According to some Little Dorrit is "one of the most significant works of the 19th Century".
14 de octubre de 2011
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Wilkie Collins
Quiénes somos
- EOIGoya_Inglés
- El Departamento de Inglés de a Escuela Oficial de Idiomas (EOI) "Goya" se suma con este proyecto de blog, con el blog de teatro y con su página de vídeos en YouTube a la explotación de las nuevas tecnologías como parte de la enseñanza de idiomas en la enseñanza pública en Madrid. Un cálido agradecimiento a CMF, sin cuya colaboración esto no sería posible.
Concurso 2007-08
524 comentarios:
1 – 200 de 524 Más reciente› El más reciente»Hi, 5ths, we have finally and thanks to María Luisa Alvarez (5B), who sorted it all out, managed to upload the novels of this year.
The use of the blog is very good to improve your writing skills, to become aware of grammatical structure and to get the habit of thinking in English straight away.
this year´s novel, Dickens once again, is fnatastic. Through the reading of Little Dorrit you will learn to love this "maestro" of English fiction. Work hard and enjoy yourselves!
Hello!
Thank you María Luisa, you´re the best!
I´ve started to read the book two days ago, and I can´t stop reading it! It´s amazing. The author´s descriptions are really good. And I´m sure I´m going to improve my vocabulary and my grammar a lot.
Good weekend everyone!
At last!
I’ve been trying to have access to the blog several times over the last few weeks, and I was starting feeling uneasy because I was eager to join it again. So, thank you very much indeed, María Luisa. You are an angel.
It is so nice that you are going to read Dickens (So am I). Wow! What a formidable opportunity to have fun! Because this is what it is all about, Carmen and this thread are here to make us thrill!!! And here I am as well to help a bit, so to say, to disagree and make it even more exciting.
I still remember the first time I read Dickens, “A Tale of Two Cities” with Carmen of course leading the team, or, should I say “the club”? It was pretty hard in the beginning as it takes time to get yourself used to his writing, but keep going and you will end up enchanted, he is so talented that so far he is the best narrator in my opinion. And you see, now I cannot stop myself as “Great Expectations”, “A Christmas Carol”, “Bleak House” (my favourite so far) and “David Copperfield” followed... It is now time for “Little Dorrit”.
I am so excited! I’ve just finished chapter one and am already looking forward to seeing your posts.
Please, join us!!!! You won’t regret it!!! You will learn!!!! (a lot by the way) and most of all, you will enjoy yourself writing and thinking in English.
See you soon
:-)
Hi!
I love the way the author ends chapter 1. It is amazing the comparison between the palid face skin of Monsieur Rigaud and the whiteness of the landscape he had described at the beggining of the chapter. Never had I read so amazing novel, I had read good novels, but not as good as this.
Hi, Roberto, well you are becoming an expert in Dickens: I hardly think anyone in Spain has read that many!!! particularly engineers as you are.
Monica I think that description is wonderful as well, it is the way he blends in people and nature that is so amazing, or should I say the fact that he connects them is so natural a manner??? Rigaud, I cannot like, I admit that he faces what he is, in a way, I mean he admits to the battering of the late Mdme. Rigaud, normally men do not admit to doing this...only to the judge and when they have been...caught, but sincerity is not all, in case of Rigaud, he faces, but he is too clearly...nasty, don´t you think?
His late wife must have been silly and blinded by his "breeding", something common even now, don´t you think?
I wonder what the first chapter will mean aong the novel. I have just read the second one and I found it completely different from the first. The only thiing they have in common it that both of them are settled in Marseilles.
As Carmen said, the second characters are brilliantly described: Mr. Meagles and his family with their background and the way they're travelling around the World.
I can imagen Mr. Meagles speaking in English to anyone, whether they understand him or not. I know people like that in real life.
I don't think I'll be able to read only two chapters per week. The novel is quite catching.
mARÍA jESÚS SO GLAD TO HEAR SOMEone complimenting Dickens at so early an stage, yes mr. Meagles is wonderful. from the first we are impressed with his being a good man, aren´t we?
All of them are in Marseilles, that is the connection...keep reading
Good night to everybody:
Last year, we read Jane Eyre, and I liked it very much. I am afraid that Little Dorrit is not going to be so enjoyable to me, but, even so, what I have read till this moment make me think that it is a good piece of literature. By Dickens, I have read only A Christsmas Carol (and I didn't like it) and To be read at dusk (much better in my opinion, and not widely known). I have seen, also, the film adaptation of Great Expectations, which is not the book, of course, but is a fine film, and I recommend it you. I agree, I think the descriptions are very well done.
Thank you, María Luisa!
Having read the second chapter I want to say that it is the best part of the chapter for me when Mr. Meagles was talking to anyone in english, even if they didn´t speak english.
Such fun it was for me that I couldn´t stop laughing all the weekend. I was remembering all day long some people who talk loudly with people that cannot understand them. I´ve imagined Mr. Meagles almost screaming.
Many post already, that’s fantastic!
I agree with you all (Rosa Jane Eyre is such a marvellous piece of narrative; however, you will see in time that Dickens’ novels are even better).
If there is something I like about Dickens is the way he normally introduced us into the story with no apparent relationship between what you are reading and what you will go through later on. It is somehow puzzling and confusing but it always leads to something else María Jesús...
I cannot but agree with you both Mónica and Carmen. The moments you mention are intense indeed. However, what I enjoyed most in the first chapter is on the one hand how Dickens describes imprisonment. Absolutely brilliant, the climax being reached when John Baptist glances out of the cell to look around and the parallelism or comparison with animal life out of freedom is accurate indeed.
On the other hand I enjoyed the “social” differences we observe between the “two birds” and as to Mr Rigaud, I don’t know why but despite his despicable character, Dickens presents us his case so pitifully entertaining that I cannot but feeling a little bit uneasy about his condition, I mean to say, I don’t dislike him as I should.
Finally, chapter two is again portentous and funny, really enjoyable. Had I to choose a single moment in Mr Meagles’ character is his interaction with the haughty French lady when parting...
Mind Mr Clennam, I like him or at least how he exposes his former days before Mr Meagles...
It is amazing for me to be able to read Little Dorrit though, I´ve found something very difficult to understand,I am sure I´ll get it following this blog and working every day.
I really enjoy reading it specialy the descripcion about the light outside the prision and the deep shadow inside it.
Reading the first page of “Little Dorrit”, I felt the burning sun of Marseilles and got staring like the white houses, the white walls, the white streets...Who does not remember a summer scorching day as the one beautifully described by Dickens? Who has not perceived the unbearable stillness of a torrid day at noon when the only sound you can hear is the cicala’s chirping, while all become parched and paralyzed and the only thing you can do is to stay still at a shadow or to doze peacefully?
Dickens manages to make us feel the sweltering heat of a summer day as if the sun itself were scorching us.
Is not it remarkable?
I want to comment about Tattycoram.
She behaves as a little child. I think she is worried only for herself, and doesn´t understand the situation. Were she a real Mr. Meagles´ daughter she would complaint, but she isn´t. Never is she going to be traited as Pet. I daresay Tattycoram is jealous, and I would be also in her situation, because We always want what others have.
And, finally, I want to point out the name of Mr. Meagles´ daughter. It is very funny their double meaning, it would be as a cat or a name which says us that she is the favourite (which is related to I´ve talked before).
Hello!
I agree with you, Mónica, but not entirely. Don't you realize that Tattycoram is very young, and Mr Meagles and his family are quite contemptive to her? They have given her a degradating allias, and they think she is a bit moron (defective, I think, is the word that he used). And she can´t complain, because she is in a dependant position, as Miss Wade says. I think I understand very well her behaviour.
The tittle of the first chapter is “Sun and shadow”; so, no sooner did Dickens finish of showing the overwhelming power of the sun that only lizards dare to challenge, he accurately began to describe a repulsive cell of a prison occupied by two men who lived surrounded by rats and different vermin. And Dickens achieves to make us feel the bitter cold of this gloomy and repulsive cell, where the sun never shines, through the image of the frozen prisoners, despite of being respectively covered with a great cloak and a coarse brown coat. Such is the plasticity of this paragraph that I felt shiver when I read it!!! Didn’t you?
I am sorry if I already said something alike last year, but it still continues to amaze me quite a lot: Dickens' prose looks like poetry several times. In spite of being unduly difficult (plenty of new words, specially along thorough descriptions, as well as very complex grammar), if you listen to the audiobook at the same time you are reading it (because my incorrect pronunciation would not allow me to notice it), it is possible to realize Dickens has carefully chosen every word, not only due to its meaning,but also because of its sound.
The awful situation of the prison depicted by Dickens can’t be more repulsive. He achieves to highlight it by introducing a little angel to feed the “birds”. In my opinion, this way, Dickens shows us that there is there not only physical disorder but an absolute lack of logic that produces astonishment. I felt anxiety imagining the little girl’s dread while she was giving the food to the prisoners.
As one of the prisoners had a knife in his red sash, and the other had been looking sideways through the bars of the grating with the expression of a wild beast, but without the noble look of them, the situation could not be more disturbing.
Who did not feel uneasiness seeing monsieur Rigaud’s hypocrisy when he laughed and nodded at the keeper’s daughter to hide his real personality? But while he laughed his face showed his real nature, showing a very sinister and cruel expression, and that made me feel disquiet.
Otherwise, I also got astonished seeing John Baptiste kissing the little girl’s hand, who had passed it “caressingly” over his face, before the indifferent gaze of her father. Don’t you?
It seems we already have found one of the main characters of the novel: Mr. Clennam coming home in a way as glommy as that days's weather.
I enjoyed very much this third chapter because of the descriptions of the house and its inhabitants and Mr. Clennam feelings' remebering his childhood within those walls.
The paragrapf I liked the most because of its rythm is the one that explains Arthur Clennam's mood and thoughtswhile is having a coffee and a church bell was singing "come to church, come to church, come to church.." and then "they won't come, they won't come they won't come...". It sounds great.
It is clear that Tattycoram is a woman who suffers a lot and probably she suffers with herself because she does not accept her condition like a servant and she envies Pet because she would like to be treated like Pet, she misses somebody takes care of her. She must be about seventeen -because she is younger than Pet- but she seems to have a very weak character; no sooner does she begin to shout than she is afraid of her temper.
I am very surprised with Dickens. We have read three chapters and we have met a lot of characters but we do not know the relation between them.
On third chapter, it scared me when he spoke about the dead-carts. Wasn´t the description frightening enough? The dire despondency, dolefully...?
I´ve found the funny thing when he handled marriage´s issue.
Here we are the thing of the marriage again.
The way Jeremiah proposes Affery it´s a very funny scene, but the best of all was Affery´s way on telling the story. She doesn´t admit accepting it because she want´s to. She expresses the necessity of it, and the pressure under she was.
First of all congratulations because there have been lots of comments. I would like to remark specially on those of Roberto and Isidro as they are the two which really show an understanding of Dickens mastery.
The rest of the comments are very interesting as well, well done, Monica because you understand Dickens sense of humour, in fact he is very funny, the way he describes situations from the perspective of humour. I agree with you that the conversation with the French lady is superb.
Tattycoram, well, I understand Rosa, yes tatty has had a difficult life, but not everyone with a difficult life is so...frustrated and angry, after all she had had a positive turn in her circumstances with the "adoption" of the Meagles, who she abuses behind their backs to a total stranger...
I was interested in the conversation about forgiving, is it easy to forgive? I find myself in the "painful" position of agreeing with the cold-blooded Miss Wade...it is very difficult to forgive..what would you say to this?
Isidro I would like to congratulate you on your level of writing, firm, confident, mastery, well done. I´ve particularly liked the post of the heat.
Roberto..well you are an expert now in Dickens, aren´t you?
Rosa, Dickens is...the best. by the time we finish the novel you will fully appreciate him. allow yourself to be imbued by his narrative and his characters, get into the story.
Carmen, thank you for your kind words. I have improve a lot, because I have tried all time of following your instructions; I know that without you my level wouldn’t be so good.
I would like to stress the irony that Dickens showed through Rigaud’s rehearsal of his statement before the tribunal, with John Baptiste as the only witness.
First pearl of humour: He began introducing himself as a respected gentleman who have lived by “his wits”!!!???. For example, despite of being poor, he had lived in the Cross of Gold during four months until the owner of the house “had the misfortune to die”, and he had the luck of marrying a rich and beautiful woman.
Second: Rigaud said that he had a character to govern, but unfortunately, Madame Rigaud inherited Henri Barronneau’s property. “Such was the insane act of her late husband”!!!??? Is not it funny? In my opinion it is to die laughing.
Third: Rigaud had suffered the slanders of Madame Rigaud’s relations. They said that he treated his wife with cruelty, but in reality he only sought to improve her manners. Poor Rigaud, his intention was good but people didn’t understand him. Ja, ja, ja, ja......
Fourth: Madame Rigaud’s relations and neighbours said that he had intended to force madame Rigaud’s relinquishment of her inheritance and that before her refusal he assassinated her, but according to Rigaud that night, when they were walking amicably like lovers, she lost her temper and began to hit him and tear his clothes, and finally leaped over upon the rocks.
Poor Rigaud, People don’t know that he is a respected gentleman and that one of traits of his personality is frankness. ja, ja, ja, ja,....
Fifth: If Rigaud’s declaration is a full irony, John Baptist’s answer, in my opinion, is also very funny. “It’s ugly” he said, when Rigaud asked his opinion. But as Monsieur Rigaud showed surprise by his answer, he craftily said : “Presidents and tribunals are so prejudiced”
What a nice way of saying what he was really thinking without risking a confrontation with his cellmate!!!!
Whatever Rigaud say in favour of his being a gentleman, he looks like a rude, vulgar, braggart, authoritarian, mercenary, lying, violent, and above all a murderous; and in my opinion he is it.
Good morning to all you.
I think the third chapter has a very interesting beggining. Dickens is going to introduce you gloomy characters, so he puts you into a dark, sad atmosphere. It' s such a heartbreaking...even scary place...
For me, The Meagles are not entirely possitive characters, but, of course, they are quite more likeable than the Clennams, and I think Dickens makes sure of making a very stark contrast between them.
Isidro, it has not been me but YOU, without your effort My effort would come to nothing, so the merit is yours. I have liked your use of the adjective very much, when you describe Rigaud...yes, I totally agree with you. The only psoitive thing I see in him so far is that he is aware that he is a rogue though he tries to twist round things to appear as though his deeds were done to benfit whosoever happened to be unfortunate enough to become involved with him.
Rosa, yes the change of country and the change of climate and the change of people. Dickens blends the "within" and the "without" very well indeed.
Mrs. Clennam is an interesting character, how came she to be so frustrated, so bitter? And what a house, its very site is gloomy, the inside, expected to be cosy a home, is so bleak...the only human there seems to be Afferey and she is kind of..scared?
Isidro, it has not been me but YOU, without your effort My effort would come to nothing, so the merit is yours. I have liked your use of the adjective very much, when you describe Rigaud...yes, I totally agree with you. The only psoitive thing I see in him so far is that he is aware that he is a rogue though he tries to twist round things to appear as though his deeds were done to benfit whosoever happened to be unfortunate enough to become involved with him.
Rosa, yes the change of country and the change of climate and the change of people. Dickens blends the "within" and the "without" very well indeed.
Mrs. Clennam is an interesting character, how came she to be so frustrated, so bitter? And what a house, its very site is gloomy, the inside, expected to be cosy a home, is so bleak...the only human there seems to be Afferey and she is kind of..scared?
Hi everyone!
I agree with Carmen about Mrs. Clennam's character. I do believe that religion not always helps human beings to become better, as we can see through the history. Religion has usually been the main cause of wars and suffering and, in my opinion, the reason of the frustration and bitterness of Alfred's mother.
Anyway I think that Dickens decision of including a litle girl character in the prision was simply a wise move. Not only her presence, but the song that both, John Baptist and the child sang togheter in the first chapter, is like a new breeze inside that awful place.
About the forgiving-forgotten argument: Acording to my own experience it's imposible to be happy without forgiving. But the most important thing is not to expect anything from anyone, so your are less vulnerable. This is one of the most tough lesson I've ever learnt. Mind you, forgotten is another question, we do need not forget. Our memory is the only friend at hand before making a new-old mistake.
Have a good week end!!!!
Well...finally I have read the first three chapters of the novel and from the begining , I identified C.Dicken´s style; with his descriptions of characters, places....situations....etc..
Some extracts and roles remembered me last year´s novel "A tale of two Cities". Here, we can observe the duality of life and human being. The dark and light side of life and people.
It is amazing how Dickens uses his characters to decribe us the contradictions of living. There two prisioners who make us feel fear and be aware, one of them has a knife...an instrument which causes pain, even dead.......in a cell dark, wet and where everyting is dirty and awful.
On the other hand.....it appears " the innocence" represented by the little girl...because Dickens wants her to be innocent ( like women in that era) but , perhaps behind that innocence there is cruelty as well....we´ll see it.
When this little girl encouraged by her father gives the two prisioners the bread.... like throwing crumbs to the birds...prisioners are those birds. It is ironic....two men compared with two pretty and and tender birds.
That´s the duality of life: beauty and ugliness, innocence and cruelty, the good and bad, the strong and weak etc... all that represented by the characters we have known until now in these three chapters and which become a perfect reflection of human psychology.
As I read the third chapter I have discoverd a very interesting character Mrs. Clennam: a woman.., tipical of Dicken´s novels, who is a terrifying character.
She is cold and bitter, forced herselt to live a life of reclusion, a way of paying for her sins, probably....a woman with any emotion and as her own son says " she is a woman who "weighed, measured, and priced everything".
A strictly religious woman who has influenced his own son with the fears and remorses of her actions. Here the double morality of religion, so often seen; in one hand , the power, money and a good econimic positon and on the other hand it preaches the kindness, humility, forgiveness...and as Oliva says...having been religion the cause of many wars ans suffers, many people have lived in the double morality, hurting and oppresing the neighbor and then they have given "chest-banging".
Sorry... reviewing my comment I have noticed that I have made some mistakes by trying to write fast...but there ir one unforgivable: Dickens´
Carmen:
I know you like "Downton Abbey", so I inform you that it is available the second season. Here you have the link where you can download the chapters in english:
http://www.sofacine.com/series/downton-abbey-2o-temporada-vos.html
I dare say that this second season is as interesting as the first one..so enjoy it!!!!!
Currently I am under or shall Isay inside the hair-drier in the hairdresser's (beauty... A bore when one is tryong to beautify oneself.. With what result well that is another question..) Thus and under the circumnstances of heat, noise and discomfort, I will just hope to publish this post to TELL you NOT to miss the play in English in calle de los Reyes instituto cardenal Cisneros today or tomorrow at 5 and 8pm 7e with carnet de le escuela, it is simply FANTASTIC.
Good night:
I think we have seen, till this moment, some interesting characters. Mr Clennam, for one, who seems not to be in good relations with his parents. His mother, who has spent the last years locked in her room, with all the windows closed and fully dressed in black, head to toe. She makes me think about Miss Havisham character in the film adaptation of Great Expectations, by David Lean.Both them seem to be embitered by something. Like Tattycoram, who is in a dependent position, like Jane Eyre, whith the difference of being Jane a girl from a good family. And Miss Wadde, who is a misterious woman who perhaps knows more things than it seems. Maybe she had to live a similar situation.
Good night:
I think we have seen, till this moment, some interesting characters. Mr Clennam, for one, who seems not to be in good relations with his parents. His mother, who has spent the last years locked in her room, with all the windows closed and fully dressed in black, head to toe. She makes me think about Miss Havisham character in the film adaptation of Great Expectations, by David Lean.Both them seem to be embitered by something. Like Tattycoram, who is in a dependent position, like Jane Eyre, whith the difference of being Jane a girl from a good family. And Miss Wadde, who is a misterious woman who perhaps knows more things than it seems. Maybe she had to live a similar situation.
Good night:
I think we have seen, till this moment, some interesting characters. Mr Clennam, for one, who seems not to be in good relations with his parents. His mother, who has spent the last years locked in her room, with all the windows closed and fully dressed in black, head to toe. She makes me think about Miss Havisham character in the film adaptation of Great Expectations, by David Lean.Both them seem to be embitered by something. Like Tattycoram, who is in a dependent position, like Jane Eyre, whith the difference of being Jane a girl from a good family. And Miss Wadde, who is a misterious woman who perhaps knows more things than it seems. Maybe she had to live a similar situation.
Hi all,
I agree with Monica,
It's really great the way Mrs. Flintwinch depicts how she was managed to get married. It's almost a joke!
Mrs. Clenmann and Mr. Flintwinch are really manipulative people. That' something usually happens when people have spare time as they have...
Chapter one finished when Rigaud was brought to the tribunal.
When he got out, a great uproar was produced with yells, shrieks, oath, threats, execrations....I saw last week a similar show on TV when the police brought to court a man suspected of murder; so in this respect we have not changed anything.
The second chapter began with a conversation between two people who have been in quarantine and are going to be liberated. In my opinion, the conversation between Mr Clennam and Mr Meagles is very interesting and perhaps I will comment it in other moment, but now I want to talk about my suspicion that Rigaud was the French gentleman who spoke in the hotel taking Miss Wade’s position in front of Mr Meagle.
Mr Clennam and Mr Meagle had been talking of the howling of the precedent day which means that the prison was very close to where they were. So, in case Rigaud had been acquitted, he would have been released the same day than the quarantine people. And in my opinion this was the case.
Rigaud had very close his suffering in the jail and therefore he could not accept Mr Meagle opinion.
What do you think about my supposition?
I'm sorry. In my last comment:
...."Mr Meagle's opinion".....
Yes, I agree with you, Isidro. And notice the commentaries about that conversation which makes Ms Wade, another interesting character that you haven't mentioned.
I didn't think about the posibility of being Mr Rigaud the French gentelman who has been released the same day: I thought the scene that Dickens is telling takes place before (chronollogicaly) the first chapter, and that he was telling us something that happened short before.
Hi everyone,
I agree with you Isidro, I have the same suspicion when I read the chapter II. It is my first time reading Dickens but I feel that he didn’t write anything that is not related with the story. The first two chapters seem to be not related, but I think that when we follow reading the novel we could find that they are related with the story.
Congratulations mates! I am gladly surprised before such an amount of comments as well as their content. Honestly, you all mention very interesting topics and would like to answer you all but as usual, I've got so busy an agenda that I am afraid I can't. Sorry about that.
My next post will be focused on Mr Clennam, his mother and his house...and of course on Little Dorrit.
By the way could anyone tell me what chapters you are doing this week? In any case you are doing two of them per week. Aren't you?
Thank you,
:-)
Roberto, we are doing chapters 3 and 4 and 5 this week, we do one chapter a day and if there is a short one we add it as well.
Well, Isidro, I have to say that I also suspect Rigaud to be "the French gentleman", particularly considering precisely what he says about forgiving and forgetting.
Rosa, very good comparison between the resntful Mrs. Havisham and the "unrelenting" Mrs. Clennam, both of them are the same type of stern woman who appears to have been hurt by something happening to her in her live, something negative, of course.
Reyes, hi. A very good parallel in your post, and certainly sriking to have someone like Rigaud compared to a beautiful "caged" bird, birds can be nasty, eagles, vultures, but these are not usually pets. thanks so much for the link!!! I will watch the series as soon as I can! I loved it.
Roberto, I am all "eyes" to read your opinion on Clennam: Personally I think he has suffered owing to a total absence of love in his childhood. He has matured into a good man, one cannot say that he was young at 40 any more, but I doubt whether he has conquered the sadness acquaired then. He doesn´t seem to have been very close to either father or mother, so he doesn´t have any affection at all in his life.
We don´t think that growing up loveless can affect us but it does, what makes Dickens´mind so penetrating is the fact that he is aware of this before the existance of phychiatrists.
Good night to every one:
I agree with the last commetaries. Mr Clennam has problems because has had a terrible childhood, without anyone taking care of him. His parents only were concerned about money, business and religion. And the mother, the mother is just terrible!She is a fanatic. I have the feeling he was totally controling his husband and tries now to do the same whith the some. And the relation between the couple probably was not good at all. I think I have understood that the servant, Jeremiah, was a sort of "go in between". But I think it was not anything unusual at those times, because the marriages usually were made because of the money, the politics or the convenience, like in Affery and Jeremiah's case.
Rosa you are absolutely right in saying that they did get on. Servants were important then, too as they are now, those who have them know that they are part of the family circle, they become close friends. As to Mrs. clennam being a fanatic she was, she learnt and practised the worse part of religion, that would be the Old Testament for Christians, but I think that Religion can be very positive to us provided we take a more generous, a more giving attitude. I´m sure that I won´t have crowds supporting this view, but look around you, misionaries, etc. do a world of good. Howeve I certainly cannot imagine Mrs. clennam as a misionary, I don´t think she would be a success...
In the second chapter we saw that there are different ways of being practical people. Mr Meagle said that her wife and himself, as practical people, had decided to take Pet to church to hear the music because they wanted to show her everything that could please her.
Mr Clennam, after having heard Mr Meagle’s confidences, opened his heart and told him the penalties of his childhood. Mr Meagle encouraged him to face the future with optimism as a practical man. And Mr Clennam said “If the people who are usually called practical, were practical in your direction.”
Obviously he was thinking that his parent also had been practical people, because they “weighed, measured and priced everything: for whom what could not be weighed, measures and priced, had no existence.”
In my opinion, to face reality in the light of reason exclusively, only targeting the material performance, has the risk of eliminating feelings and affections, and therefore the pleasure and enjoyment of life. So, to be practical people is good only if this principle is subordinated to higher values.
This is a recurrent subject in Dickens. Thus, in “Hard Times”, Mr Gradgring showed his educational ideas that advocated the primacy of the facts and discarded the use of fancy. Mr Gradgring considered himself in a higher position and scorned the people of inferior status or without the proper scholarly training, but at the end he discovered that his radical ideas had led his children to failure, and that people he thought less cultivated had better values. And in “Great Expectation”, when Tip became rich, he received a good education and discovered a new world; but at the end, when things were wrong, he realised that friendship, loyalty and goodness were higher values that sometimes were found more easily in humble people.
Thank you Carmen.
The beginning of the story was somehow confusing to me because I lack of the proper historical background around which the story is first introduced to us. Fortunately, Dickens quickly makes me focused on the real issue, the characters and the situations they are passing through. this might be obvious, however, it's always the same for me. When I enjoy most is the time the narration goes parallel to what the characters see and feel.
It is Mr Clennam that firstly captured my full attention. I don't know why but no sooner had I known a summarised account of his past than he became an important character for me. Not everyone is so honest, so sensible and so straight when saying aloud how empty his life has been, even more when you are forty. Actually someone told me not long ago that not everybody is able to look bad and admit and plainly see what was wrong in our past... Anyway, I don't know why but Dickens made me notice him and...
...What a coincidence. He's the protagonist of the subsequent chapters.
However, there seems to be something wrong in all this. I mean to say, when he comes back home (I've no words to express how portentous the description of the house and its inhabitants is, my favourite moment being London described by Mr Clennam looking through the window) I see why this happened to him but somehow I don't blame his parents entirely. Living under so (religiously) strict a dwelling had to be hard indeed, even more if you are just a child. And I wonder, is it childhood which form our character as adults? Arthur could have tried to change his fate as a grown up but he didn't until know. So, I'm not sure that there is not, to a certain degree, reluctance from his side to fly away. I think it might be similar to the case when someone is kidnapped and then when released still feels some sympathy for his captor. On the other hand, I guess that if your family is what it is, there is no escape, and when you cannot change them, you can only but cope with it. Do you agree with this?
In any case, is it not weird that extremely pious as Arthur's parents are, there is this business issue around them. It's like a contradiction isn't it? Religious extremism vs implacable business???
Another amazing characteristic I love about Dickens is his superb skill to introduce (and interlink) characters which (and whose stories are related to each other too). Look at Little Dorrit for instance.
Like Mr Clennam, I'm looking forward to knowing more about her story.
And what about Mrs Flintwinch's dream?
Hi!
I´m trying to introduce Mrs Flintwinch´s dream on the story. Not only couldn´t I understand anything about the dream but also his relationship with the rest of the chapters. Hopefully, I would introduce it when I read more.
Related with the religious issue, I think all extremes are bad, and of couse religion has good things, like missionaries but also religion had conduced us to the worst wars in the history, and that´s not good at all (as somenone remarked before).
I see a bad side of the religion, an extreme position, in Mrs. Clennam. And the outcome of it was suffered by Mr. Clennam, who nowadays still respect and support her mother eccentricities.
I am very keen to know more about Little Dorrit!!! So I will keep reading!!
I would like to talk about Mrs Clenam. All the atmosphere of her house: darkness, gloom, coldness is according to her temper. She is full of resentment, loliness, sadness, bitterness; what has happened in her life? It may be something unforgivable. Probably when we know this, we can understand her a little more. She acts like she did not love her son. After twenty years without seeing her son not only does she talk with hard words but also she does not show any kind of affection. I think this coldness is not normal.
This resentment may be the answer to something that has hurt her very much; and she has not forgiven it.
In my opinion, there are things which are not easy to forgive but more time you do not talk about thosea things that have caused pain to you, more difficult is to forgive. And Mrs Clenam has let this during twenty years at least.
Roberto you hit the nail on the head when you say that Clennam is too plaible and he doesn´t try to change, but when you are in the habit of obeying as a way of not risking hell, you become dubious and lack drive to move on. It has taken him 40 years to surmount this abyss...the abyss of failure of fright.
Beatriz, Mrs. Clennam is certainly hurt and when you are hurt your reaction is one of resentment, I know we should try to forgive, but it is difficult, thus she clings to religion as a consolation but takes the position of severity not of acceptance.
Good afternoon:
I quite agree with the last commentaries. Religion it coul be something good, because it gives hope to the people, and provides rules which can guide your life to a better goal: but very often is something terrible, used with wicked purposes. Think about the Cruisades. Think about Inquisition (and I am not talking about Spanish inquisition, which, altough it has very infamous reputation, was not the worst all: the German one was terrible, and the Swiss Inquisition, inimaginable). And, sadly, this is not history: now we have Islamic terrorism. I think you can't put the blame on saying that they were stupid or ignorant, because many of the people who did such things, were cultivated and intelligent. And this is not exclusive of Southern countries, or Middle Age. In Jane Eyre, we have Mr Brocklehurst and Mr Rivers, who are fanatical, and very western, and, of course, educated and civilized people. I think we have the same with Mrs Clennam, who asks in her prays for the destruction of her enemies with, fire, blade, leprosy, and many horrible thinks. I think we should have some musings about this, because intolerance and fanatism are not exclusives of the Islam.
Wow!
You people are amazing. You have started with so much energy that I feel below all of you.
For me the novel is being quite difficult and hard to read. It is very difficult to get inside the characters specially at the begining when in every chapter there was different people and you couldn't connect them.
And another problem is I'm not able to feel fond of any character, I like none of them even Mr. Clennam I just feel I little sorry for him but at the same time there is something dark about him.
The best thing is "the mistery" which is gently reveling and is catching my attention.
I wish I finally liked this novel.
I see Arthur Clennam like a "loser". He is in his forties, a man without any job prospects, no money and not even any experience in life and women.
A weak man , feared of his mother , without any confidence. Apparently, he loses everything, he is "the anti.heroe" of a man, and by the moment we do not know the reason why this man is the protagonist of these chapters.
But I guess that a man like him can give us many surprises....I say that because of my reading other C.D novels. I am sure that at the end he will give us many surprises.
Of course , now he seems very awful but I hope, chapter by chapter, our feelings for him change.
We saw in chapter two that Tattycoram has a depressive mud and that she suffers very much. She has fits of sadness from time to time, because she had a sorrowful childhood due to the lack of affection that has left a great void in her soul. Therefore we should not be surprised that she should feel especially sad, seeing Pep receiving from her own parents all the affection that she misses. She knows that the Meagles are good with her, and she even loves them dearly, but she can’t help feeling her inner break.
Otherwise, she said to be afraid of Miss Wade, the only person who seems to understand her, because she realized that both had the same problem, as Miss Wade herself had also detected. So, Tattycoram knows that, the same way a drowning person can’t be saved holding other one who can’t swim, Miss Wade can’t be a big help to her. The only thing they can do together is to cry and to complain; that is, to sink deeper and deeper into depression.
I'm sorry.
In my las comment:
...."she has a depressive mood...."...
Yes, Isidro, I agree very with that.
Let's see the chapter about the family matters. I think that, in the Clennam's family, there is a terrible secret, a secret that Ms Clenamn doesn't want to be talked about. And what a terrible woman! She is, as we say in my country, to be feed apart. She is just terryfing!Look and read the thinks she says to his own son. If she does such things to his own son, I don't want to think what she would do to people who don't belong to her family.
I'm sorry, I meant "the things she says"
Good nigth:
What do you think about fourth chapter? I find it most strange and intriging. Does Jeremiah have a secret twin brother who nobody knows about him? I would say that they are involved in not a clean business.
About Mrs Clennam, perhaps she has good reasons to feel disapointed because of her son, but I think she is overreacting. She has worked hard during the last years in the family business, of course. But so did Arthur, who has spent twenty years in China with his father, and I don't think that doing pleasure trips, as her mother says. I think he has obeyed his parents during his whole live, and he has not got anything good of that: so he wants not to go on with the familiar business, and live a life by his own. No wonder he doesn't want not even to spend a single night more in the same house, which is, in addition, depressing. Perhaps it was, in nine teenth century, something much worse than now, but I think I understand better Arthur's position.
Hi!
I agree with you Rosa there must be something terrible between Mr and Mrs Clennan, but I also think that that kind of extremely religious people make things worse than they really are, if that thinks doesn´t fit within their believes.
I want to highlight chapter six. The best have we read till today. It´s the funiest. I love the moment when "The father of the Marshalsea" came to prison, and being he worried about their family, and how his wife can arrive to the prison, and the suggestion of the turnkey was that she would be accompanied for anyone, for example a greengrocer. Definitely the turnkey wasn´t aware of his newcomer´s wife.
As in many other times, I fancy how Dickens name their characters, for example, turnkey. It´s very explicit.
I like more and more Dickens. I like the wealth and command of language, the complexity of the issues, the poetry that occasionally surrounds his prose. I really like his sense of humor and his subtle irony, and the way of attract attention, introducing tracks that open different possibilities and that sometimes only much more later will be clarified.
For example, I liked very much the passage of the Affery’s dream. In my opinion, Dickens shows here a deformed reality as if a glass reflected an inverted image. Thus, if we believe that the image is the true reality we are wrong. So, we would make a great mistake if we believed what Mr Flintwinch says, because, in this passage, he is the glass that turns reality.
In my opinion, though Jeremiah menaced Affery with a dose if she had “a dream of this sort again”, in reality he had given her wife the dose this night before she were to bed; therefore she was so confused that didn’t retort to his husband. In reality, Mrs Flintwinch didn’t say anything of a dream; it was Mr Flintwinch who talked of the dream in order to distort reality to confuse her.
But the facts are these: Mrs Flintwinch awoke and seeing that his husband was not in bed got up to look for him. And while she was walking, the effect of the drug and the semi-conscious remembrance of what had happened in precedent occasions triggered the dream in which she doubted if her husband was really slept or not, therefore there are two Mr Flintwinch, one awake and another slept. But the fact that she had this dream doesn’t eliminate the fact that Mr Flinwinch was out of bed and she had got up to look for him.
In my opinion Mr Flinwinch acted like this because he knew that the better defense was a good attack. In reality was his wife who could ask him, but as he showed great confidence in his attack and she was drugged, she got puzzled and could not say a word.
Consequently, Jeremiah and Affery’s marriage only was a ruse to keep up appearances and to hide that there was anything more than friendship between Mrs Clennam and Mr Klinwinch. Jeremiah drugged his wife from time to time, and whenever she knew something “strange” he accused her of having odd dreams. Affery got married with Jeremiah, because he and Mrs Clennam decided it. Thus, she said to Arthur: “if then two clever ones made up their minds to it , what’s it left for me to do? Nothing.” And when Arthur told Affery “I should have thought that neither of you would have married; least of all should I have thought of your marrying each other”, she said: “No more should I.”
It is not machiavellian? It is not fantastic? It is not diabolic!!! Don’t you see the snake writhing through the leaves of the Bible?
Well, I feel a little shy because by chance I have to write after you Isidro. So good a writer!.But I am realy taken with chapter four and I would like to say something:
Although the facts described in this chapter are dramatic, C. Dickens shows his great sense of humor from the very begining to the end of the chapter.
Apart from the descriptions of baby's delibery with a great deal of flies around and Mrs. Bangham and the doctor drinking brandy that we analysed yesterday with Carmen. I found amusing doctor's apparience, the way he was dressed and of course his point of view about the paceful life of the prison.
In spite of the fun, I think it is true that the anguish of a free life must disappear by the isolation that keep the prisoner away of his problems and enemies.
As for Mr. Dorrit's descent, Dickens describes in a wonderful way how we can smootly fall in several years little by little without notice it.
Good morning:
I think this is an interesting piece of news. If somebody is going to go to London, may be, he or she could go to the exhibition:
http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/1200002/0/charles/dickens/bicentenario/
Thank you Rosa. I'm going to London next week and I'll go to the exhibition. ¡It's a very good news for me.
Maria Jesús, thanks for your compliment.
However, I make basic errors. For example, I wrote... “much more later”, what is redundant, instead "much later".
I had written "much more ahead" and later I changed "ahead” for “later”, and I did not realize the redundancy because I did not read the whole sentence.
Rosa, how right you are when you say that this fanatism exists nowadays!! and at home, too, I mean in our own homes, who has not been charged with the horrible words "aren´t you afraid of God? (es que no tienes temor de Dios)", "Ojalá que te pase a ti lo que me has hecho", or the final"tendrás tu castigo"..... don´t they ring a bell???
Noelia, persevere... Dickens is wonderful, you have to try to understand what he says as a whole, not word by word. how do you do this? read the chapter more than once, but do not despair if there are chunks you do not understand, this happens in Spanish as well.
Reyes, Clennam seem a loser, indeed, we know that Dickens is fond of these characters who seem incapable of thrift, who lack the drive to build a better life for them, who are haunted by received pain in childhood, but these characters are so real, aren´t they? isn´t it difficult to change your personality? to shed your skin, figuratevely speaking, and become soemnoe else? why can´t we forget those in our families that have hurt us? because we are bound to our past..
Good morning:
I have found a BBC miniseries about Little Dorrit which looks quite well, but I think it's better not to watch it till we have finished the book. However, if someone wanted to make a glipse...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVSZILI_eus
The bad thing is that it is in English with Spanish subtitles...
Hello there,
I'm not sure if you are reached chapter 8 yet as this time I have not read your latest posts.
I just wanted to say that I am so excited about the novel that the other day, in my way back home on the tube, I had to stop reading...
I wonder why is it that Dickens writes EXACTLY what I want to read and what I want to know and feel... No surprise though, he is a genius.
Let me also tell you that the way he jumps forwards and backwards into the story to link characters is so clever and so talented that I can guarantee you that I am the happiest of men after reading chapters 6 and 7.
10 out of 10
I meant "HAVE reached..."
Sorry about that.
It's always nice to read your commentaries, Roberto. I think it's true that the novel is going to give us some interesting surprises, therefore my advising of not watching the TV series till we have finished. I think this has not been aired in Spain, or sold on DVD.
I have found a quite interesting article about the novel:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1080276/The-real-Little-Dorrit-inspiration-Dickens-classic-novel-single-mother-turned-prostitute.html
Rosa, I think that what happens to Arthur regarding his mother is what happens to anyone, who having suffered a lot for a long period of time, but coming back hoping to find some sort of change in the person, who love or no love, has brought you up and for whom you still have some feeling, you see that this change has not taken place and will never do, so simply you just separate from that situation with no feeling, you simply realize it will never change, there is nothing to be done, Arthur leaves his house, dreary as it is, because he has no hope of ever finding a change there. We should always try to improve and to change whatever is wrong that we have done otherwise we will be left, abandoned, and worse of all will be that it has been our fault.
Isidro, I have found your remarks about Affery´s dream quite interesting: my point of view is that Affery wakes up, goes in search of husband, not because she misses him but to find out what he is about, and discoveres this misterious Double, who is suspect is a twin brother. Jeremiah then, discovering her presence, and aware that she has seen the double, tries to disconcert her her with blabbery but makes sure she understands that should she not regard this as a dream, he will batter her. Of course, she who is not as stupid as she appears, chooses to accept what she is told. Why doesn´t affery fight back? because she knows that she cannot beat Jeremiah, he has Mrs. Clennam´s favour and she thinks that both are clevere than she is. Then it is not easy to fight unaided, is it? she has all to lose, and not much chance of winning therefore she decides to play the fool.
rosa, thanks for the links, I´ll read the article and see what it says. I don´t recommend watching the DVD as it is better to leave that for the end of the year when we have finished the novel. should anyone want to see it, and though the mystery be lost the reading will still be fantastic, as Roberto says there is so much to Dickens that you can only get immense satisfaction from its reading.
Roberto I´m so glad you are enjoying it!! so glad you can appreciate it!!! We have come a long way, haven´t we, since we met was it 4 years ago?
María Jesús, don´t be shy. Not everyone writes as well as Isidro but EVERYONE can try, and the more you write the better you´ll get. The father of the Marshalsea..chapter is wonderful. It is Dickens all over, with its phrasing and descriptions, which though the tragedy of the situation is not lost in the fun of the readering.
I have particularly enjoyed the excuse the doctor finds for drinking, and which is to keep Mrs. Bangham "up to it". How often do we find excuses for our behaviour, how ofteen do we blame others for our behaviour?? how often do we cause others to take the blame because we cannot admit (or recognise) that it is our wrongdoing not somebody else´s???
5ths tuesday/thursday group please post the title of the composition I gave to one group, I think I forgot to tell the 3/pm one, so can group D post the title? I think it was about Disappointing parents but at the moment, in Santander, where I am, I cannot recollect the title!!!!
I have reserved the Hall to watch the film "the other day" so we will do it on thurdsday 3rd nov at 5pm.
Juan, Is it you who offered to bring it?, then do so please.
Any 5th former or anyone in the English departament is invited, of course.
Arthur suspected that there was a secret in his family and he thought that only his mother could clarify it. So, after having spoke of business affairs, he told his mother he wanted to talk about something that concerned the family. And in that moment Mrs Clennam’s face got the impenetrability of an old Egyptian sculpture.
As Arthur had not a clue, he talked in general but at a given time he used the word “suspect”, and the Egyptian sculpture became more impenetrably in her granite face. And when Arthur asked his mother if it was possible that his father had wronged anyone and made no reparation, she “looking at him wrathfully, bent herself back in the chair to keep him further off, but give him no reply.”
So, in my opinion, the answer implied in her silence was yes.
I think that Arthur’s father wronged anyone and that this anyone was Mrs Clennam. I think so, after seeing Arthur’s mother attitude when he told her the anxiety of his father in the last moment before dying. Otherwise, when Arthur said that no one could help him towards it, but her, Mrs Clennam showed “the appearance of a phantom of fierce aspect gliding away from him” and interposing “her left arm, bent at the elbow with the back of her hand toward her face, between herself and him, and looking at him in a fixed silence.”
In my view, in this moment, Mrs Clennam was horrified and very disturbed because Arthur was approaching to the secret that she and his husband had carefully hidden. She seemed cornered and was so shocked that couldn’t say anything.
But when Arthur, in his attempt to break his mother’s silence, said that he was willing to make a reparation or restitution of money to anyone, if it were necessary, she saw that Arthur knew less than she had thought In this moment she recovered the calm and with the help of Flinchwinch achieved to focus attention on money to mislead Artur.
Arthur had lost his chance of unveiling the secret, and his mother was relieved seeing that Arthur was completely confused.
I would have liked to know the secret, but at least I know that it is not about money.
A very good comentary, Isidro. So do I. I would tell that is not about money. Could it perhaps involve an adultery? Mrs Clennam seems such a religious woman... My mom says that people who spends all their time praying is because they have what to repent of... Anyway, I don't think that she could cheat on his husband, although she didn't love him, and he was in a very far country, so she had the opportunity. So did the husband. Could have been he? Perhaps Arthur is not son of one of them. May be, because of that she was not in good relations with any of them. And she believed it was her fault. Adultery was a very serious thing at thouse times, altough it was probably very common, specially among the higher classes, because marriages were made for money or politics, not for love (well, Arthur had a girlfried, but he had to leave her because his mother dissaproved it). Many men had several families, the "legal" and the other or others. But it could ruin your reputation and your family's name, so most of them tried to keep it in secret. May be, this is the case, altough this is only a supposition of mine...
Carmen, after reading once chapter IV, I think that Mrs Flintwinch’s dream was developed completely in bed. So, she didn’t awake, and she neither went out of his room nor really saw Mr Flintwinch and his supposed brother.
In my opinion, the dream began in the paragraph that starts whit this words: “It seemed to her that she awoke, after sleeping some hours....” And all what happened from this moment until Mr Flintwinch told her “What have you been dreaming of? Wake up Wake up? What is the matter?” happened in the dream. In this moment, Affery awoke and gasped rolling the eyes: “The matter, Jeremiah?
So, she didn’t go out of the room. But when Mr Flintwinch arrived met her having a nightmare and he awoke her and menaced her with “such a dose!”
Otherwise, Mrs Flintwinch didn’t retort because it was true that she had had a nightmare and was very confused.
Dickens is a master creating paradoxical situations, but he gives clues to discover the truth. For example, when he describes Mr and Mrs Flintwinch room, he said that their room “was approached by a steep descent of a few odd steps”. Therefore, whenever that Mrs Flintwinch had to go to Mrs Clennam’s room had to climb an staircase.
However, when Mrs Flintwinch went out of the room that night, she “went straight down it …(...)... She did not skim over it, but walked down it...” But this only could happen in a dream, never in reality.
I'm sorry. In my last comment:
..."Mr and Mrs Flintwinch's room"...
While I read the chapter four,my imagination passed swiftly towards what follows:Mrs Clennam,into that special room,should give birth;
consequently,Mr Flinwinch's double
should be carrying the baby into that iron box which "Jeremiah watched with jealous eyes".
Those both two situations could be
the motive for which Mrs Flintwinch
made the following questio:" The
matter Jeremiah
At last could I catch up with your posts. So, briefly, here I go:
I consider Mrs Flintwinch's discovery as a real fact and agree with Carmen that her husband is just trying to confuse her and make her believe herself somehow out of her senses... something which reminds me "The woman in white" when Marian's sister is kept into the asylum where there was no way for her to show that she was sane...
I believe Mr Clennam did just but his duty as a son. The thing is that his mother is possessive and most of all with that character which never admits itself to be wrong and therefore, and sadly, doesn't admit possibility of changing. And as far as my personal experience is concerned, there is nothing that makes me feel more frustrated and desperate than seeing people like with this (unconscious?) vice, even more when such person is so close to you...
Rosa, I think that you are right. It is possible that the secret be something like what you say. I have thought in this matter following your ideas, and I have arrived to the conclusion that the supposition that better fits to Mrs Clennam’s behaviour is that Arthur be an illegitimate son of Mr Clennam. Only supposing that Mrs Clennam is not Arthur’s mother did we find coherence in her behaviour and understand her resentment and her inextinguishable bitterness. From a radical religious point of view such as Mrs Clennam’s, it is normal that she should think that Arthur, being a son of sin, were going to Perdition. And it is also normal that she never should forgave his husband, above all taking into account that she was an infertile woman, what according to the bible is like a divine curse.
I think that, if she had had a child of her own, her bitterness wouldn’t be so intense, and she could have forgiven his husband and have treated Arthur less harshly. But in her situation, she never forgave his husband and her hatred was reflected in her rigid silence and her stern look, and even she punished him downloading all her hatred and resentment in Arthur, who spent his childhood in an atmosphere of bitterness and mortification, contemplating with dread the stone and threatening face of her mother, which undoubtedly would also reflect on his father’s.
Poor Athur! I can imagine how sad and wretched would be his childhood. Can you? It is not strange that Arthur have an horrible memory of his nonage, when he passed his time involved in a rarefied atmosphere, sat between his parents’ averted faces in the midst of a rigid silence. The lack of affection and the bitterness of those days undoubtedly must have left a deep influence in his character.
In conclusion, if Arthur were an illegitimate son of Mr Clennam, Mrs Clennam‘s bitterness and her coldness, bitterness and resentment would have a clear reason. But, by the moment, we have not any prove of it, therefore it is only a coherent possibility.
Good night:
Well, Isidro, it could be something of the sort, but after all, we have not prove at all. Perhaps the husband was involved in a crime (and he had to go to China, in order to not be incriminated), and none ot them told it and they let an innocent person got the punishment, it's the other thing that I have in mind. There is a said which says that behind a great fortune there is always a crime. And in that house, things which are very strange are happening. Does Mrs Clennam know something of Jeremiah's strange bussiness? I would dare to say that she doesn't.
Rosa, in my opinion, if Arthur’s father were involved in a crime, Mrs Clennam’s anger toward her son would be incomprehensible. A mother can hate his husband for many reasons, but it is not normal that a mother hates her own son, above all if he is very little.
I think that Jeremiah knows the secret reason of Mrs Clennam’s anger; therefore when Arthur returned home, after having lived out many years, he told him that he doubted if his mother would receive him. In normal situations, the return of a son who has been away a long time should be a cause of joy for a mother, but Arthur’s arrival seems to be considered as the one of the usurper.
Otherwise, I don’t believe that Jeremiah has a business unknown to Mrs Clennam. Wy do you think this? In my view, between Mrs Clennam and Jeremiah there are not secrets.
Good morning:
Well, Isidro, I don`t know. What you say, has some sense, but I don't think that Jeremiah' s secret has something to do with Mrs Clennam's one. Perhaps the watch is an incriminating proof, therefore Mr Clennam's anxiety about that. Perhaps he spent the last years of his life tormented by repentance, and eventually he wanted to make justice, but the wife didn't aprove it, altough she has had remorses, too...
Isidro, a very clever and wellreasoned out post about the family secret, waht I like of you is that you go to the text and read it carefully, for you comprehension is important and you comprehend!!! The secret then accordding to you has nothing to do with money.
on the other hand I cannot agree with you about the dream, for me it is real, and she is trying to be confused.
Rosa... and adultry...well could be, at the moment I don´t know myself!!! I think there is someting really awful in Mrs. clennam and by the way I agree with Isidro when he says "she has wronged someone and this someone is Mrs.Clennam", she is too angry too fanatical, too intense, too stern, too of everything negative so there is certainly something amiss with her. She lacks that gracefulness so much valued in women to the extent that I cannot see her as a little girl.
Roberto, you are very right when you say that it is annying that people are incapable of change, more often than no this is due to their being proud, such a bad "habit". The incapacity to change because you are boind to what is before you is present in King Lear, isn´t it?
In my opinion, it is very interesting the way Dickens introduces a certain ambiguity in Affery’s dreams. Such is the ambiguity that it is necessary analyse with attention the dream to know when the dream begins and when it finishs.
In my view, the description of the dream begins with this words:
“It seemed to her that she awoke”... (So she didn’t really awoke)....;
and continues: It seemed to her................“that she looked at the candle”....
And continues:
it seemed to her..................... “that she arose thereupon..(...).....and went out on the staircase”
(but she didn’t go out of the room).
She continued dreaming when she believed that she walked down the staircase to go out of the room, what was impossible, because her room was at the side of the house and was approached “by a steep descend” according to the description of in the same page.
And finally, she continued dreaming when she seemed to see two Mr Flintwinch.
In my opinion the two Mr Flintwinch that Affery sees only exist in her dream.
She said that she realized the difference between the two Flintwinch with her head going round and round to discover it, because they were so alike as an object and its reflection on a glass.
But I think that if she had been awoken she had noticed the difference immediately though only were because of the clothes. Because I don’t think that in case Mr Flintwinch had a twin, they were dressed the same way. Do you?
In my view, the confusion of the reader is produced by the fact that there is a continuity between the end of the dream and what happens in reality when Affery awakes.
Affery was dreaming that she and Mr Flintwinch had just arrived into their room; so it was an action into the dream; but at the same moment Mr Flintwinch really came to the room and, seeing that Affery was taking a nightmare, awoke her.
I'm sorry. In my last comment:
..."it is necessary to analyse"...
..."according to the description of the room given in the same page"...
Hi everyone!
I don't know the title of the next composition, but the topic is: How people use to lock themselves in order to avoid suffering (As the doctor and Mr. Dorrit in Chapter VI).
Next, Isidro: I don't agree with you about that Affery is dreaming. In my opinion she's awake, but her confussion is due to that she's sleepy and, afterwards quite confussed about what is she
looking at. I believe that Jeremiah has a lot of secrets and that he's trying to get his way free.
Moreover: at last have we had a full picture from our heroin!!!
Again a wise movement from Dicken's: to make us wait until chapter seveb to know her.
And I really like her: The way in wich she cares of her family, above all of their father. The knoweledge of her tiny shape and weakeness, but the strengh of her character. He becames the head of the family, being the youngest.
He manages to get dance classes to Fanny, to get jobs for "the all the time tired" Tip, She herself learnt to do needlework. But the thing I most like of her is the way in wich is she trying all the time to avoid sufferings to her father. I'm looking forward to reading more about our Litle Dorrit.
New topic of discussion,
Do you think it possible to fall in love or to feel a strong attachment for a person much younger/older than yourself and regardless social condition and other "practical" issues such as beauty and background? Could it be real love too?
Hi!!
Thanks Oliva for the information about the composition. I hope someone would complete it with the number or words which are required, the last day to handing it...
Regarding the novel, I love the end of chapter seven. I have imagined something like that when Dickens were talking about her learning needlework (as we saw in chapter III, I believe, that Little Dorrit needleworked very often).
Oliva, I don´t agree with you, I don´t think she cares her family for nothing. Sometimes, when I was reading the chapter, I have the feeling that she is worried about her own job! She wants to get that job. She reminds me a nun, she don´t know the real world, the outer world, and indeed she didn´t want to.
It surprises me that, at the end, she finishes going out, working for Mrs. Clennan, and meeting Mr. Clennan. But, why?...
On the other hand, I agree with Oliva, I think Affery is awake. Dickens try to confuse us with his way of writting, but I think that what he is really trying to say is that Affery, because of her husband´s words, is not sure about what really have happened.
Regarding Mrs Clennam and Jeremiah´s relation. I believe that they have secrets in common, they are like accomplice, and they help each other. And relating to Mrs. Clennam secret and his relation with her biterness, I think it has to be with the wish of his husband to get the damage repaired, which is also what her son wants to do.
Sorry:
accomplices instead of "accomplice"
and Mrs. Clennam´s secret instead of "Mrs. Clennam secret"
Hello folks!
In spite of the fact that this year I will not be able to read the novel with you, I felt curiosity, popped in and... what a surprise when I saw you have already written almost 100 posts!
I congratulate and encourage you to keep going, as the more you write the more you will feel confident with your English.
I just wanted to inform you that
the life and work of Dickens will be celebrated in festivals and outdoor activities around London from next December onwards, to mark the bicentenary of his birth.
The first play is "A Christmas Carol", the main character of which, Scrooge, will be performed by Simon Callow (he played the role of Count Fosco!). Here you have the link in case you happen to visit London when the play is on. http://book.1st4londontheatre.co.uk/tickets/a_christmas_carol/pg:72/showid:3015
And also, BAFTA-winning actress Miriam Margolyes stars in "Dickens’s Women", a one-woman stage show exploring Dickens’s female characters. Date and venue to be confirmed. I will keep you updated...
We cannot miss it!
Have a nice day,
María
HI!!!
This is my first contribution to this interesting thread about Little Dorrit.
I just only wanted to mention something that I have noticed and I found so interesting in chapters six and seven, that is the way Dickens gets us into another story, in another place, between other characters, all these mixed with other little stories. I recall one Carmen´s commentary regarding to this, she said that Dickens is gifted in introducing different apparently disconnected stories that finally join up together unexpectedly.
I have found this so interesting and I feel eager to know more about this novel.
See you at five.
I am starting chapter VII and I have had to stop just to write hear because it's incredible how Dickens can lead us in every chapter like we were children taking is hand. I just realize that in this chapter a circle has been closed because in the first chapter we met the prison, the turnkey and little Dorrit (these two very slightly)... they were there but we didn't know. Now I can understan better lots of things.
And I have the impression that Dickens is always trying to trick us :-D
Oh! Dickens is amazing....
Good morning every one:
Well, for me, the chapters VI and VII are not so interesting, because, in my opinion, it is more interesting to know what is the Clennam's secret and what strange business is Jeremiah handling, but they are very well written, and the descriptions are very good: you can notice that Dickens paid a lot of attention to the things that he saw, and could translate them into words. Altough they are important, because they are telling us Amy Dorrit's backgrounds, and now we can imagine her personality.
According to what we talked, about Mr. Dorrit yesterday, in class, I think that Mr. Dorrit is very proud of himself, so it is unable to see anything around him, as his family, for instance.
He only cares about himself and in the important person in which he has become inside jail.
I think that all of us agree that Mrs Clennam is a detestable woman full of anger and resentment. She is always reading the bible, but she seems the embodiment of evil.
However, she seems to have a good understanding with Jeremiah, who is the only person that seems to be a certain influence in her. Thus, he dared to reproach her not having told Arthur that he mustn’t lay offences at his father, and she didn’t retort. And later, after Arthur relinquishing, she told him they would sink or float together with the ship.
Arthur discovered with bitterness that his mother had more confident with an employee than with himself. He clearly saw the impossibility of his understanding with his mother, and that “his father grave, would be as communicative with him as Mr Flintwinch”; therefore he decided to lodge where he had his luggage, and to meet his mother and Mr Flintwinch only the necessary time to clarify the accounts. His mood was so depressed that he couldn’t bear his mother’s coldness and assist at another series of imprecations against her enemies. Poor Arthur! As usual, he only could scape from this dreary realty dreaming awake.
Some days ago, I said that Mr Flintwinch and Mrs Clennam had something more than friendship. Now I think that I exaggerated; but I would like to say that, had she an affective relationship with Jeremiah or with someone else, she would be more good person; or perhaps it would be better to say that she would be less bad. Don’t you think so?
Hello María,
It's so nice to have you here with us, we are all miss your comments.
Wow! That's such a good news! Thanks so much María. I keep certainly busy with my studies (it's rely to be worried about how demanding a master course is...) but Dickens is always first... So I will be there, don't know how, but I will.
I'm so disappointed that you have not liked chapters 7 & 8 as much as I did... Actually there are hardly no more than a couple of posts discussing abou it.
I don't know, I felt attached to Mr Clenman since his introduction to us and, thus, am following the story as if I was him. And like him, I am very interested in knowing more about little Dorit. And know that I do so, I cannot but wishing to meet her, because I like her. And what a coincidence, Mr Clenman does so too...
Finally and I don't know the reason this time either, Dickens could have chosen a rather different approach to present Dorrit and even giving us an alternative background, but he selected the one I was expecting, the one mi mind wanted to find out...
Good weekend for all of you.
:-)
Some spelling and grammar mistakes maybe. My apologies I was writing with my portable device.
;-)
Well, Roberto, a very interesting thread of discussion.... I do think it is possible to fall in love with someone who is your senior provided he is the man and the young one is the woman. In case the man were younger, I doubt it would last...if she conveninetly passed away fast then of course but for, say, 30 years...no. I know we have the recent case of the Duchess of Alba but I think there is a lot of admiration ther on his side and no physical attraction... no that would be impossible, though sex is not everything we do tend to associate a certain amount of physical attraction into it, what do the rest of you think? and what do YOU think yourself, Roberto, I wnat your views...
Well, Roberto, a very interesting thread of discussion.... I do think it is possible to fall in love with someone who is your senior provided he is the man and the young one is the woman. In case the man were younger, I doubt it would last...if she conveninetly passed away fast then of course but for, say, 30 years...no. I know we have the recent case of the Duchess of Alba but I think there is a lot of admiration ther on his side and no physical attraction... no that would be impossible, though sex is not everything we do tend to associate a certain amount of physical attraction into it, what do the rest of you think? and what do YOU think yourself, Roberto, I wnat your views...
Undoubtedly physical attraction is an important element at least to notice the other person at first. When I say this I don't necessarily mean beauty but that attraction itself which normally is linked to the former but in pretty often has something to do with a natural and inward inclination for certaint type of person. However, in my case this doesn't last long unless I find an interesting person behind. Sexual intercourse or let's say passion as well as beauty are always iimportant elemenst for me in the way that they confuse me, leading me to feel a strong attachment for the woman in question. I must admit that by being a grown up pure and innocent love is out of the question, and surrounding circumstances go normally parallel to what I might thing for the other person.
However, the opposite case seems to me the most attractive. When I find someone I admire and like despite all that... In this case a person older is the answer but I have felt something similar for a person much younger than me. If I compare those two, I'd probably choose the former because the younger person seems to lack of some sort of worries and thoughts that are in most of the cases only shared when you get older, it might be due to maturity, I dont know.
In anycase, despite beauty sex and the age, for me what counts is the person and how I feel when I'm close to her. It's important too that she understands how I am.
Leaving for a meeting!!!!!
I believe that if we talk about "love" everything is posible. No matter how old you are, social class you belong to, nor money problemas and so on. When we speak of love, anything can happen because each person has something interesting that attracs the attention of the other. Nevertheless complications can come when they start to live together, that is when problems begin to appear.
Good evening to all of you:
I think that Maria del Campo has suggested a very interesting topic. I will explain. Arthur, it seems, has disapointed his parents, because he hasn't done what they expected he would do. But I think that Amy is just the opposite case: her parents have been quite dissapointing to her, altough she tries to, persuade herself and us, that she admires them. I think that is a good subject of reflexion.
Chapter three ended saying that Arthur dreamed awake; that is, he tried to scape from a depressing reality using his imagination. And chapter four starts telling us that Affery dreamed with her eyes shut. Besides, Dickens tells us that “she had a curiously vivid dream that night.” So, she was really dreaming and it was a very vivid dream. We neither can put in doubt Dickens’ words nor forget that the title of the chapter is Mrs Flintwinch’s dream.
Otherwise, Affery’s dream is not totally absurd. I know that to reveal the meaning of the dream is a complicated issue that exceeds my ability; therefore I ask you to forgive me for daring to try it. I do not care if I'm wrong in my suggestions because my main interest is to practice to improve my writing in English.
But, let’s go to the dream:
Affery realized that Jeremiah took a long time to come to bed and decided to see what he was doing. But she fell asleep while she was going to get up, perhaps because Jeremiah had given her a dose of drug without her knowing it. And perhaps it was an extra-dose! However, this matter is not important in this moment.
After falling asleep, she continued in the dream her idea of looking for his husband. However some contradictions and paradoxes arose in the dream that wouldn’t arise in reality. Thus, she chose a wrong direction to go out of the room.
And, in my view, the two Mr. Flintwinch represent the doubts of Affery and the contradiction that Mr Flintwinch be awake when he must be sleeping. Therefore he appears in the dream asleep and awake at the same time.
The reference to the box of two feet square represents the cause of Mr Flintwinch’s delay; since he had been inspecting the accounts.
Finally, Mr Flintwinch’s departure with the box could represent the possibility that Mr Flintwinch got all the money. That is, Affery’s dream reflects the possibility that, at the end, Mr Flintwinch be the beneficiary of the dispute between mother and son.
In conclusion, the images of the dream reflect Affery’s curiosity to know what was delaying his husband and at the same time her concern about what had happened during the day.
In my view, though the psychoanalysis was not still known, Dickens had innovative and surprising psychological ideas, and demonstrated to know the mechanism of dreams.
well, roberto, so you would choose mutual understanding rather than physical attraction/passion...interesting, I wonder if you would maintain that should you be in a situation like the current Duke of Alba, I mean that a person just a couple or say 5 years your elder would not count, would she? it would have to be much older.
However it is strange that you appear to have experimented oth cases... the younger and immature and the older with whom you had more in common... Álvaro Pombo´s mother arried his best friend (the philosopher Marina, and they stuck together until "death parted them") but it is strange, I cannot understqnd it, really.
Maria thanks for your post and informqtion... dickens´ women how very nice, I´d sure love to see it, bet you Madame defarge is included and David Copperfield´s Aunt.
Maria thanks for your post and informqtion... dickens´ women how very nice, I´d sure love to see it, bet you Madame defarge is included and David Copperfield´s Aunt.
María del campo, I agree with you when you say that in love everything is possible; and, at the end, Roberto seems to arrive to the same conclusion. You are very right when you say that complication may arise when they stars to live together, but it is impossible to know in advance the future.
I think that one thing is to analyse this matter objectively and in a dispassionate way; that is, without being in love, an a very different thing is to analyse this issue with the mind clouded by the love.
At the end, the feeling imposes its rules, and the reasoning loses strength. So, as Roberto says, what counts is the person and how you feel when you are close to her. And no matter what the best friend or the family says, the lover only will see the bright side, because the love is blind.
If you try to rationalize the love, you kill it; and without love life loses interest.
In conclusion, my slogan would be: when the love arrive, live it and let yourself go.
If you try to rationalize the love, you kill it; and without love life loses interest and sometimes it became a hell, as we have seen in the case of Mrs Clennam.
Roberto, we definitely must go and see it. I wish I were an expert on Dickens so I could appreciate the play more, but, there I am, trying my best with the English literature. There is so much to read and so much to learn that sometimes I feel there is no life enough. But, there I am, trying my best...
I tell you I know nothing about Little Dorrit, but I dare join in the discussion, because I just... miss the posting on the blog. I posted so many comments so many times in the past that I feel that I belong to it forever…
That Roberto and the Duke of Alba have a lot in common is the conclusion, then, isn´t it? Do you agree with it, Roberto? Has the Duke of Alba married the Duchess because he loves her? Is it possible to fall in love with the Duchess? Is it possible to fall in love with a woman in her 80´s? I used to think age does not matter…, but now, I am not sure. As I read you, Roberto, you admit in your first lines that first there must be a physical attraction. Hardly ever could I think any man could feel himself physically attracted to… the Duchess (sorry if this sounds very bitchy, but let´s be honest). Afterwards, you state that this physical attraction means nothing if the person “behind” her beauty is not “interesting”, quoting you. I believe the Duchess is quite “interesting”. The Duke could admire the Duchess and thus believed he… fancied her. If we add that the Duchess is glamorous and owns an interesting life and… lots of estates, he must have thought he is deeply in love. Perhaps sex is not what they are interested in anymore. Their love is not physical, but spiritual, so to say. Perhaps they were lonely and decided to share their loneliness. But then, they could have remained friends instead of getting married. Perhaps it was the Duchess who was deeply in love, as she has claimed everywhere. Love is a difficult matter. We love with no reasons, sometimes.
Roberto, what do you mean when you say that “they confuse me”? or “I must admit that by being a grown up pure and innocent love is out of the question, and surrounding circumstances go normally parallel to what I might thing for the other person.” I don´t see what you mean.
As to your final choice, I will tell you that not necessarily should you feel more attached to an older woman better than to a younger lady because of admiring the former and not the later in the same way. You said yourself that you felt something similar for a younger lady, so to say, that you somehow admired her. Young people could be admired too! Of course older people are usually wiser, and wisdom is something very appealing, but you don´t have to think yourself to be doomed to end with an older woman just because you think you won´t find whatever you look for in a younger lady. With this I am inviting you to reconsider your choice…
Now, Carmen, why did you say that you don´t understand that one may stick together with one´s best friend as your husband/wife until death parted them? Is it that friendship does not match with marriage?
Dickens´ women… No, I won´t miss it. I bet you Miss Havisham is there too… I hope she is.
I’m sorry. In my last comment:
“Complications may arise...when they start to live together”
“no matter what the best friends or the family say...”
And in my penultimate comment:
“Chapter three ends.......and.....chapter four starts......”
I want to explain myself more in detail...
Good morning:
Well, I haven't watched the play about Dickensian women, and I don't know many works by Dickens, but, talking again about Little Dorrit, I think it is very soon to talk about love between Arthur and Amy. I think that, by the present, Arthur doesn't love her (yet), but he seems interested about her, because she seems a quite misterious woman. I think that this is something very interesting and very beautifull, and, sadly, in our days we have lost that forever. It's true. I have just realized that all the great histories of love concern a misterious man or woman, who is idealized, and who embodies all sort of supernatural qualities. Think about Dante and Beatrix: he only saw her -I think- three times during his live. Or Don Quixote and Dulcinea: he could idealize Aldonza because he hardly known her. Don Juan and Doña Inés: she was a nun locked in a monastery, all her live. The Phantom of the Opera and Christine: at the beginning she believed him a real fleshless spirit, so she let him to kidnap her. Come on: Do you really think that a boy or girl of our days can idealize the half naked person who is liying close to him or her in a beach or pool? The romantic love belongs to the past, I think it was Jardiel Poncela who said that, and there were the thirties...The modern life killed it. Don Juan Tenorio would be impossible today.
And about unequal couples... well, I don`t think that such kind of couples really could work at real life. Of course, in some cases, they work, but is not the usual, and never have been. Perhaps, in the past, when usually women had to marry older men, for different circunstances, it worked better, but not today. Well, we have Jane Eyre and Rochester, but that was a novel, and it was the XIX th century, and they had romantic love. Do you really think that Duchess of Alba's husband married her because he loves her? (well, perhaps he does, but I have reservations about that)... Look what has happened to Demi Moore and Ashton Kutcher. Men don't like grandmas...and only go with her when they can take some advantages of that: that's my opinion.
Oliva, I also like little Dorrit very much indeed, the quiet way in which she manages to be the head, in charge of all her family and gets things done. She cannot help Tip because he has the need to "cut it" I think it is the way he puts it, but certainly helps her sister and protects the incapable father to live in his dream. This, though a mistake, as it undoubtedly is, helps papa to live a moderately happy life though he is clearly a disaster from every point of view. Kind, though he is he seems to me to be totally incapable of managing Life, however I do know some Mr. Dorrits around, all those who are good people but incapable of dealing with things as business, banks, etc.
Monica, I don´t think L.Dorrit secludes herself nun-like fromher world and her reality, because as you point out she does go outside to work for Mrs. Clennam, no, I think that she makes the most of her very difficult situation, coping with people who are incapable of solving things.
Rafa, I so glad that you find Dickens interesting... he is indeed so gifted and brilliant, a genius, you will never be sorry to read him. Yes, I also admire the way he introduces characters, and places so differen, something that Rosa mentions in her post as well, however I have to disagree with you Rosa, chapters 6 and 7 are most interesting in that they present new characters and new situations in life, and enable us to see the suffering of certain characters and also help us get to know and become aware of the real miseries of us poor Humans...
María, you are certainly clear when you say the Mr. Clennam is selfish. very much so. however we do not dislike him, do we? we pity him. Compare our feelings for Rigaud and Flintwich, those would be more negative, don´t you think?
Well, we have an intersting debate here about age-difference and marriage.
I see Isidro´s point and Maria´s when they say that love is and has to be so we should not try to expalin it, but then it is obvious to me that given you are not considering the time issue, evryone can agree to that. So, should you fall in love go ahead and "love"..but what happens when that "love" disappears, or starts to? This is the complication that María includes in the "living together" issue, then that would not be love but other things should be considered, and here it is when we should be careful when we are thinking of marrying "Romeo" or "juliet" (who by the way, never lived together, or spent so much as a¡one day together!!!, that is why they will eternally love each other...)
now María, in London, you wuote me and I can´t wuite make out myself what I was trying to say!!! This comes of writing so quickly I must have omotted something. I´ll go back to my post and come back to this one
"Now, Carmen, why did you say that you don´t understand that one may stick together with one´s best friend as your husband/wife until death parted them? Is it that friendship does not match with marriage?"
Have tried to find where I said this and have been unable, can you tell me where I said it, Maria?
I certainly think that if you stick together for a long time with your husband/wife you have to be good friends, but perhaps I meant that even in friendship it is difficult to stick together..no clue
Well, I didn't mean that six and seven chapters were bad, but, in my opinion, what Dickens is telling in these chapters is not as unusual as we think, since he had to live a similar experience in his live. And she, Amy, seems another typical girl of the literature of that period, pursued by misfortunes, and conventionally good, and nice, and patient. Well, is very soon, we haven't saw many things for her. Perhaps later she reveals herself as a much more interesing and complex character. In my opinion, her family seems more interesting. It is clear that the father is not good for nothing, but he thinks he is, and he is persuaded he is, in his own fashion, a sort of important man. The uncle seems to be not much better, but, at less, he is a more realistic person, and he is not in prison. The sister, very likely, will end her days very soon as a prostitute. With some luck, he could become the mistress of a wealthy man. After all, she is already a dancer, in a theater, and dancers had not a good reputation. The brother is a lost cause. I give nothing for him. After all, I wouldn't put much blame on him, because he has spent most of his life in a prison seeing terrible examples. Amy is triyng to do something of him, of course, because she is the main character and the good girl, but she is not going to have success, just because the boy is in the wrong places, with the wrong people, and most probably he always will be, and because he is like his father. But Amy has a good point, and something which makes her different from the rest. She doesn't want to live on others people's charity, but by her own means, and she tryes to make her life better, and the lifes of the rest of her family, and she is the girl and the younger (I mean, you should expect that the things she does must be done by his father, brother or elder sister, but they do nothing). I think that there is here some idea about the worth of work which is very Protestant-like. It would be impossible in Spain, just think about El Buscón o El Lazarillo (small children in wicked places with wicked people who become wicked...and bums). In a very discreet way, she tries to become a better, more educated person, and tries to do the same for her family. She seems, whith much, the less passive person of her family, altough in the first glimpse of her that we had, it happened just the opposite. She is always doing thinks, but without been noticed. And I would want to mention again what I have said about the differences between her and Arthur. Arthur has dissapointed his parents, but Amy has been dissapointing by hers.
The passage of the childbirth in Marshalsea can’t be more funny. Do you imagine the deubtor’s wife giving birth in the baking room with the black walls and the ceiling full of flies with the help of Mrs Bangham and doctor Haggage? It is not grotesque?
Do you imagine Mrs Bangham putting traps of vinegar and sugar in gallipots, while she fanned the patient with a cabbage leaf? …....And the flies falling into the gallipots by fifties!!!!! The only thing Mrs Bangham did was to put traps with vinegar and sugar what attracted the flies by fifties to the patient, while she tried to encourage her saying paradoxical thoughts as: “they are doing you good”... “you’ll be worse before you’re better...”
I apreciate very much the way Dickens manages to turn in comic a situation that couldn’t be more regrettable.
It is also very funny the professional attendance of the ghastly medical scarecrow, doctor Haggage. And the way that the prisoners complimented him when they saw him to approach.
And what to say of the goings and comings of Mrs Bangham with the brandy, while the rings fell “from the debtor’s irresolute hands, like leaves from a wintry tree”? I like very much the way Dickens tells us how the debtor was inevitably ruined. Don’t you?
The debtor’s situation could’t be more pitiful. However, he listened resigned Dr. Haggagy’s thoughts about freedom and peace, as very valuable advantages of the life in prison.....And he agreed with him!!!! What else could he do?
Finally, I think that little Dorrit could not having a better welcome with the bites of the flies, as a way of warning her about the difficulties she would face in the future.
I'm sorry, in my last comment:
...."little Dorrit couldn't not have had a better welcome"...(...)..."she will have to face in the future"...
In my opinion, the subject of the love is very interesting from the point of view of writing because it is an inexhaustible source of suggestions, due to the many factors implied in it and because every person is an inscrutable mystery for the others. So, analyze all the possibilities would be an endless task.
We can put representative examples of different possibilities, but this way is very limited to obtain an universal conclusion, because we know beforehand that what is good for a person can not be good for everybody. Moreover, why are we so interested in rationalize something which is essentially pure spontaneity? We can not forget that love is a feeling that arrives without knowing why, and goes the same way. In this matter we can only talk of probabilities. But few people would accept to take a decision about a matter so important basing his decision in statistical forecasting.
In my view, every person has the right and the duty to decide his life according to the logic but as well taking into account his feeling. I also think that the reason should govern our lives, but not to the point that the reason completely override the feeling.
Otherwise, we know many examples of people in real life and as well in literature that have wanted lead his feeling toward a particular person and they didn’t achieve it, and many other that have wanted to break, without success, an inconvenient attraction. So, many times the reason neither can trigger a feeling nor eliminate it.
However, taking into account that all is possible and that it is very difficult to make a forecasting, because whatever we say it only represents a partial view, I agree with Carmen that it is not indifferent that the man or the woman be the younger; and I also think that sex is a part of the love.
In conclusion, however strange that a relationship may seem, all is possible in a variety of possibilities ranging from a platonic love to one more passionate. And regarding the sexual component, it can also have a diverse range that includes, for example, masochism, sadomasochism,.....
Before reading your last comments (wow! What a success! Congratulations!) and posting many things I want to say about love, I just wanted to say that for me there is no possibility of friendship between a man and a woman. It is either love or friendship, but not both. At least for me!
Cheers!
Well, First of all, Hallo every one.
This is going to be my first coment in the blog, and before writing I decided reading all the coments from the first day....and now I don´t Know how to begin.
About the novel I feel quite lost, maybe because I try to conect all the chapters and the characters, and maybe because I stuck my self in every single word tha i don´t understand, but I´m in chapter VIII, so I hope to put in orther and connect the all characters across the 70 chapters.
And about love, friends,religion.....don´t you thing that will be easy,if every one will do it at their own way and respect it the others way
This discussion is interesting indeed... I think that Reason has a power over Love, or at least, over the feelings. I cannot speak generally because I am not an anthropologist in spite of my high interest in people and people´s behaviour; however, I think that there are cases -where I can include my own- in which Reason wins the battle. It is a battle because it may be painful. Thinking people as we are try to protect themselves from suffering, and that is when Reason takes the main role, getting over the feelings. The feelings are there, but Reason "minimizes" them, so to say, just as the result of a "reasoned" instinct (not to be taken as a contradictory statement), if you see what I mean. Sometimes, the fact that Reason beats Love brings a miserable life, but some others it brings peace and relief -against pain and suffering-. We must also pay heed of the "difficulties" or "disadvantages" before we make a decision, which might be understood as a sort of sacrifice; life is also about sacrificing...
Of course there are people who cannot control their feelings; but that doesn´t neccesarily mean that people who actually can, love less.
Why do you agree with Carmen, Isidro, when you say that age is not indifferent?
I agree with Roberto that friendship between woman and man does not exist. There is always some sort of attraction... (I´m not only referring to sexual attraction), one admit it or not... Now and then, I find myself telling a friend of mine that there is some one or two who would want something with her... -one is platonic, but the other is quite... -how could I put it?- real. But she doesn´t want to admit it... yet.
Good morning:
Well... I am not quite sure if frienship could exist between a man and a woman. Altough, I think that sex is important in a relation, I think is it not necessary. Love without sex is possible, but, in my opinion, not sex without love. It is something meaningless...If sex doesn`t have love, or friendship, or something, is nothing, and is worthless...
The problem with romantic, or platonic love is that, eventualy, you will become always or frustrated or dissapointed, because you always, at the end, find out something about the person that you dislike. And frustated, because, for its own nature, is a fruitless love. Or you are very strong or you love very intensenly, or you become sad and frustrated.
A most interesting "lot" on love and attraction.
Rosa has got a point when she says that romantic love would not be possible nowadays with a naked woman lying down next to you...on the beach!!! There has to be a certain amount of mystery.
I hardly think that there can be friendship between man and women, with Roberto and María. there is always an attraction, indeed, but I think that it depends on age and circumstance, I´ll explain myself, the attraction is always there, but it doesn´t follow that the couple are going to end up in bed and at Church. Therefore they become friends.
What is the problem then of Love and lasting? The problem is that all lovers that remain so for ages are those who do not seem to have stepped over a short period of time. Romeo and Juliet´s affair alsted for a couple of days, we never see Don Juan and Doña Inés united, though we presume it happens in Heaven, and Antony and Cleopatra eventually make it "forever" after death as Antony abandons her to go back to Rome and marry Octavia!!!
Thus we can coclude that Love is if it is not, do you see what I mean? Now poor humans have "forced" lovers to stick together for the rest of their lives...how can they continue to love each other? and there are bills to be paid, children, family (always very negative in these affairs...), work, redundancies, no, too crowded a pot....
María investigate with your friend and tell us what happens to her...and rationalizing will keep you out of mischief... letting yourself go always involves..tears.
I know that, as Mr. Bennet says, "girls always like being crossed in love a little", but that is provided he comes back!!There is this in women that want to retain, to possess the men they like and this is a very negative issue for Love, allow them their freedom and they will come back, of course if they wish, I have known a man do what a woman wants him to do in these matters.
Juna Pedro, you say you are lost, and attritubute it to the voacabulary...well, I think it is theatre-going that has got you a little lost, I hope you will recover soon.
Meanwhile, do not look up all the words, keep reading, the vocabulary is not so difficult, you are impressed byy the legnth of the novel and the long descriptions but continue reading and eventually your comprehension will improve.
Arthur is interested in Little Dorrit, who has said "love"? As to her I hardly think that she would expect a gentleman to be interested in her. However we will see.
The wuestion here is how came he to be interested in her? Do you think it has to do with the fact that he sees his mother trest her with a certain amount of kindness?
Why are we so interested “in rationalizing” something which is essentially pure spontaneity? I begin this comment with this question, because I want to correct a mistake I made in my last comment. I am very disappointed to see that I continue making elementary mistakes. Thus, in spite of knowing that we must write gerund after preposition and having written it many times correctly.........
So, it is a rhetoric question; don’t take it into account, please.
MARIA, You say that reason has a power over love and feelings in general. And immediately you say that there are cases in which reason wins the battle, what imply that there are other cases in which the opposite happens.
You take position for the first group of people because you think like them, and you try to make a coherent argument, but a person of the second group as well could make a solid opposite argument.
You say that reason protect people from suffering, but the problem is to know if the suffering that the reason avoid is more or less than the suffering that provoke. You yourself say that reason beating love, sometimes brings a miserable life and sometimes bring peace and relief.
Otherwise, many people say that reason must control the feeling, but when they live a strong feeling their lives acquire such an intensity that makes them see things differently. In this case, people use to make an argument to defend their position and this way the reason serves the feeling.
So, as you say, life is a constant battle, and I think that it is an indefinite struggle that sometimes is decanted in one direction and sometimes in another. But nobody can know beforehand the result of this inner struggle, because as I said in my precedent comment, many factors are implied.
Most people are not subjected to intense contradictions that tear them deeply, so that the inner struggle is usually resolved without tragedy, but sometimes people have to confront a reality that leads to suffering, independently of the position they take.
In conclusion, this is a complex issue very interesting to discuss about, but we must admit that we don’t know the final answer, because every case is different.
You ask me the reason of my agreement with Carmen about that age is not indifferent. What I said is, that it is not indifferent who is the younger, (or the older). I said it because women and men are different and so their reaction sometimes are different; otherwise, in this case, social prejudices play an important role. But can’t develop this aspect because my comment already is too long.
I find your justification very surprising, Carmen. You say that man and woman become friends to "overcome" the attraction they feel for each other. So the natural first step is actually that one! You may be right because there is always a reason why we approach a person of the opposite sex; I would even add people of our own sex, because we like our girl-friends -in my case; boy-friends, in men's case- to be "attractive" too! Don't we?
I'm trying my best, Carmen. Controlling is quite difficult, above all, when I would love to let myself go... But thanks for your encouragement.
As to my dear friend, I hardly think there is much to investigate left. I see it very clear, but she doesn't agree with me. I don't know if it is false modesty! Both men like her very much. The first one likes her because he looks up to her; the second..., well you could cut the chemistry between them with a knife. But none will try anything -because of the circumstances-, and this is the only fact she sticks to. So, I am very much afraid that I won't ever be able to prove me right. Lately, she has admited the attraction bit though, so there might be some hope...
Love is ephimeral, except for those who live short lives. Where is the tragedy then?
I don't know Little Dorrit personally, but when I read that "she would not expect a gentleman to be interested in her"..., I'm sure that deep inside it is exactly what she wants. Who wouldn't?
Isidro, I just posted my comment without having read yours -as I belive we have done it at the same time-. I will answer you later, promise.
Isidro, I started saying that I couldn't speak generally as each person is different, so, of course there are other people who cannot control their feelings, but I feel I can.
I don't agree with you when saying that "the suffering that the reason avoids is more or less than the suffering that it provokes". When you feel that there is no future in a relationship is better to stop to think. It can be painful, but less painful than keeping on going with an illusion.
However, I agree when you say that "people usually make an argument to defend their position (that they love) and this time the reason serves the feeling", and this is because we turn to rationalize everything we do to justify ourselves.
As to age, I think it can work out only if the woman is younger. I agree that social prejudices play an important role..., friends, yes...
I would develop it longer too, but I have to go to speak about Environment!! yeeeeah!!
María, you say that there are people that cannot control their felling, and that in your case reason wins the battle.
We agree that some people act one way and others differently, and in my opinion all opinions are respectable. So, when you say your opinion about this matter or any other, you speak of your experience and the only thing the others can do is to respect it. So, I respect very much your opinion as I respect any other.
But my position in this matter is much more indeterminate and modest than yours, because I think that what a person thinks in a concrete moment can be different in other moment. And this is like this, because people don’t know how would be their reaction in front of experiences they have not lived. Do you know what would be your reaction in the case you felt a love like Juliet’s? In my opinion, you can’t answer this question without having the experience.
When you say that in your case reason wins the battle, it seems as if you thought that you are always right in your judgments. And as well, it seems that you think that the reason can establish a clear rule that shows us the good path. But the reason is not neutral; therefore people sometimes use it to defend contradictory positions. Otherwise, in my opinion, nobody can know beforehand which would be the own reaction before a unknown feeling, because one thing is to think coldly in an hypothetical case and a different one is to think having the experience. Therefore I think that nobody can say that he will not drink of this water.
hello folks!
I have been reading your post with great satisfaction, becuase I consider them very interesting and deep.
We have to realise Little Dorrit situation;she has been in charge of responsabilities that are normally taken for adults. Nevertherless she is a child and is very surprised for the interest of Arthur in her, but I suspect that is just curiosity, nor love.
In her short life she has no had very much nice surprises, and just being in touch with a gentleman is something out of her mind.
What do you think?
I have bee reading the chapter VIII,in which Charles Dickens do the best description about Mr.Frederick I have ever read.It's simply fantastic.On the other hand,the author inserts sentences with a certain sense o humor:" his trousers were so long and loose, and his shoes so clumsy and large, that he shuffled like an elefant" or "Any one can go in" (about the prison)replied the old man;plainly adding by the significance of his emphasis,"but it is no every one who can go out"
I dare say the use of sense humor,perhaps be a way to do more sweeet the chapter, because sometimes the situations are shown strong or cruel.
Well,I have made some mistakes: bee,that has to be "been".Isn't it funny?,is it? and sweeet that I wanted to say sweet.
Hi Isidro, I agree with you.Nobody know what is going to be their behavior in front a new situation. You need to have had an experience in this way, in order to know what is going to be your behavior.
You only realize it, when you have to face the problem face to face which will be your reaction.
Hi Isidro, I agree with you.Nobody know what is going to be their behavior in front a new situation. You need to have had an experience in this way, in order to know what is going to be your behavior.
You only realize it, when you have to face the problem face to face which will be your reaction.
We know that love is very important in life. Very intelligent people have been affected by love, and sometimes the struggle between feeling and reason has disturbed them. And literature has reflect this reality in memorable masterpieces.
In the film “Another year”, for example, we saw how people’s life can be affected by love or by the lack of love. And I suggest you to see “Vania en la calle 43”, that is an adaptation of “The uncle Vania” of Chejov. This film shows some people struggling for love, and their bitterness, frustration and loneliness when they discover that love will never brighten up their lives.
gggg
Hi¡¡¡ I am here at home, tryin to send my frist message I think this method is a good idea to improve the writing. I am reading the book in my opinion it is hard for me because of the vocabulary sometimes I have to stay all time looking at the dictionary tryin to find the meaning of the words. But and possitive I want learn and improve my english. Sorry if my first message its bored. I whish you a happy almudena´s day. Gema.
I have been whatching dowton abbey it´s so nice I think we can learn about this It´s quite interesting the actors, the music, etc...I whist every body like it as I do.
Just to say that I went to see THE HELP criadas y Sras yesterday evening at 10 and liked it very much indeed. not easy to understand the negro ladies, but go ahead and go.
Good afternoon:
I have tried to see Downton Abbey, but I think there is something wrong with my PC or the Internet conection in my house, and I couldn't, I'll try to get the entire series on DVD on a library...
However, what do you think about Chapter VIII? I think Arthur was very surprised, and Amy not entirely happy of seeing him there.
What is your opinion about that?
I have just finished to read this chapter. Yes I agree with you Rosa,she is not very happy when she is speaking with him she is treating him with fear ore something like that, I think she feel sad ore she has a deception. I like this chapter, I found this one easier to read than the others I don´t know why and I am starting to like, I feel good for that reason...Imaging yourself in a prision with lock door inside the prision all night lone, it is so hard for me don´t you think so? I prefer spent the night inside de Corte Ingles for example.... jajajajja
What do yo think about Tip? I think is not a bad boy isn´t it? what about you Carmen? what do you think? He is a boy I know but... jajajajjj
I am trying to read about the contex and it is better beacause before I was all the time looking at the dictionary and I am so tired doing that. If I have time tonight I am going to se the second serie of dowton abbey.
Kiss Gema
Well, Gema, I quite agree with you.
I think that Tip has a serious problem. Of course, he is lazy, and a bum, as I think I had said already, totally lacking of iniciative, and it is true that you can find persons of that sort in real life, and commonly they are men, but I wouldn't put all the blame of him. He has spent all his life, or most of it, in a prison, having terrible examples in front of his eyes, beggining with his father. He has been raised without mother, also, and he doesn't seem to have had a friend concerned about him like Bob the turnkey. And I have a feeling he spends all his time with bad companies. I think he could have been a better person having close to him better influences, and powerfull, because the only good person close to him I think is his sister Amy, and, sicerely, she can't do much for him, or to have a good influence on him.
Well, Gema, I quite agree with you.
I think that Tip has a serious problem. Of course, he is lazy, and a bum, as I think I had said already, totally lacking of iniciative, and it is true that you can find persons of that sort in real life, and commonly they are men, but I wouldn't put all the blame of him. He has spent all his life, or most of it, in a prison, having terrible examples in front of his eyes, beggining with his father. He has been raised without mother, also, and he doesn't seem to have had a friend concerned about him like Bob the turnkey. And I have a feeling he spends all his time with bad companies. I think he could have been a better person having close to him better influences, and powerfull, because the only good person close to him I think is his sister Amy, and, sicerely, she can't do much for him, or to have a good influence on him.
María, where have I said "I find your justification very surprising, Carmen. You say that man and woman become friends to "overcome" the attraction they feel for each other. So the natural first step is actually that one!" I just cannot find it and I need the context to be more precise in explaining myself. I think that I will admit that there is always a certain attraction between two people, be that what it may be (love, admiraion, etc.) but for it to develop itself onto love in capital letters well, that is another thing. If we take Romeo and Juliet, that is very visual, very naive, very honest so to say, but where adults are concerned Love normally appears with a lot more interests, as we see in Antony and Cleopatra.
María ans Isidro a most interesting discussion on...reason. I do see Isidro´s point, and agree that it is difficult to see what we would do should we be Juliet and that much in love, innocent love as it is. however, I do think that there is much in the power of the mind and if we rationlize we can surmount any feeling, I am not saying this be easy, I´m just saying we can, provided we want to.
Rosa I think that Amy is not happy to see Arthur at the Marshalsea and to see her father and to see how poorly they live, who would? moreover she is deeply ashamed of her father, who wouldn´t when he asks for money of a mere stranger? How often have we suffered for our parents´ words? I think that all of us, particularly out of insecurity at a certain age, but this is not that this is embarrassment at seeign how he lowers himself for some peenies, when he thinks that working is beneath him!!! there is somehting morally wrong with Amy´s father, don´t you think?
Arthur got very surprised that so cold, selfish, stolid and insensitive a woman as his mother should have a girl at home working for her. Therefore he asked Affery for the girl that was working in his mother’s room; and when she told him that she only was a whim of his mother, he got very surprised because he couldn’t imagine that his mother could feel compassion of anyone.
In my opinion, Mr Clennam followed little Dorrit because he wanted to know the hidden reason of his mother’s generosity. So, he asked directly her how she had known his mother. He thought that it was possible that her mother wanted compensate her for any old damage she could have inflicted to her family.
In case his family had been the reason of the misfortune of little Dorrit’s family, he also would be indirectly responsible of the penalties of this family in prison. However, he felt relieved because he also had suffered his own penalty, feeling excluded all his life, without knowing the reason.
In my view, though Little Dorrit and Mr Clennam have in common that both have been beaten by life, Little Dorrit has an inner strentgh that impels her to face the difficulties without discouragement, while Arthur seems more irresolute. Therefore, Affery tried to encourage him, seeing he was cowed by his mother the day he returned home.
Of course, Carmen. Most of us have suffered with our parents words. My myself, beeing in the wrong side of forties, sometimes still do it. Parents are our models during chilhood. But they are also human beings, so why should they be perfect?. Our expectations about their capacity for solve any problem, to understand us at every moment sometimes made us misunderstand them. It was very hard to me when I realize that they weren't infallible. In Litle Dorrit we have such a bad examples of parenthood! It's amazing that Litle Dorrit became Litle Mother, dont'it? Let Dickens explain us why
Mrs. Clennam and Mr. Dorrit are developed their behaviour....
Of course, Carmen. Most of us have suffered with our parents words. My myself, beeing in the wrong side of forties, sometimes still do it. Parents are our models during chilhood. But they are also human beings, so why should they be perfect?. Our expectations about their capacity for solve any problem, to understand us at every moment sometimes made us misunderstand them. It was very hard to me when I realize that they weren't infallible. In Litle Dorrit we have such a bad examples of parenthood! It's amazing that Litle Dorrit became Litle Mother, dont'it? Let Dickens explain us why
Mrs. Clennam and Mr. Dorrit are developed their behaviour....
From my point of view I believe that is very difficult to be fathers because nobody teaches you
and yuo have to learn it by yourself. When son are child it is very easy however, when they grow up things became complicate because you have to resolve some important problems which appear in their life and you don´t have the perfect solution for every one of them. Besides they ask you for help because they think you are the best person to resolve their troubles. Be it as it may, It is very difficult to be father.
I wanted to say to solve problems.
I am sorry.
In this comment only do I write to say that computers sometimes play us dirty tricks. Thus, when after having written a correct text, you decides to put a fragment in another place, you can make an unexpected error because you do it without considering the whole text. And, sometimes, we can make this kind of mistakes even if we only change a word. This was what occurred to me in my last composition. I had entitled it. “How does mankind adapt at hard conditions”. But today when I was leaving home to go to class I remembered that I had not printed the composition and before printing it, I decided to change the word “mankind” by the word “people”, but I forgot to change the auxiliary verb.
Finally, when I arrived home I saw the composition on the scream of my computer and the mistake of the title struck my eyes.
I am sorry Carmen but this afternoon in class I didn´t understand your question about the film "Help". When I got home I realized that it was about if the film is sad and, I want to tell you that the movie is not sad on the contrary, I believe it is a fun film and I enjoyed mayself watchin it although at the end some scenes may me cry but, I think it was because I was really into the character, not because the movie was sad.
I will try to watch those films you recommend, isidro, about people who have been affected by Love. Love is quite tragic... rather than pleasant...
I think that friendship is vital as far as marriage is concerned. I wouldn't think a marriage, in which the "members" were not friends, to be a happy one. I am talking about true happiness, not just "contentment". Of course there can be secrets -I would say there must be secrets to make it thrilling-, but over all, husband and wife should be friends, sharing thoughts, or rather, discussing matters -as they don't have to always agree-.
Carmen, I copy and paste your comment so that you don't have to look for it. You said: "the attraction is always there, but it doesn´t follow that the couple are going to end up in bed and at Church. Therefore they become friends." With this you are assuring that attraction comes first and friendship, second. Moving this statement on to my friend, this would mean that she could admit they feel attracted to her.
When I was saying that Reason overcomes certain feelings, not only was I referring to a way to protect ourselves from pain, but also to a way of blindness. I will explain myself. On one hand, when I think I am about to fall in love but then I go backwards -guided by my mind- because the relationship could be tragic, I am protecting myself from suffering. On the other hand, when men are attracted to me -it be shown clearly or not-, I may pretend I didn't notice: blindness.
As to what you say, Isidro, that you cannot know what your reaction would be, this is my experience. I can control it, which doesn't mean that "I am right" in all my judgements. Actually, so much controlling can prevent me from a great adventure! That is why I tend to always say "yes", to, afterwards, think a little bit more about it...
I liked very much the passage where Little Dorrit tray to justify his father’s behaviour when Mr Clennam visited him at Marshalsea in chapter nine. She was very shocked by Mr Clennam’s unexpectedly visit and a little embarrassed that all the family’s miseries were exposed before him.
She was concerned about what Mr Clennam could think; therefore, first of all, she tried to justify her father’s behaviour, though she knew that it was not easy to understand him without knowing his circumstances and his state of dire need.
We saw in this passage that the affection that she felt for her father impelled her to be proud of him, and to excuse his mean behaviour. Besides, the fact that she expressed her conviction of the honesty of many people of Marshalsea, and that she showed her attachment to such a miserable place, reflected the greatness of her heart, what was more evident seeing her behaviour with Maggy.
In my view, Mr Clennam became very touched by Little Dorrit’s personality, as these words show:
“When he saw how pleasure brought a rosy tint into Little Dorrit’s face when Maggy made a hit, he felt that he could have stood there making a library of the grocer’s window until the rain and wind were tired.”
I think that Little Dorrit is adorable. In my opinion, she is a guardian angel disguised as a woman.
Hi!!
Amparo I agree with you, I have found chapter VIII very fun. Recently, I´ve been thinking why I look for fun in the book, and I think that it is because there are a lot of sad things and I don´t want to keep them in my mind, I prefer to keep the funny ones.
Regarding Tip, if we compare Amy and Tip´s childhood we would have a clue of their adult behavior. He was always with his father, and similar people; but Amy had the turnkey, who has taught her some good things. Therefore, Amy is able to do productive things whereas Tip, in spite of having his sister´s help, is losing his time, and every day his behavior is more like his father´s.
I agree with someone (I don´t know who) who said that Arthur doesn´t fall in love with Amy (for now) but he is worried about his mother´s behaviour with her. He must suspect that there are a link between her and a family debt, and maybe, with a family secret!!
We´ll see...
Good evening:
I agree very much with you, Mónica. And I think that the chapters VIII and IX are particulary good. Not only for the things that Dickens tells, but by the way in which he does. Arthur certenly didn't expect he would to spend a whole nigth in prison, so now he can understand better to Amy and her family, and all the people who have the misfortune of to have to be there by all their time.
And I am not particullary found of Dickens' style, but I think he is superb when he discribes people or places. He must be a very observative person, whith a lot of imagintion. The beggining of Chapter IX is utterly impressive: the way in which he talks about those miserable people, those sordid streets...you actually can feel their lack of hope, their poverty, their despair, the sadness and disgrace of their lives, the rags,the dirt, the starvation, the ilness, the alcoholism, the lonelyness, the cold, the darkness, the wet and uncomfortable weather...In a sigle word, the outcasts, and the most outcasts of all. It's heartbreaking... I think I have only read once something similar in L' homme que rit (The man who laughs), by Victor Hugo, and he tooks three chapters to explain the same things that Dickens tells us in two simple paragraphs. I think that classic literature worths.
Gema, don´t look so many words up in the dictionary, this will hinder the pleasure of reading and you have level enough to read it and understand half of it? I should say more. The difficulty you find is making sense of hte sentence and this will get better the more you read. You will eventually see it as a whole picture; which is what you have to do and not as individual words!!
Keep going
Isidro; I think it would be interesting to organize that theatre.
I´ve liked your post about LD very much and the use of the word "dire", shows great confidence in your writing skills.
Moreover you fully understand the text, which me so HAPPY for two reasons, for you because you can enjoy reading in English and no less a person than Dickens and for myself, not only because you are an example to all those Spanish students that trudge along the difficult path of poroficiency in a language, and can see that reading is vital to obtain this proficiency, but also because I´m very proud to have helped along that "misty hill"(allusion to Mr. Lorry´s journey). Don´t answer me saying that you are not good at all the skills, because you will be, you have drive and endurance and this all one needs to get to the "English Club", the Club which includes all the people that can read in a foreign language with the same level of comprehension as they would have in their own.
Yes, you have perceived, and rightly judged Little Dorrit as a "guardian Angel". I´ve also liked the fact that you mention that she values the place and the people inside the prison, what a real thing this is. There are good people and bad evrywhere, inside and outside prisons, what LD teaches us is to the good and the positive wherever we are, it is such a waste to pursue what we have not, what we are not, I´m not speaking about "honest ambition", you remember Shakespeare´s words on this, which we read last year, cannot get them now, I am in Santander, that is of course very valuable, I am speaking about those people whose sole object in life is to get to places, very often little ones, which they believe to be "castles", the Stryver type.
Well done!
Good afternoon:
Truly, Dickens provides us of very good descriptions of the life in the jail. Because he had to lived it. It made me think about another book written by an author who also had to spent a time in prison, but, for very different reasons. It was Dostoviesky, in his book "From the Dead House". Terrible. If you think that Marshalesea was bad, you should take a look on that Russian jail. Very interesting to compare both. As I already said, the problem is that, today, in Spain, people don't read, or they only read when they are in high school, or they read thinks that they shouldn't read, not real litterature (Twiligth Saga, Harry Potter, Millenium novels, Da Vinci's Code and other crap of that sort), as a librarian I can tell you. We should know better the classical books and films. We are loosing the valuable things.
good evening everyone¡¡¡
Carmen, thanks for your advise, you have the reason that I have to read about the contest and don´t use the dictionary all the time, thanks so much I´ll do it I think is the only way to learning and to have fun reading. Rosa, I agree with you stay inside the jail must be very hurd indeed, anyway I have the impression that Tip is not a bad person, is like in the real life some people are lost in life, but the important thing is they are good persons, maybe I am wrong but this is my opinion about it. Today is saturday I am going out to enjoy myself having a drink with friends I hope all of you have a good time too. Isidro I like very much the way you writing and Rosa as well, I like one day writing like you, give me some advise to get it if you can I´ll be very please, I want to learn very much. don´t you thing the dicken´s descriptions are amazing sometimes is like to stay inside the history are you agree with me? gema xxxx
Gema I think Tip is a fool, indeed, but let me add that a "man about the world", he really exits. I see ROSA´S point of view when she says that Tip has not had the benefit of a proper home, a proper father, or even a friend like Bob was for LD, but quite honestly neither does LD and she comes out much better. No, Tip represents a type of man, and this man is common in real life. He interests me insomuch as to be able to identify him and run away from him!!!
María, attraction yes, but not necessarily physical attraction. in fact now that I think of it the best relationships from a woman´s point of view do not come from physical attraction but from feeling that there is a special bond between that man and you. I suspect that the bond is not present where they are concerned!! with them it is physical: What do you folks think?
Oliva, parents are vulnurable, human, etc. but then why is it that on the whole there is always a misgiving from their siblings to them? Indeed they do fail! I do not think that it is all parents and to all their children, but quite honestly rarely do they place themselves in the other´s position, do they? How worried are the parents we see about their children, I mean Mr. Dorrit and Mrs. Clennam? It is them teir SELVES THAT SEEM TO BE PARAMOUNT IN THEIR LIVES. uppps! too many capitol letters, sorry.
María, First of all, let me say that I am very thoughtful and that I think a lot of before making a decision. That's why I said in one of my previous comments that our thoughts were very similar.
However, I think it reasonable to leave open the possibility that in the future things might be otherwise. I do know myself and I am nearly sure that I will control a possible love or any other feeling in the future, but I admit that it is possible that I be wrong, because I think that can happen to me what has happened to many other people all along history.
As I always have controlled my feelings in the past and I trust in myself, I believe that I will control them in the future; so, I also could show my inner security. But, as I know that it is a simple belief of mine, I prefer to give an answer that includes not only my past experience but the unknown future possibilities. Therefore, I admit the possibility that things in the future could be different than in the past.
You say: “I can control it.” Your remind me the way of reasoning of some people in relation with the drugs. They use to say: “I control”, but at the end...........
You say that you “tend to always say ‘yes’, to,afterwards,think a little bit more about it...”
So, you first taste, and later you think. Really, don’t you see any risk ?
I'm sorry.
In my last comment:
..."I think a lot before making a decision..."
Carmen, physical attraction? I did not specify what kind of attraction I was referring to in my previous comments... I agree with you that some are interested in people and, it depending on how much interesting those we are "analyzing" are, we can feel more or less attracted to them. My friend, who rarely admits to be liked in that way, is the one that has catched two men's attraction. She keeps on giving them a name -such us "no, no, it is not love, only admiration", or "no, no, he doesn't love me, he just enjoys himself when he is with me"-. But it is for me to reveal the kind of attraction they feel for her... for she won't see it. I could write a novel about it.
I'm glad we are of the same opinion, Isidro. It is true that it can sound quite arrogant to assure that I can control my feelings and also can sound... lunatic! You compare me with a drug addict... I like it! Though I hope you are not right. As to the risk of "having drugs" -gosh, the simile is quite hard for me as I am against them-, it is dangerous indeed, a bit naughty..., but thrilling! I cannot help the pleasure of tasting drugs (my saying-"Yes" addiction), but then, I try not to fall for them.
I'm sorry, my English is very thick tonight.
Rosa, I agree with you that Dickens was a good observer, with a great imagination. But I would like to say that, in his case, his personal experiences had undoubtedly much influence in the dramatic force of the disadvantaged people he depicts in his works.
In my opinion, it is important to know that his father was imprisoned in Marshalsea’s prison during some moths, and that part of his family lived there with him, because then it was allowed by law. Meanwhile, little Dickens, with twelve years old, was taken in a friend’s house, and he began working in a factory to pay his lodging. Otherwise, he visited his father every Sunday and gave him the remainder money.
When his father was released, Dickens’ family continued living poorly until his grandmother died and his family received her inheritance. However, little Dickens was very disappointed when his mother forced him to continue working in the factory despite his young age.
So, he knew very well the way of living of the inhabitants of Marshalsea, the way of coughing their illness, the way of hiding their hunger using alcohol to keep them going, the way of shamble with their unsteady legs on the miserable muddy streets.
When I arrived from Toledo, where I spent the day, I got very surprised by the number of new comments. And, especially, I felt overwhelmed by your praise. I thank you very much.
I had started writing my last two comment before going to Toledo, therefore after returning I decided to finish and to post them. But I promise I’ll write about your comment later.
Carmen, in my last comment I mean your praise.
Well, Isidro, so did Dostoyevski, as I said. And the Russian prison in which he was (because of his political activities, I think) was even worse. In Marshalesea, we haven't read that they beat the prisoners. In the Russian prison, they did, and, in several ocassions, to the point of killing them.
I see what you want to say about Amy being a sort of guardian angel, altough I don't like very much Maggy's story. I think this is one of the things that make me think Dickens as a writer sometimes a bit dated. Don't misunderstand me, I think that such kind of terrible histories probably would be very common in those days, and unfortunately, we have some examples of histories that sort today (children from poor, desestructured families who have to suffer neglection and mistreatments, parents or grandparents who drink, or take drugs, or abuse them,girls and boys who suffer explotation or sexual offenses): perhaps our society is not really better that Dicken's one. But the way in which Dickens tells it is...well, for me is old fashioned. And Dickens is not bad at writting, as I have said already. Perhaps this was something relatively new in his time, and so it was good and surprising for the readers of those days, but, for us (for me, at less), is a sort of cliché.
Gema, I glad you like my writting, but I think they are not good enough.
Another website to watch Downton Abbey without irritating subtitles
http://www.fastpasstv.ms/tv/downton-abbey
Thank you very much!
Carmen, of course that Mrs Clemnan and Mrs. Dorrit are worried only by themselves, the first one trying to clean her own sins and the second one being as blind as possible in order not to suffer. What I'm trying to explain is that a time cames in the life of any sibling when we realize that our parents are human beings and then is our time to forgive and forget as much as we can. If we remain in misgivings whe should suffer the rest of our life. So let us be paramount in our lives. Our parents have taken their own decisions, but we shouldn't be attached to this. It's a hard step, but, from my own experience, is the only way to have health relationship with our parents.
Next, I went to watch on "The Help". First of all, thank you for encouraging us to see it. I've found it very interesting. From my point of view, Aibeleen is an example of good parenthood: The way in wich she cheers the litle fatty blonde girl up when she's leaving is an example of how do the right thing. She's such a good mother, in spite the children aren't hers!!!!.
Then, I've been reading chapter X and again Dickens shows us his sense of humor: The description of Junior Barnacle and how was he singeing several part of his body plus his troubles with the eye-glass are hilarious. Moreover there is a full depiction of British bureaucracy in that time, that remainds me another from Larra called "Vuelva usted mañana".
And also here we've again Mr. Meagles!!!!!As you told us, Dickens recall his characters....for what?
To know it whe should carry on with our reading.
Bye!!!
Carmen, It is always nice to receive compliments, but if they come from your best and most appreciated teacher, you feel overwhelmed. You know that my level was so low last year at the beginning that I was totally lost in your classes; therefore I think that without your guidance and encouragement I would not have advanced so far. I know I have a long way to go, but I have reached the point where I enjoy reading and writing in English, which is a major achievement for me. So, I am very happy and I thank you very much.
Gema, I thank you for your kind words. You ask me to give you some advice, but I feel myself very near to you in level of English, so I feel a bit embarrassed. However, I will tell you the things that I consider have been very useful to me in order to improve my level.
But before doing it, I want you to know that I think that you are in the well path because you enjoy reading. When you say that Dickens’s descriptions are amazing and that you sometimes live the story as if you were inside, you have already taken a step ahead. And, as Carmen said to you in a recent comment, “ try to see the reading as a whole picture.... and …...keep going”.
So, keep going and enjoy; and be very attentive at Carmen’s advice, because she never talk without sense.
I think that Gema’s idea of telling our experiences can be very positive if all of us do it, not only me. So, it would be very interesting that all of us should say the things we think have helped us to improve, because this way everyone can benefit from the experiences of others. But, as this comment is already too long, I promise to tell you something about my experience at another time.
Hi!
I´m shocked with chapter X. Oh! It´s amazing how he tells us what are we living nowadays. It´s horrible to try to make some kind of business in government offices.
The sentence: "How not to do it" It´s incredibly true nowadays, more these days when we can see hustings all the time. They always promise things that never happen.
Moreover, talking about good descriptions, I want to point out on the Mr. Barnacle one, when Dickens says that he is as if he were "sitting for his portrait to SIr Thomas Lawrences all the days of his live".
On the other hand, I have to say that I don´t agree with Rosa. I think the way Dickens describes the characters it´s superb. Most of the times, he gives us a side full of sense of humor and, for me, it´s not old fashion at all. I know people who describe things like him every day. Maybe, he is exaggerating some features a little bit to makes us understand better.
Here am I, between lessons, reading you -I should be reading the Aeneid.., but never mind-. As Isidro has suggested that we all should tell our experience learning English, I will do it, very briefly. First of all, you need a good teacher that manages to motivate you -to enroll in the EOI is a first step, which indicates already your good intention, but this is not enough-. After that, read and write, read and write, read and write. Write as much as needed so that you find yourself, one day, unexpectedly, thinking in English. Then, move to England and improve your listening and speaking skills.
Rosa, you say that the way Dickens tells Maggy’s story is old fashioned. In my opinion, the way of telling the story is just his best value. Moreover, I think that Maggy’s story is not something that be incidental but something required to show the true dimension of Amy’s generosity.
In my opinion Dickens’ works have an excellent level of perfection, therefore they are classics that don’t age over time. He achieves to create an imaginary world where the characters of his stories seem to emerge alive from the pages of his books, showing their inner feelings and emotions in a way that the readers get caught from the beginning to the end.
Dickens imaginary universe arises so vivid and so full of details that our reading is like if we were seeing a film. Thus, we see all characters’ features: their gestures, their concerns, their desires and emotions; we see the wounds of their feet stained with mud and cut by the sharp stones of the road; we see the fatigue and the hunger reflected in their resigned eyes and in their haggard faces...... And sometimes, in the midst of all this misery, we see a noble soul emerging full of generosity and kindness, which shows that, no matter how adverse the conditions be, there is always room for hope.
So, Dickens’ level of perfection is very difficult to match.
Good morning:
I agree very much with you, Olivia. I don't like Dickens when he is a tearjeaker, like in Maggy's story, or in A Christmas Carol, when he is telling the story of the crippled boy. And, Isidro, I think you misundestand me. I think that all the staff whith the retarded and poor children put there in order to be pitifull, and make Amy nicer... it's just XIX th style. But when he is ironic, like in Chapter X, he is in his best. This chapter is just fantastic. Very funny, and extremely inteligent the way in which he ironizes with burocracy. And you can realize that today we have exactly the same!
You are talking very much about if Arthur loves Amy. Well, I think he doesn't love her (yet), but he is intrigued, because she is a misterious woman, and Arthur's mother seems to be mean to everybody, but not to her. Why? And now that Arthur has found out her whole story, he is becoming more and more interested about her.
It is certain that LD is very good, but I would not say that she is strong: she is the head of her family, she has got job for her brother and sister, for herself, she mendes her children's clothes, she does not have dinner and she gives her dinner to her father...like her father says: she is his support! but she has not the strongest to ask her brother and sister their duties. At the same time I think that it is not a good way to resolve all the problems of her family. They must live a real life; it is not a good idea that her father does not know the truth about his children: Tip is a prisoner, she herself is working...how will it finish? I think that the truth is the best way for living and Little Dorrit must teach to Tip and Fanny that they have to find their own life and their responsabilities: why is she-Little Dorrit-who has to take care of their father? I think it is an unjustice that she does not ask her brother and sister what it is their duty.
I do not think that Mr Clenam has fallen in love with Little Dorrit, I think that he is moved by compassion. He is a deep person who likes analyzing the situations or the people who are around him, and Little Dorrit has caught his attention; he is very intrigued by the relation between Little Dorrit and his mother.
Hi everyone:
Isidro, I've just read your last post and I feel amazing, do you really get that level in only a year? Of course you shoul have worked a lot but I sometimes feel lost while writing. I agree with you and Rosa: If we want to improve we should write and read.I've been reading regularly english books, magazines, newspapers... the last two years or so, but I'm not confident yet about writing. I'm going to keep on doing it, and your example encourages me very, very much. Moreover I do like Carmen. I think she's clever in her teaching and I also like the way in wich she tries to make us think about english from a high perspective. I'm learning english because I like english culture. I started to do it because of, being an actress, I would like playing Shakespeare in english. I've done it in spanish but the music in his words are too much better in his own language. This year I've discovered Dickens and I'm enjoying so much his reading that sometimes I can stop doing it.
And finally, and again agree with you, Isidro, I believe that Arthur and Amy will fall in love, after having suffered lots of changes, but not yet.
Olivia, I have liked very much your last comment. It is a pity you don’t write more.
It is true that the relationships between parents and children are sometimes complicated. Parents, specially mothers, use to extend their protector zeal and their influence beyond what is convenient, because for them their children ever remain little children. But when the children became adult, they can’t stand any interference or attempts of control.
In my opinion, it is necessary understand that the generational conflict has always existed and affects us all. Therefore sometimes people accuse their parents of the same things they do without realizing with their own children. So, it is necessary to be sympathetic to have good relationships with parents and children, but sometimes it is not easy.
Olivia, what a coincidence! You posted your last comment, while I was writing mine. I will write something about what you say, in another moment
I'm sorry, Isidro, but I don't agree with your last comment. Experience has taught me that usually mothers are not who protects the children the most (except if they are sons, and there is a single child). Usually fathers are more protective whith children, specially if they are daughters. I don't know why, but it's like I have said already.
Perhaps it's because fathers usually don't spend as much time as mothers with the children. When there are more children, usually they don't have this problem, or when the children are almost of the same age.
And don't misunderstand me. I think I must be fair whith the book, and that means to tell what things of it I like and what I don't, and why. I can't help to think that some things are a bit like soap opera stuff. Feuilleton. I suppose that it is because, during XIX th century, Dickens and many other writers first published their works as serial literature. But I think that other things of the book are just magnificent, and reveal a gifted writter.
Hi!!
I want to comment some things about the parents-children relationship. I have some friends with children and I love seeing at the parents and children behaviour. For example, I´m going to remark two ones whose sons are more or less the same age.
The first is always very worried about what is her son doing all the time, eating, preventing his falling down... He is able to do nothing neither he does ride his bicycle nor play with other childer, because he fear them. And you can´t bring closer him without being inspected for him some minutes before.
The second gives freedom to her son and he is a very incredible boy, he gives you a kiss, instead he doesn´t know you, he ride his bike lonely (not only by himself than only with two wheels!) I mean, he can do everything without being helped.
With these two examples I daresay that what LD is doing with her family is not the best, because, as Oliva said, she must teach them to carry their own live.
For me, the most difficult task in live is being parent and give freedom to your children, because I think a mother always wants to protect their children from suffering.
Well, it´s a very complex issue to talk about.
Rosa I think that you are right that Dickens sometimes exaggerates and that some passages are too much tearjerker. But in the case of Maggy, I don’t think it be specially tearful, because in spite of her being an unfortunate woman, the final idea that remains, in my mind at least, is that she achieved to manage on her own.
I had found another passages more mawkish than this. For example in “A tale of two cities”, the passage in which Lucie met her father for the first time in the garret where he was imprisoned. I remember that when I read that paragraph, I could avoid to write a comment in the blog saying that I thought it impregnated with an exaggerated sentimentalism. However I recognize that, even in this passage and in many others like this, the way of telling the story is masterly.
In my opinion, the historical context affects all writers of all ages, and our time is not an exception. Therefore we can not consider that our time is better than another and that we can judge a different time from the point of view of the dominant aesthetics ideas in our time. And I think that to be fair with a book is to judge it from his own context.
Otherwise, of course, we always can say what things we like and what others we don’t like. And, in my opinion, it is better that we disagree, because this way we can continue writing. But one thing is to say that you don’t like an aspect of Dickens’ work and a different one is that you say that the way Dickens tells the story is a sort of cliché, or that some thing of his work are a bit like opera soap or feuilleton.
Good morning:
Of course, Isidro, not all Dickens is a soap opera, but I can't help that some things recalled me that and give me the impression that they are put there in order to give pity, but I suppose that it is because of the audiences to whom Dickens adressed. No writter is perfect: Victor Hugo is very often very exagerated, Cervantes is sometimes a little dull, and Poe can seem obscure and pedantic. They were other times, and the sensibility of the people was not the same.
In other order of things, I watched yesterday the first chapter of Dowton Abbey, which I was very eager of watching it. Altough sometimes the story drags a bit, and is a little predictable (specially if you know Upstairs and Downstairs and The remains of the day) the acting, direction, music, scenaries, atmosphere...are quite good. And I find the period in which the series is set most interesting, because they had a lot of drastical changes in a very short time (the sinking of the Titanic, the Great War, the Russian Revolution, the Avant- Garde movement, the Roaring Twenties, the fall of the Austrian Empire...), and you can actually see the consequences of those changes reflected in the story and the characteres of the series. Very interesting characteres, by the way.
Good morning:
Of course, Isidro, not all Dickens is a soap opera, but I can't help that some things recalled me that and give me the impression that they are put there in order to give pity, but I suppose that it is because of the audiences to whom Dickens adressed. No writter is perfect: Victor Hugo is very often very exagerated, Cervantes is sometimes a little dull, and Poe can seem obscure and pedantic. They were other times, and the sensibility of the people was not the same.
In other order of things, I watched yesterday the first chapter of Dowton Abbey, which I was very eager of watching it. Altough sometimes the story drags a bit, and is a little predictable (specially if you know Upstairs and Downstairs and The remains of the day) the acting, direction, music, scenaries, atmosphere...are quite good. And I find the period in which the series is set most interesting, because they had a lot of drastical changes in a very short time (the sinking of the Titanic, the Great War, the Russian Revolution, the Avant- Garde movement, the Roaring Twenties, the fall of the Austrian Empire...), and you can actually see the consequences of those changes reflected in the story and the characteres of the series. Very interesting characteres, by the way.
Hi!
I want to remark something in chapter X which is very funny, at least for me. The second conversation between Mr. Barnacles Junior and Mr. Clennam. Arthur repeats the same clause because his interlocutor is doing it as well.
Not only can we see here that Mr. Barnacles is not very wise but also that he is unaware of that.
I happened to me once, and I did the same as Arthur until the person I was speaking to changed his speech.
It is true thah all the characters who appear in the novel, we can find them nowadays in real live.
It is amazing that we have already read more than a hundred pages of Little Dorrit and the story and the characters are still being introduced to us. Little by little, Dickens gives us some important pieces of information that start to fit one into another. For example, in chapter X, we find out something about Mr Dorrit’s most influential creditor, Mr Tite Barnacle, the head of a family who runs the Circumlocution Office, the main department under government. The nepotism and corruption seem to be two of the main characteristics of this family. Through the incompetence and inefficiency of this department and, consequently of this family, Dickens does a real portrait of official bureaucracy that one could extrapolate to other countries (Spain, maybe) and other periods of time (Twenty First Century, perhaps). Very rarely is it possible to read such a passage that is exactly a mirror of plain reality: Mr Clennam being sent back and forth to one bureaucrat to another, to the Circumlocution Office to Mr Barnacle’s home without getting any straight answer.
On the other hand, in chapter X as well as in chapter XI, we meet again with some characters almost forgotten because we left them in the beginning of the book and, apparently, they have no connection with the plot settled in London. These characters are Mr Meagles, Mr Clennam’s travelling companion, and the two birds at Marseilles prison, Monsieur Rigaud and his comrade, John Baptist Cavalletto. I am looking forward to discovering what interesting story will relate Amy Dorrit and these two men of uncertain reputation because, after reading Tale of Two Cities last year, I am sure there must be some relation, in Dickens, in the end, all is linked up!
I have enjoyed reading chapter X although the begining of this is a satira about the Circumlocution Office, it makes me think how similar it is in our society nowadays. Finding a lot of things as they happen now, for examplo if you need to resolve something in the Administration, they send you from one Department to another with no response until you end up exhausted. Then, is when you find someone who works properly and gives you the right answer.
Monica, I agree with you about the chapter X.It's a whole reflection of what is happening nowdays.
On the other hand,I would like to say that I burn with desire for knowing what happened with Mr.Willian Dorrit.I mean,what person could have got,perhaps through crooked deal,that the Little Dorrit's father was locked in a prison.Mr.Clennam ,bit a bit,is going ro discover it.In addition,It seems to me that Arthur doesn't belong to that tangled world.He is a sound and honest man
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