog de teatro y con su página de vídeos en YouTube a la explotación de las nuevas tecnologías como parte de la enseñanza de idiomas en la enseñanza pública en Madrid. Un cálido agradecimiento a CMF, sin cuya colaboración esto no sería posible.
Concurso 2007-08
386 comentarios:
1 – 200 de 386 Más reciente› El más reciente»Hi, we have decided to start afresh, as it was impossible for me to find you in spite of Isidro´s help!!
I think that It is a shame to lose the continuity of the comments. So, I propose to continue reading and participating in the previous one. You only have to click on the following address:
www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=6935246113340450885&postID=830945390998159650&isPopup=true&page=3
http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=6935246113340450885&postID=830945390998159650&isPopup=true&page=3
If you intend to copy the address in the bar of addresses of this same page, you will not achieve it. So, you must enter again in internet and paste the address in the new window.
Thank you very much for this information, Isidro.
I will answer to your last commentary:
I find your idea very interesting, Isidro, I haven't realized that. But, in my opinion,two women couldn't be happy and live together during XIX th century. Even in XX th it was very difficult. Even more that if they were men. But I think that Ms Wade, in fact, wants to use the girl for some obscure and misterious purpose, as I said. I think she doesn't love or want her in an unselfish way.
I Tought that you couldn't copy the address in the bar of adresses of this page; but it is possible. In consequence, you can enter easily.
Hi!!
Well, I want to remark the issue of loving one son or daughter more than the other one. And I´m living something related with this. I have to change my comment about Tattycoram´s feelings, because today I met a mother whose love for her daughter is bigger than for her son. And I see the face of this son and I has to be unbearable. To see and to feel how your mother doesn´t love you as much as your brother or sister.
Much as some things have changed with the time, the feelings between parents and children hasn´t changed.
Regarding chapter XXVIII, I love the way Dickens uses metaphores in order to makes us imagine the things he describes, the comparison between animals and people who answer Mr Meagle´s advice. And, for me is adorable how he compares the lose of Pet´s love with the loss of the flowers.
Good weekend!!!!
Good afternoon:
The way in which Dickens tells us Arthur's dissapointment and his decision of forgetting Pet, because she is getting married, altough a bit old-fashioned (perhaps because the whole situation is a bit old fashioned, very few girls today marry as Pet does), is very delicate and subtle. All the chapter is elegant and expresive, and recalls a plaintive mood, a twilighting atmosphere. It is telling that Arthur is going to renounce his purposes and his love. He is going to thorn them up from his heart, painfully, but in a decided way. He is willing to do what is better for everyone, or, at less, what it must be done.
I have enjoyed reading chapter XXVIII, I believe that Dickens makes a wonderful description about the place where Mr. Clennan is walking and I agree with you Isidro about the behavior of Pet. She has a very nice way of saying to Mr. Clennan that she is getting married Gowan, though when she gets closer to him I had the impresion that she was going to say something very different, maybe for the roses or because she was there waiting for him. Well at least they remain as friends, which is a good thing.
Well I have copy my last coment here, because I think that since now we have to write here and not there. Although for me the first one work properly it seems that doesn´t work for the rest of our class, so I am going to write here.
Me, too.
Me, too.
Folks, you will wonder at my absence during the weekend given that we had to use this new Cont. section. well on Friday night, at 5am my daughtter´´s room was literally FLOODED!!! I was woken up in the middle of the night by my husband, rushed to Mag´s room and saw the Niagara Falls gushing, better, downpouring, avalalnching from the ceiling!!! We were three hours baling out water, there were about 7 people in our flat trying to help...it was a kind of nightmare, owing to the fact that our neighbour upstairs has fitten in some very cheap radiators one of whic exploded and we had the water from the heating, from 20 floors in my daughter´s room.
My house is...well upside down!! can you imagine? no heating everything damp (in this cold, and you know that I am always hot),Mag is now sharing with us, but imagine, wardrobes, floor, walls...we are going to have to move out!!! I have been a bit knocked out by all this, and no wonder, so I just couldn´t get to you until today, we are still living the aftermath but it is starting to sink in, I mean after all this is better than an illness of any kind. Having said this I am very angry at this neighbour, who has had a bath made where you can´t have one, cheap radiators he was told would not take the pressure of the central heating, how can anyone act to his own convenience? Let me tell you that he has flooded us three times in 10 years, but never to this extent...well, I hope everything is sorted out in 4 months, nothing less would do and that in a week I can get back to normal...
Oh, my goodness! Really? Well, I am not surprised, my neighbor upstairs removed some parts of the terrace roof when he made a work, and from that day on, we have gutters in my parent's bedroom.
Follow the rest in this link:
http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=6935246113340450885&postID=830945390998159650&page=3&token=1328530263393&isPopup=true#form
Well, I don't know if Clennam and Dorrit are siblings. I don't think so, but, in my opinion, Arthur perhaps is not Mrs Clenam's son. And if they are, I think that Amy is not the daughter of his father, which it would be quite impossible, if we considered thar she was born in the prison. No, but there is something very strange about the Clenams, as I said. And all the chapter about the new dreams of Mrs Affery is not enlightening at all. It ads even more mistery. We have that strange guy, Mr Blandois that I am sure is Mr Rigaud, a.k.a. Mr Lagnier (this guy has changed his name more times than Prince), lurking arround the house...and they allow him to come in! What does he want? Nothing good, just see how he behaves when he is whit Mrs Clenam, and how he behaves when he is alone!
Carmen, what a disaster!!! I’m sorry what happened to your house. It is something terrible, but I agree with you in which it is better than illness or many other things. I hope that your neighbour resolve his problems definitely, because three times in ten years is too much.
He is very cunning (Rigaud-Lagnier-Blandois or what ever he be), and such kind of people is dangerous. He has Jeremiah and Mrs Clennam eating from his hand. I think he knows Jeremiah, but Jeremiah doesn't know him. His strange interest about the clock, the portrait, the house... All this staff smells like blackmail to me...
OMG! What a disaster, Carmen! Unfortunately, this kind of things happen everyday and many people do whatever they want without thinking of anybody or anything. Because of that, I prefer living in my little village. I hope your problems are resolved as soon as possible.
This is the first time (in this year) that I write in the blog, and I haven't been able to read all of your posts.
I agree with you when you say that Mr. Bandois is weird, although at the same time, he seems funny to me. He has the power to lead people wherever he wants, even Mrs. Clennam, who has always shown her rectitude. Besides, the chapter adds the mystery around the watch and its inscription, the portrait and the enchantement of the house.
The end of the chapter lets us the curiosity about what will happen with Mr. Blandois or whoever he is.
So, this chapter is a little be mysterious.
This kind of things happens everyday. Sorry!
Thanks, fifths for your kind wishes for my well "water"-being in the future but...I doubt that this will be solved. The neighbour (I don´t say my) is what we call in Santander "un raquero" and selfish. he only cares for his "purse" that is not spending too much and thus he has flooded me three times in ten years!!!
Two hundred years ago Dickens was born!!! He has been giving us great pleasure for that long. We are very fortunate to be able to read him in English.
I will be in Elisa Tavern tonight at 8.30 as a tribute and it will also be a pleasure. I hope lots of you join the event.
Rosa very interesting posts...family, yes could be. I have lots of catching up to do but I will, I´m still a bit "knocked out" by the flood, you cannot imagine the state of my house, we have 1 room left, but the worst thing is the untidiness...
Good morning:
In my opinion, this Rigaud-Blandois or whatever he be, knows something about the Clenams...something that they don't want to be talked about...and he is willing to tell it, therefor, the possibility of blackmailing...I think that his visit to the Clenams house had the purpose of "exploring the land".
Check the Google Doodle of today!
Good morning:
My aunt has just told me that, this week, the TV contest Saber y Ganar is going to be about Dickens. Yesterday, they talked about Oliver Twist. The schedule of this tv program is a bit problematic, but, if you can watch it...
For all the followers of Dickens:
This month, the magazine La aventura de la Historia publishes an interesting and thorough report about Dickens. For an extra, we can get “Great Expectations” in DVD.
María Luisa Arias ( a former student )
I get it!
Little Dorrit is my first Dicken´s book, but I can say that I will not be the last!!
I think that for all that have read a book of Dickens, today is a great day. It´s the 200th aniversary of Dicken´s birth!!!
Regarding Little Dorrit, nobody has said a word of Mrs Affery´s dream!! What do you think about it? Don´t you think that this chapter confirm our suspicions about the reality of them? And the weird noises she heard, which can be heard also for Mr Blandois? So, it proves that they are not made up by Affery.
And the reaction of Mr Flintwinch when he comes to the house and says to her that she must have taken the dose? He doesn´t want her to know what is happening in the house,even though she is not cunning at all and she has no power. Is there any mistery on her staying there? Is that the reason why Mr. Flintwinch doesn´t want her to know the mistery? Because, let´s face it, she is not capable of leaving the house or of doing something bad to "the two clever ones".
I posted this comment in the other address, but I also put it here because some of you cannot enter there.
Charles Dickens was born on February 7, 2012, 200th years ago. His childhood was so difficult that no one could have imagined that he could create an imaginary world so rich as the one he left us, and that he would achieve so important a place in English literature.
When he was twelve years old, after his father’s imprisonment in Marshalsea’s prison for nonpayment of debts, he had to start working ten hours a day in a factory of bitumen to help his family that lived in jail with his father. Surely, the hardship conditions that he lived being a teenager left a deep mark on him that determined his interest in showing the living conditions of the working class. But, only having a great intelligence and tenacity, a vivid imagination and sensitivity and high doses of irony and sense of humour, could he create a large number of characters that are part of the universal imagination.
I only know a little part of his extensive work, but I am impressed by his deep knowledge of human nature, his capacity of capturing the essence of the events described and his ability to express accurately, and sometimes in a poetic way, the most diverse situations. Thus, in “A tale of two cities”, Dickens showed us an impressive and poetic image of misery and horror of people, in London and Paris, at the end of eighteen century. “Little Dorrit” shows that people still suffered many hardships in nineteen century, living in a situation of ignorance and impotence before the ineffectiveness of a corrupt administration. In “Hard times” and in “Great Expectations” Dickens explores the possibility of improving society through the education, and the dangers derived of an education focused exclusively in material success, ignoring the importance of feeling. In Chistmas Carol, he insist in the idea that a life obsessed by material success, without taking into account the feelings of people, becomes a sad and empty life.
200 years have passed, but Dickens will live while characters as Mr Carton, Doctor Mannete, Mr Clennam, Little Dorrit, Pip, Joe, Mr Gradgrind, Scroog and many other remain in the collective imagination of Humanity.
Good nigth:
I have just been in the Dickens reading at the Elisa Tavern. Do you want to know if I have liked it? Well, I did, and I did not. The performers seemed quite good, and the texts chosen, interesting. All of them in period costumes, with musicians in period costumes too, performing popular tunes in folk instruments, and with some people disguised like Dickensian characters. It could have been very good. Now, the bad things: in my opinion, the organization was not good. They started half an hour later than they should, the place was very small for such many people. It was hard to watch or even to hear the performers. Very crowdy, extremely much. A real pity, because the atmosphere seemed very good, and many of the people there were people whose native language was English. We had to go before they finished, because it was becaming late, and such many people in such a small place were absolutely unbearable to me.
As I said, a pity...
Thank you for the review Rosa. You´re great!
I was sad because I had to work and it doesn´t permit me to go, but after your comment, I am happier. Also, I´m sorry for you and those who went to see it.
Thank you very much for keeping us informed every day!!!
I went to the reading, yesterday, and liked i a lot. I agree with Rosa that the place was too small and thus croweded, but the reading was great as was the performance, the intonation, the voices, I mean they DO NOT SHOUT like the Spanish actors, they act!!! They show feeling with their intonation, not their screams. In our country if you shout you are angry, annoyed, scared, anything really and all voices of actors have the same tone. They were FANTASTIC. As to creating an atmosphere, the mere usage of a candle and a few items of clothing was enough to do the trick. I stayed until the end of it all and consider it one of the best performances I have seem this year.
Folks, there certainly is something very strange in that house. Affery knows Rigaud, for sure, and it is interesting what Rosa has said that Clennam is not his mother´s son...though the possibility of Dorrit and Clennam being brothers also exits, better half-brothers?...continue reading.
My house we will start to sort out this weekend!! Thank God I´m going to the theatre tomorrow evening, can you imagine what it is like to live for nearly a week now, with everything out of place, things thrown on the floor, paintings in the drawing-room, we cannot walk from one room to another, and live goes on, I mean we have to go to bed, get up, have breakfast, do the washing, the ironing, the cleaning...a f------ nuisance!!!
thanks; Isidro, for a most interesting post about Dickens, yes he is a giant, I missed you yesterday at the pub, you shold have come and meet some of the English actors.
Monica, Flintwinh wants to make sure that Affery is afraid to speak thr truth...thus he aplies the dose reguarly..it is the common way and behaviour of those who maltreat women.
María, in answer to your post dated 21st January..i´ve liked your quotes, very well-connected, and...revenge, not unfrequently have I felt that revenge implies taking arms against a sea of troubles. I know it is more in keeping with religious belief to forgive and ...forget, but it is certainly difficult, in some cases impossible (at least for a time, for a long time, I would add) not to relish in the idea of revenge...
Fernando, of course you need guts for revenge, a lawyer said once to a friend of mine "te llevo el caso con una condición: sin piedad, no me vengas después con que te da pena y que ya es bastante..." he won the case and died of cancer...in prison.
my friend did say enough, when he learnt about the cancer, but the lawyer reminded him of the agreement...you need guts
María, how convenient that you have connected revenge with nobility...je, je, we will make use of this point of view...
Beatriz, you raise the question of whether revenge is worthwhile...if you have guts it is.
Rosa, Hamlet is forced to take revenge, he did want to do it, he did not feel his life in danger, he wanted to revenge his father, who had told him to take his revenge in his hands.
María, he did want to avenge his father but his doubts are how to bring it about, how to dare do it!"remember me" is enough, don´t you think?
I soemhow thought that the deseaced father HAD TOLD HIM TO DO SO, thank God yu´ve posted the comment, María, otherewise I would have persuaded I have no memory
Fernando, it is easy to feel superior to anyone who is not as educated, cultivated rich as you are...we have to be kind-hearted, not haughty or proud.
Isidro, Dickens is using the game of cards as a metaphor, exactly like in a tale of two cities when Carton plays the game of cards with the spy.
Oliva, Miss rugg and Chivery?? no, I think he is in jest, I mean Mr. Rugg
I think, Rosa, that men with dreams are more dangerous in many ways than men of action...there is nothing worse, if you think about it and understand me, than a man who thinks he thinks
Rosa and Isidro in your discussion about men of action and men of dreams I have to agree with Isidro, his arguments are convincing and right, and let me tell you that both of you express yourselves amazingly well in the English language, so stop whimpering about how bad you are at English..and this is your Captain speaking, just say I write well, you won´t be thought proud, you are merely stating a fact.
Monica, the fact that Tattycoram is made to count to twenty-five does not mean that she is badly treated, indeed this is a common way of teaching people to control themselves, I myself have been told this several times when younger...with the best intention. it never bothered me, other things as making differences between me and others did annoy me more, my equals, I mean not people who were in a different position as is the case with Pet and Tattycoram.
I take Isidro´s view of miss Wade, she is a woman, homosexuality, particularly lesbic relationships were not discussed in dickens ´times, marian Halcome, in the woman in white is rahter masculine, but she doesn´t reject men, gets on well with Mr.Hartright and in general is what we could say a strong woman, miss Wade is cruel, she likdes to see suffering, she feels a positive feeling a feeling of companionship a fellow sufferer but in a cold-blooded wa, she is...bitter (amargada)
isidro, I cannot agree with you when you say that we have to understand that Pet loves Gowan, because love is blind. no, some women pursue wrong men. A friend of mine said to me once talking about me and a certain person of my family with whom you are acquainted "you always choose men better".....you see it is not a matter of blindness it is a matter of identifying heart, character, personality...and to being attracted by what is wrong or by what is better...
I have procalimed that being STUBBORN is certainly a fault, it causes a lot of unhappiness and comes of pride....beware those of you suffering from this..
Folks, we are, we will try to get Michelle to fix it for us next year if she is with us, she thinks we should have a forum, so perhaps next year we change this for a forum. she told me that she cannot fix it, and if she can´t we are lost!! we cannot either.
I think that I will stop now, I´ve done quite a bit of catching up this evening, so I will continue Friday, I am on the 6th feb13.11
Carmen, thank you very much; your compliment overwhelms me. You have repeated many times that the more we write the better, and I have followed your instructions to the letter. But I consider that the best way to keep improving is don’t believe that we are good, because if we did it, we would lower our guard.
Why, yes. And also, the guys in the Dickens thing made all the voices without being ridiculous, which is very difficult, in my opinion.
I'll try to read again the last chapters, because there are some things that I haven't understood well. Then, I'll try to commnent.
Have a nice day.
Hi!
Regarding Affery´s demeanour, I undestand Mr Fintwinch´s fear about her; but, as I have said, do you think that she has someone to speak with about the truth? Is she dangerous in this issue? I don´t think so. She does what the two clever ones said to her what to do.
I´m not sure about the acquaintance between Mr Rigaud and The Clennams. As he had said to Mr. Flintwinch, don´t you think that he would be connected with Mr Flintwinch, and that is the reason why he is staring at him all the time?
Maybe he, wise as he is, is trying to get information about the Clennams through Mr. Flintwinch.
It was another thing that surprises me very much in this chapter: bitter as Mrs Clennam usualy is, she was really talkative with Mr. Blandois, even explaining to him what were the clock inscriptions meaning, doesn´t it surprise you? And Mr. Flintwinch was drinking with him!!!! Amazing, don´t you think? I don´t like neither Rigaud nor Flintwinch. Both of them remind me these little animals whose lives depend on the blood of another animals (ticks!!).
Sorry! Other animals!!
Why are you, Carmen, so sure that Hamlet did want to avenge his father´s murder? I mean Prince Fortinbras is more like a traditional revenge tragedy hero for he takes swift and forceful action, while it takes Hamlet forever to perform. Hamlet delays taking action... Why? Doesn´t it make you think he didn´t really want to? Too weak? No guts? He had to kill a relative and a king! However, unless he killed his uncle, his father would not leave Purgatory, and his ghostly form, towards Heaven. But Hamlet is a protestant to whom Purgatory was a Catholic superstition! Anyway, if he wanted to avenge his father´s murder, he was certainly unable. "O, vengeance!
Why, what an ass am I!" Furthermore, Hamlet wonders on one ocassion whether the ghost be his father´s spirit or the devil. So he is not sure whether it is right, in the mind, to suffer the sling and arrows of the outrageous Fortune (so to say, forget about it, resign) or take arms against a sea of troubles and by opposing end them (so to say, take bloody action once for all!). I think that he is lazy and wonders too much (not that I would have done better!). Not until he knows of people who are going to fight and die for a tiny piece of territory, does he set a direct course for revenge. Hence my opinion that, for Hamlet, revenge is more like a moral, honorable, noble, even political duty than a personal wish.
As to nowadays, taking revenge is worthwhile and... sinful. As long as it is deserved and brings justice, I believe it would be less sinful and more... satisfactory. However, I guess it would be necessary to go to confession afterwards, just in case...
Yesterday we did not talk about Tip’s attitude towards Mr Clenam. It is strange that being a disaster as he is, how can Tip reproach him for not having answered a request once?
On the other hand, why Mr Dorrit decides to be kind with Mr Clenam is clear; Mr Clenam has sent him a bank-note, so Mr Dorrit is very grateful and for this reason he asks his sister to be there when Mr Clenam arrives and he gets very angry when his son behaves rudely toward Mr Clenam. It is strange that all the relationships Mr Dorrit has are related with money and social position. For me, it is difficult to understand how LD is so unselfish having grown up in this family, do not you think so?
Good morning:
I have read again some of the last chapters, and I realized some things that I didn't see the first time that I do. Perhaps Mr Gowan was not as nice as I thought; perhaps Pet was even more stupid that I believed, or there is something that I didn't understand there. Mrs Gowan, Mr Gowan's mother, didn't aprove the marriage, in my opinion, of his son and Pet, because she feels that his son could have chosen something better. And so doesn't Mr Meagles, Pet's father. Because of that, she asks Arthur to soothe the relations between her father and Henry when she had gone. And it seems she doesn't want to marry him, because she says she is going to miss her home and her family. But his father, aparently, is not forcing her to marry Henry, because it seems he dislikes him. Why, then, is she marrying him? In the XIX th Century, many girls married because their families wanted them to do so, but this doesn't seem to be the case. Which is more, she seems to be found or Arthur, and this makes his pains more acute because he knows very well that he is going to lose her forever. Have I misunderstood the chapter?
I am sorry if somebody feels that this post is very long, but I belived that the purpose of this blog was to practise our English and our writting, in an advanced level, not elementary and, therefore, I thought, the commentaries should not be telegrams, but have some ideas.
María,I think that Hamlet wants to revenge Papa, it would be expected of him, it was not so agressive to do this as we think, now, if we think that, because in war films, in police films, if you see what i mean we see that revenge at s.o.´s hands is done. What worries Hamlet is how to do it and whether he will succeed in doing it. Of course to kill s.o. can be easy, depending on the circumstances, on what your head is going through at that moment, or difficult, if you do not want to be discovered and found guilty of murder. I believe Hamlet to have been carefully considering what he ought to do, to act fairly, but undoubtedly there are doubts in his course of action.
Rosa, I think Pet wants to marry Gowan because she in love with him!! women married with the acquiesce of family, this was the ideal, but so is it now, isn´t it? it is preferable that everyone is happy with weddings, though now we see less of the family.
Your post is correct, to practice the writing you need a paragraph, if it is too short one may not be able to say what you want.
I feel that some students are a little put out by some of our long posts and they don´t want to write so much. I would suggest that these posts, if felt as too long should not be read by those of you who do not want to, but it is VITAL that you all write. it forces you to think in English and it forces you to be careful with what your write.
I also know that those of you who find it a bit difficult to write are put out by good, long posts, but we all made a start of it sometime, think when are you going to start?
Ummh... I suppose so. But, even so, she doesn't look very happy, I don't know, it's like if she was doing something of what she wouldn't be pretty sure...
Well, for me it is clear that Mrs Affery is not a sleepwalker or nothing at the sort, but her husband wants her to think that. I am almost certain that she was not asleep when all those strange things happened in the house. But everybody treats her as an inferior, and she thinks she is. That Mr Rigaud is a very clever man. He not only changes his name, but I am sure he is impersonating someone, the real Mr Blandois, perhaps, and posing as a respectable man. Perhaps he killed him and took the letter that he produced in front of Jeremiah and Mrs Clennam. And I think he already knew the house, the misterious watch and even the late Mr Clennam. And I am sure he is going to blackmail the Clennams. In my opinion, he knows something about the family, something that the don't want to be told, and he is willing to tell it, unless he would be paid. Could it be something about Arthur's origins? Perhaps something concerning the way in which the Clennams did their fortune, may be a not clean one? We will see...
Good afternoon.
Good evening:
In my opinion, Mrs Plonwish is a sort of Little Dorrit with her own father, the Old Nandy, because she feels an exagerated admiration to him. But they are more sympathetical, nicer. The reaction of Fanny and Mr Dorrit, when they see Amy with the Old Nandy is exagerated: after all, she is doing nothing, but helping an old man. As Beatriz said, both Fanny and Tip behave in a selfish, snobish way. Even Mr Dorrit is such a hypocrite with Old Nandy when he invites him to have the tea, puting him apart, like if he were going to contaminate the others, and making a fool of him. And the poor old chap doesn't realize. Mr Dorrit is even more ridiculous than Nandy. Neither Fanny nor Tip are ashamed of their behaviour in front of a stranger, as Arthur is. They don't mind if their are desgracing their own father. They only think in their own and inmediate benefits. In my opinion, they don't care at all of the family's reputation (and I think that this, Mr Dorrit does.) Clearly they are overreacting, and I suppose that Dickens put this episode there to make their characters more selfish and Little Dorrit more altruistic. And we have here again Pancks, the gipsy, the fortune-teller. What had he found out? What is he intending? Why Amy is so afraid when he is with Mr Clennam?
If you are planning to go to London:
http://viajes.es.msn.com/recomendaciones/fotos.aspx?cp-documentid=160527682
The London of Dickens.
Hi!
Beatriz, I think that Tip´s attitude is horrible. He wants to be as his father is, but he is not as wise as his father, though the father of the Marshalsea is not so cunning. Stubborn as Tip is, he is not going to get what he wants. And Mr Dorrit knows that they can´t be obstinate, because he is conscious that they can lose a lot with this kind of behaviour.
On the one hand, I think that Pet is in love with Mr Gowan, and that´s why she said to Mr. Clennam that she is happy. At the same time, she is worried about her father´s reaction and this is the reason why she is not so happy. I have no doubt of it.
On the other hand, she is concerning to marry Mr. Gowan, because she doesn´t know him very well. It is totally different from nowadays, when we marry after having gone out, at least, for two or three years or having lived together some time. At those times, they leave their home for the first time to share the rest of their lives to someone they don´t know so deeply, adding the fact that Pet is really happy living with her parents. In my opinion, this is the second reason why she is anxious.
Finally, I don´t want to comment very much about the lenght of the comments, because there is a very large discussion about it on the other page of the blog, but I find it difficult to write a long comment, and therefore I admire those who can do it, because you have the level, and your comments are very good written and the reasons you give are really good connected. You can express your ideas very clearly and that´s something important so as to get the level. Also, add that the reading of those comments makes me to understand better the novel and to think during some time in English.
So, CONGRATULATIONS for those of you who have the level!! And thank you very much!
Good evening!
Hi Litle Family:
What a wanderfull description of the symptoms of being in love in Chapter XXXII!!! Does anybody who had fallen in love not to be identificate to Amy? I do. I've had my hands shivering, I've felt tears running through my chins, I've felt my fool heart beating being close to the loved one. But the worst thing is that this one wouldnt notice your feelings.
Being Amy the only person who could read Arthur's mood, how can he be so blind? He is surprised by Amy's commentary about his being ill. She knows Arthur deeply. It's true that he's still trying to forget Pet, but had he been a woman, he would had noticed something, I'm sure. Arthur's submission to the fact that he's too old to love and be loved, it's a terrible pain for Amy.
Anyway I really sorry all your problems in your house, Carmen. What a nightmare. I hope it would be solved as soon as possible.
And finally, I went to the Eliza and I really enjoyed the performing, they are superb! Very good performers indeed. The organisation was rather a mess, but I spent a very good time despite the problems.
See you tomorrow.
Oliva.
Yes, you are quite rigth. When one is young, and in love, you do quite stupid things...Yes,Beatriz, you are quite rigth. The Dorrits are snobish, and mean. Really, as somebody said up, it is difficult to understand how a girl like Amy could come from a family like this.
In my opinion, Amy loves Arthur, and Arthur loves Amy, but, for different reasons, they don't want to say it. Perhaps they don't even know. Of course none of them consider the posibility of a marriage, for me that is clear: Arthur feels he is too old for a girl like Amy, and perhaps he wouldn't marry a girl grown in a prison. Amy just can not marry a gentelman like Arthur, nor even dream with that, and very probably she just doesn't to get married because, as she says, she feels her place is near to her father. To cry, and do such scenes is not so strange when you are a teenager (well, Amy is twenty two, I think). And I think that all the Pet affaire is very fresh to Arthur, too much to allow him to think about marriages. I think that perhaps he really didn't want to marry Pet for the same reasons, but he doesn't want to marry Amy (he is older, he has not much money...) but, even so, he doesn't want to see her married with Mr Gowan.
And we have again Pancks, the gipsy, the fortune teller, making his apparition, drunk, but not of wine (altough he has had several beers), but of a great excitement...He has made, apparently, a great discover. What could it be?
Good night.
Oliva, how right you when you say that chapter 32 describes the state of being in love so well, notice that the words being in love are not used, we are meant to guess it.
Rosa; I think that Affery is wide awake and a threat to the two clever ones...that´s why she Flinchwich married her, so that she could not bear testimony against him. Mrs. Clennam also wants to hide something...but i do not think she is as Flinchwinch, he is more after the money she is more after what is right.
Monica; I think that Pet is worried to leave her parents and concerned that her parents do not like Gowan, she perceives that they could be right, that there is some slight wrong with his character..
Monica, I want to thank you very much for showing your opinion, because after having known that there had a consensus against the long comments, it is a relief to me to know that there are people that think other way.
As Carmen said, people can decide their level of participation on the blog. We can read all or only the shorter comments, and we can write much or little. In my case, for example, I read all but I can’t give my opinion about all of them. Otherwise, I think that many short comments express very interesting ideas; and sometimes long comments, as many of mine, only express an idea, and the length of them only have the target of practice the language.
Monica, I agree with you that it is not easy to write a good and long comment, at least it is my case. And in my humble opinion, I would not talk of the best comment without including yours.
Do you see which is my problem? I only wanted to say thank you and I have written a new long comment. Therefore, I can understand those which consider that this rhetorical exercise is a waste of time.
So, I’ll write some of my comment in the other address to not annoy too much.
Carmen, I had the intention of publishing this comment in the other address, but after reading your instructions, I will follow them strictly; so, I’ll not write there any more.
Otherwise, Carmen, I know that the blog is an additional burden to you, and I would understand that you should put a limit to our comments, because the classes and the correction of our compositions take you much time. But, as you permit us to participate freely while you can support the added burden, I want to show you my thanks for giving us some of your free time.
In my view, Mr Dorrit’s attitude in chapter XXXI is contradictory. At first he was angry, then faltering, and at the end condescending.
When he saw his daughter accompanying Mr Nandy, he felt ashamed and humiliated, therefore he had initially a hostile reaction against Mr Nandy; but little by little he was softening his position, and after receiving Mr Clennam’s letter with a bank’s note, he became a different person; the money “improved his spirits remarkably, and he was quite lightsome.”
From this moment on, he made a shameless display of hypocrisy. Thus, he said: “Where is my old pensioner all this while? We must not leave him by himself, or he will begin to suppose he is not welcome, and that would pain me..........Come upstairs Nandy, you know the way; why don’t you come up-stairs?...........And finally, he presented him to a Collegian as an old acquaintance and he invited him to take tea and the best delicacies.
It is possible to be more false and hypocritical?
I was astonished seeing the effect of a bank’s note in Mr Dorrit’s humour. He had just shown his deep disappointment to Amy, but the money immediately brightened his existence. He told his daughter not to be uneasy about him because he was quite himself again. And he went to receive his pensioner, displaying his magnificence, as a peacock, with his black velvet and humming a tune, cheerful of playing his high social role.
But poor Amy’s bitterness will slowly dissolve in the solitude of his room, with the only support of Maggy and Mr Clennam’s kindness who, as Olivia says, can not understand the clear signs of a wounded heart.
I am astonished that Mr Clenam controls his temper perfectly; being a gentleman as he is, he decides not to answer to Tip’s reproaches. Not only doesn’t Tip greet Mr Clenam but also he begins to complain because Mr Clenam did not give money when he asked for it a long time ago. Tip is very unfair to Mr Cleman, he must not know how he has helped him. He is not worthy of it, the reason which explains Clenam’s attitude is that he is worried about Little Dorrit.
For me it is undoubtedly that Clenam is in love with Amy but he does not know clearly. We frequently pass near to love without seeing it or regarding it and if it is without recognizing it. I think that Clenam is in this situation. He only needs more time to realize that he is in love. Why is the reason of his frequent visits to the prison or his replay to Mr Dorrit’s requirements?
Sorry folks about being absent, but i am doing a military course in Navacerrada´s port, and the use of internet is very restricted.
Carmen, I don´t think that this is a question of guts or to be haughty or proud, i don´t feel superior to anybody and of course i am enough humble to recognize that i was wrong and my ways of explaining were not so good, so to summarize, my excuses to everybody, for me, this issue is buried.
Carmen, sorry but this week will be imposible to me to assist to your classes , we are trapped because of the snow and the survivor course in high mountain finishes at 7 every day.
I hope to see you soon, and at last i have to sum up that my girlfriend has broken with me up, and i am very sad for doing nothing.
And sorry for being so bad at writting , but i only have a ten minute conection and i have to do many things in this ten minutes.
What a terrible thing, Fernando, it must be claustrophobic!I couldn't be in your place, I'd be terrified in a situation like that.
Tip's behaviour is selfish and inmature. And I don't think as Mr Dorrit as a wise man, but just the opposite. Of course there are hypocrite, but probably they don't realize.
Well, Beatriz, you have explain it very well. Arthur is a gentelman and behaves like that. It is rare to find men like this: there are very few left. Adn Tip is not, although he thinks he is. That is the difference.
Good nigth.
I agree with Oliva and it seems to me that "to be in love" is the best in your life. The emotions you feel are so wonderful that you can feel them seems to lie. I feel envy about the time when Arthur realizes that he loves Amy, that´s a wonderful moment, but these is not long or at least as hard.
I believe that Arthur does not realize because he has his mind on other things such as thinking that he is old and is only able to be with Little Dorrit as a friend, and so on.
Well this is my opinion. What do you think about?
Good afernoon!
I don´t really thought that Mr Dorrit were wise, but I said it to compare that Tip is even more fool than his father, and to remark that his father thinks he is clever. We can see his stupidity on chapter XXXII, when we see how his humor changes so quickly...
It´s my believe that Mr Clennam doesn´t love LD. We want him to love her, because we like him, and wish him a life with love, happiness and all the good things. That´s because, deep down in our hearts, all of us think that he is a good person and he deserves these things. But, he is worried about his age and, as Carmen said in class, he would be almost distressed because of her being in prison.
Regarding Fanny´s behaviour when she saw her sister arm in arm with a beggar, I want to say that I don´t agree with her reaction. Were I Fanny I will behave in a similar way, but what I want to remark is that she is not so good a person so as to doubt about her sister´s demeanour. And how horrible his behaviour was in front of their father! She, who was helped to get her job! Who is a dancer, and, as someone has said on the blog may end up working as a prostitute! Does she really have power to judge her sister? I doubt it deeply! She had better help her sister instead of whispering bad thing on their father´s ear and make things worse!
Cheer up Fernando!!
Little Dorrit is in love with Mr Clennam, but he only sees in her a helpless, good, little woman; I would say that he sees in her a girl more than a woman, with worn shoes, common dress and with an unfortunate family circumstances; and he thinks of her as a father can think of his daughter. Remember that his interest in Little Dorrit, in principle, was determined by his suspicion that his mother hided something that could be related with Dorrit’s family. And after knowing the living condition of this family, he has helped them frequently and he has been witness of the daily struggle of Little Dorrit to maintain his family, and he also has known her great heart.
So, in my opinion, Mr Clennam feels pity for Little Dorrit but he is not in love with her. He is a noble man and he has a great heart, therefore he want to relieve Little Dorrit pain; he shows himself kind and tender with her, and he want to be useful to her. But his blindness to catch Amy’s real feeling is amazing and therefore, much as he want to relieve her suffering, he produces her a great pain.
Mr Clennam didn’t understand Amy’s words when she told him “ ….you know that nothing can touch you without touching me; that nothing can make you happy or unhappy, but it must make me........”; nor he caught the real meaning of the thrill of his voice or of her deep emotions that were showing clearly the intensity of her love.
So, in my view, Mr Clennam don’t think of Amy as a lover but as a father; he feels for her tenderness and pity. We don’t know what would be his attitude in case he were in love with her. If he were like Fanny, I am sure that he would reject her; but I think that he is more like Amy, and in this case, perhaps we could see realized a miracle. But the reality is that Mr Clennam at present is not in love with Little Dorrit, therefore he can’t imagine that he is inflicting her a great sorrow when he offers her a place to live out of jail. However, we are in the middle of the story and everything can happen; but I think it very difficult that a pessimistic man that sees himself too old could fall in love with whom he consider a young girl. Don’t you think so?
In my opinion a marriage with a wide age difference between them is not easy, unless that age difference be when both of them have reached maturity. So if you are a teenager, and nowadays people are a teenager for a long time, and the other person is older than you I have many doubts about the success of this marriage.
If the woman is in their twenty it is very difficult to have the maturity to marry a man who for his age has other wishes, other purposes in life…Perhaps in the XIX century this could work because you had not any other solution but nowadays in all likelihood this marriage will be break up.
On the other hand, I think that M Clenam can fall in love with Amy although she lives in prison because it is different to live in prison than to be a prisoner. Amy’s good qualities are not indifferent to Mr Clenam; not only does he regard her as a friend, but also as a lover.
Good morning:
Well, María and Olivia, I can't agree with you in all the things that you say. Because, as I already said, in my opinion, love is not beatifull, or marvellous. Love is sad, and painful: looke the condition of Little Dorrit. Perhaps I think like that because all my experiences with love had been negative. I suppose I am not the kind of person which is beloved. And, in adition, as I said in the cinema blog, when a woman has a gift, she mustn't have any earthly love, and must forget all but her own art. As in the Bible is said, you can't have two masters.
Unequal marriages is a problematic issue. They can work, but, also, they can't. In the past, they were very frequent. Even in the litterature. Usually, the society forgive the couple when the woman is younger, but not if is the opposite case, because we lived and we are still living in a sexist society, that only sees a woman as valuable if she is young, beatiful and able of having children. Many people, in the past, married when they were very young, speacially women, with people that they didn't know and were chosen by their parents. Many women became widows when they were only twenty five or thirty years, or even younger.
I must confess that I was not very shocked when I learnt that men like Allan Poe or Machado were married with women who only were sixteen, while they were in their middle thirties, or something like that. Of course, this is not the ideal thing, but, surely, they must love their wives, because when they died, their were devastated. In the litterature, we have Arthur and Amy (we don't know if they are going to be married, yet), Jane Eyre and Mr Rochester (she was nineteen or twenty, and he thirty eigth, if memory helps). And in Romeo and Juliet...Juliet was only thirteen..!(Really, this Romeo was a PERVERT!)...but I suppose this was common at those days, because her father wanted her to marry another older man, and one of the character says that girls younger that her are already happy mothers...Well, no wonder such many women died from pregnancy or labor...In India, African and Muslim countries, is common find marriages with children, in our days, and we are scandalized because of that, but we are not amazed when we read about them in books...I suppose we are still very hyppocrite.
Even so, in my opinion it's not necessary to have love in a marriage, or even to are both of the people in the same age range, to make it work. More, if love, as I said, is not roses bouquets and restaurant desserts. In my opinion, is enough if they have some things in common, and specially, mutual respect. Which is, in my opinion, something that we have lost today. We don't respect not even ourselves, how are we going to respect the other people?
I am sorry for this long post.
Have a nice day.
isidro, thanks. It is my pleasure to read all your comments, I love Dickens and i find most interesting to read what readers of all ages, two centuries after feel about his work. So, I do it with pleasure. I much prefer this to correcting compositions about globalization!!!
Mr. Dorrit´s mood changes as soon as he receives money. It looks bad, so bad...but it has happened since, and to.. to..me!!! When suddnely you see that you have received a present of money, your wages, your double pay at Xmas, you go to the bank and come out better disposed to quarrel with no one and find fault with none! Mr. Doritt is horrible indeed, but, aren´t we all?
beatriz, I don´t think that Clennam is in love with Little Dorrit. you don´t fall in love with a woman in her circumstances, you do not. That is Young John, yes, but not a fully grown-up man. Clennam is in love with Pet, we know this he has admitted it himself to Little Dorrit.
as to why he puts up with Tip, one would not be patient with someone who is such an inferior to you and who you secretly think you have wronged!!
Fernando; I´m indeed, surprised o read your comment..have I said that any of you were proud????
ok, buried, we could try an epitaph as young John...
Your girl-friend gone? Well, Fernando "frailty, thy name is woman" says Shakespeare and made us fast and fickle for the rest of our lives! "la donna e mobile, cual piuma al vento", said Verdi, but as having experienced the opposite (Marta once said to me "tu no dejas nunca a un tio", implying something negative,but, on the contrary, I consider it as highly positive, I´m very constant even if I was fed up with the guy they always dropped me...), I can assure you that you will quickly sustitute her...and for a better one. In the meanwhile, your English will thrive, she was jealous of you because she did not speak it...and why don´t you go on a weekend to London? I will ask María to be your escort...she is awfully nice and speaks English.
Cheer up! "enemigo que huye puente de plata" and beware of thinking of wishing to come back to that relatioship "when the gods want to punish us they grant us our wishes" get running and save your life...and to London, a long week end there will work wonders on you.
Mrs Gowan strategy to present his son’s marriage on Society is an extraordinary exercise of hypocrisy. In reality, the marriage is a good trade for her family but she must play the necessary role to spread the idea that her family’s status is higher than the one of the Meaggles, who according to her version made an unsupportable pressure that achieved to alienate her son’s will. So, she intends to keep up appearances so that nobody can think that they seek to solve their economic problems through this marriage.
Mrs Gowan’s encounter with Mrs Merdle, with the parrot as an attentive witness, was a very comic part of her strategy. Mrs Merdle, received Mrs Gowan, showing herself as a large display of jewelry, as corresponded to one of the most representative of Society, and after analyzing the circumstances of the marriage from the point of view of what is considered appropriate in a civilized society, they agreed that, given the circumstances, the marriage could take place. However, Mrs Gowan, very relieved by Mrs Merdle’s blessing, insisted in emphasizing her fictitious reluctance.
Otherwise, I think that the discussion between Mrs Merdle and his husband is very interesting. Mrs Merdle became upset when her husband entered into the room with his common manners and low spirits. She could not stand his exhibition of vulgarity before Mrs Gowan, the highest representation of Society!!!!.
But before his wife’s complaint Mr Merdle could not be more overwhelming; thus, he said to her that if she were not an ornament to Society they wouldn’t be together. And as she continued talking about good manners, he added: “You supply manner, and I supply money.” So, he set clearly the division of roles in the family.
In consequence, we see that Mr Merdle is not willing to yield to his wife’s request and that marriage not always involves love; however, don’t you think that it would be an ideal situation for many women?
María Arthur is not aware that heis in love with Amy, but Pet. I think that to be in love is wonderful, so nice so innocent, such strength, so close with the beloved..but it is transitory. that is the bad thing about it, then one wonders how you could have felt that for that person, don´t you?
I hardly think that a wide difference in age either way is positive to a relationship, one eventually has to face..decay. Men should be aware that they also age and it is pathetic to se them with younger women, who by the way, are with them only out of interest. Years ago there used to be a bigger difference than currently, this was for obvious reasons, men provided for the family and needed to have the position to provide.
Most people think as you, Carmen, do. You may think it is not appropriate, nowadays, it being carried out under unjustified reasons, while, a few decades ago, it could be certainly convenient. "Decay" you say... I see, then, that all is connected with death; so it is nothing but the universal fear of being lonely. Therefore, in my opinion, people who "cannot help" falling in love with much younger or older people and keep going in spite of everyone else´s opinion are the bravest, for they fight for their love, which cares not about age but something else, and don´t mind the "decay".
Nevertheless, as the English say: "Mind the gap". I guess that it is nicer to share the "firsts"...
I´m sorry that your girlfriend has dropped you, Fernando! I hope it doesn´t have anything to do with the issue on facebook with your ex! As Carmen says, London will do you good -whom wouldn´t it?- and, as long as I am off duty, I will be happy to show you around and... introduce you to the gappies in Woldingham! Or maybe they are too young for you... Do you "mind the gap", Fernando?
I'm on the tube. I've just left "El centro gallego" and I'm astonished!! It was so great. The actor were incredible!! What a lovely performance!!
There were four diferent plays. Summimg up, the first, THE BEST, INCREDIBLE!. The second really funny and the two other ones good, but, having seen the first, nothing.
So, I hope Hamlet be one of the best plays I will have ever seen!
Good weekend everyone!
María, I´m killing myself with your email particularly your address to Fernando, really that "do you mind the gap" connected with the gappies is...brilliant! Congrats
Now, fernando...get the ticket and go, you will practice your English and life is to be lived... I´ll see you tomorrow and we will discuss the details
Rosa, Romeo and Juliet were more or less the same age, so he was not a pervert, he was a teenager as well.
Centuries ago marriage of a young girl and an older man was not perceived as correct if the gap was too big. Marie Antoniette had to wait for a some time before she went to bed with Louis XVI, her husband as she was considered to have been too young.
Isidro, I totally agree with you that this could be a suitable situation for women but with a little inconvenience currently and that would be that men drop us now, easily, more so than then.
Now if such a marriage is suitable and both are correct they can be happy together, if they happen to have different lives or can find ocupations that doesn´t keep them together. Charlotte Lucas was certainly a master in making a happy marriage out of a very unsuitable one, and with a fool of a husband.
Well, I always thougth he was older (like twenty, or something like that, when you are quarreling with weapons with other boys, you are living in poor suburb, I understand, because you don't figth with knifes at your teeens if you are not...By the way, in West Side Story, the musical adaptation of Romeo and Juliet, they lived in a poor neighborhood and had figths with knives...but none of them were in their teens, altough they are supposed to be... It was the same thing in The Student of Prague, Grease and in Tv series like Melrose Place or Beverly Hills 90210: all the teenagers were thirty).
I have hear the history about Marie Antoinette. Not always they waited to have the proper age, I have heard that Louise Gabrielle of Savoy, first wife of Philip V of Spain married at thirteen (he was not very much older). During the weding banquet, she got angry with her husband, and she didn't allow him to come into her room during three days, what was something scandalous. She had her first son when she was eighteen (the future Louis I)... Even so, they were eventually happy, and the King was devastated, when she died at a very early age. No wonder all of them died from miscarriage or labor.
In some works of the litterature whe can the the inconveniences of having marriages with people with a great gap of age, but, curiosly, almost ever the younger is the woman, and she usually has a terrible ending, like in Anna Karenina, or La Regenta.
It is terrible what has happened to Fernando.
Good nigth.
Monica, so glad you liked it!! they are gret this is true.
Rosa "what seem to us bitter trials are sometimes blessings in disguise", so Fernando perhpas has been blessed!
Mr Clennam has a great heart but is a little weak; he has not a strong character and he has also a certain tendency to fall into depression; he has a low self-esteem, and he consider that he is in the descending stage of his life: So, he is not in a position to consider marrying a young beautiful woman. In my view, this is the main reason why he ruled out the possibility of wooing Pet; however, other motive that dissuaded him was that, he had the suspicion, from the first time that he met them in Mr Meagles’s home, that Pet was in love with Mr Gowan.
And as time went on, more Arthur realized that he had not any possibility, seeing that Mr Meagles didn’t like Mr Gowan, and that, much as he showed his displeasure with her expressions of affection to him, Pet continued showing delighted with Mr Gowan’s presence.
In consequence, Arthur adopted an attitude of resignation; therefore, whenever that Daniel Doyce, who likely suspected his friend’s feeling, talked of Mr Gowan and Miss pet’s relationship in a critical way, Mr Clennam showed his respect for Miss Pet’s decision.
Otherwise, Mr Clennam is a man with pride and he was not willing to put himself in a position of being rejected to Pet, because his relationship with her and with all the family would be affected. So, Mr Clennam’s personality and Mr Carton’s are very different, therefore Mr Clennam’s attitude with Pet can’t be similar to Mr Carton’s with Lucie.
Thank you all for your supports, but i have to say that after a terrible week suffering without understanding what had happened to me(everything was going well except "in my opinion" little arguments ussually common in couples nowadays, thus i decided to take an active part on the situation to undertake my responsability in order to fight for my lost relationship and friday night after a long conversation, face to face, we came to the conclusion that we have to take advantage of our love and be more generous and patient with the other and we have gone back to our relationship.
Now I have recovered my smile on my face and actually i am feeling stronger to achieve my prospects of future with her.
Thank you very much María for inviting me, you are so kind to me and aprecciate this gesture very much, maybe i would be honoured to meet you in a close future because i have been very long looking forward to stay and know england and London in particular.
Hello Fernando, I am very glad that you have made up things with your girlfriend, though I´m sorry for the gappies... You did mind the gap in the end... I see that that is what makes you happy as you can smile again... People seem to want to end relationships lately, so I am glad you are not one of them. Anyway, in spite of the fact that you are engaged again, I still invite you to come over..., not your girlfriend! je je I´m joking! Both of you would be most welcomed!
Thanks Carmen for your nice words... As somone said recently, "You always make me smile", I mean, blush!
I agree with Monica that the performance by Madrid Player in the Hogar Gallego was great. I think we enjoyed the first play more than the other three because we need to be very concentrated in order to understand the more the better and it requires a big effort of us. So that we are exhausted at the fouth one.
Anyway it was really fun, I wish we will have theater plays by them more often.
In my opinion, love is in itself something good, because its presence gives shine and cheer up the existence of people. But one of the problems with love is that, to its full realization, it is necessary the confluence of two people that achieve to share a similar degree of fascination. Thus, we have known Little Dorrit suffering because Mr Clennam don’t see her intense love, and Mr Clennam’s decision of repressing his urges for fear of failure; we have seen Flora´s wishes being unheeded and Tattycoram burning herself in her inner fire, while Young John is very depressed by having been rejected by Little Dorrit.
We know that people’s personality are determined by the combination, in a different degree, of different qualities that make them more or less dominant, weak, capricious, conformist, selfish, generous, depressed, self-confident...........So, people have very different ways of being, with very different levels of requirements and different capacities to withstand setbacks; and there are also a great diversity of levels and nuances of love. For all this reasons, it is very difficult that two people achieve to share a life completely happy.
In consequence, in my opinion, to reach the fullness in love is nearly a miracle, it would be like to reach the paradise on earth. Therefore it is necessary to be realist and to be willing to endure a certain degree of dissatisfaction. But there are people that are impelled to look for a state of fullness, a level of absolute fascination difficult to reach what leads them necessarily to frustration. There are selfish people that only think in themselves and that before a small contrariety get deep disappointed and frustrated. There are authoritarian people that only are happy if they control completely all the decisions that affect the couple and that consider that his or her partner has to submit absolutely. There are jealous people that see reasons of infidelity everywhere and that become her or his partner life a hell..................
So, how difficult is to find love and the necessary understanding to go through life with another person; but we must try, because living alone is worse.
Fernando,are you sure that it is good news? I wonder, so much quarrelling is the worst thing for any relationship, particularly at the beginning when you should be always glad to give in to the other one. She compets with you, this is my conclusion from one comment of yours, maybe wrong...but I doubt it, sorry, and the couple always should play in the same team.
Get a cheap ticket to London, take your smile and leave her behind, meet María and the gappies, even if you mind the gap, and think about it, jump out of the plane, with your parachute, of course, but get away and see London, practice your English and enjoy a weekend far from her, you will not be sorry to go and you will eventually be sorry not to have gone. There are thousands of women out there, find one with a nice character, I tell you that character is important is marriage.
Isidro, Clennam and Carton are so different. Arthur is weak, Sydney is strong, though he is weak with his own person he is strong in his feelings, a much more attractive personality, indeed Arthur is not attractive at all, I wonder why Amy feels for him? Because they are similar in their acquiesce and complaincency in life. A bit like Bingley and Jane.
Isidro; congrats on your very sound description dealing with the mistakes made by couples, you are ever so right!!!You have experience in the matter and also put it words, I´m going to copy this print it and ...hand it round!
Je, Je, María, I understand you perfectly, smiles are welcome always...after all Fernando "minds the gap", I am still laughing when I remember..produce such a parallel in your masters and the professor will be enchanted.
I have discovered another Japo, yesterday, I´ll pass on the information txa-tei, General Pardiñas 8, just in case you need it...
María, your description about the relationships is so accurate... From my point of view, I think that you can only achieve love when you don´t mind the gap. Otherwise, you are more concerned in the gap than if the people you meet really fit with your character, which is the most important thing at the end.
As Carmen has said in class, in a marriage, or in a relationship, we have to take into account the hobbies. If you don´t share any activity, either you becomes boring with your partner hobbies, or you don´t share anything, so the outcome is a disaster in both cases.
On the other hand we have the importance of the family, and at that point you must be pacient, and very respectfull, because you also need that your partner act in the same way with your family though he don´t share their thoughts or demeanour.
And finally Carmen spoke about money, which is a really thorny issue. The most important thing is to know what you have and what you can spend and not buy things that you can´t afford so as not to be involved in money troubles.
Regarding little Dorrit and Mr. Clennam every day I´m more sure that they are siblings, that´s why I don´t want them to fall in love with each other.
See you!
María, your description about the relationships is so accurate... From my point of view, I think that you can only achieve love when you don´t mind the gap. Otherwise, you are more concerned in the gap than if the people you meet really fit with your character, which is the most important thing at the end.
As Carmen has said in class, in a marriage, or in a relationship, we have to take into account the hobbies. If you don´t share any activity, either you becomes boring with your partner hobbies, or you don´t share anything, so the outcome is a disaster in both cases.
On the other hand we have the importance of the family, and at that point you must be pacient, and very respectfull, because you also need that your partner act in the same way with your family though he don´t share their thoughts or demeanour.
And finally Carmen spoke about money, which is a really thorny issue. The most important thing is to know what you have and what you can spend and not buy things that you can´t afford so as not to be involved in money troubles.
Regarding little Dorrit and Mr. Clennam every day I´m more sure that they are siblings, that´s why I don´t want them to fall in love with each other.
See you!
I think I will need a bit more of that to "enchant" the proffesors... But thanks, it is very much encouraging that at least one values... me!
Isidro, you are ever so right! The frustration is terrible... Do you think it is really hopeless to try to get actual happiness in marriage? I suppose you are right... But there must be something really good that makes you say it is better than being alone. I've been alone all my life and I think I am happy. As Jane Eyre, I may just be... contented...?
As to me, I certainly wouldn't mind the gap. Age is nothing but a number, and people better with age, especially, men. As long as there is admiration, understanding and fun, from both sides, and a bit of affection, the gap would not be a problem. What we have to think is whether or not we mind what others say, as it is not something socially accepted as normal. Men are branded as pedofiles and women, as "cheeky pussies"...sorry for the vulgarity.
Thanks for the info, Carmen, I love Japos...
María, you have not counted on the decay issue...it is important, to decay together is better than to see the other decay when you still have life.
Good night:
I think that all the things that you have said about the different issues are, in general, accurate. I only would say again that love is not hapiness. As Jack Kerouac said, "love is sad". And about money, I am going to say the same that the Liz Taylor's character in "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof": "When you are young, to be poor is terrible, but when you are old, it's just umbearable".
I have not realized that Mrs Gowan and Mrs Meagles are a symbol of the society, or more precisely, the hippocrisy in the society. We think a thing, we do the opposite, we are ashamed of the people who is good to us, we reject them, in an unjust way, we are unnice with the people who help us the most...and in exchange, we admire people who don't deserve to be admired, or to be put as an example of anything. They are very selfish.
We have just seen Mr Gowan and Pet's wedding. Not a happy one. Arthur has strange feelings...we realize that perhaps he was rigth when he disliked Mr Henry...Mr and Mrs Meagles are extremely sad...and we have the house full with those unsympathetic Barnacles and Stilstalkings... And Mr Meagles is proud of that! Definetevely, he can be a good man, but he is not very intelligent in my opinion.
I don´t mind the decay either. I´d rather be with the man I love for a few years, until he dies, than be forever with an idiot my age...
I know what you are thinking now...: "Are you happy with the idea of becoming someone's carer rather than lover?" Well, I think that if we are talking about a successful relationship, it is worth it. Love is not only blind, it can't count very well either!!
To read you, Mónica, is like having attended a Carmen´s lesson! Thanks for the review! Isn´t it fun??? You should do it more often, I really enjoyed reading it. Oh..., I wish I had been more able to speak English when I was at the EOI... That´s why I adored the blog, for I could write what I didn´t say...
I completely agree that both have to share hobbies! At least... one! And I also agree that one has to be careful about money. As to the family, that´s the most difficult issue... It´s very complicated, I reckon, to keep the family far apart enough for them not to muck it up...
María, In my last comment I didn’t talk of marriage but of love. As you know love can lead to marriage or not.
I think that happiness is possible in love, but with the condition that you don’t expect to achieve an state of completeness impossible. You can’t request more than the other can give you, nor expect that the other become an slave to you; if you think that love will give you an state of full happiness without ups and downs, you will be very disappointed, because human nature can’t reach this level of perfection for much time.
I agree with you that I did a great simplification when I compared the situation of being in love to the situation of being alone. I compared the optimum with the worst, but between this two ends there are different levels. In reality, most of the people are between this two extremes.
And though you say that you’ve been alone all your life and that you are happy, I don’t believe that you have lived all time alone. In my opinion, when you wrote this, you were thinking that I was talking of marriage in my comment, and you oppose marriage to be alone. So, what you want to say is that you are not married and you are happy. But the fact that you are not married doesn’t involve that you lives alone; I am sure that you have reached the level enough of love in your relationships to be happy. And I am very happy for you.
Otherwise, there are married people that live without love; and in this case they can live worse than if they were not married. In this case, in spite of being married they are alone and they are unhappy, while you are not married but you are not alone; you are happy because you are satisfied with your level of love.
María, your comment in which you say "one has to be careful about money" reminds me what we are talking about last day in class. We were talking about tidiness, dirtiness... Don´t you think that most of the times the responsability of being in charge of both (cleaning and money) is done for the same person in a couple?. Don´t you think that it is unfair? Why one of them has to be careful for the money of the other one? I don´t want someone to see my bank movements and to control them. Therefore, I don´t want to control the bank movments of the other... We are adults so as to control our money and to save it if it is required.
I think it is the same with the cleaning. There is always one in charge of it and the other (in best cases) follows the former when he/she had started the duty.
But the previous one is always the hysterical, the nervous, the fussy, the uneasy person...
Don´t you think?
Isidro, I think you mix things. Do you think that you might have married without love and be happy? I think so, if you and your partner have what you want to have, you would be really happy. I mean, if there aren´t problems of money, there is a respect to each other family (and be respected by them also), and share some hobbies (at least one, as María has said), I think you can be happier than a couple who have married for love. Because love, at the end, vanished and you only have tenderness, caring, comprehension, someone who you can talk with...
So, at the end it is better to marry with someone you are not in love, because this way you can see the reality. You now that love is blindness and when love vanished you realized that the person you have married is not at all what you had thought.
I know that it is hard to think in this way, but at last, is the reason why there are so many divorces nowadays. Peolpe usually think that love is forever and I don´t think so.
What do you think?
Feelings emotions and passions emerge in people spontaneously and sometimes they overcome them paralyzing or impelling them to act in a certain direction. Thus, for example, we fall in love unwittingly, just as we catch a disease, with the difference that there is not an antidote to love. So, love is involuntary and reach people in an unexpected way, therefore we can’t foresee its arrival nor avoid it when it comes.
We know that very intelligent people, all along history, have done crazy thing for love. So, we can’t say that, in case we were affected by the effect of a great love, we would achieve to manage it; the same way that we can’t guarantee that we will be able to overcome a serious illness. All we know about this issue comes from our personal experience that, being very limited, we can’t aim to become the foundation of a general rule. Only do we know with certainty that what works with some people doesn’t work with others; so, everyone has to find his own way, because neither there are general rules nor anyone can live the life for other.
And as to marriage, I would say that all marriages have in common a commitment of two people to live together, but the foundation of the marriages can be very different, because they can involve different ratios of love and interest. Thus, there are marriage whose foundation is only love, others in which the foundation is only interest, and there are many others in which the reason is a combination of both; moreover, I think that the initial reason to a marriage can change; thus, a marriage that began for interest can be affected afterward by love; and a marriage by love can become full of hatred. At the end, the most important thing is whether or not the marriage provides happiness, and this depends, to some extent, on the personality of people.
Love is something that comes and goes in an unpredictable way. In my view all marriage should imply a certain level of love; and when love dies, at least should have respect.
Isidro, I´m alone not because I´m not married, but because I haven´t ever fallen in love with someone for whom I would renounce my very enjoyable loneliness.
Your last post is fantastic. You put it so well... Nevertheless I don´t think that falling in love is like having the flu. I think I could have fallen in love easily many times had I wished it. So there is a controlable way of managing "against" it.
Mónica, it is very funny the conclusion you come up with: "it is better to marry someone whom you are not in love with"!
I know that romantic relationships are full of disappointments and frustration, because we want our lover to be as we would like him/her to be, which is impossible. But this happens with every relationship, not only romantic ones. Then, so that there is happiness in any relationship, there must be loyalty, support and understanding. When one of these vanishes, divorce is calling...
I´d rather be alone... and rich, so that I don´t have to choose the side of the bed or bother... cleaning and cooking anymore!
I have been thinking about the sentence that you produced yesterday in class "life is about learning to lose the innocence" and I agree with you but I believe it´s very sad but true. When you get older you learn a lot about life in general, and those experiences make you lose your innocence you had when you were a child and this is no turning back, you´ll never be as innocent as you were when you were a child; but life takes away innocent and give you wisdom, what it is good to manege in the world where you live.
A most enjoyable discussion!!!Monica raises an important issue, what makes a happy marriage, marrying someone for love or understanding? I think that in most cases to marry someone you share things with is better than to merely marry he who turns you on!! undoubtedly there has to be some love, some attraction, but this can come with sharing and living together, it is something quieter, but more effective. There was a film about this was it called the Piano?
I think you can be alone and happy, you don´t need soemone esle to make you feel happy, to blind you into thinking that you are not alone just because you are at a bar with a person, do you see what I mean?
Isidro, you explain it wonderfully in your last post.
monica.. well I somehow think that you hit the nail on the head, you have explained so well you have proved it so clearly that I agree with you, love is blind but marriage one hs to enter open-eyed.
María, I think that money is one very important source of happiness. If one is rich and unhappy, well you deserve to lose all your money, having a beautiful life, involves giving something back, what? be cheerful, positive, happy, laugh a lot, find very little fault everywhere and try to be nice with your family and everyone around you, and stop complaining because you cannot go skiing with the man you want!!!and stop pestering people!! people like that should be...vanished from Earth, don´t you think?However as most of us, who know the correct behaviour have not the money we should try to be happy under all circumstances. We have to learn to make life happy and enjoyable from what we have, not build up castles in the air through which we can be happy.
And talking about money, our friend Dorrit has come into a good fortune, and this has bettered him, we were discussing in class whether it is easier to be evrything, that is a gentleman, a good person, elegant, etc. if you have money. I think so; very much so
María and how do we become wise? by suffering, "suffering is wisdom" (john Keats)
Not only is love an important issue in a marriage, but also understanding is an important matter. It is certain than understanding can remain though love have vanished. And when understanding does not remain it is difficult that this marriage does not break up. We have talked frequently of the difficulty of living together, and this difficulty raises when you do not have the purpose of understanding and forgiving the other person. At the end the successful of a marriage is hiding in very little things as where you leave your socks when you take them off or how tidy you are at home or how you resign your hobbies, do not you think so? There are these little things which make living together difficult. On the other hand, money is a very important issue, it is undoubtedly that you bear the difficulties better when you have money. Money cannot buy happiness but can bring satisfaction.
Good afternoon:
You were talking about how much money makes you a gentelman -or lady-. It is true that it helps you very much, but is not all what you need. First, I think you need to behave properly, and this is not only to have good manners. Think about Paris Hilton, or Maradona, they have much money indeed, but they are not neither a lady nor a gentelman. I like very much a sentence which is in the film "My Fair Lady": Eliza dislikes very much Henry Higgings, but not Mr Pickering, because, she says, he makes the ladies to feel like flowergirls, while the other makes to even a flowergirl to feel like a lady. I think that to be a gentelman o lady is conected with this.
I must confess that I am a little disapointed with this last chapter. All rigth, we are told that Amy now is rich, and her family...and what? I expected we were going to know the whole story (perhaps this is told in the next chapters), or that it would be told in a more exciting way...In Jane Eyre, the situation is salved because her uncle of Madeira leaved her a lot of money, too, but I feel this is told in a more satisfactory way...well, I assume that during the nineteenth century, in novels, that was very usual...
You say that now that he is rich and free, Mr Dorrit is going to change...well, I do not see it so clearly. He says he is going to reward the people who has helped his family...but I don't see it doing that... And notice that he got asleep handing Mr Clennam's bag of money. And look what he says about Maggy...he wants to get rid of her!...because she is "hardly respectable", or something like that! Of course, Maggy is not pretty, neither intellingent, nor funny...and netiher I like her...but during many years she was the only friend of Amy! Well, I must say in adition that I have a bad feeling about this, too. Amy passes out and is sad (because she doesn't want to leave the prison, it's the only home that he has known, you see)...and I have the feeling that Tip or Mr Dorrit himself are going to take the family again to the bankrupcy.
We wil see...
In my view, the conversation between Mr Gowan and Mr Clennam in chapter XXXIV is very interesting. We see Mr Gowan’s disappointment in relation with his family which always relegated him and never did anything for him. He shows himself proud and happy of being able to cope without the help of his family. But what most caught my attention was the fact that, just after his wedding, his prevailing feeling were disappointment with his family and frustration with himself, instead of the feeling of joy before his future happiness in company of his wife.
Other thing that I consider very worrying is the fact that he is not enthusiastic with his job; thus, he shows himself as a man incapable of feeling a real esteem for his art; he is not willing to study and to devote the necessary time to his art. And before the allegation of Mr Clennam, who told him that it would be natural that he felt proud of his vocation, Mr Gowan lowered the condition of art to a commerce, and assured that art to him was a simple way to obtain money.
In my opinion, the problem of Mr Gowan is that he is a lazy, useless and not smart man; therefore his family, which has a place to all the other members of the family, has not provided one for him. Otherwise, we can imagine that he is a bad painter, hence his lack of enthusiasm and his contempt for art.
So, in my opinion, Pet is going to suffer a deep frustration and to be very unhappy in her marriage, because Mr Gowan has not the necessary good mood to give her the attentions that she used to receive of her parents.
Aah, Isidro, but Mr Gowan is not a real artist.
He is an amateur. A real artist do not think such mundane thinks.
Good nigth.
Monica, in my opinion, the question about the way of reaching a happy marriage has a difficult answer, because this is a complex issue, in which there are many factors involved. We can’t approach all aspects because we would be lost in endless digressions, but at least we must take into account the most important elements involves in it.
You say that I mix things. However, what I did was to show some of the different point of views involved in this issue. I have not tried to express my particular experience which, as whatever other particular experience, is very limited; I have attempted to introduce a little of objectivity showing that there are different aspect involved and that every aspect also have different perspectives.
Thus, we know that there is a certain asymmetry between men and women, because their way of feeling is different; and neither all women feel and react in a similar way, nor all men. Therefore the experience of a person is not useful for others; there are people that prefer to enjoy his love and to marry without thinking about whether or not it will last long, while other people decide not to marry because they fear that it will not last forever. And between married people, their personality determine, in some extent, the successful or the failure of their marriage; thus, if you are an extrovert, self-confident and optimistic person and you have an successful marriage, you can’t expect that your experience be useful to an introvert, depressive and pessimistic one. And I only have named several characteristic, but there are a wide number of possibilities. Moreover, even if we achieve to find, for example, two identical men, it would be very difficult that their partners were also identical, and therefore the experience of one of them would not be useful for the other.
So, scarcely have we analysed this issue from the point of view of the potential personalities involved in a marriage, when we understand that we can’t find a valid prescription for all cases. And this conclusion is reinforced if we expand our study and we take into account other considerations; for example, if we analyse this issue from the point of view of love, we see that there are different levels and nuances in it; so, the term love is very unambiguous and therefore when we use this word we can refer to different realities. So, from this point of view the issue is also very complex.
We saw recently in the film “The King’s speech” that George VI became king after his brother’s abdication because he didn’t want renounce the love of a woman. Knowing that many people in history have killed for much less than for becoming kings, do you imagine the greatness of this love?
Maria, do you think that, if you felt so intense a love as the one of the brother of George VI, you could reject it?
Oh, no Isidro, it is not as you say. George's brother didn't abdicate because his love to a divorced woman, but because he was a nazi. Did you imagine a nazi English king? That was the real reason, not Mrs Simpson, as it is usually said.
But I think in the rest of the things you are quite rigth.
Rosa, I put the example of King George VI’s brother because, in the moment of writing my comment, I remembered the film “The King’s speech”, but you know that there are other similar cases. So, the example chosen doesn’t affect the reasoning; I prefer not to put other example because I consider it unnecessary, taking into account that anyone can remember different examples. And there are also many cases of ordinary people that lost his patrimony and that were rejected by his original family for marrying the woman they loved.
In my view, the subject of the King’s resignation is a debate for specialists; however, all I have read about the pro-nazism as the cause of the resignation only are speculations. In my view, if the main cause of his voluntary resignation had been his ideology, his decision seems a contradiction because he could have helped more this ideology being king.
Otherwise, If he had been forced to resign for being pro-nazi, don’t you think that it would be a contradiction that he was sent to the British Military Mission in France, when the British fought against the nazis?
In my view, it is possible that his sympathy for the nazism were reinforced for being angry because he had not been allowed to marry the woman he loved, and for his wife’s influence whose ideology was pro-nazi.
Well, Isidro, I didn't realized the last thing you said. It could be quite possible. Even so, in the time in which he was going to be the King, there were many people who had to leave Europe because of the Nazis living in Great Britain, and it could be disastrous. Do you imagine a Colaborationist British king? I don't know how he was in real life, but in the film, he was a badass! Look the way in which he treats to his brother. I think that British won because he was not the king.
You could mention the example of Shah Jahan and Mumtaz Mahal, who were married and loved themselves. The love that Shah Jahan had to her wife costed him his throne, because he spent all the money of the public treasure building a tomb for his wife, the Taj Mahal. Or you could mention the history of Peter of Portugal and Doña Inés de Castro, who become queen when she was already dead.
I think that it's better do not mix love with marriage. Of course, a marriage can not work if there is not any affection between the husband and the wife. In my opinion, love is not an entirelly positive think, because it makes us to do many stupid things. And, as I already said, love is neither beautiful nor happy. Love is sadness (as Jack Kerouak said), love is passion, and passion is unreasonable. It could be pleasant sometimes, but, then, the painful things start to happen. Look what they say in The Phantom of the Opera: "The doubts, the jealousy, the uncertain, the thirst of revenge, the fear...all this is love, and love of the most delicious kind, the love that one doesn't confess to himself". And look the way in which they ended! (I am talking about the book, not the musical comedy).
Have a nice day.
I agree that it is easier to be a better person if you have money but I do not think that money can create a gentleman. In my opinion a gentleman is a person who has some qualities as good manners, he is a trustworthy, generous and unselfish person and until now Mr Dorrit has not behaved as a gentleman in many occasions. He has lived by the generosity of the people who are around him, among them his own daughter. But mainly he is worried about his position. He is so worried about position as Mrs Merdle can be, being each one of them in very different situations. But both of them behave in a proud manner. It is not an appropriate behaviour to reject people who are your friends because they have no money, as he has done with Nandy. He is ashamed of him.
The more money he has, the more ashamed he is of the people who have no money. I do not think that richness can change his attitude. Money can buy things but not change your set of values.
Yes, Beatriz, I think much as you do.
It's easier to be considered a gentelman or a lady, and behave like that, if you have money, but money is not all. That's what I think.
Well I don´t know if getting money can change the behavior of a person but I have to say that Dorrit was a man who only was able of thinking about himself and now, suddenly he thinks about of giving money to all people who have helped him in any ocasion. Perhaps he want to do something good now that he has money.Becauase he thinks that until now his behavior has been very bad wiht everybody in prison.
Isidro Your post about Gowan is very good because it is true that he seems to be dissatisfied when he should be happy, in thrills at the prospect of his new lfe, and the freedon from his debts. His character fails, then. and he doesn´t believe in himself, in living, in enjoying life, even if his father-in-law has to pay for it. He has big blemishes. He will never be happy.
As to your second about Love, well you are right in all you say, which is basically that we cannot say much, however I have to disagree with the reasons for the abdication. The Prince of Wales, David Windsor, was a great admirer of Hitler and he was irresponsible and fun loving. his love for Wallis Sympson was just an escuse to get rid of him, the English are born diplomats, they had to get rid of him and they it in a very nice way. Love stories always sell..but then comes reality and reality is Iñaqui Urdangarín.
Beatriz, understanding is important in marriage, undoubtedly, love and intellignece, but also character, character is the cause of many breakages.
rosa, I don´t think that Mr. Dorrit will change a lot, he will be always conscious of his good family and I wonder if he will be able to forget his imprinsonment, but what I do see that he is generous with the people he has been for twenty odd years with. Only that, he will go away paying, but of course he doesn´t want to take them along, who would, they are prisoners themselves.
Yes. But not with Maggy. And I want him to do the things that he says he is going to do.
I do think that money makes it easier to be good, but I do not think that all those who have money are good.
Why is it easier? For a start you have less needs and this is vital to be good, isn´t it? Then you have a better education, and education is so important!! The drawback is that money is very damaging if you are spoilt or become proud. However as I said, this is the only time I have seen Dorrit thinking abou any other person for ten minutes!!! The rest of the time he gives you his time, his precious time, provided you bring him somenting.
when one has position, beatriz, and little or no money, position is the only thing you can be proud of, thus Dorrit thinks ill of Nandy, as he is the means to remind Mr. Dorrit that he is....poor like him, and fit company, imagine what it is for him at that time, but currently it wold be much the same.
What a surprise! Mr Dorrit become a rich man! In my opinion he is going to parade best than ever, and we probably will see very increased Fanny’s boastfulness.
The first reaction of Mr Dorrit was to say to Mr Clennam that he, Pank and everybody who had collaborated would be rewarded; and he assured that he would pay all his debts. In my opinion, this is the least he must do, after having received a great fortune in an unexpectedly way, and without him having done anything to achieve it.
In my view Mr Clennam’s attitude when he said: “all people that have been -ha- well behaved toward myself and my family, shall be rewarded”, is an ethical requirement and an exigency of his role as the father of Marshalsea. He must act this way with coherence with all his life in prison; because he can’t forget that he has lived, in some extent, of the generosity of the others. So, he must play his role of father of Marshalsea for the last time, showing himself generous and exhibiting his triumph in the moment of his farewell.
However, immediately after this first fair reaction, his attitude was very childish. Thus, when Mr Clennam suggested him to show himself out of the window, he said: “I confess I could have desired....... to have made some change in my dress first, and to have bought a -hum- a watch and a chain.” And later, after having imagined his depart in triumph of the prison with all collegian in the street saying goodbye, he was so tired that he lay on the bed and when Amy was fanning him and he seemed to be falling asleep, he sat and asked if he could take a walk out of prison. Finally, after Mr Clennam telling him that he could leave in some hours, he said. “How long do you suppose, sir, that an hour is to a man who is choking for want of air?” So, his behaviour is like the one of a little boy the night of the Three King’s eve whose parent want he to sleep and he says that he has looking forward to the next day.
Hi everyone!
Now that the Dorrits have money, I wonder how they are going to behave. We have seen Mr Dorrit´s reaction, but what about Fanny and Tip?
On the whole, Mr Dorrit has shown a pinch of generosity and comprehension to some of them who had helped him, but, Tip and Fanny who are already selfish, even when they lived thanks to the charity of other people, are they going to be as one of those new riches? I think so!!
And I think that the reason why they behave in that way is related with what Carmen has said... they have no education!! They are fool, they don´t have good manners!!. So, what is going to be their behavior in Society?... And their behaviour with Amy?
And regarding Amy, is she going to change? She, who was rejected for her family because of her walking arm in arm with Nandy? But what most surprised me is that she did it without being conscious of the repercussions of her behaviour!
What do you think?
Good afternoon:
I quite agree with the last posts. I have a bad feeling about the Dorrits. Seriously, now that they have money, do you think they are going to change? So far, we have seen them behaving in a selfish and snoby way. I think that now that they have money, it'll be worse, because they are going to treat the rest of the people as they want. They now are proud and scorful with the "low" people, altough they were among them. They are going to be even more hypocrite and vane. And look the concernings of Fanny! She thinks that Amy is disgracing the family because she is still in her old dress! I think that Amy doesn't want to leave the Marshalesea because it's the only world that she knows, she was born and raised there. And they forget her! It is Mr Clennam who has to take care of her. Reallly, if she haven't been born into the prison, I would say that the Dorrits are not Amy's family.
So, in conclussion, I would say that the Dorrits were unnice, ridiculous and vane when they were poor, and unice, vane and ridiculous they are going to be now that they are rich.
Honestly, the dorrits show what they are in fortune and misfortune, but I agree with Monica, that Fanny and Tip are the worst of them all
They are, of course. And I liked them at the beggining of the story, they are vane, they are pompous, they don't do nothing (well, at least, Fanny is a dancer), they don't help with the house works, they are unice...
Hi everybody,
Carmen our teacher told me today that we have to take 5 euros in order to pay the activity about we spoke the other day in class. It is going to celebrate in April, I don´t remember the day she told me exactly.
I´ll see you in class today.
Hello everybody, wow, how many comments about so many topics, i don´t know which one to start, lol, therefore, i am going to put a new one, that we have passed over in class and we have had unfinished, what´s your opinion about what is more important whether to fall in love with somebody by physical atracction and then getting the love or by first becoming friends and as the time pass become lovers, not taking into account so much about how he or she is physically.
I draw this topic and i will reserve my opinion till reading yours, hehe.
anxiously hoping your participation good fellows.
Well...Fernando, I don't know. Seriously, I personally never have been in love with a person who was not physically atractive to me...but it was not only their looks which was appealing to me, but facts about their lives and personalities. And I think it's quite common to fall in love with a person who is very inferior to you only because you are physically atracted to him (or her). Any way, in this case, the atraction never lasts. That's my opinion.
In the literature and films we have lots of stories about people in love without involving physical atraction. We have Cyrano de Bergerac, we have Marianela, we have The Man who Laughs...I don't know if such stories could be possible at real life... I mean, you are in love with a very ugly girl, or a man who is hideously disfigured...and you don't mind, because you are blind (which is the case in Marianela and The Man who Laughs), or you don't care about how the people looks...In Marianela the story is particulary sad, because the boy, Pablo Penáguilas, who was blind, was in love with a poor, very ugly girl, because he tought she was beautiful...then, he gets the sigth and he was disgusted when he saw her, because she was very ugly, and his cousin, to whom he was going to marry, was very beautiful. It seems that only beautiful people have the rigth of loving and being loved. And they want to be loved, they have to hid themselves. Look what happen to the Phantom of the Opera...all the bad things started when she learns he is a monster. But, sometimes, even the very handsome people decide to hid themselves, therefore, the people will not love them by their beauty, but because their other qualities, by themselves. This is the case in the legend of Psyche and Cupid.
Well...Fernando, I don't know. Seriously, I personally never have been in love with a person who was not physically atractive to me...but it was not only their looks which was appealing to me, but facts about their lives and personalities. And I think it's quite common to fall in love with a person who is very inferior to you only because you are physically atracted to him (or her). Any way, in this case, the atraction never lasts. That's my opinion.
In the literature and films we have lots of stories about people in love without involving physical atraction. We have Cyrano de Bergerac, we have Marianela, we have The Man who Laughs...I don't know if such stories could be possible at real life... I mean, you are in love with a very ugly girl, or a man who is hideously disfigured...and you don't mind, because you are blind (which is the case in Marianela and The Man who Laughs), or you don't care about how the people looks...In Marianela the story is particulary sad, because the boy, Pablo Penáguilas, who was blind, was in love with a poor, very ugly girl, because he tought she was beautiful...then, he gets the sigth and he was disgusted when he saw her, because she was very ugly, and his cousin, to whom he was going to marry, was very beautiful. It seems that only beautiful people have the rigth of loving and being loved. And they want to be loved, they have to hid themselves. Look what happen to the Phantom of the Opera...all the bad things started when she learns he is a monster. But, sometimes, even the very handsome people decide to hid themselves, therefore, the people will not love them by their beauty, but because their other qualities, by themselves. This is the case in the legend of Psyche and Cupid.
The reading of John Keats’s beautiful poetry in class today reminded me the Sunday excursions of Amy with Bob when she was a little child. I imagine her glee while she picked grass and flowers to bring home.
If beauty always raises people’s spirit and has a positive influence in their mood, in the case of a little sensitive girl as Amy, living enclosed between the narrow walls of Marshalsea, the sight of a sea of green grass and flowers had certainly to produce on her the effect of enlarging her imagination, and opening the possibility of flying over the walls of the prison to overcome the sadness and the lonely of the jail.
Amy has ever faced reality and has not spared any effort; but sometimes, when sorrow and sadness fulled her life, she used her imagination to give a little of relief to her soul, thinking that perhaps redemption was possible. For example, this happened the cold damp and dark night, when she dreamed in a party in which all was warm light and beautiful and she was dancing with Mr Clennam under the stars; and whenever she was airing on the Iron Bridge to see the river and the sky and so many objects, to escape for a moment from the cramped prison.
So, perhaps her early contact with nature and beauty, in her childhood walks in the countryside, contributed to give her a noble character very different of the artificiality of her brothers. So different is Amy from Fanny and Tip that they don’t look like brothers. Don’t you think so?
Well, Isidro, in one of my last post I said what I think, which was, more less, the same that you said.
And you are rigth, Keats' poetry is fantastic.
Fernando, from my point of view it is better to fall in love with someone ugly but intelligent and with good mood, with whom you can talk and feel comprehension and share things than to a handsome man.
But, on the other hand, you have to see something on this person that attracks you. It doesn´t have to be their physical appearance that attacks you, it would be his hands, eyes, hair...
I mean, on the whole, and having being seen he for another person he could not be defined as an attactive man, but you I feel it because one of these little things.
For examle, for me, eyes are important and, has a man a beautiful eyes I would fall in love with him, even if he is not attactive at first sight because is fat, short... (well, maybe only a little, not a lot)
In brief, I think that physical attaction is important but not as much as the character.
Well, I don't know, Mónica, I have never loved a man who was not handsome for me...but I can say also that I stopped of loving a handsome man because I found out he was a jerk...It's terrible when you fall in love with a person that you unexplainaibly like...and discover he is worthless...And even so, sometimes you can't stop love him. I think that if I loved a man that were not atractive to me, he should have utterly exceptional qualities...But, because I am not a beauty, I can not expect to be corresponded by a very handsome man that I loved.
Have a nice day. Perhaps, because of that, I have never been lucky with love, perhaps I should look for other things.
I agree with Monica about the fact that is better to fall in love with someone with a nice personality that a handsome one. But it is true that we need something attractive, but not the perfection.
I want to comment how the way we see people changes when we know them, some people at the first sight are ugly or not handsome, but as you know them they become beautiful for you, not only for their appearance but also for their personality. I mean, their appearance doesn’t change, what changes is our perception.
Talking about the last chapter we comment in class I was surprised about the fact that “The Collegians were not envious”. I think that it could be a common feeling in that situation, but in the contrary they thought that this could happen to them.
I think that love involves an attraction, of course. one cannot fall in love with someone you repell, but one can fall in love with someone who is ugly because in the end you don´t see him as ugly.
men are more interested in beauty but women are interested in other things, power, security, the ability that a man has of acting correctly (little Dorrit´s case, Arthur was not even looked at by the more beautiful Pet), and in Sense and Sensibility Marion falls in love with the old General or cpatian. Women need to listen, this is the error of a man, we like what he says he is than what he actally is.
Tip adopted the appearance of a gentlemen of great fashion and elegance and, having hired a cabriolet a horse and a groom, he completed his transformation rejecting his old name and becoming Edward Dorrit Esquire. But his meanness and vulgarity as a new rich was shown clearly in the procedure used to returned to Mr Clennam the borrowed money.
Otherwise, Fanny and Mr Dorrit also showed clearly their arrogance and haughtiness in different moments. For example, both were very hard with Mr Rugg who played an important role in the discovery of the heritage; thus, Fanny told him that “he forgot whom he talked to.” In my view is a completely lack of shame and common sense that she talk this way with Mr Rugg. And Mr Dorrit’s severity with the Marshal also was excessive and out of place, taking into account that, if the Marshal had not showed him any token of appreciation to Mr Dorrit until now was because “there had not been anything particular, to congratulate him upon.”
In my view, the problem of Mr Dorrit is that he really think that he has any superiority over others only because he is the oldest inmate. He has performed his role with such a high degree of realism that he ended up believing it himself. However, we have known now that the Marshal didn’t give him any sign of consideration, and we also remember that Mr Dorrit was willing to give his daughter Amy to Young John, in exchange for his supply of tobacco, and to maintain a good relationship to Mr Chivery.
At the end, a moment before leaving Marshalsea, Mr Dorrit represented his last official act playing a game at skittles with the Collegian who was the next oldest inhabitant, that is, the one that in that moment become the new Father of Marshalsea. So, this act shows us clearly the source of the intended range of Mr Dorrit which seems to be the clearest embodiment of the absurd, which Groucho Marx expressed lucidly when he said: “starting from nothing I have come to reach the highest misery."
Well, I pretty agree with you all about physical atraction has a suntancial importance in the process of falling in love with somebody, however the personality and other mental factors will be crucial for the relationship´s development.
We don´t have to understimate beauty and his power, as Carmen well explained in class analising the romantic poem referred to the dafodills, yes Carmen, I understood the whole spirit of the poem, even if you don´t belive it, ;-) I am not only a muscle body with an empty brain but a sensitive one in a normal way, hehe.
Resuming with the last comment in class about how becoming rich affects in a different way people who have been poor before, we have a very good example described in the characters of fanny and tip, in contrast with Amy´s behaviour.
I agree, Isidro! And I am glad you have mentioned Groucho Marx, because I absolutely adore his senseless humor. Have you read Memories of a Mangy Lover? And Groucho and Me? "I never would want to join a club which accepted me as a member". Mr Dorrit is just the opposite, I think.
You mention the beauty, but you don't talk about atractive. I think it is possible to be atractive being not beautiful, or handsome. I could be with an ugly man if he is atractive to me. I never could be with a man who is fat, or dirty, or who looks cheap, if you understand me.
Have a nice day.
I´m sot sure that the contemplation of nature can be so good for anyone, as to make such a difference in character between the three Dorrits, I think that nature is a benefit always, but more important is what we have inside and which education helps to reform. It is not what we are but what we become, really, what is important. the eldest Dorrits are proud and become proud, there is no renovation, no improvement, he youngest miss dorrit is humble and remains so in the different situations of her life. we can change, though, dickens does not always show in his characters this change, but there are examples, Mr. Scrooge, Pip, and Stella, the change is achieved after a period of deep, honest sorrow, the dorrits change is for the better, therefore it is more difficult, don´t you think?
What is the best way to get rid of a person???? speak marvels of her. focus on the pain-in-the-arse of Mrs. General, through everyone speaking marvels of her, she has lived at the cost of how many?
I am not sure if women are not concern about the looks of a man, and men, are only concern about the beauty of women. Then, my family, must be the excepcion, because I care about the looks of the men, and my dad says that the worst thing in the world is a stupid woman, who is unable of doing anything or talking about anything. I think that some men prefer to have close to them intelligent and wise women, rather than beautiful women. Which is more, I think that there are some men who are scared of beautiful women, thay prefer plain women, as long as they would be aprochable.
I don't know if the way that Mr Dorrit uses to get rid of Mrs General is the best, but I must confess that I have used it sometimes...and I think that not always it works.
Until now, Mr Dorrit has been a poor man, in the most wide sense of the sentence. A man full of arrogance; a proud appearance without any vestige of a real inner substance; a magician that has been able to create a fiction to obtain advantage of his hard reality; a man who exploit the positive aspects of the reality from the point of view of his exclusive interest, ignoring or pretending to ignore all unfavorable prospects. Thus, he has had the ability of putting himself in the center of his small world, disguising his selfishness of a theatrical ritual with the clear target of living at the expense of others. So, he belongs to a class of people that has always existed and will always exist; people that never have done anything for the others, but they consider to be worthy of respect and attentions only because they pretend to have the secret of the existence; people whose only merit consists in representing accurately the ceremonial of their phantasmagoria.
Mr Dorrit has developed all necessary tricks to maintain the enchantment. He has always adopted the pose more convenient and even has shed crocodile tears whenever he has considered it necessary; he has shown himself strong to Tip when he was impolite and rude with Mr Clennam, who had been generous with him; and he also, in other moment, had declared that Mr Clennam was not a legal fellow when he thought that he was not generous enough; he was strong before his brother and demanded him to show strength, and a moment later he performed the role of a weak and miserable man before Amy and she had to comfort him standing beside his bed all night.
In short, Mr Dorrit is in itself an unsurpassed model of hypocrisy selfish and artificiality, and Funny and Tip are two worthy representative of the same model; however, Amy is, miraculously, a genuine sample of naturalness, common sense and humility.
Crocodile tears, Isidro, I thougth just the same when I read the scene between Mr Dorrit and Amy.
Have a nice weekend.
Have you noticed that Little Dorrit thinks in chapter 4 that her friends cannot do without her? Papa coming through? however I think that there is a big difference, which?
In my last comment: …...”the Marshal had not showed him any token of appreciation until now”.... Obviously, it is a redundancy to add “to Mr Dorrit” after having said “to him “.
“The one that in in that moment becomeS”
Amy fell fainted on the floor of her room, when she was going to change her dress, a moment before leaving Marshalsea for ever. It is easy to imagine that Amy’s emotion had to be more intense than the one of her brother’s because she was the most attached to the place; otherwise, perhaps the fatigue would be other factor that could explain her faintness, because I think that she would be the only responsible of doing anything that should be done, as to select and to collect the objects that it worth preserving. Meanwhile, her brothers would be thinking exclusively in themselves, as ever; because had her brother always let her do all the work and the responsibilities of the home, more in this moment in which Fanny and Tip had settled in the best hotel of the neighbourhood of Marshalsea completely dedicated to the task of showing their magnificence.
Fanny got very angry, vexed and ashamed seeing Amy in her ugly old and shabby dress, and she considered her coming this way something disgraceful and infamous. In my opinion, much as Amy were the support of the whole family until now, she is going to be underestimated because she will not be needed from now on. Don’t you think so?
And what do you think of the fact that Mr Clennam were the first who noticed the absence of Amy? I don’t know how to describe Mr Clennam’s feeling for Amy, but he feels something special for her, therefore he can stop paying attention to her. In my opinion, if it is not love, it is something very alike. Don’t you think so?
In chapter I of the second book, we see Mr Dorrit’s family crossing the Alps by the pass of Great Saint Bernard in vintage time. I enjoyed the magnificent description of the landscape, making us feel the changes of it as they were climbing the mounting; and I also found very funny the dialogues between the travelers hosted on the convent.
Otherwise, I got very surprised of seeing Mr Rigaud there hovering like a bird of ill omen between the other passengers; his presence introduces a certain uncertainty because it seems that nobody knows him, but he knows the others; so, he can take advantage of the situation to find the victim he is looking for. He has shown some interest in Amy, but she seems to be an special sense to detect evil, and we have seen that she was annoyed by his mere presence near her; therefore he will have to change the target.
Other interesting coincidence is the encounter between Mrs Gowan and Amy, who carried a letter from Mr Clennam in which he presented her before Mrs Gowan as a good friend. Finally, I want highlight Mrs Gowan’s loneliness and lack of enthusiasm; undoubtedly she is not happy because she miss her family; she told Amy that he remembered the times when she traveled with his parent and she was happy.
In this direction you have an interested curiosity about the San Bernardos’ dog:
http://www.myswitzerland.com/es/gran-san-bernardo-perros-y-un-puerto-de-montana.html
Carmen as you said there is a great difference in the way Mr Dorrit thinks about how the people in prison will be without him and Little Dorrit’s thoughts. Mr Dorrit is very proud and he thinks that he is very important in the prison, even though he is only a symbolic figure; and that the things are going to go wrong from his departure. However, Little Dorrit misses her friends in the prison, and she wants they would be well. She doesn’t care about their social position she appreciates them sincerely.
Mr Dorrit thinks that he has found in Mrs General the ideal persona to complete the education of his daughters, according with the rules of the good society. He is delighted with her, because she fits perfectly to his idea of giving the utmost importance to good manner and to keep up appearances.
Mr Dorrit’s main concern is to erase all traces of his past which he considers unworthy; The most important thing to Mr Dorrit is not to form the character, to cultivate virtue and essential values or to develop the good sense, but to achieve a personal look according to the new status. So, there is a full coincidence between Mr Dorrit goal and Mrs General qualities, because her speciality is to provide varnish everywhere, to mask the reality so that cracks are not visible. The most important thing for both of them is to develop the art of acting to achieve a good performance; so, varnish, varnish, and more varnish.... Varnish in the voice, varnish in the touch and atmosphere, varnish in gestures, dresses and hairstyle,......varnish....varnish
Mrs General accepted the responsibility with the condition of “perfect equality as a companion, protector, Mentor and friend.” However, I think that she is going to have some difficulty to do her task, because I don’t think that Fanny could accept her guidance willingly.
Knowing Fanny’s proud and her resolution, showed in her meeting with Mrs Merdle in presence of Amy, I predict that she has the battle lost. Thus, we have seen in chapter I that when Mrs General recommended the two sister “to shade their faces from the hot wood, after exposure to the mountain air and snow”, Amy immediately followed the advice while Fanny said that she was very comfortable and that she preferred remaining as she was; so, Mrs General will have to restrain her educative action to Amy, if she don’t want to create a conflict.
Yes, Isidro, I agree with you in all the things you have said regarding Mrs General.
I have commented something about the future behavior of Fanny and Tip, because they are not going to mix well and to behave well in society, and it seems that Mr Dorrit has thought the same. To avoid problems in society he decided to look for help, which he found in Mrs. General. So, finally, he is not as fool as he seemed before... He knows what he wants and he makes what he has to make to get it, and this is a behaviour related with wise people, not with the fool ones (at least in my opinion).
But, on the other hand, we have Tip, who is completely a fool, even when he has someone to teach him... He wants to show that he is a gentelman but, instead of that, he is showing that he is the foolest person in the world...
Have I to speak about Amy, I would like to remark the sadness she shows us for her "new life". She is not happy at all. She reminds me, on the one hand to this children who have to leave their city because of their parent´s job and go to another one, leaving all the friends and starting to live in a new city with nothing to do at all, and with a feeling of completely loneliness; and, on the other hands, my grandmother, who lose her husband two years ago. She was used to take care of him all the day, and after having lost him, she feels that she has nothing to do, she says that she has no reason to live, so she prefers to die.
I have tried to say that Amy now has no friends and no things to do and no one to cares, so what she was used to do disappeared so, her sensation is that she is useless. And this feeling reminds me these people that win the lottery, have a lot of money and they keep working, because they need to notice that they are useful.
What would do you do if you win the lottery? Will you stop working? I don´t think so!!!
Well, Isidro and Mónica, I couldn't have said it better. But also, I was wondering why all people around Amy (her father, siblings, Mrs General...)disaproves her behaviour. I mean, I don't like them...but I think you can't go through the life all the time like Amy does... like a mourning willow...whining and pining...Don't you think?
Carmen, Rosa, Mónica,..... yours interesting comment suggest me answers in different direction, but I can’t write all I would like. In my view, one of the most interesting things of reading and commenting together a novel is that we can enrich our viewpoint with other interesting views. I think that the ideal comment would be the one that included all possible perspectives; but it is an impossible target because the number of visions are indefinite; therefore we would discover new aspects if we should read the same novel again and again. One of the advantages of the blog is that it permits us to see different views simultaneously.
Otherwise, much of my comment have been induced by the comment of others. Moreover, in many occasions, other comment have oblige me to reread some passages to verify that the opinion of others casted a new light on the text hat made me see aspects that I had not seen before.
Finally, as our first interest in participating in the blog is to improve our capacity of writing in English, I am glad to have a strong motivation with yours comments, because without your encouragement I would not write as much as I write. This would be so boring!!!!
So, thank you very much.
Good morning:
In my opinion, Amy is a bit like her father, making herself necesary to the others.
The Dorrits behaviour is utterly negative. They are not only proud and stupid, but ingrate: they don't know to have nothing to do, now that they are rich, with the people who helped them when they were nobody (because they were nobody, in spite of all Mr Dorrit's fancies). They got rid off Maggie, they don't want to
Mr Clennam...The only who is sensible, and who has not change, is, with Amy, the Uncle Frederick, who seemed to be the fooler. Cervantes, who was very clever, already talked about this: To do good things to bad people is like to pour water into the sea. Ingratitude is the daughter of pride (Hacer bien a villanos es como echar agua a la mar: la ingratitud es hija de la soberbia).
Have a nice day.
Little Dorrit is sad because she doesn’t adapt to her new situation. When she was in Marshalsea, she had to work hard, but she was in the center of his little world; she felt herself indispensable and she was really indispensable. She was indispensable to Maggy and to her father and, in a certain way, to Tip too; she deployed generosity and affection to everybody and she also received affection and esteem of everybody, excepting Fanny’s momentary reproaches; and even Mrs Clennam had been affectionate with her. However, she now feels herself useless, isolated, excluded and undervalued.
So, Amy doesn’t feel comfortable in this new world, where all is artificiality. She has not a gift to the theater; she shows herself with her naked heart without masking her real feeling, and therefore she is so vulnerable. Otherwise, she suffers specially for her father’s disaffection, because she had ever been very close to him, but he now has began to cover himself with a cloak of varnish that reject all possibility of any affective approach. In consequence, Amy’s loneliness is absolute; she realises that his father doesn’t need her and she even has lost the possibility of venting her own grief with anyone because, in the new circumstances, she doesn’t see people around her but masks; in the new worls, all is exteriority, superficiality, appearance, showmanship, unreality; that is, she lives now in a world in which there is no room for feelings which are masked behind a thick layer of impassable varnish.
At the end, it seems that the only tie with the old world, and her only possibility of finding a little of relief is through her epistolary relationship with Mr Clennam. But I doubt that this way she achieves any comfort, taking into account that he will not be able to answer her letters, because she asked him not to write her because, as we know, her father has condemned any relationship with him.
So, little Dorrit always is alone in the balcony of her own room under a sky of shining stars that doesn’t invite her to dance. Amy’s current situation reminds me Young John’s condition of sufferer without hope. I trust that both of them can recover the joy of living; but we must give them some time; meanwhile, we will see Amy- as Rosa said in a very nice way- as a mourning willow in her balcony.
well, I have to say first of all that reading all your comments is a pleasure for me, indeed. It makes the novel a lot more intersting as we can share our different points of view and since people focus on different things and even if we focus on the same we have different perspectives, it is really worthwhile to come here and exchange notes.
isidro, I have liked your analysis of Dorrit very much, little esle can be added, it is very accurately done.
Monica, it is true that Little Dorrit must be depressed, like your Grandmother, as she has lost her role, she cannot look after her father or brother and sister anymore.
Rosa, what a good quote from cervantes¨!!I had never thought that ingratitude was the daughter of pride, and how true it is!!
I agree with you Isisdro when you say that little dorrit´s position is one of real loneliness and unhappiness, she is crossed out from any realtionship with her only friends, she cannot contact them or ever see them again.This is indeed a cause of suffering for anone but in her position, unable to fit with anyone, what can she expect from her new life, the "calamities" of her new world have indeed proved to be of a worse kind than her previous ones...
“in many occasions, other comment have obligeD me to reread some passages to verify that the opinion of others casted a new light on the text hat made me see aspects that I had not seen before.”.....
Poor Amy! Nobody understand her. Only some weeks has passed and everyone in the family is anxious because she has not adapted yet to the new lifestyle required by their new social position.
In chapter III, Edward complains to Amy that she continues with her old habits of helping people; he says that it looks as if she had been nursing Mrs Gowan; moreover, he asked her not to call him Tip. Amy tried to justify herself, but Fanny supported Edward, insisting in the necessity of her forgetting her old manners, and talked to her contemptuously, calling her “little thing”. And, if this were not enough, Mr Dorrit insisted in the same idea and asked Amy to break completely with the past, being specially clear in his reject of establishing any relationship with Mr Clennam.
Mr Dorrit is so interested in erasing his poor past, and in showing his family’s splendor that, in chapter V, he insists before Amy in the necessity of correcting her manners; but, in my opinion, he was too hard with her. First of all, I think that he should not have talked to Amy before Mrs General, because this was an added humiliation to her; moreover, he was too much insistent in showing her his annoyance, using terms more and more hard. Thus, he said that she surprised him, that he disappointed him, that she embarrassed him very much; and when Mrs General had gone, he said to her: “you-ha- habitually hurt me”. And he finished wishing her to be ignorant of everything that is not “perfectly proper placid and pleasant”, echoing Mrs General rule.....”papa, potatoes, poultry, prunes and prism.”
After this strong reprimand, Amy got completely overwhelmed and desolated and she didn’t said anything; she only touched his father’s arm with her trembling hand, while her father continued with his long speech in which he told her that he had suffered very much and that he had managed to give his family a respected position, and bla,... bla... bla,.....
Amy could have said something in his favour; but she only continued with her tender and quiet touch and “in her dejected figure there was no blame- nothing but love.”
He looked down at her, but as her head was drooped he could not see her face. And he began to whimper declaring that he was a poor ruin and a poor wretch in the midst of his wealth. However, he had said a moment before that he wished her to be ignorant of everything that is not “perfectly proper placid and pleasant.” It is not the height of contradiction?
What a magnificent performance of Mr Dorrit’s new masquerade!!!!
Hooray! Bravo! Congratulations!
Good morning!!
I´m very astonish with Mr Dorrit´s demenaour with Little Dorrit. He is blackmailing her emotionaly, and saying her that she used to be his favorit... Is it not the most horrible punishment a daughter could receive from his father? She had realised that her father affection has decreased, but confirm her suspicions, it´s very tough, don´t you think? She, who has been so linked to her father during all the time they were in the prison...
But I want to remark that not only does Amy act in a way that is not proper of their new situation, but, what about Fanny? Is it right to be obsessed with get into society? Don´t you think that if you don´t behave well in society you can be rejected, while, if you don´t mix in society, as Amy does? And what do you think of Tip´s behaviour?
I´ll continue later...
Yes. Both Mr Dorrit and Fanny are emotional manipulatives: they start to cry and to pose as very sad only to make the other people (especially Amy, who is very manipulable) to feel bad and do what they want them to do. We already know Fanny's great lines "I'd wish I were dead...I always have loved Amy, I didn't mean...." yak, yak, yak, just speak for the sake of speaking. She is not sorry, because she does it again, and again. Had she been repented, she wouldn't do it more.
I am ill, so I don't know if I am going to class this afternoon.
Amy is not identified with her new life neither is she identified with her family’s attitude towards Society. For this reason, she is being misunderstood by her family.
Mr Dorrit’s purpose is that Amy improve her education and her manners, but he is not aware about Amy’s feelings. He is only worried about forgetting his past life in prison and all the relationships he had there as soon as possible. Not only has he broken his relationship but also he wants to forget their names. Thinking that they are not appropriated in this new situation, he does not want to keep in touch with them.
How can you be so proud that you are not grateful to somebody who has taken care of you, who has tried to change your fate and your chance? But for Mr Clenam’s help, the Dorrit’s family would have not left the prison.
On the other hand, the most painful thing for Amy is to see her father’s change towards her. Before becoming rich she was his favourite child – as he says- but now he is very hurt by her demeanour. However I am astonished at Amy’s countenance. She does not show signs of emotion when she is being humiliated by her own father, she only tells that she is going to try to improve her behaviour. How can he be so unfair with his friends and with his own daughter?
I share the feeling of Isidro that everything is appearance in the new world and, I link it with the description of Amy when she says that, for her, everything is unreal. I mean, as Tip, Fanny and Mr Dorrit, some people that "bolt from the blue" on society change their usual behavior, so you can´t really know them. And it would be another reason for Amy not to want to introduce herself into society.
But, we can see a crack in her "defensive wall" when she met Mrs Gowan, because, bringing her to society, she wants to know her. I think thats why she knows some good things of her and she already has information about her by means of Mr. Clenam, and it gives her trustfulness.
But, what do you think of Mrs. General and the reaction of Fanny? Don´t you think that the things she teaches them are (on its most part) useless? (very funny, though...) And it is also remarkable the answer of Amy of the piece of advice that Mrs General made to her. I have the impression that Fanny doesn´t want to admit Mrs General corrections because if she does it, it looks as if she lose power, and the way in which Fanny behaves shows that she has the power of accept or reject their advice (most of them are accepted but in any other way little different from the original) So, does she want to show that she is perfect and she doesn´t need help to get a social position? As I have said before, I think that she need a lot of help...
Good day!!
I agree with you,but in my opinion the problem of L.D could be that she misses Mr.Clenan and his advice and on the other hand she feels that anyone needs her,even her father, who was her main attraction,now doesn't request anythig from her.All change brings a crisis.Although her father's manners to refer to Amy are wrong,He thinks she should change and live up to his expectactions
Do you think that a person can begin from zero, as Mr Dorrit pretends to do? In my view it is not possible; you can make a simulation before the others, but it will be always a forgery before yourself.
We know that the past is an important part of us, because the present is built upon the past. And although life implies change and our personality is enriched continuously with new experiences, old experiences will remain always in us as a part of our being. Therefore we can not break completely with the past and to begin from zero; we must learn to accept our contradictions and to admit that we are not perfect.
In my view, Mr Dorrit is a weak person; we have seen him sunken several times, and although he seems to experience now a certain euphoria, he will not be able to bear the required effort to make of his life a farce for a long time. So, I would not be surprised if he suffer an important mental disorder as a consequence of the denial of a part of his personality. Don’t you see in Mr Dorrit’s megalomania the first symptoms of an incipient madness? Don’t you see that Mr Dorrit is already being a victim of his own phantasmagoria?
So obsessed is Mr Dorrit with the concealment of his past that he is overwhelmed by the small chance that his charade be discovered. Thus, do you remember the dialogue between Mr Dorrit and the host of the convent in the Pass of the Great Saint Bernard? Do you remember the shock suffered by Mr Dorret when the host said:
“Monsieur was not used to confinement.......Monsieur could not easily place himself in the position of a person who had no the choice to choose........Monsieur could not realize...how the mind accommodated itself...to the force of necessity”
Mr Dorrit got shocked and said: “It is true....you are quite accurate. I have no daubt. We will say no more”
We also have seen him collapsing and bursting into tears before Amy; and to be struck dumb after his brother’s speech. So, Mr Dorrit’s weakness is evident, and if he persists in his attempt to escape reality and to realize his fantasy, his mind will be affected, and he will lose the sense of reality. And we use to say of that kind of people that they are gone, because, being trapped in their own fantasy, they don’t perceive reality.
Well I thing that in real life everything is different. When you want to forguet the past becasuse the past don´t like you, you struggle to forguet everything. We all know that we learn from the past and we build the future with the help of our past, but when the past has been very bad we tray to put out from our minds with all our strength, as if we were born again and I believe that it is what Mr. Dorrit want, that his last disappear from his life forever.
I like the way that Little Dorrit
open her heart to Arthur in her letter, because she is able to say all she wants, without worry about anything.
I agree with you. It is very difficult to erase your past and pretend that the things have been always as they are now. Mr Dorrit believes that, perhaps because that now that he has money, he thinks he can buy everything with it. Even the respect of the people. But you can't get the love or the respect of the people only with money, the only way in which you can win the hearts of the people is, in my opinion, with good deeds. And he has done none.
Such is Mr Dorrit’s nonsense and blindness, and so obvious is the scorn of Fanny and Edward to Amy, that Mr Friederick Dorrit draws strength of his natural weakness to express with unusual forcefulness and soundness his most energetic protest against what he considered to be a great injustice.
Mr Frederick speech is a cry against ingratitude, against the attempt to underestimate and to hurt the person that has sacrificed herself for all them; and he was specially hard with Fanny because, us we know very well, she has always taken every opportunity to show Amy her disdain.
In my view, all the other members of the family knew that Mr Frederick was right, therefore neither William Dorrit nor Edward or Fanny could say anything to contradict his words. And Mr Frederick left the room with his ordinary shuffling steps, but with his head very high full of dignity, having shown that all attempt to distort reality is a nonsense and a great injustice.
Poor Fanny!, her uncle removed her mask and, having been discovered her real face, she got angry, and sad; and her tears are the expression of her frustration before the impossibility of contradicting Mr Frederick accusations. Poor Fanny! When her uncle awoke her of her fantastic dream she could not endure the vision of her real image. Poor Fanny! The echo of this words: “For shame, you false girl, for shame!”, will perturb Fanny’s mind for a long time.
And William Dorrit Edward and Fanny’s pact of silence is the clearest expression of their bad conscience, and at the same time, it express their willing of continuing their fiction.
Money does not bring happiness though it can help. Now that Dorrit’s family is rich we see that they are divided. Frederik cannot bear his family’s attitude towards Amy and towards society. I think that he has many things in common with Amy; he does not like this new life where everybody is worried about being in Society and about with whom it is or not appropriated you to be seen.
Furthermore, he mentions the past “who have known what we have known, and have seen what we have seen”. People cannot forget their past and despite Mr Dorrit and his son and his elder sister try to do it, Amy and her uncle cannot do it. They can build a new life but without forgetting where they come from and without forgetting the old and true friends. It is not a good thing and I think that they will not get rid of the fact that Mr Dorrit has been living in prison for many years.
If Willian Dorrit were wise he should be more worried about his family’s feelings than for being in society. It is very hard how he takes account of Mrs General’s opinion about his daughter without having spoken to Amy before.
Very interesting posts from all of you, particularly yours, Isidro and Monica´s. I think that Fanny doesn´t want to listen to Ms. General´s advice because she is proud and thinks that she is better than her, as Ms. General in maintained, though with dignity.
I do not think that any person can start afresh...hiding things from others, it is impossible, you carry that burden, that "fardel" with you until you cannot bear it any more or you have forgiven yourself and then you are capable of confessing it to others, priest psychiatrist or friend.
Isidro I totally agree with you when you say that Fanny and Mr. Dorrit don´t want to talk about it. It is always for people who do not wnat to change to say, "vamos a pasar pagina" than saying "I am sorry I was wrong". Lately I have a dispute which is basically about this, and someone wants to act like mr.Dorrit, but I won´t have it, no.
Good nigth:
Money can open you the doors of the people, but can open their hearts for you? Now that he is rich, Mr Dorrit can go with important people, like counts and dukes, who open him their halls and palaces, because he is rich, but, do they apreciate him? Which is more, would they let him to go into their houses if they knew that he has been in prison? If we think that, we could understand better his position and his insistence in erase his former life, but, even so, he could have chosen other people to socialize with, matching more acurately with his real rank. Or he could do something useful with his money, to set a business, for example.
Mr Gowan is a curious fellow; he is a frustrated man, because his family has relegated him whereby he is forced to lead a life that is not the one that he considers belongs to him.
He has the mentality of the Old Regime; thus, he thinks that a man is born with a social position; but in his case, his family has been mean to him; so, he displays his poverty as an affront to the Barnacles. So, his family is guilty of having him in a regrettable situation for not giving him his due.
Had not Mr Gowan had this old mentality, he would have intended to do something in life, because the singularity of the new era is that the status is something that a man can achieve in life; that is, a person whose status is not high by birth can achieve a high status using his intelligence or his skill in the workshop or in the market. But Mr Gowan doesn’t intend to do something seriously to achieve position, because he considers that he already has a high status by birth, though he is temporarily a victim of his family. So, Mr Gowan walks around the world exhibiting his familiar aura, knowing that others will take charge of his debts.
In consequence, in spite of having been excluded by his family, Mr Gowan is a genuine representative of the Circumlocution Office, because he is a master using the language to contour reality without getting anywhere; he is a mere form without substance; he is pure theatrically.
Pet and Amy have a lot of things in common. They are very sensitive, so they become friends since they have met. Both of them are humble and they are not worried about being in society, furthermore they are happy with their families and do not need any more, they miss their families. Both of them are aware of Mr Clenam’s goodness. But currently they are not happy. No sooner has Pet got married Mr Gowan than she has to accept Mr Blandois’ presence next to her husband though she does not like him.
Being both of them –Pet and Amy- so sensitive they have noticed there is something wrong about Mr Blandois. They see that he has not good feelings and they are afraid of him. Not only are they annoyed with Mr Blandois’ presence but also the dog cannot stop barking at his presence.
On the other hand, Pet cannot be happy with a man who thinks that he has a better position than his wife but whom has paid all his debts. In all likelihood Mr Gowan has decided to marry Pet in order to settle his debts so he must not be so unfair. I am afraid of Pet not being happy with this marriage.
Following the central idea of my previous comment, Mr Gowan’s art is not something serious to him, but only a tantrum or a pastime; the painting is only the way to show his eccentricity; the painting is like an accusation or an insult against his own family. He knows that he is a bad painter and he anticipates criticism decrying the works of art in general. What he really is, his own substance, is to be a Barnacle, that is all; everything else is pure exteriority, that is, something that is added to him but that really does not belong to him. Therefore he can despise art but, although he is disappointed with her, he can’t despise his family.
I found very funny the passage in which Mr Gowan asked Blandois not to stir so that the Dorrit could appreciate the original of the daub; don’t you consider it fantastic that Mr Gowan describes different possibilities that the contemplation of the original suggests?
Blandois could be a good model to represent a bravo waiting for his prey, a distinguished noble waiting to save his country.......whatever you think he looks most like!” It is not funny? But unfortunately, the possibilities imagined will not take reality in the painting!
Reading this passage, I remembered the one of “Emma”, in which Emma and Mr Elton talked to each other while Emma was painting Harriet’s portrait. Do you remember the misunderstanding?
Mr Gowan shows himself as someone who is ahead of good and evil. He has not the conscience of being guilty of anything, because he has a favorable explanation to everything. Thus, he is poor and even flaunts his poverty, making his family responsible of his situation; this way, at the end, he achieved spread the idea that he is a Barnacle and that he is worthy of the respect corresponding to this family. And the same thin occurs with his job; he is a bad painter, but he is not really a painter; he is a Barnacle that paints only because he has nothing better to do.
And, what could we say of his marriage? Perhaps it is true that he loves his wife, but his love is a dull feeling, a feeling tinged with the disappointment and the bitterness that clouds all his life. Therefore, people think that Mrs Gowan has been the great benefited with her marriage to a member of a family of a higher rank.
However, a sensible woman as Amy perceives clearly that Mr Gowan’s superficial feeling is unsatisfactory for Minny, whose melancholy is the consequence of her disenchantment.
Beatriz, I think like you. In my opinion, Amy has an special sensitivity to see good and evil in people; and, in my opinion, it is because while other people are interested in the appearance, she is able to see inside people. I would have said the same of Pet, if she had seen clearly Mr Gowan’s inner before her marriage.
Yes, Beatriz, you are right. I hadn't thought in the likeliness between Amy and Pet, but it is a very interesting comparation. I like both of them. I think they are the most reliable characters in the novel.
In the last chapter we saw Fanny's future husband. They were seen in public events together and, as we spoke one day in class, at those times (in the same way as nowadays in some places, as vilagues) when you start to flirt with anyone and it is known, at last, you have to marry.
But what I've found funny in the chapter is Sparkler's attitude towards Fanny's demenaour with other men. At first, he tought that he would have to compete with other men for his beloved woman, but when he went out arm in arm with her, he only thought that he was the winner and thought triumphantly of himself, not being concious that Fanny did it in order to get exactly that result.
Related Tip and Fanny's attitude, I want to comment that this is very useful, even nowadays to get the love of the one you love. We have seen it in Jane Eyre, where Mr Rochester did it, obtaining a stronger love from Jane.
I´m sorry. I wanted to say Sparkler and Fanny´s attitude
We see Funny keeping a little the forms with Amy after her uncle’s words; instead of saying her “little fool”, she says “how slow you are”; but she can not help but keep making derogatory gestures and using an inappropriate tone when she addresses her. The truth is that Funny is much more sharp that her sister to plan love strategies.
In my view, we must recognize that Funny is a master in detecting second intentions and in deploying the techniques of the dissimulation and the enchantment. She is delighted performing her new role of great lady, realizing a dream that she never could have imagined that it would become a reality.
Fanny and Amy seem to belong to two different worlds; Amy has a clean and naive look and her mind is not accustomed to counterfeiting, dissimulation and trickery; while, Fanny moves like a fish in water in this new fantastic world, because she conceive life as a magnificent play in which she plays the main role.
There is not anything more important to Fanny that her own performance, because to her the world is only representation, appearance, superficiality; so, in this conception of life the most important thing is to achieve the appropriate appearance in every moment.
And perhaps Venice be the ideal place to develop this conception of the world as an eternal dance of masks, that is, as a permanent carnival. A world where all is reduced to will and representation as Schopenhauer would say.
It is amazing that while Amy was doing the best to have good manners, she was reproached by her father. Although Amy has done her best to be a good daughter she is reproached by her father in front of Mrs. General. After having considered her father’s reproaches Amy has no choice but to obey Mrs General’s advice or to be despised by her own father.
On the other hand, I would like to point out that neither Mr Blandois nor Mr gowan are kind persons for me. I think that both of them have no honourable intentions.
since Mr Blandois appeared in the novel we did not like him. And we are bound to know why he is such a bad person, as we intuit. There must be something strange in his look or in his countenance. Even Mr Clenam does not like him when he meets him at his mother’s house. It makes me think about many persons that we meet and we don not know why but we realize that they have not a good heart or there is something wrong about them. Do not you think that goodness and badness can be seen with the naked eye? They are not imperceptible
I like very much the passage in which Fanny and little Dorrit return home after having paid a visit to Mr and Mrs Gowan. It seems to me very amusing Fanny’s deployment of her tricks before her admirer. So overacting was Fanny’s attitude that, in spite of being accustomed at her natural exhibitionism, Amy was very surprised of her striking display, and immediately began to look for the cause that provoked her reaction.
Fanny is delighted of having the center of Sparkler’s attention; and although she talks of him as an idiot and a simpleton, she is enchanted with his infatuation, therefore she lowered the window and moved herself coquettishly using her Spanish fan to draw attention by all possible means.
Fanny’s pretension is to catch Mr Sparkler in her web, as the spider its victim; she will intend to make a slave of him, and she will enjoy managing him as if he were a marionette. Thus, when they arrived home and they met him at the door of their house after landing, she pretended not to know him, until he recalled her their meeting in Martigny. Both of them tactically adopted the hypocritical attitude of forgetting their previous encounters, and Mrs Gowan adopted the same attitude; so, they all are predisposed to understand each other; because the mother would achieve to dump his son on Fanny, Sparkler would get his dream toy, and Fanny would reach the seventh heaven.
So, much as Fanny pretend not to have a real interest in Mr Sparkler, I think that she would be delighted to marry him in order to exhibit herself before Mrs Merdle and to talk in equals terms to her; and also to enter in the area of influence of the great Mr Merdle, because this way she could even return triumphantly to London having erasing the stigma of her past life. Don’t you imagine her apotheosis entering in London arm-in-arm with the first representative of Society? I do.
rosa, "what´s more" and not "which is more", I hardly think that Mr. Dorrit would be accepted would it be known that he had been living in prison.
Isidro, Mr. Gowan is proud and resentful, a bad combination, but he is also intelligent and liable to goodness, he likes it, he marries Pet because she is beautiful, and has money to pay for his debts and his life, but he is not very much interested in mixing with his wife, I think him cold-blooded
Beatriz, I have answered you above, I will add that Gowan¨s nature is not a good one, he is the sort of person ever to be disatisfied, con´t you think?
the previous ANONIMO is me!! Whatever did I do?
Isidro I´ve really liked your analysis of the two sisters. Fanny is clever and Amy is more foolish, why is it that the sly are always associated with evil and the sillier with goodness?
yes, Isidro I remeber the painting scene in Emma, gorgeous.
Fanny is delighted with Mr Sparkler’s infatuation and the more he shows his love to her the more happy she becomes. But she wants to make him suffer; she knows that he is dying for a glimpse of her, and she pretends not to notice his presence; however, from time to time she gives him a little of honey to maintain him bewitched.
When he tumbled after the little crash of the gondolas, he got up immediately and had desired that she had not seen him in this ridiculous situation, but she asked him if he was hurt, making him see on the one hand that she had seen his fall and on the other hand that she wished him to be well.
And at he Opera, Mr Sparkler suffered very much seeing Fanny talking with other people; looking at other boxes asking for the identity of other people, and exhibiting herself before everybody, but he got happy when at the end she showed him some friendly gestures that made him very happy.
So, we are seeing Fanny deploying her powers with great intelligence; so, Mr Sparkler has not the slightest possibility of escaping from her influence. Otherwise, it seems that Edward and Mr Sparkler have become friends, and Edward keeps his sister informed of Mr Sparkler’s feeling and intentions; therefore Fanny said to Amy that, had she wanted to be informed about anything related with Sparkler, she could talk to Edward.
I think that Isidro's analysis about the two sisters is quite interesting. Fanny wants to marry Mr Sparkle. Is it because he is rich, or well conected? Is it because she is in love with him? No. I am sure it is because she wants to take revenge of his mother. Such marriage would be something dismaying to Mr Merdles, and, therefor, she wants to do it. Do you think is she going to have success? I am not sure. Perhaps Mr Sparkle is willing to marry her, but he couldn't do it without his parent's permission, and I think they are not willing to provide it. Perhaps Mr Dorrit, knowing what is going on, would encourage that marriage, because it would be beneficial for the family's position.
The Gowans are not happy. Mr Gowan is not accepted by his family, neither does Pet. They are still owing money, and, who is going to pay the debts? Again, Pet's father. And they are wainting a baby, and it seems that Henry is frequenting bad companies... And Pet knows, and she confesses that to Amy. But they don't do anything, perhaps, because the can't, or they don't know how to do it (seriously, I don't like Fanny, but I agree with her when she says that Amy is a little goose...and so does Pet...).
Chapter VIII is the first time in which I have liked the Meagles. Mrs Gowan (Henry's mother) is terribly rude and mean with them, and she is presenting her dear, little, useless boy as a victim. All the time. But, who is paying the accounts? Pet's daddy. She is not doing anything at all but play the victim, and rubbing on the Meagles' faces the poor results of all the things that have happened.
In the next two chapters, the book really starts to become thicker, as the tittle says. All acquintances who are now again in the scene. And the ubiquous Blandois everywhere. It seems that everybody percives him as a bad man, but, surprisingly enough, all the doors seem to be open for him. I am afraid that poor, loonely Arthur will have to face very hard times.
Fanny and Mrs Merdle pretend that their first meeting was in Martigny, so they tacitly agree in forgetting their previous encounters; however Fanny is going to make Mrs Merdle pay very expensive her pride and ostentation. In consequence, Mrs Merdle will have to accept her without reluctance and to recognize her the right to shine on her own, because Fanny will not accept a secondary place. So, we can imagine that, becoming Mrs Sparkles, she will display the supremacy of the family with full rights; and Mrs Merdle’s compensation will be to see his useless son married, what always is a great target to a mother.
So, it seems that, at the end, all is in favour of an agreement between them; and even Mr Dorrit is very interested in establishing contact with Mr Merdle in order to try to obtain the most profit of his wealth. Thus, he said that if Mr Merdle could not come to Rome he was willing to go to London to show him his respect.
And Amy, seeing that his father decided to return to London, got very excited with the idea of accompanying him in the trip, because, despite her progress with Prunes and Prism, she still has not fully adapted to the new life, and she misses very much her old friends.
Oh my God!!! Fanny thinks that Mrs General has a design on pa! How it is possible? Under any circumstances, Fanny could bear any Lady in her own family over herself!
Amy thinks that Fanny can be mistaken, but, in my opinion, if Fanny says this, it is because she has seen enough details to think this way; and we can’t forget that she is an expert in the matter; so, it is to emerge a big problem that will be the source of many conflicts, because we have seen that Fanny has rejected until now all suggestions of Mrs General related to good manners.
When Fanny said that she could not bear Mrs General as her mama, and that if this occurs she would get married with Mr Sparkler in order to get free of her, Amy got very surprised and said that she should never marry him under any circumstances. Amy can not believe Fannys words because she has repeatedly heard Fanny speaking of Mr Sparkler with disdain; she knows that she underestimate and doesn’t love him; so, to her is inconceivable that Fanny talk of marrying him.
Amy and Fanny have conceptions of life very different; therefore Fanny is shocked by Amy’s lack of interest in society, and Amy is astonished for some of Fanny’s decisions.
For Amy the fundamental values are love, friendship, kindness, generosity solidarity, sincerity....., while for Fanny life is a game in which the most important thing is to win, without taking into account the way; so, for her the end justifies the means. In consequence, Fanny has no moral principles; or perhaps I must say that she has an utilitarian moral with this single principle: everything that helps her to achieve a prominent place in society is good, and evil is everything that stand in her way.
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