According to some Little Dorrit is "one of the most significant works of the 19th Century".
14 de octubre de 2011
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Wilkie Collins
Quiénes somos
- EOIGoya_Inglés
- El Departamento de Inglés de a Escuela Oficial de Idiomas (EOI) "Goya" se suma con este proyecto de blog, con el blog de teatro y con su página de vídeos en YouTube a la explotación de las nuevas tecnologías como parte de la enseñanza de idiomas en la enseñanza pública en Madrid. Un cálido agradecimiento a CMF, sin cuya colaboración esto no sería posible.
Concurso 2007-08
524 comentarios:
«El más antiguo ‹Más antiguo 201 – 400 de 524 Más reciente› El más reciente»Olivia, thank you very much for your kind words. I think that you undervalue yourself and at the same time you overestimate me. You say that you sometimes feel lost while writing, but what I see in your comments is fluency and clarity of ideas.
I want you to know that I also have difficulties writing. My writing is not spontaneous, I have to think to choose the appropriate sentence or the best word; and I use frequently the Wordreference dictionary because there are many words that I know if I see them written but they don’t come into my mind when I need them.
I think that Carmen is right when she says that the more we read and write the better will be our skill in the different aspects of the English language, therefore I read and write very much, and I recognize that I have improved a lot. However as my level was very low when I enrolled for the first time in the Language School, I still have very serious problems in some aspects specially in listening and talking.
This is my third year in the language School because I am repeating 5th course. My first year in the School I enrolled in the 4th, six year after having passed That’s English’s courses; so, my early days were very frustrating for me, because I did not understand anything and only was I able of constructing simple sentences with much difficulty.
Such was my gap with the average level of the class that I was thinking of leaving the course. However, though with difficulty, I managed to keep the pace thanks to my teacher, Marta, that helped me very much. At the end, Marta decided that I passed the course, though my level was not good enough, perhaps thinking that it would be better for me, in case of needing to repeat, to repeat the next course.
So, you can imagine my torture trying to follow Carmen’s rhythm last year!!! I was so lost in her classes that I took refuge in reading “A tale of two cities” and in writing in the blog, following a strategy I had used the previous course, according to the importance given to writing by Marta and Carmen.
Last year I could not do the exam and if I had done it I would failed. So,It is my second year with Carmen, what is a trait for me.
I had thought to spend this course more time listening than reading or writing, but I think that I have fallen into a fatal trap and I can’t escape.
So, Olivia, courage!!!!! that we all have difficulties.
Folks; I have spent 1 hour writing a post and it...disappeared!!! I am so frustrated!!! I will try to summarize what I wrote:
ISIDRO: thanks but teachers without good pupils are valualess..you did it.
GEMMA, good idea, I will tell you what helped me improve my English: reading. I was at school then, but the path to profiency i achieved with reading.
MARÍA, I hope your attraction for drugs is a metaphor, je je
MONICA OLIVA, parnets sometimes don´t let go because to retain children in the nest with them. it is selfish. little dorrit is not lke that, she wants Tip to leave but it is him that doesn´t, he is lazy immature and quite silly, altogether not wnat a man ought to be.
ROSA I´m so sorry to read that Dickens´ writing is old fashion. I take Isisdro´s view in his post 15th November (by the way superb) 23.49, and agree that what Dickens shows is human nature a bad one, maggie´s family, and a good one, little dorrit´s thus Maggie conveys this, is used to show this, how can it be old-fashioned?
Folks; I have spent 1 hour writing a post and it...disappeared!!! I am so frustrated!!! I will try to summarize what I wrote:
ISIDRO: thanks but teachers without good pupils are valualess..you did it.
GEMMA, good idea, I will tell you what helped me improve my English: reading. I was at school then, but the path to profiency i achieved with reading.
MARÍA, I hope your attraction for drugs is a metaphor, je je
MONICA OLIVA, parnets sometimes don´t let go because to retain children in the nest with them. it is selfish. little dorrit is not lke that, she wants Tip to leave but it is him that doesn´t, he is lazy immature and quite silly, altogether not wnat a man ought to be.
ROSA I´m so sorry to read that Dickens´ writing is old fashion. I take Isisdro´s view in his post 15th November (by the way superb) 23.49, and agree that what Dickens shows is human nature a bad one, maggie´s family, and a good one, little dorrit´s thus Maggie conveys this, is used to show this, how can it be old-fashioned?
Now I have posted the shitty summary twice!!!! Sorry folks, but you see that where computers are concerned I am certainly STUPID.
Isidro, i´ve read your long post and see how much work you have done in three years only!!! Better still!!. i think it is a good idea to try and work with your listenings and talking. we are going to do exchanges with university students and I recommend this to you and...what about spending a time in England? why don´t you exchange houses with a Bristish family for a couple of months? go ahead and try, it would be fantastic. Go with your wife, then you would have to do all the talking, spring time would be great. We will ask María to help.
Folks; I have spent 1 hour writing a post and it...disappeared!!! I am so frustrated!!! I will try to summarize what I wrote:
ISIDRO: thanks but teachers without good pupils are valualess..you did it.
GEMMA, good idea, I will tell you what helped me improve my English: reading. I was at school then, but the path to profiency i achieved with reading.
MARÍA, I hope your attraction for drugs is a metaphor, je je
MONICA OLIVA, parnets sometimes don´t let go because to retain children in the nest with them. it is selfish. little dorrit is not lke that, she wants Tip to leave but it is him that doesn´t, he is lazy immature and quite silly, altogether not wnat a man ought to be.
ROSA I´m so sorry to read that Dickens´ writing is old fashion. I take Isisdro´s view in his post 15th November (by the way superb) 23.49, and agree that what Dickens shows is human nature a bad one, maggie´s family, and a good one, little dorrit´s thus Maggie conveys this, is used to show this, how can it be old-fashioned?
17 de noviembre de 2011 10:21
Carmen dijo...
Now I have posted the shitty summary twice!!!! Sorry folks, but you see that where computers are concerned I am certainly STUPID.
Isidro, i´ve read your long post and see how much work you have done in three years only!!! Better still!!. i think it is a good idea to try and work with your listenings and talking. we are going to do exchanges with university students and I recommend this to you and...what about spending a time in England? why don´t you exchange houses with a Bristish family for a couple of months? go ahead and try, it would be fantastic. Go with your wife, then you would have to do all the talking, spring time would be great. We will ask María to help.
17 de noviembre de 2011 10:27
do you see what I have done with my posts??? Good God! Sorry! computers are certainly not my forte....
I belive that this blog doesn´t work properly because always appear the same post. What do you think about?
I just know what happens. I´m sorry
I also liked very much chapter X. It is amazing the way that the Circumlocution Office turns around the problems, using empty speeches and diverting the business from department to department without making any progress. I suffered in this chapter the effects of the dizzy labyrinth of the Circumlocution Office. Didn’t you?
After having walked with Mr Clennam through the gibberish of the administration and after having listened again and again the different ways of “how not to do it” I got amazed and so tired as Mr Clennam, in spite of my visit being virtual. Therefore, when Mr Clennam got out of the building I felt a certain relief and I completely understood and shared Mr Meaggle’s anger.
Daniel Doyce was very quiet because he considered that there were many other cases that had been treated in the same way. And Mr. Clennam thought that it shouldn’t be a consolation, suggesting this way that he should be more critical; however, himself said goodbye thanking young Barnacle his politeness. Otherwise, Mr Meaggle was astonished by Daniel Doyle’s apathy, but his reaction, taking him by the collar and dragging him out of the office while he told him ironic indictments, was as well a way of escaping.
In my opinion, Mr Clennam and Daniel Doyce, being very calm and pusillanimous, resignedly accepted the authority’s hard designs. And so did Mr Meaggle, in spite his boiling blood; he couldn’t do anything but suppress his fury.
What other thing can a citizen do when the administration shows such inefficiency?
Good morning:
I totally agree, chapter X is fantastic! Very clever, and very ingenous, and very funny. It cracked me up!And, yet, it's bitter, because it's true, totally true. We have exactly the same things in our days. How many of us have never felt like Arthur when it was necesary to fix any kind of business conected with public administration? The descriptions of the Barnacles (notice the name) are hilarious. And wait, what is that? Do we have again Mr Meagles in the scenary? And he is angry? Wait moment. Probalbly something interesting is going to happen...
Hi!
I can say only one thought that came to me the other day, when I was reading chapter XII. Did you observe that all the women in the book (till now) are workers, maybe at home trimming, Knitting, needleworking, as a dancer... for example, Miss Dorrit, Mrs Plornish, Mrs Clennam... And most of the men don´t do nothing?. We can see Mr Plornish, Tip, Mr Dorrit...
And related with this, who was the only person whose information was important for Mr Clennam in the Circumlocution Offices. Was a man or a woman?...
Good weeken everybody and enjoy Dickens!!
Good evening:
This post is not about Little Dorrit, but is conected with English litterature, so I think it is not enetirely out of purpose.
Anonymous.
Well, I have just watched the film, and I would like to share with you, if you are interested in the film, what I think about it.
Well, most of Roland Emmerich's films are terrible, so I was expecting the worst, but the film involves an interesting question wich is not new. Did actually William Shakespeare write his works? I have already heard many strange histories about that, and all of them depart from the fact that we know only a few things about the life of Shakespeare. And there have been many important researches about that. Having said this, I am going to talk about the things that I have disliked of the film
I must say that I think that the film is overploted, and there are too many flashbacks, which are, at the beginning, quite shocking. And I am afraid that the film is not entirely accurated from a historic point of view. Well, this is a minor deffect, we have not going to watch a docummentary. But there was too much pirotechny, and the special effects were exagerated and annoying. And I disliked the way in which some characters are displayed. The poor queen Elizabeth is almost cartoonish: I don't think that real Elizabeth was like this. And Will Shakespeare is a pompous, ignorant, talentless fop. But what can you expect if he was not the real writter?
In the other hand, I think that the direction was not bad, and the acting quite good. The story is very ingenious, and so does the way in which things from the works of Shakespeare are mixed with the rest of the plot (references to Hamlet, Richard the Third, Titus Andronicus...). And I think that the recreation of the historical period was fine. And the guy who played Young Earl of Oxford was hot! So, I actually enjoyed the film, if you are planning to go to cinema this weekend, perhaps you should consider this film.
Monica, you say that women work and most men don’t do anything. I think that you say this to provoke men, because it is not true.
In my opinion, at least all this men work: Mr Clennam, Jeremiah, the turnkey of the prison, the husband of the Daybreak’s landlady.
We must consider Mr Clennam a worker with the same legitimacy as his mother. I know that she accused him of “journeying and junketting in foreign lands and living a life of vanity and pleasure”, but it is not true. In my opinion, she said this to play the victim, but we know that Arthur told Jeremiah that he had done “everything in life for the business”. And for now, we do not know what he will do in the future.
As well there is not any doubt that, though the Break of the Day’s landlady seems to be the manager, his husband works very much as a cook. Don’t you remember that the landlord still was clinking about in his kitchen when the company already had dispersed?
Otherwise, neither we can doubt that Jeremiah has worked all his life to Mrs Clennam, nor that Bob, the good turnkey of Marshalsea, worked all his life a lot, and that he even had time to take care of Amy.
And finally, as a joke, you can underestimate Dr Haggage’s work and his great responsibility as the surgeon of Marshalsea. We can’t forget the cheers of the other prisoners when they saw him going to attend Mr Dorrit’s wife. He is a bit expensive, but you must recognize that he is a good professional that is able to work in very hard conditions.
Good nigth:
Isidro, you are rigth, but I think that Monica has a point. Well, it is true that William Dorrit does do nothing, but his brother, Frederick "Dirty Dick" makes his living. But tell me about Arthur. It's true that Arthur spent many years working hard in China, but now he wants to leave his parents' business. And I am afraid that Dr Haggage, despite all your sympathies, does not work pretty hard. If you read carefully the piece, you will notice that he really doesn't do a great deal (except to drink a lot of brandy). I think this is not a joke, or material for a joke, in nineteenth century many women died because of her pregnancy or problems derived for labor. Altough Dickens tries to tell it in a funny way, actually, is not funny at all. If I were into labor, I wouln't want for anything in the world to have a person like this close to me. And he was a doctor in a ship, I think I remember, but now he has a worse job. Why?Perhaps he is running away from a sue for neglection, or some like that. Think about that...Perhaps he is not just a merry wino. O f course,I know you are joking, but think about that.
So, in my opinion, Monica wanted to say that boys quite more often that girls, and are not so reliable, which perhaps is true.
Rosa, it is not necessary to read carefully the piece to notice that Dr Haggagy was all time drinking brandy without doing anything. My joke consist in presenting him as a worker, what I consider a very innocent joke.
In my opinion, it is a great value Dickens’ ability to show the social problems of his time with humour and irony. You are right when you say that what Dickens tells is not, in itself, fanny at all; what is funny is the way of telling the story; and it is remarkable that he achieves to realize such an acid social critic, impregnating it with a layer of humour and irony.
I don’t know why you can consider clever, ingenious and very amusing Dickens’ description of the Circumlocution Office, Burnacle race included, and inappropriate to staining of humour Mr Haggagy’s behaviour. I wouldn’t want anything to do neither with Mr Hagaggy nor with Mr Barnacle, but I liked very much the way Dickens depicts both characters.
I can’t comment your last paragraph about what Monica wanted to say, because I don’t understand what you want mean. In my opinion, Monica wanted to provoke us and she has achieved her target.
Finally, I want to add Daniel Doyce to the list of workers men.
I'm sorry
..."My joke consistS..".
Hello everyone¡¡¡¡
I agree with all of you, chapter x is so interesting and of course is reflecting the political situation which is very similar than the actual one in our country. I found very fanny the situation when Arthur is going to place to another place asking and trying to found information, it is similar here the bucocracy when you go to a Offcial Office asking for something it is exactly te same it is so fanny¡¡¡¡
A am starting to read about the context without using the dictionary, so for that reason I feel happier...
good weekend for all of you....
hello¡¡¡
Good evening:
I'm sorry, Isidro, if you felt hurt with my last post. I didn't mean, and I don't think that Monica intended to hurt anybody. But I think she had a point, and it is not the same to joke about burocracy that to joke about something that it could involve death for somebody. I apologize if you felt bad. I didn't mean to hurt anybody, but to say what I think about the book: I always read your posts with great interest.
Of course, you are rigth when you say that one of greatests Dickens' talents is to be observer and to tell thinks of the real life in an ingenious, amusing way. And I am very surprised, because my previous experiences with Dickens were not positive at all. Altough it is not particulary tough, you have to get into his style. And I am very intriged about Mr Meagles reaparition. I will tell you...
goof afternoon all of you¡¡
I agree chapter X is it absolutelly superb¡¡¡ I find fantastic the description of Arthur at the Official Department trying to find information and going to a place and them to another place, I found so fanny, is like in Spain when you go for example to the Social Security and you want to ask for something is it exactly the same, It is amazing if you think this book is wroten so many years ago, and know we are living in our country similar situation about the goverment for example.
I am just trying to read about the context I feel much better than before because now I am strating to enjoy reading this book, thank you very much for all the advices than you gived me
good weeken for all of you...
Rosa, I didn’t felt hurt at all by your comment; if you see something in mine that may have made you think that I was hurt, I assure you that it is not true; on the contrary I am very pleased because we have had a lively debate.
Otherwise, I don’t think that anyone can have felt hurt by any comment of this blog, because, at least by the moment, all of them are very respectful. In my view, to show disagreements must be considered as an expression of the multiplicity of perspectives of the novel itself, and as well the consequence of the the different reader’s point of view. Moreover, in my view, the more different points of view be shown and the more polemic arise, the more interesting will be the blog.
I also read your comments and those of others with great interest, and my only purpose in writing is the same than yours, that is, to say what I think about the book or any other subject, in order to improve my writing which is my first target. So, even though I am also interested in other aspects like the logic of the text, I am more interested in the way I say what I think that in the thought itself.
Rosa, be sure that I will not be hurt by any of yous comment; so, I ask you to follow criticizing my posts without any restriction; and I hope that never should you feel hurt by any of my posts. With this hope I’m going to insist in a disagreement with you.
I disagree with you when you say that it is not the same to make a joke to something that involve death, that about bureaucracy. In my opinion, what is regrettable is that the situation that Dickens depicts is the reality of the prison system, health system, bureaucracy system, and in general daily life in the XIXth century. The fact that Dickens shows such a harsh reality with humour and irony is one of his values. We can’t forget that giving birth is a natural process that, even today, take place, in many cases, without the intervention of specialists. I saw recently a woman on TV telling with humour how she had given birth in a taxi; for example, she said how the taxi driver had tied the umbilical cord with a shoe lace.
Otherwise, if to give birth in Amy’s mother conditions is very hard, I don’t think that be less hard that a person should pass all his life in prison by the inefficacy of the administration.
Good morning:
Well, Iisdro I am glad because we have talk about that.
What I am trying to say, and I think that is the same that Monica tried to said,and I think I have failed in explaining that, is that I have the feeling that Dickens is not very kind with men in this book, because of something. Of course, not all the men in the book are in a bad. And if you read it carefully... Mr Rigaud is not a good example of anything, I would dare to say the same about John Baptist, Amy's brother is a bum, his father is not good for nothing,the uncle never washes himself (let's face it, altough it is not very bad, is very disgusting to have to live with someone like this), the doctor is a drunkard, Mr Clennam (Arthur's father), hid a terible secret,Jeremiah is posibly involved in a sort of dirty business, the Barnacles are lazy and pompous...Well, of course we have some good men: Bob the turnkey, Arthur, Mr Meagles...And not all the women are a cupcake: indeed, Arthur's mother is a terrible person, I wouldn't put my hand on the fire for Fanny, the drunk lady in the prison, who could had been a suitable girlfriend for the doctor (they share the same tastes), Maggy's grandmather, who drunk and hit her...And I have only mentioned the main characters that I already know...
Well, let's see what's going on with Mr Meagles and the rascal...
I have been thinking of the reason why Mr Clennam cares so much about Little Dorrit and wants to help her as much as he can. At first, his interest in Amy seems to be mere curiosity, which increases as his enquiry about her progresses. I am a little suspicious about Arthur’s intentions because very rarely is it possible to see such selfless and altruistic feelings from wealthy people towards poor ones, except for charity (whose sole objective is to clear up the conscience, by the way). However, Mr Clennam seems to be a good fellow and, perhaps, he merely sympathizes with Amy’s situation. Or, maybe, he feels remorse about he does not know exactly (his father hidden secret) and thinks that he owes something to Miss Dorrit’s family or is the indirect responsible of their wretched destiny. Anyway, being extremely generous, Mr Clennam pays for Tip’s freedom and, despite keeping this information secret to Amy, Little Dorrit is clever enough to know who has released her brother from debts. I am inclined to think that Arthur sees Amy’s misfortune similar to his, a young delicate woman without the affection and care of her family and whose life has been deprived of everything.
Hi, everyone, I´ve been very much secluded this week-end and unable to post or read the posts which I have just done this morning.
I think that the discrepancy of Rosa and Isidro is very "healthy" because it makes the blog interesting!!! I agree with Isidro in that which he says about irony and laughter, even if the topic Dickens is describing could involve and did the death of women and/or babies. Very often when death is hovering around laughter is at command too, who has not inadequately laughed at a burial?, when someone is dying? tragedy and comedy come together ever so often.
I do see Monica´s point where men are concerned, come on, there are of course men t work but there are many more who are absolutely disgraceful!!! I wonder why you don´t see this, Isidro? why is it that Dickens picks out the men as drunkards, lazy, and evil (Rigaud)? I think that possibly because they had the opportunity of showing their personalities more so than women who more inside the house and less open to "corruption". I have always maintained that all of us are capable of the worse if only placced in a position where we can do the worse!
Rosa, thanks for you wonderful analysis of Anonymous, I couldn´t see it this week-end, someone I knew passed away and I was with the family all weekend.
Hello!!!
Oh! I didn´t think that my comment would bring us to write about hurt. I didn´t want to hurt anyone, of course, and if I did this, I´m sorry!
Of course, there are some workers men, but the most of them, as Camens have said, are not very good indeed.
I don´t agree at all with you Carmen. It´s not a question only for working at home or outside, because in the Circumlocution Office we could see that it was a woman the information of which was given to Arthur that helped him.
As you have said a lot of times, things haven´t changed very much since Dickens wrote the novel, so, are women better and harder workers than men??? jajaja!!!
I´m joking, I hope no one feel hurted for my comment. As Isidro have said, I only want to practise and improve my english level.
On the other hand, I agree with Isidro. I think the way Dickens makes fun of things that are not funny at all is good. First, because the reading of the book is more interesting, and second because it shows us the features of the writter: he is very observant, he has a great sense or humor, and the most important, he is a very possitive person. He is capable of founding some good things in a really bad ones. To me, it makes the reading easier.
Good afternoon!
Good morning:
Did he? I am so sorry...To spend the weekend like that, generally is something terrible...
I only wanted to say that our last debate was originated but this first declaration:
“all the women in the work (till now) are workers.....and most of the men don’t do anything”
The first sentence “all the women work” is wrong because there are women that don’t work. For example: Mrs Meaggle, Miss Meaggle, Miss Wade,...
The secons sentence “most of the men don’t do anything” is also wrong because, because some men work. For example: Mr Clennam, Jeremiah, Daniel Doyce, Mr Frederic Dorrit, Bob ....
Rosa says (comment of 20 November) that what she wanted to say is that she has “the feeling that Dickens is not very good with men in this book”.
First of all, I want to say that it is a different debate. And in this new debate, I think that all of us agree in the essential. For example, Rose says that not all men are bad and “not all women are a cupcake”. Carmen agrees in this idea when she says that all of us are capable of the worse. And Monica laughs before the idea of women being better and harder workers than men. I agree with all of you.
In my opinion, Dickens depicts the ineffectiveness of the administration and the harsh living conditions of the working class in the XIXth century. Such is the effect of poverty and injustice in people, men and women, that they seem to be sentenced to live a miserable life of frustration, hatred and resentment. But in the middle of all this calamities we see a ray of hope, because we find people of good heart and solid principle, as Arthur and Little Dorrit, a man and a woman.
Isidro, from my point of view, not only are Mr. Clennam and Little Dorrit examples of “good hard and solid principles”, but Mr. Doyce also seems to be. I think it is important to remark this character because he has been doing his best to get the approval of the Circumlocution Office for twelve years without giving it up. Despite this business being frustrating, he, as his friend Mr. Meagles pointed out, has never complained, showing himself quite determined and steady in the sense that he understands that he has to follow the established rules whatever foolish they be. He endeavours over and over thinking of the great improvement his invention could provide for society.
I think that Dickens has represented the miseries of the mankind in the different characteres that appear in the book: the drink and the poverty we can see in some of the inhabitants of Marsalshea; the sadness and bitterness -and I think that the lie also-, we can see in Mrs Clenam; the bad way in which some of them are treated as Maggie... By contrast there are two characteres where the weakness is not so clear –both of them fight to overcome the difficulties- and we can see the goodness of their good hearts.
I think that Dickens has represented the miseries of the mankind in the different characteres that appear in the book: the drink and the poverty we can see in some of the inhabitants of Marsalshea; the sadness and bitterness -and I think that the lie also-, we can see in Mrs Clenam; the bad way in which some of them are treated as Maggie... By contrast there are two characteres where the weakness is not so clear –both of them fight to overcome the difficulties- and we can see the goodness of their good hearts.
Good Evening:
I can't undersrtand Mr Meagles behavior to Mr Doyce. I think he has not done anything wrong. Perhaps Mr Meagles is not as good as he seems, and he is a bit like the people who rule the Ofice of How Not to Do It. And Mr Doyce seems just the opposite to them.
In my opinion, Chapter XI proves that Dickens could be a very clever writer. He doesn't say us that he is Mr Rigaud, he never tells he is Rigaud and he doesn't want to be recognized as Mr Rigaud, but we actually know he is Mr Rigaud. He is just making us to feel as if we were in the book, whith the difference that we know he is Rigaud, like John Baptiste. And notice his actions. Surely that Mr Rigaud is a real bad lot, because his former companion, who probably is not an example of anything, doesn't want to spend a single night more with him...
Isidro; I think that you couldn´t have expressed it better and in a more conciliatory manner for all parts involved than in your post dated 21st Nov 16.48!!!! I´ve been thinking about whether men work harder than women or not. Of course there are, there have been some very hard-working men in the History of Humanity, we could mention several, and many unknown ones, but one has to admit that there are mnay that have "someone else working" for them. What about the most obvious being pimps,but of course there was this very obvious problem in USA with male blacks (as opossed to female blacks, very hardworking)I do realise that you will produce many examples contradicting me, but let´s face it women work. and what about ladies? That is totally different, those are a "species" existing at one time in history where ladies were mere ornaments, whose only job in life was to please and make the life of their husbands easy!! perhaps we should consider whether "pleasing" a man is an easy job....but that for another post
Beatriz,Dickens does show us the shortcomings of ourselves the difference from his approach and that of other writers is that he does it with sense of humour. What he describes is black, indeed so he tries to soften it out a bit. He is wonderful
Laura I completely agree with you. I named Athur and Little Dorrit as an exemple. I also think that Daniel Doyce is a very good person, and there are others; for example, I want to mention now Mr Plornish because he is an unemployed man, and I think that we must avoid to identify unemployed people with bad people, or with irresponsible people, as Tip, because many of then like Plornish have “tumbled into all kind of difficulties, and tumbling out of them; and by tumbling through life, got himself considerably bruised........(....).....and this was the general misfortune of Bleeding Heart Yard.”
In the case of Mr Plornish, we know that Little Dorrit said to Mr Clennam that Plornish was his friend, and that she had a good opinion of him. Moreover, Mr Plornish’s wife said that his misfortune.... “was not for want of looking after jobs......(.....)....”nor yet for want of working at them, when they are to be got. No one ever heard my husband complain of work.”
So, his problem is not a particular problem but a negative effect of the Industrial Revolution that affected many people, and that Dickens denounce in his works, not only in this novel.
We should understand this problem very well, because many people suffer today a similar situation.
Isidro what is wonderful is to find that those problems are our problems, and to see it so clearly!! i totally agree with you, not evryone is like Tip, Mr. Plrnish is hard-working but he seems to be unable to smoothen his path out in life. We have to consider currently, how hard it is to be out of work and sympathise with those who are in this situation. of course there is the case of Tip, how unfair that because of his sister and Bob he should get what the other more responsible man obatins not, because he doesn´t have the connections, how often do we still see this?
Folks click on "el más reciente" to be on the adequate place!!
Testing
Let´s see where this post appears... I have found a collection of absolutely brilliant post in this -Ahem, section. Well done Isidro, Oliva, Rosa and Laura, and María, too because you are trying hard and you will harvest soon and see the benfits of writing. Dickens can be a bit sentimental, I agree, but he captures the feeling of the reader, doesn´t he? I mean we identif, recognize that feeling if you see what I mean. The fact that makes him great is that the story is so weel built, there are so many characters that interweave their stories, that it is absolutely amazing that the reader is not lost. Then the mastery over the language is superb. and the way he sees into nature, and puts it across, simply.
Oliva, I´m glad you like me...it is a consolation to the teacher, because more often than no the student dislikes the teacher, particularly if he happens not to be of a mind with him/her... I also think you are very nice, no idea you were an actress...see if by the end of the year you can deliver the To be or not to be to us...we´ll try!
Well, I disagree with you Isidro. I don´t thing that Mr. Plornish were a hard worker. If that be true, why does he come home smelling as if he had drunk a whiskey bottle? Why does he spend money on drinking instead of saving it in order to buy food for his family?
It was Little Dorrit that said that he was a harder worker man, but I think Amy can´t do anything but speak good about anyone she knows.
Well, I disagree with you Isidro. I don´t thing that Mr. Plornish were a hard worker. If that be true, why does he come home smelling as if he had drunk a whiskey bottle? Why does he spend money on drinking instead of saving it in order to buy food for his family?
It was Little Dorrit that said that he was a harder worker man, but I think Amy can´t do anything but speak good about anyone she knows.
Monica, I didn’t say that Mr Plornish were a hard worker. I said that he was an unemployed person. And tried to underline that we shouldn’t avoid identify unemployed people with bad or irresponsible people.
I'm sorry, in my last comment:
..."I tried to underline that we should avoid identify unemployed people as bad or irresponsible..."
Hi Litle Family!
I've been disappeared for some days due to problems with my Pc.
It has been very hard for me because I'm finding very interesting the blog and your post.
So here I'am trying to keep the thread and don't miss anything. As I haven't got to much time I want to say the following:
Thank you very much Isidro for cheering me up. And thanks you too, Carmen, for encouraging me/us. I really believe you are a very good teacher... in spite of being treated as a creep!
Monica,Laura, Gema, Rosa...Hello! I will answer your post as soon as I could.
By the way, Rosa, I've found your review of Anonymous very accurate. I'm totally agree with you.
One more thing, on reading Chapter XIII I've feel an special rejection for Flora (on the one hand because she remains in the past, on the other hand.. what a way to tread Arthur as her current partner!And what about her love for porter, I think she's ridiculous) and her "Patriarchal" father...I feel suspicion about his relation with Tite Barnacle and I strongly believe that he's not that good.
And finally, Flora's heritage, her dead husband's Aunt, isn't she another example of Dicken's sense of humour?
Sorry for the mistakes, I'm writing
too much fast and have no time for revising.
Until soon.
Oliva
Good afternoon:
Olivia, I glad you have liked my review of Anonymous. I hope to answer soon your posts: I am only in the Chapter XI.
Monica, as I didn’t remember that Mr Plonish had arrived home smelling as if he had drunk a bottle of whisky, I read the passage again and I didn’t find any reason to suspect that he is a drinker. The only reference that I found about smelling is that, when Plornish saw Mr Clennam waiting for him, he became suspicious, because he owe money and therefore he always fears the arrival of a creditor. And this is the meaning of the expression: he “seemed to scent a creditor”
I think my last correction needs a new rectification:
…...”I should avoid identifying...”
Good Evening:
I think I have found an interesting clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1_I36qHDts
The entire film can be very tough...Altough, I enjoyed it when I watched some years ago...
I have found chapter XIII quite shocking, haven’t you? What have stricken me a lot are the coincidences, so well-conceived, that take place in these pages. It is amazing the way Dickens joins one character’s history to another’s: in the course of his enquiry about Little Dorrit, Mr Clennam meets Plornish, Amy’s dear friend; Plornish speaks to Arthur about his landlord Mr Casby who turns out to be not only an old acquaintance but also his childhood sweetheart’s father. And after visiting Mr Casby and his daughter Flora, Mr Clennam comes across (as we can deduce) John Baptist Cavalletto, who has just arrived in London and an accident has happened to him. Unbelievably... all the characters will end linked up!
However, what has stricken me most is the deep disappointment Arthur feels about his once boy-lover. How is it possible to have loved anyone so ardently and, after separating one to another, kept its recalling unchanged for years and years and, suddenly, felt almost ashamed of it? Here Dickens greatness is. The line which separates love from hatred is very thin and in the course of life all of us have felt or will feel at least once such a frustrating sentiment. In addition, Flora was his first love, a youth love and it is never (or should not be) the definitive. From childhood to adulthood, the personality, viewpoints, likes and dislikes change deeply and you detest what you once adored. What a tragedy life is!
In chapter XI, we saw how Rigaud became Larnier and how John Baptiste had to run away at night, if he didn’t want to become Larnier’s slave. Rigaud continues with his old idea of showing himself as a gentleman, but John Baptiste knows him very well, and therefore he got terrified with the idea of their being travel companions. However, as they have showed their intention of going to England, it is possible they meet again and that they play a role in the story hereafter.
The tribunal could not prove Rigaud’s culpability and the landlady of the break of Day doubted if he was a handsome man with a fine hand or if he was an ill-looking one; she didn’t see any reason to think that he was a bad man, but if she had seen his true face she would have resolved his doubts, but Rigaud is an hypocrite man, and only John Baptiste knows him well.
Otherwise, the landlady of the Break of Day seems to be a woman with a strong personality. She participated in the conversation of the clients and she received the support of the majority of them, when she showed her disagreement with the tribunal for acquitting the alleged criminal, while all the world thought he was guilty.
We see in this conversation two attitude that we can find today when people talk about this subject, each time that a horrible crime occurs: the position of those who give much importance to the circumstances in the origin of the crimes, and those who think, as the landlady, that there are bad people who are a danger to humanity and must be eliminated.
So, we have here the old question: are wicked men bad by nature or are social ill conditions what determine the criminals’ acts?
Good morning:
Well, Isidro, I quite agree with you. About your question (which is not a new one), I think it's a combination of both...
Good morning!
Well, Isidro I´ve read again the part of the chapter where I thought that were the reason of my declaration, but I found that it was my mistake, I misunderstood one word: "sandy-whiskered".
So, I have to beg you sorry.
Well! This kind of things happens when I don´t look for all the words I don´t understand! And it makes me angry!!!
So, excuse me again for making you to read the text again looking for a reason to give me.
Good evening!!!
Thank you Rosa for your brilliant description of Down Town Abbey!
To be honest this serie was not very appealling to me, until I read your opinion now I eager to watching it.
I agree with you folks, I was very surprised to see how little public administration has changed in so many years. Classics has the point in universal topics such us, love, friendship, jealousy, family connections and of course ineficient administration!
It is a quite funny chapter, but "The Patriarcal" is the best for me, how ridiculous a girl can be has no limits, and Flora shows the type os scene that everybody wants to avoid (as well for Arthur is unconfortable, but not in that way). Next chapter is quite promising..."Little Dorrit's Party"...see you soon!
Good Evening.
I am glad you like my commentary, Gemma, very much, but is not a great deal at all. Like Maggy, I take great pains to improve my English. I am trying to watch the second chapter of the first season, when I have watched all the first season, I'll watch the second one. Altough I think that "Downton Abbey" is very good, I must confess that the first time that I saw the boy the father wanted to marry him with one of the daughters, I began to suspect something weird about him...And I was right¡ So, it's predictable, I liked more "Upstairs And Dowstairs", which has a similar plot, and specially, "I, Claudius", certainly one of the best English TV series, and one of the best TV series of all the times. This is a "must watch", in my opinion. Even so, I'll go on with "Dowton Abbey", because the set is very well done, the English is beautiful and the historic period, very interesting.
I think that Chapter XII is terribly sad and bitter, and the worst thing about it is that we have today many histories like the Plornwish one. Altough I can't feel much simpathy to them. For some reason, Mrs Plornwish doesn't seem a very reliable person to me. And the husband admires Tip, when Dickens himself tells us that he should feel pity or reprobation to him. Even so, there are something good about them: they like Amy. When so many people are found of her, surely was because of something. And look the name of the place, and the explanation that Dickens provides: "Bleeding Herat Yard".
Monica, don’t Worry, I am always looking for reasons to write.
In my opinion, it is normal that Mr Clennam had a certain interest in seeing the beloved of his childhood, thought he should say to himself that his first interest was to know if Mr Casby knew something that could be useful to Little Dorrit.
Mr Clennam saw that Flora had become worse in all aspects. She was conscious of having changed for the worse, therefore she was very nervous and she talked without a rest, gesturing, tittering and giving to Arthur, from time to time, one of her old glances, but without the success of other time. On the contrary, if before the meeting with Flora, Mr Clennam could think that perhaps he would still feel attracted by her, when he left Mr Casby’s home, he felt relieved and knew that he never would feel any emotion for her.
Otherwise, Flora endless silly and ludicrous chatter can be more funny. Don’t you think so?
Hi!!
Gema, I agree with you deeply. Little Dorrit´s party chapter is amazing, I love this chapter. She shows us her courage. It´s incredible that she have enough strength to go to see Mr Clennam at midnight even when she suspects that she couldn´t return to her house. I don´t know for certain how might be to stand at midnight in the streets, but nowadays there is no possibility of taking a walk at midnight. And the fact that Mr Clennam followed them to be sure that they are save is amazing, is it not for us? There we have a real gentelman!
There is one thing that surprised me which take place in Mr Clennam´s lodging. It´s the thought of Amy that Mr Clennam may be a good father. What kind of woman thinks something like that of a man? What relation used to be between them? Only friendship or something more?
Little Dorrit has begun to leave her prison when she begins to think about Mr Clenam. She is thinking about a better life than she has now. On the other hand, it is the first time she does something that does not follow the rules as leaving the prison at night to thanks for Mr Clenam’s favor.
One more time, we can see the strongest of her nature. She does not complain about the cold, the rain, the darkness, the loneliness…She is not afraid of going out at night or sleeping out of the prison.
She is not like her father, who has accepted the situation of living and dying in a prison and he does not want to do any more; Little Dorrit wants to improve her situation: she wants and she imagines a better life.
In my opinion, the best thing that Mr Clennam could do is to get away from Mr Casby’s house to avoid a nightmare worst than the one he lived in his parent’s house, when he was I child. In his mother house Mr Clennam, being a naive chaild, suffered a lot thinking that he “was going to Perdition”, without Knowing the sin he had committed. So, in those days, his going to Mr Casby’s would be a sort of release, and Flora’s glances would be the source of his sweet dreams. But now, Mr Clennam’s situation is completely different; he is a free and mature man that can judge the reality with objectivity, therefore Flora’s attempt of catching him is doomed to fail.
Otherwise, if Flora’s naive glances and her silly chatter produced a bad impression in Mr Clennam, the seraphic patriarch with his nasty and faithful servant, and the enigmatic and incongruous Mr F’s Aunt are other reasons to avoid falling in the spiderweb of this bizarre family. And in consequence, Mr Clennam clearly marked the distance with Flora, addressing her as Mrs Finching, insisting again and again in giving her a name she had declared to be a dreadful one to her.
Oliva; who is being treated as a creep????? you or me???? I can hardly agree with you as I don´t treat people like that and do not feel treated in this way!!! However I thank you for your praise of my humble teaching.I like Flora... I don´t think she is a wonderful woman; if you see what I mean, nothing memorable in her character, but she is so funny!! Not that I would like to be like her, she is so immature, so much hooked onto the past, so silly in her comments to Arthur-very improper, Mr.Clennam, and yet so considerate with the Aunt..that I cannot but like her!
Laura, but precisely love is blind and deaf, too so mostly we love what we imagine the object of our love to be, and often what it is really like!!!This idea has been kept and cherished more as Arthur did not find another person to substitue her in his heart.
Isidro, my opinion is that there is wickedness in us. there are two sides to human beings, and education and circumstances balance the scales to either side depending on what we live. If we are surrounded by good and positive feelings we tend to be better, and if by negative issues we become corrupted. Hard circumstances are always negative to all of us saints excepting.
Monica, more than one person has liked this chapter very much, I think this has to do with comprehension, and the fact that we understand the novel better. Yes there has developed a strange relationship on Ld´s side towards Arthur, issuing forth from gratitude and the fact that Arthur has shown a deep interest in her welfare and that of her unfortunate family.
Beatriz, I cannot agree with you. Do you think that she wants a better life? I think that she would remain with her father always..in prison. She is used to that and likes it, her sister lives outside, she could leave like her but she has chosen to remain, no, her mind wonders, but she will remain.
Yes, Isidro, Arthur is horrified at coming face to face with what was, not what he thought it to be
Yesterday I spoke about chapter XIV. First I was nervous but gradually I calmed a bit and, I was able to tell you more or less everything about it. I would like to say that, I really liked this chapter, especially as Arthur tries to Little Dorrit and, with the sweetnes that he speaks to her and also as she admires to him.
To be honest I have to admit that I didn´t undertand well when she speaks about Coven Garden but now I believe that she was thinking about how would be a party in Coven Garden.
Mr Clennam can’t help thinking of Amy as a child; thus, in Little Dorrit’s visit, he insisted in her littleness every time he named her, and at the third time he called her “my child” Mr Clennam noticed a shade in her face and tried to justify his calling her Little Dorrit.
Poor Amy, she dreams lovingly of Mr Clennam, and he only think of her as a little child, by the moment. I think that some day he will stop feeling compassion and will begin feeling love for her. Don’t you?
In my opinion, though Mr Clennam is not conscious yet, his heart is beginning to beat at the same time than hers; he is already thinking to much of her and doing all he can for her; therefore I believe that a day is coming in which Arthur will not be able to live without her.
Otherwise, in my view, Amy’s visit to Mr Clennam was not so urgent. She is an intelligent and wise woman, but love is beginning to soften her brain. I can see any logic reason to go to Mr Clennam’s home at midnight, but one: love. So, this time love has been stronger than reason. But, from time to time, human beings need to follow the impulses of their heart in order to scape from an adverse reality, as in the case of Little Dorrit.
Good afternoon everyone:
In chapter XIII, we have several new characters introduced to us: particulary Mr Casby, who apparently is a good man, but, in fact, more than probably is not, the creepy Pancks and the anoying daughter of Mr Casby, Flora, who seems has not became more mature in twenty years. We already knew that Arthur had a girlfriend, but he had to leave her, because his mother didn't aprove: perhaps, after all, she was rigth and Flora and her family were not suitable persons. Perhaps, now, we are going to know more about that story. I don't think that in those times women usually talk to men like Flora does with Arthur in this chaptes, whose name, by the way, is very well chosen.
As I said in my last comment, Little Dorrit’s visit to Mr Clennam was not urgent, because he had announced that he would visit Mr Dorrit the following day; so she could see him in Marshalsea before his talking with his father. But she chose going at midnight because she was very happy and she could not wait until the next day. Her heart was full of joy and gratitude but, above all, the love was the force that impelled her to go immediately.
Otherwise, there is a certain artificiality in Little Dorrit discourse, because she talked with Mr Clennam as if she didn’t know who had paid Tip’s debt. However, if it were true, her visiting him at midnight to show him her happiness and gratitude would have been a complete nonsense.
So, I think that all the approach of this mutter is a little unnatural and false, because both of them knew the reality but, at the same time, they acted as if they were not aware. However, I understand Mr Clennam’s behaviour; he wanted to do the favor selflessly, trying to avoid that Little Dorrit should feel indebted with him. And I also understand Little Dorrit, because Mr Clennam’s attitude compelled her to be discreet.
In conclusion, in this circumstances, if the question was to be prudent, the visit was a contradiction, because Little Dorrit had to play the difficult and embarrassing role of talking with Mr Clennam about her gratitude to a unknown person.
Good evening:
I agree very much whith all the posts about Chapter XIII. I am sure that Arthur was very relieved
when he left that house whith such creepy family: the artful and aparently respectable father, the strange and disturbing old woman, the filthy servant or whatever he be, Flora with her nonsensical and inmature chattering...His own family, in comparition, seems like angels!Don't you think that perhaps someone of the family had something to do whith the sudden death of Flora's husband?
And...nobody has talked about a fact that distresses me a lot. Don't you think that the injured man could be John Baptist? And notice the end of the chapter, when you think that nothing else could happen, we have the injured man and Amy waiting for Arthur...
I don't agree with many posts about Chapter XIV. I don't think that Arthur and Amy could be in love. Of course, she is gratefull to him, but she doesn't love him, I think he is more a sort of brother-like, or father-like figure than a man who is in love, at the present, at less...and she sees him in this way. It's a very sensitive chapter, perhaps too much, written whith a great deal of skill. You can feel, again, the poverty, the hunger, the rags, and, specially, the lonelyness...all the things that the poor Amy has had to endure in her short and miserable life, and you actually pity her. Which I dislike is Maggy's presence during the interview between Amy and Arthur...well, surelly Dickens had some reasons to put her there, perhaps it was not proper that a young girl went alone to see a man during the nigth at those days, or perhaps he tried to do with her a sort of comic relief...which, in my opinion, is not funny, but annoying. But she was not going to leave her in the street, and her presence in the rest of the chapter is necesary, specially to make us to realize what the rest of the people who have met them, have already realized: one of them is a child, and the other, a woman, and it's not the first person that we think about. And I like very much the ending, whith the mysterious woman (it's almost like a sort of horror story), and, then, the kind parson who helps them.
Rosa, in my opinion, Little Dorrit’s love for Mr Clennam is masked by other feelings until now, but in chapter XIV we can start thinking that love is more than a simple possibility. How could you explain this words, if Little Dorrit’s heart were not touched by love?
“No for the first time. No, no for the first time. In little Dorrit’s eyes, the outside of that window had been a distant start, on other nights than this.”
And what do you think of Little Dorrit’s party? It is not moving to see her looking up the starts and the clouds passing over them, and her imagining that it was light, warm and beautiful and her dancing with Mr Clennam to delightful music?
I do see love in her behaviour. Don’t you? I think she also feels gratitude but, in my view, the gratitude alone does not explain a feeling so intense.
Otherwise, in my view, no one goes to anyone’s home at midnight, without a very important reason . Dickens could have put the visit at a different time, or he could have made meet them by chance, but in my opinion, he set the visit at midnight to highlight the absurdity, as a trait more of Little Dorrit’s love; because it is known that love not only eliminates the senses but is a kind of madness. However, as it was not a real madness, it was necessary that Amy be made accompany by Maggy to put a little of good sense in the midst of all this nonsense, lest anyone could misinterpret her behaviour, Mr Clennam included. Moreover, through Mr Clennam’s worry following Amy till she was near Marshalsea, Dickens shows that the loneliness of the night is not a good time to be on the street, not only by cold and humidity but by other unspecified dangers. And the “mysterious woman”, as a professional of the night, is not an horror story, but a sample of the underworld that inhabits the night.
Good afternoon:
I am sorry, Isidro, but I can't agree whith you. Perhaps is that you don't think about love like me. I can't see here anything romantic, altough, as I have already explain, we have very touching highlights in this chapter. And the scene between her and Arthur is very gentle... She went to see to Arthur because she is so grateful, and she can not wait, and she must see him alone, whithout witnesses (Poor Maggy doesn't count), because Amy is secretive, and a sort of misterious.
Of course, the prostitute is not a horror element, but it is the way in Dickens tells us the whole scene. Perhaps, because you are a man, you can't see it, but I think that, for a girl, the whole ending of the chapter is very disturbing, and you can expect that anything bad is going to happen to them. Fortunately enough, they only find the kind clergyman. If I see (or read about, we can check here how graphic Dickens can be) two defenceless women walking alone down a street, at high late nigth hour, I inmediatly think that something terrible is going to happen. And they were lucky, they only find the hooker woman... but it could be Jack the Ripper (well, Jack the Ripper didn't live at that time)...or something worse... I can't help it, perhaps I have watched too many horror films, but, in my opinion, is like that. I don't know if I have explained it well...
You haven't told what do you think about the death of Flora's husband (I am a bit paranoic, I know, and very found of murder stories), and about the foreigner man hit by a carriage at the ending of Chapter XIII...
Rosa, I think that we don’t have any piece of information about Flora’s husband death. In my opinion, Flora’s family is enough sinister without necessity of being involved in a crime. I could write about this possibility, without having any prove of this, only with the intention of provoke controversy, and as a way of writing a comment of two or three hundred words; but as you have anticipated, I only can say that there is no prove of anyone of this family having committed this crime. And if you ask me my opinion, I would say, only taking into account my intuition, that I only see meanness, mediocrity, selfishness and stupidity in this family, which are not small defects ; but I don’t see such a degree of wickedness as to have committed a murder.
And in relation to the foreign people that was hit by a car, Laura said some days ago that he was Cavalletto and I agree with her and with you, though the only prove we have of it is that he comes from Marseilles and he repeats the words: Ah! Altro! Altro! that seems to be his sign of identity.
So if Cavalletto is already in London, I think that we will soon see appear Rigaud , because I am sure that Dickens have reserved some role to them and, in the case of Rigaud at least, I think that its appearance will not bring anything good; unless he has become at last a true gentleman which I do not think.
Good morning:
Yes, Isidro, I quite agree with that. Arthur's family seems bad, but Flora's one is terrible! And most probably we are going to have news about Rigaud very soon...
Hi!
Carmen,I have to say thay I'm not sure about my understanding of the book.Sometimes, as it happened last week with some details of chapter XII, I misunderstand things, but I hope I'm getting used to understand Dickens.
Regarding chapter XIV, I'm quite sure about the fact that LD fell in love with Mr. Clennam,because she behaves as if she were in lovewith Mr. Clennam. As Isidro have said, when someone fall in love, starts to do things that don't fit with a reasonable behaviour. It has no sense the fact that LD went to see Arthur in the middle of the night, knowing that they (he and Maggy) would have no place to sleep that night. I think that kind of things are made when someone fell in love and don't value the consecuences of oneselve behaviour, one only can think in seeing the person who loves, taking in no account the consecuences, neither for her nor for the rest.
And finally i wanted to point out Maggy's presence in Arthur's lodging. Of couse it is weird to have her at the same place where Amy and Arthur are talking about very serious issues, but the way Dickens make her no part of the conversation, giving her an easy fall asleep shows us, again Dicken's wisdom to makes her an her foolish behavour away of the conversation, though he awake sometimes (I thing when it was neccessary because of the conversation... you know)
Good weekend everyone!!
As I read last comments, I thought about another theory, of course we are at the begining of the novel , so it is very easy for us to make different opinions and arguments.............. but , do you really think that LD is falling in love with MC???? or perhaps is it only a feeling of affection????????
When you are a "poor" girl ( in all senses) and you have nothing....it is very easy to be blinded with the feelings and interest of anybody!!!!.
But.... we will see if this possibility is correct or not!!!!!
Because LD works to support her family, she is out of Marshalsea working and getting clothes for them and she is very used to do it. Nobody takes care of her.... so it is very possible mixes the feelings.
MC is very lovely, kind, careful and smart with her ....even he fells the desire of taking care of her and even her family.
Good Evening:
Well, Reyes, in my last posts I said -quite plainly, I think- that I don't think that Amy is in love with Arthtur. Of course, she is grateful to him.
I have just read Chapter XV, and I have like it much. Very much. We have again Affery involved in strange situations, and her husband in strange business...very mysterious and secretive which concerns Arthur family... and Amy!And we have a very interesting chat between Jeremiah and Mrs Clennam... And I am beginning to suspect that perhaps she is not as strong and stern as she seems...I am not telling more, I am not going to ruin the chapter to you.
Have you realized that we have almost 300 posts and we are only in the chapters XIV-XV? And we are not many...
Well...first of all , I must correct myself in last comment in one of the sentences: "she is used to "doing it".
Now Rosa..I agree with you about LD´s feelings. Today I have read chapter XV, as well...and yes it is very interesting.
Until now the novel has all ingredients to be a " mystery, intrigue and suspense novel", like the best-sellers.
This chapter , as you say Rosa, is very misterious. I think Jeremiah has a very important and decisive role in futures chapters because his attittude and behaviour is not like a simple servant.
The way he speaks to Mrs. Clennan is not very usual, I guess he has much influence upon her.
There is something secret between them, something dark related to her son and Amy...but what strange thing are there between them?????
300 post??? Ufff...this year we " bust the blog"!!! Only Dickens is capable of getting that and much more.
I’m sorry, in my last comment:
…...”with the intention OF provokING controversy”...
It is frustrating to me to discover, from time to time, elementary mistakes. Expressions of this kind are so frequents that I write them without thinking, as an automatism, therefore I get very surprised when I see a fault like this.
In my opinion, Mr Dorrit seems to provoke in the others an admiration that in my opinion is excessive. I think that Little Dorrit reverence to her father is the consequence of her affection as a sensible child that has ever known his father in an unfortunate situation. She got aware, being still a very young girl, that her father was suffering loneliness and lack of liberty, and she idealised his forbearance and resignation. But I think that Mr Dorrit’s feeling of superiority is completely out of place and disables him to act and to assume any responsibility in relation to his family, letting Amy to take the weight of the decisions. This way, Mr Dorrit has become an useless man, whose only concern seems to be to display a ridiculous role of Marshalsea’s aristocratic character, that is only based in naivety and in the indifference of the others.
Thus, Mr Dorrit puts himself out of reality and his life is reduced to practice the ritual that guarantees him to receive homage of everybody. Amy realize that his father’s behaviour of getting money from his visitors is not appropriate and feels shame before Arthur, but she can do anything, because his father already was like this long before she began to be conscious, and she must accept his father as he is, though she dislikes his behaviour.
So Amy acts like everybody. Do you remember our debate about relationship between parents and children? Children discover one day that parent are not perfect and father have to accept that children don’t realize their dreams, that is the eternal conflict.........
However, It is surprising that his daughters try to maintain this fictional situation to the point of concealing him that they are working, as if they belonged to a noble and rich family and they didn’t need to work or as if to work were a dishonour.
Hi Little family! I really like this way of calling you in the blog.
Rosa, thanks again for you advice, I will also see "Upstairs and dowstairs" and "I Claudius"!
Isidro, sorry to tell that I don't agree with your latest comment, in the way that Little Dorrit has to do the job of being in charge of her family becuase she has a father who does not realise his family needs. If Little Dorrit and Amy had no worked, who would have covered all his hardships?
Little Dorrit is pushed for the situation and has no option of working and helping to her family, she also loves and admires to her father, so she struggles to avoid giving more suffering to him.
What do you think folks?
I do not think Amy be in love with Mr Clennam. In fact, she thinks of him as a good father. According to her deepest mind, Arthur has everything her father lacks of: he is a real gentleman that has cared a great deal about her and, although, he is as earnest as his mother is, he is extremely attentive, solicitous and tender towards her. Thanks to his help, her brother has been released from prison while her father, forever dishonest and mean, spends his time collecting money from visitors or other prisoners. As Mr Dorrit is ashamed of his children working outside, but he will never feel embarrassed about himself.
Chapter XV, that we are going to discuss this very afternoon, is quite puzzled, don’t you think? From my point of view Mrs Flintwinch is not at all dreaming. She is so afraid of her husband, Mrs Clennam and their mysterious business that she thinks she is sleeping. She is scared even of Arthur! I love the passage when Mr Flintwinch puts his nose close to his wife’s lips to find out if she is drunk because of her talking nonsense.
Hi Litle Family! As Gema, I like this way to calling us.
Carmen, I was speaking about me when I wrote "creep". And, despite my comments, I also like Flora, poor think!.
Mª del Campo. I witnesed your presentation of chapter XIV, and I do think you managed very well to control your nerves. Congratulations!!
It's very interesting our discussion about Arthur and Amy falling in love . What I'm thinking is that they will do it, but not yet, as I've already said.
Chapter XV is really nice, again. Affery is not dreaming, from my view, and the conversation between Mrs. Clennam and Jeremiah gives us a lot of information about their realtionship. It's very surprising the way in wich Jeremiah talks to Arthur's mother. They lock as old friends instead of mistres and servant, What do you thik? And, for the first time, she shows respect for Amy decision to hide the place where she's living "If Amy dont want to say where is she living, why would I ask her?". Mrs. Clennam is hard and stern, but surely there is a reason for her behaviour...
We will know.
Bye.
Oliva.
Good Evening every one!
I agree very much with last commentaries. Perhaps Amy has a conexion with Arthur's family wich involves Jeremiah and Mrs Clennam's secret. And Jeremiah knew something About Arthur's father...something that Mrs Clennam doesn't want to hear or talk about. Were they lovers? Is Amy related to Arthur? Did they commit a crime? Is the house haunted by a ghost? Affery hears noises whose procedence she can not explain...Perhaps they have something kidnaped in the house, or there is a secret child hidden of the rest of the world...I can't help, I like very much secrets and misteries, and this chapter has beeen one of my favorites...
And, yes, Isidro, I think that Amy has serious problems whith his father, altough, in my opinion, he is not entirely aware of his situation, and perhaps Amy is overprotecting him and his brother, and this is not good for them. And I think that people really don't admire Mr Dorrit, they pity him, altough they don't say (whith the exception of Mr Plornwish and his family)...
Gema, I agree with you that Amy and her sister must work, but I think that they shouldn’t hide this fact to their father, because this way, they contribute to stimulate Mr Dorrit’s silliness and to help him to lose the sense of the reality. In my view, he should know the real situation of his family, instead of living in a fictional world in which it is assumed that all needs are miraculously satisfied.
So, I don’t say that Mr Dorrit should work, but he should know that his daughters work, because this is nor something dishonorable, given the family’s conditions.
Hi folks,
Next chapters are quite promising and I am eager to discuss about chapter xvi, in which we will discover amusing mysteries.
Isidro thanks for your reply, but I think that Mr. Dorrit has losen the sense of reality and it does not really matter if he knows about their children jobs, he will be acting in the same way, because he has no the capacity of coping with troubles.
I go tonight to see Vigo Mortenssen in "The Purgatory" and I will tell you about this experience shortly. See you!
Oliva: Thank you very much for your moral support, you are very kind to me.
Much as I liked chapter XIV, I have to admit that each chapter is more interesting than the last one I read. Gradually the book go opening to give us new things to discover. I am sure that Mr. Flintwinch and Mrs Clennam hide some secrets and that, she defens Little Dorrit against Mr. Flintwinch because she feels sorry for her, by something related to her father´s business, or something like that.
Hi!!!
I agree very much with Gema. Even if Mr. Dorrit have known that their children haver their own works, he wouldn't have changed his behaviour. He is as a king of Marshalsea, and I think he wants to keep being it. He had made up his own kingdom, and he is happy.
I couldn't read chapter XIV yet, but having revised all your comments, I hope I'll can read it now although the reading be hastily.
See you!!
María del Campo, when you did your chapter you kept it simple, I mean the language was simple, and by avoiding complications you managed it quite well for your level. Of course you need to get on a bit but you will if you talk everyday in class, try to say two sentences about the chapter everyday. I did like this chapter, too, particularly the continual references to the so-imagined party.
Isidro, I also see that Amy feels something different for Arthur..you are really good at reading comprehension, aren´t you?, but I cannot agree that LD visits him for "love" reasons at night in his house...I think it is the only time when she could do it without being interrupted, without it being known, remember that she doesn´t want Tip to know.
I think that I have to agree with Isidro, Rosa. there is certainly more than one hint that LD feels more than gratitude for Mr.Clennam. She vsits him out of grateful duty, she wants to thank him, though she has not been told that he is responsible for discharging Tip, but in the invented-imagined party, Mr. Right is Mr. Clennam!! she thinks of dancing with him. Then the way she softly says "God bless you", so controlled, as if she was bursting with feeling, don´t you think that when you say thank you you are not so overwhelmed? one just says it sincerely and clearly, no, she is in love, there, I´ve said it.
Flora, I love Flora. Elisabeth Bennet says "I dearly love a laugh", and so do I!!! I will always be grateful for Flora. The way she mixes her own childish feelings with Chinese women, Arthur and Mr. Clennam, excusing herself for considering him someone still as close, someone on the same footing with her as of old, is so funny!!!! The unwelcome surprise of Mr. Clennam at seeing what he had loved and cherished when young, is fantastic. That oldish woman we meet at a party, trying to flirt with a man she had flirted with before, dressed as if she were still a teenager...unfortunately not offering us the pleasure of her silly prattle I have met around the place! Normally very immature women, always convinced that they still retain their bloom.
Having said this, Flora is not a bad person. There is no grudge against Arthur and she takes good care of the half crazy aunt. Very very funny.
I don´t think that Flora´s family is worse than Arthur´s, on the contrary had I to choose I would join the Casbys!!! They like eating and drinking, and mix with all sorts, I mean Pancks is not exactly a Duke, is he?
And what about the darling Aunt?
I totally agree with Isidro (we seem to be on the same side this year, Isidro, all the time!!!there is no Mr.Carton) when he says that Mr.Dorrit fails. whereas he should be protecting his family and providing for them, is spite of his imprisonment, he does nothing but seat in his particular "family seat" and receive alms which he has turned into a kind of medieval payment from "serfs" to their "lord"! I must say that I have little patience with people who hide reality and mask it with a totally different situation relying in the meanwhile with others who suffer this situation so as not to hurt them or protect them!!!! Look around you and you will see this situation in your families!!
Affery´s dream is surely not such a thing!! She is not told what is going on, but somethng is going on and this something, this secret, involves mr. Flinwhich and Mrs. clennam, this is their bond and this is the reason why their relationship is unnatural. He seems to be in command, however not totally, why?
"Much as I liked chapter XIV.." good sentence; Maria del campo, keep experimenting with language, you will do well. So glad you are liking the novel..
Much as there was a certain ambiguity in the first Affery’s dream, a precise analysis of the passage allowed us to know that it was a dream. But in the one of chapter XV we can not doubt that Affery is dreaming because Dickens says this explicitly. Thus, he says:
“On a vintry afternoon at twilight, Mrs Flintwinch, having been heavy all day, dreamed this dream:“
So, the story of the dream begins immediately after this two points.
And three pages later, we can read this: “Mistress Affery dreamed that the figure of her lord here began walking up and down the room”.......
In consequence, Affery continued dreaming in that moment.
I think that Affery’s dream is very interesting, but as ever occurs in the dreams, we must not think that this is an accurate reflection of the reality. Dreams are made with contents of our subconscious, that is, memories and fancies of our mind that are associated without following the logic that governs our mental activity when we are awake. So, the dreams are somehow in relation with events of our real life, but as they use to be an expression of fears or wishes, they must be taken more as arbitrary constructions of our mind, than as the reality itself. Moreover, many times, the dreams are absurd stories which the meaning, if there is any, is so hidden that it is not easy to reveal.
So, we can not take all the details of the dream as if they were completely true. And the problem is to know what we can accept as true without fear to mistake. In my view, this dream reflects two different issues that are a cause of concern to Mrs Flintwinch. The first is the worry of Affery about a certain disagreement of her husband with Mrs Clennam, about something unknown related with the company and with the family’s relationships. The second subject reflects Affery’s concern about the reaction of Mrs Clennam if his husband told her that Amy lives in Marshalsea.
We know more of this second subject, because of Amy and Arthur’s conversation.
Don’t you remember? Amy told Arthur that Mr Flintwinch had seen her going to Marshalsea and she wanted to know if she should wait Mrs Clennam’s question or reveal her secret immediately. Arthur told her not to do anything until he spoke to Affery. But, we have seen in this chapter that when Arthur was going to ask her, she said “For goodness sake don’t ask me nothing. I am frightened.”
In conclusion, the dream introduces a great thriller, because neither the secret of the family was revealed nor we know Mrs Clennam’s reaction about Little Dorrit’s secret.
If what Affery thinks to be a dream, doesn’t be a dream, but the reality, it would be because Mr Flintwinch gives her, from time to time, an extra doses of drug that put her in a semi hallucinatory state in which she is unable of distinguishing between imagination and reality. In this case Mr Flintwinch’s wickedness and brutality would be very disturbing and the mystery round Mrs Clennam and Mr Flintwinch increases considerably. Mrs Clennam and Mr Flintwinch’s secret must be very very important so they have decided to destroy Affery’s personality. And I think that Affery’s marriage was the first step to control her. Thus, Affery being Mr Flintwinch’s wife, he can drug her and hit her to the point of she being terrified. And this way the possibility of Mr Flintwinch having a twin brother wandering through the house left open, what could explain the strange sounds that Affery hears from time to time.
We know that still nowadays is widely believed that the wife is a property of the husband, therefore many women still die even in the more advanced countries, in spite of the law being advance a lot and be established equality between men and women in general, and particularly between husband and wife. But in the XIX century not even the law protected women and a husband could do with his wife whatever he wanted.
If what Affery thinks to be a dream were really a dream, the situation would be more natural; and even if Flintwinch’s wickedness would continue being a reality, it wouldn’t be so horrible. For example, it would open the possibility of a better relationship between them, as it seems to reflect some expressions like this, when Affery woke up in the first dream:
“ Why, Affery, woman - Affery! You have been getting out of bed in your sleep, my dear!”
Anyway, we have to recognize that Dickens, using irony and playing with the language, creating confusing situations that open different possibilities, introducing the necessary dose of uncertainty and perplexity to create suspense, is like a prestidigitator that keeps us all thrilled. I think that he is a master and his works are masterpieces. Don’t you?
I’m sorry. In my last comment:
….“an extra dose”...
…....” the law being advanceD”....
I think that I chose the worst option. After Carmen’s last lesson about concessive clauses, I should have chosen a better one. Until now, I have used too much “in spite of”, but I am going to put interest in introducing more and more other expressions.
For example, instead “in spite of” it is better:
“although the law has advanced.............”
or
“much as the law has advanced......”
Hello guys!
Have just seen the new "Jane Eyre" film and I must say I have enjoyed it.
I felt in love with the novel and obviusly with Mr. Rochester when I was a teenager and I took the book from my mom's library. What can I say, I have read it first in spanish and then in english almost ten times and I have watched several of the numerous films and TV series that exist about the book. So I can say that I am a proper fan.
This new film is a nice job, I mean that the quality, the light, the wardrobe, the music and, among all, the photography are extraordinary and impeccable. I also like actors performance.
And if i haven't read the film I surely would have loved it.
The only negative point is that I have missed the most independent Jane, the fighter. Here in the film, she seems a little weak and doesn't show all her strenght and feminism.
On the other hand I think that she and Mr. Rochester are too handsome.
And I also miss a more cold St. John. It is an important role in the develop of the story and in Jane's last evolution and here is diffused, and on the other way around the actor is not so handsome than I expected (by the way he is "Billy Elliot").
Isidro, I´m afraid I cannot agree with you where the dream is concerned. I think that Dickens describes the reality as if it were a dream, which is what Flintwinch(I hope I got it right)is trying to do: not sure whether she is being drugged, it could be, but the "dose" you mentioned is brutal battering. This is what she is frightened about. she could still be curious about what is going on, because she perceives that somehting is going on, but she is alone and too weak to fight the other two. We´ll see what happens.
Well done for trying with the concessive "Much as there was a certain ambiguity" "ambiguous as her behaviour was" or "ambiguity as there was in her behaviour", I prefer the use of the adjective though we have seen Dickens using the noun in the trifle example we looked at.
Noelia, I have seen Jane Eyre as well, and I have liked the light or rather the lck of light in the film which enables us to become aware of how little one saw then, I have liked the costumes, I have liked the sights, the family seat, but I have not wuite liked...Mr. Rochester. I did not find him handsome but neither did I find him strong. I think that I cannot say this until I have heard him in English, but certainly the Spanish actor fails to put across his strength and total absence of consideration for others. I do not see him as tormented. There is absolutely no passion between the actor/actress either!!! That first kiss is so forced... I missed the fear of "the mystrious peal of laughter", Bertha, so important in the novel is totally forgotten in this one, ok, it is not so spooky, but jane Eyre is gothic, so I perceive this a s a drawback. The actress is a better cast, she looks qute plain really with that horrible hairdo and manges to portray the quiet Jane, the decided one comes forward less. On the whole, "watchable" but will not be eternal.
Good morning to everybody:
Wow! Three hundred commetaries already!
I have been missing several days, and probably, I am not coming today to the lesson because my mother is ill and probably I would have to take her to the doctor.
I am too a bit eager of seeing the new Jane Eyre, altough I am afraid it is going to dissapoint me. I always happen when I first read the book, and, then, watched the film. And sometimes, I watched first the film, and read the book, and I liked best the book. I only have seen an adaptation of Jane Eyre and I didn't like, I only watched it because the guy who played Mr Rochester was the same who played Dr Frankenstein in James Whale 's Frankenstein and The bride of Frankenstein. Generally I always prefer the book to the film, altough I like cinema. I think the only cases in which I liked more the films than the books were Jean-Jacques Annaud's The name of the Rose (Umberto Eco is extremely tough, much more than Dickens) and Paul Leni's The man who laughs (I am very fond of German Expresionism).
Coming back to Dorrit,I have just read chapter XVI, and I have enjoyed it quite much. The description of the house, and its relations with the characters who live in it is fantastic. And I have like very much Mr Doyce's character. I think that we in Spain have actually the same problems that Mr Doyce. Many people want to something for their country, but they can't, because when they try, they only find difficulties put there by politicians or bureaucrats, or because they don't have money and the banks don't want to lend it them.
So, Mr Clennam is fighting against his own feelings. He loves Pet, but he doesn't want to love her. I think that the real reason is because he loves Amy, already, but he is not aware of that. Could it be? What do you thing?
Carmen, I agree with you about Mr. Rochester lack of strenght but I think the actor is too handsome, I would have prefered am uglier look. And I don't like his accent, it is not a proper british accent.
That is way i wrote in my previous post that if you haven't read the book you would enjoy the film more than if you have read it.
By the way, have a look at this new: http://www.movieweb.com/news/felicity-jones-is-the-invisible-woman
Rosa, I´m so glad you have liked and appreciated fully chapter 16. It is indeed good. I cannot agree with you on the love issue. I do think that Arthur is generally attracted to Pet, she was a sweet girl, very beautiful and loyal and nice with her parents, she also seems to be very plaible, and gentle, how can a man not feel attracted by her? The difference in age restrains him, he tries to control his feelings. I wonder if this is possible? personally I think it is, if someone doesn¨t return your love, you eventually stop loving the person. Don´t you think?
Hi Folks!
Noelia, thank you very much for the link, the news is fantastic!
Coming back to Little Dorrit I have to say that the chapter xvi is quite good because we finally know Arthur feelings towards Little Dorrit and Pet. It is surprising the way Dickens writes about feeling or avoiding feelings and how as much as you want to avoid to love someone, as much as you love. I also agree with you about the description of the house is wonderful and the description of the reception is son fun...
What do you think about Dickens's beauty description in Tattycoram gestures? I have thought it lot of times, gestures are key to show someone's beauty. I love how Dickens writes thoughts that are not easy to describe and also de ironic he uses!
Thank you very much for your comments about J.Eyre I am eager to watch it. I saw last year in "la Filmoteca" de former film in which Orson Wells acts as Mr. Rochester and I loved his acting!!
As I promised you I went to see "The Purgatory" it was a bit hard because the plot is boring, luckily the actors are very good and that was the best of the play.
Good morning:
I have already watched the new Jane Eyre film, and I would wish to share with you my impressions about it.
Well, I have to say that I didn't really like it. In my opinion is just as Jane could be to a careless reader: plane and pale. I dislike the way in which the story is retold, with all these annoying, and at the beggining, ununderstable flashbacks. There was not neeed of doing that.I know it's difficult to put in two hours of film 447 pages of a novel, but I feel they wanted to put many things in the film, and they didn't put entirelly. And they forgot some important things. Not mention the fact of some lines of the dialogue (which are not in the book) being absolutely stupid, and have nothing to do with Bronte. The characters are just like faded, and I am afraid that the director and the script writer have not understood them well. I didn't like the gal who played Jane. She is not ugly, she is not plane, in spite of all those imposible hairdos that you said. She was cute! And she can't act. I can see Jane's restraint and wishes of freedom, but I can't see her intelligence nor her passion. She is just white bread. And the guy who played Rochester, altough I liked him more (in fact, he was one of the ones that I liked most), was not ugly! He was gorgeous, even hot!He was not supposed to be gorgeous. And Jane's cousins, Mary and Diana, were ugly! And the red Rooom was not red at all. But the worst thing at all was Mr Rivers. He was not terrifingly beautiful, he has not steadfastly stern, he was not fanatically devoted to his religion. He was just the Billy Elliott's boy who has grown up and became a silly, spoilt teenager going into a tantrum! I hate the music of this film, falsely romantic, is annoying and boring, just a bad version of Arnold Schoemberg's Verklarte Nacht. I can forgive anything to a film but being boring, and in some moments, this film is that. I didn't like Bertha, eating flies and then, spitting to Jane. She is Bertha from Jane Eyre, not Renfield from Dracula! And the ending is just a nonsense! Finally, Jane finds Rochester again, and she just gives him a good morning kiss. After all her ordeals and sufferings! We don't seen the wedding, nor the children, nor his recovering for being blind...
I have said the things that I disliked, now I am going to say the things that I have like. At less, this is not a pretentious film. It is not presented as "the ultimated adaptation of Jane Eyre", it's just other version. And I was very afraid of an Asian-American director adaptating a British Book, because I thought it was not the most suitable person. But the direction of this film is fine, and the photography, absolutelly beautiful. Some scenes are like paintings by Caspar David Friedrich or Carl Gustav Carus (Romatic painters, both). The sets and costumes were fantastic, altough I think that Jane's dresses were too much nice. There are some very sensitive moments, for example, when Jane saves Mr Rochester life. I like the acting of the guy who played Rochester, altough he must have been uglier and more bad, I think he was one of the best actors of the film. And I like very much Mrs Fairfax. Judi Dench is a fine actress, and in spite of being her role small, she success in making it greater, enhanced. And I like very much the little girl who plays Adele, she is just funny and adorable!
So, despite of all the bad things that I have said, this is not really a bad film at all, because it's made carefully and with a great deal of artistry, but in my opinion, if you really liked the original book, you are going to think that the film is pale, faded in comparation... I hope this opinion of mine has been usefull to you.
Good afternoon:
Well, Carmen, I am glad you have mentioned that subject, because I think is connected with the next chapter, which I have liked very much. I fact, I think this one has been one of my favorite ones, of all the chapters that we have read till this moment.
Really, I don't know why Arthur is trying to restrain his feellings. It's because he is not self-confident? It's because he only feels a physical atraction to Pet? Is it because he feels he is not good enough for her? Is it because he is already in love with Amy? Well, truly, I am not sure, I only have several ideas about that...Perhaps it's because I don't like neither Pet nor her family... I know, I know, Dickens intended to do them likeable characters, and in fact, they are far more likeable and sympathetic than Arthur's family or Flora's one. But, in my opinion, they are a bit pompous and vane. And we are lucky, because they are "practical people". But, even so...
Now we have learnt that Arthur has a rival, Mr Gowan. He seems a nice person, but Arthur dislikes him at the first glimpse, and Dickens makes sure we feel that. And even Amy has a suitor. And I have like very much this chapter and the new character introduced there, John. Poor old fellow, I feel so sorry for him. I don't understand why Amy is so unnice to him. He is not handsome, he is not rich, he is not intelligent,and of course she is not in love with him, but he is so tender and sweet... And he has his own business, which is not little in those times (and these). I think they could have been happy together. Why, Amy, why? This is the first time in the book in which you dissapoint me, I thought you were the good girl. Is it because you are being like papa, and think he is not good enough for you, and you can have something better? Is it because you are in love with Arthur? Or because you feel you are not good enough to him? It could be that, because, quite in an incomprehensible way, John, like many others, thinks that Amy's family is fantastic, which is not. And she tries to persuade him to not think like that. No, I think that actually it's because she doesn't want to marry, in order not to leave her father alone. Even so, I feel so much pity for John. He is a tender guy, a dreamer...In "The Silver Chalice", a very bad film with some very good lines, there is a quote about dreamers: one of the characters says that he prefers dreamers rather than men of action, because you can't get anything from them, except wars, taxes and submission. I think he was right. And I think I like John because I am a bit like him: his story, I have lived before. To have a person near, to feel atraction, to love the same things that this person, to have the feeling that person could be happy with you... And I still think about that person, I don't know if with real love, but with more melancholy than bitterness. Perhaps I am stupidly romantic, or too much naive for this period, or I am like Erik in "Phantom", and I know there is more, but not for me...I am sorry for this post so much long and boring, but I want to talk about this chapter that has been one of my favorites... Oh, poor John...I hope we will find again this old chap...
Rosa, I cannot see how John would ever dream of being accepted by Amy, consider she is above him from the point of view of family, even in her desolute position she is the daughter of the Patriarch he is given his due by the rest of the parishioners; he is a kind of kingly figure, and he is very low in the social scale, therefore how could he hope to be accepted? It is not only her father, she would not consider it herself!!
You are, or say you are very romantic, if so then an unhappy romance is what would suit you best!!! Romanticism involves end, involves tragedy therefore it is not practical for life. Very nice while you are in it, very nice while you are dreaming about it, very painful to outlive it.
I´ve liked your analysis of Jane Eyre, I think it is very good and shows understanding of filming, but I cannot agree with you with Rochester, he is weak and that did not go with Mr. Rochester, so his performance fails.
Good evening:
Of course, Rochester in the film could have been better, but, in a film in which the acting is, in my opinion, not the best, he was not one of the worse ones...Even so, I think that if you have not read the book, the film is very nice, because it is not bad, it is well done, but, if you have read, you will feel that something is missing there...
I have not clear ideas about the Amy and John's subject... Perhaps, if John had been thought that he was not going to have any chance, he didn't try it. I think he felt he could do something, and, therefore, he tried. And I dislike Amy's behaviour...I don't know, she could had said "I want to be your friend"..."Perhaps later"..."This is not a good moment", the things that are said when a person rejects you, because he or she doesn't want to have anything to do with you but doesn't want to be rude...
Well, perhaps because I have never been loved when I was in love (or when I was not), my idea about love and romance is that they are not even happy, nor pleasant. Love is painful, and sad, and anguishing, and if it is not, is not real love, it is other thing. If you think about it, you will find that almost all the love stories that are remembered is because they ended badly, or because their characters had to endure great sufferings... I think is like this even if you are loved in return. Therefore, it is better not to have love in your life...
I just got back, after having been out of Madrid a few days, and I have read your interesting comments. I would like to participate in your dialogue about Jane Eyre, but I neither have read the book, nor I have seen the film.
Carmen, you are right, perhaps we don’t disagree this year very much because there is not in Little Dorrit a character as problematic as Mr Carton. However, I think that we didn’t disagree too much last year. You know that I also liked very much Mr Carton as a character of the novel, and I am sure that I could forget other characters of “A tale of two cities” but I neither will forget Mr Carton nor our friendly disagreement about him.
In my opinion, our differences began when we talked about real life. I think that, interesting as Mr Carton is, as a character of the novel, I wouldn’t like to have a friend or a son like him, because a life as Carton’s would be very wretched. His final sacrifice is very moving from a literary point of view, but a similar behaviour in real life would be completely crazy and against nature and logic.
In the novel Little Dorrit, for example, you said some days ago that you like very much Flora, and so am I. However, funny as her character is, if I met in real life a woman like her I would do the same than Mr Clennam, that is, to look for an excuse to leave the meeting immediately.
"if John had thought that he was not going to have any chance, he wouldn't have tried." This is the correct conditional sentence. Rosa, you are denying that there is happiness in love and thus you confirm what we talking about which your "romantic" idea of the feeling, but Romantic in the very sense of the word. So, when you say there is no real happiness in loving someone I can´t but see that you have a point. Even in the greatest love affairs there is this tragic component and we have Romeo and Juliet as emboding ideal and perfect love. You take the position that Arthur takes at the end of chapter 16:
"..insensibility to happiness with its insensibility to pain".
My only objection is that you will miss out on something, which is nice, though some suffereing (even if it be only that ensuing from disappointment at the failure of the lover...they always fail and we fail them too, by our incapacity of remaining inn their eyes what we were and what they were to us)issues forth from most love relationships.
Isidro, but the point is that where you see carton as a character I see him as real. Not in himself but in what he represents. If the novel is good we like it because we recognise ourselves, in our nature in the characters.
How can´t you see that carton´s sacrifice is the sacrifice of many in those circumstances, I mean in special ones. Of course people normally don´t act in that way, but during the sinking of the Titanic some of the people who had a right to one of the few boats left their places to younger people so that they could live a life that in their cases was drawing to an end. How many such sacrifices do we see at war time? Carton was in a kind of war, in fact a revolution and though you may say that he sacrificed himslef for a woman and not for the benefit of a community, this is irrelevant as what we should consider is the sacrifice.
as to Flora, I don´t think I would like to marry her, but from the point of view of a woman she is very funny, and again the steriotype of that well off woman who is contented with food and drink and with being pampered at home by a doting father. the immature one who reflects on her youth and cling to it as she does, its remembrance doesn´t hinder her from enjoying her present tranquil life. I have met much more damaging Floras in real life. Women who are devastated because they did not get married (admitedly Flora does, and luckily for her experiences marriage for some months, thus has the possibility of returning home, to her cocoon), and make their friends and family suffer for it!
In my view Mr Clennam was so wretched in his childhood, he suffered such a lack of affection that he has now a low self-esteem and he thinks that he is not worthy of love. He expressed this feeling to Mr Meagle in chapter two when he said: “I am such a waif and stray everywhere, that I am liable to be drifted where any current may set........(.....)......Austere faces, inexorable discipline, penance in this world and terror in the next, nothing graceful or gentle anywhere, and the void in my cowed heart everywhere, this was my childhood.”
Mr Clennam has been so mistreated by life that he doesn’t want to feel love for anyone for fear to be rejected. Who could feel love for him, if his own parents didn’t love him when he was a little boy? So, he rejects the idea of falling in love, because he unconsciously thinks that, being not worthy of love, he is doomed to failure, and the more attractive the woman, the more fear of failure.
He thought of Miss Meagle having all the perfections of the world, and at the same time he thought of himself having all the faults: older than her, diffident, grave, deficient in qualities,....
In consequence, Mr Clennam was glad of having resolved not to fall in love with Pet.
In my opinion, Mr Clennam’s personality is like Mr Carton’s in the sense that both are very good and generous people and have a low self-esteem. The difference between them is that Mr Carton declared his love for Lucie even though he admitted before her that he was a failure man that didn’t deserve her love; while Mr Clennam thinks the same about Pet, but he doesn’t humiliate before her.
I think that Mr Carton is more intelligent than Mr Clennam, but If I had to choose between Mr Clennam and Mr Carton’s attitude in relation to the woman they love, I would prefer Mr Clennam’s.
Carmen, I confess you that I am a little confused with Affery’s dreams. I find it difficult to capture the true sense of the language when it is impregnated of allegory and irony. Such is the ambiguity that Dickens introduces in Affery’s dreams, showing her so completely bewildered that she doesn’t distinguish dreams and reality; and showing Mr Flintwinch’s behaviour so twisted and Machiavellian that at the end I also feel myself trapped in his ghostly network.
Until now, Affery’s dreams seem to be the way of showing us Mr Flintwinch’s brutality and at the same time the way of reminding us that there is an important secret in Arthur’s family. Mr Flintwinch knows it, but when he was going to talk about this, Mrs Clennam said. “Hold there, Flintwinch...you may go a word to far”
Otherwise, in my view, it is very surprising that a so cold woman as Mrs Clennam, that treated Arthur with hardness, should show interest in helping an unknown person as Little Dorrit. It would be possible that Little Dorrit be a part of the family’s secret?
I liked very much Dickens’ way of describing the effect of Clarence Barnacle’s presence in Mr Meagle’s diner. “Mr Meagle seemed to feel that this small spice of Barnacle imparted to his table the flavor of the whole family tree.”. After having seen his great anger at the exit of the Circumlocution Office, Mr Meaggle’s bad mood was completely justified.
The unexpected visit of Young Barnacle, Clarence Barnacle, got a shade of discomfort in Mr Meagle’s diner; he was very uncomfortable to the point of seeming other person. Don’t you imagine such a passionate person as Mr Meaggle striving to himself to not externalize his displeasure with the presence of a Barnacle in his table? I do; and I think that Dickens describes very well a feeling that all of us have felt sometimes. Who has not had the experience of having seen spoiled an agreeable meeting by the unexpected presence of someone casting a shade of uneasiness over it?
Otherwise the young Barnacle didn’t have forgotten Mr Clennam’s inquiry in the Circumlocution Office; so, he also would be very uncomfortable, being seated at the same table that such a “ferocious Radical” that dared to say in the Circumlocution Office that “he wanted to know!” So obsessed was he with Mr Clennam’s presence all night, that he could not look away from him; and though he tried to control his eye-glass, it was an impossible target; and as the time went on he got more and more nervous, and the rebellion of his eye-glass became the center of attention. I think it is very funny. Don’t you?
Isidro, I have felt the sudden change in atmosphere when a unexpected visitor comes to cloud a reunion as Barnacle does, but Mr. Meagles is quite thunderstruck by the fact that such a great person visits his house, the feeling comes with the Barnacle presence, so to say, but as you rightly point out, he is rather pleased with the new conection....
Isidro, a ver interesting comparison between Carton and Clennam. Of course yu prefer the second!!! I think he goes more with your character, doesn´t he?
Carton was loved by his mother, so he has experienced what Clennam has not, he is certainly more intelligent and less crushed by his life and childhood, he is what we would describe as "better" in his heart, easier to go with. Carton is corrupted, prone to vice, lecherous, a drunkard, he knows it and he will not stop his vices. However Carton has guts, he is resolute as to action and capable of sacrifice, which in Clennam´s case his inability to act and thus fall in love with Pet is to protect himself from suffering, while Carton falls in love with Lucy and fears not suffering as he lives tormented. I definetly prefer Carton, he appeals to me ore, he is bigger, if you understand me, I like most of his qqualities, particularly his capability of love, but I do not, of course approve of his way of life, so to say.
Is it a baby girl or baby boy? a birth is always a happy moment, I´ve sold your ticket so I´ll give you the money today.
Good evening, I have beeb missing several days.
I am afraid i can not say what I think, because I don't know who is Mr Carton.
The next two chapters of LD seem, at the first glimpse, a bit silly, but, if you read them more carefully you'll realize that, in them, we can see Amy's relationships with her relatives, and they show themselves not only as they are, but as they wanted to be seen by the others. I have the feeling, that, there, sometimes they are pretending, and others, they are true, and probably, they are not always concious of that. Mr Dorrit tryes to look like an important, respectable man, but, suddenly, he crushes, and we realize he is pompous and ridiculous. And he knows, but he tryes to do as he wouldn't. And the same with Fanny. She is even worse, because he despises her sister, and pays with her all her resentful feelings. And I have realised that not even in the lowest social classes all the people are the same.
Carmen, in my view it is not irrelevant the reason that impels a person to sacrifice his own life. I admit that in exceptional cases a person must give his life, but I consider that Mr Carton’s case doesn’t satisfy the necessary condition. If a soldier in the case of a war or a firefighter in a situation of emergency didn’t risk their lives for the community the result would be the dishonour and the loss of dignity. But Carton’s reaction is not a moral requirement or a desperate attempt to save the woman he loves, but a crazy behaviour; and the possibility of getting redemption through the berth of a child who would bear his name is a thought very naive and a completely delirium.
I agree with you when you says that in a masterpiece we recognize human nature represented in the characters. But human nature is capable of moving by the highest and by the lower feelings; human beings can show in their acts great intelligent, wisdom or goodness, and also stupidity and higher degree of perversity.
Mr Carton is a good and intelligent person, but he is a weak man, with an inferiority complex, without self-esteem and with tendency to self-destruction that culminate with his death. In my opinion, he is, by his complexity, the best character of “A tale of two cities”, but we must recognize that he is a tormented soul that only find peace after his death. However, as always, when people die, we forget the wrong side and all are praises for them, and even acts of extreme stupidity become heroic acts.
"in my view it is not irrelevant the reason that impels a person to sacrifice his own life".
I don´t think I´ve ever contradicted this.
You describe Carton very well, but when you say that his action is not done a moral one or has the purpose of saving someone´s life, I agree with you,but, you seem to miss the fact that it is a mere sacrifice for the happiness of another human. It is a compensation to Dr. Manette´s suffering and her suffering during her youth, he provides her with a happy life. he thinks that his is valueless. However let me tell you that what you write about him seems to be the best you produce!!!! In this, at least Carton moves you on!!!
Rosa, a very interesting approach. We have to reread this chapter connecting it with Amy and her family. Yes Mr. Dorrit is pompous and silly and selfish, and her brother and sister give themselves airs in front of mere poverty and want. Pathetic..but so true. People are the same everywhere, no matter what class they belong to.
Good evening:
Well, I didn't mean to talk about that, but, having you mention this, I would like to say something about Amy's family.
Altough I think I don't know them perfectly, I have some ideas about them. First, probably the father is an irresponsible, unreliable man who has lived over his posibilities and who probably has been involved in not very clean business, and, because of that, he ruined himself and his family. Second, altough, at the beggining I thougth that Amy's siblings were not realy bad, I am begining to change my mind. In fact, they are probably two little masters who think they are not fit for work, and that anybody is good enough for them. Tip seems to me as a sort of poor version of John Reed of Jane Eyre. And the sister...well, the sister seemed almost destined to be a prostitute...she doesn't move in recommendable places, it seems she has had an affaire whith the wrong person, and his mother has to put herself into the staff to part her away from him. She almost calls her whore!...And even Amy has sometimes behaviaours unfit for a girl in her situation, altough she is, from far, the best, or the less bad, in the lot. Well, and about the mother, we can't say much, when she was not useful anylonger to Dicken's purposes, he killed it...It's curious, but in classic literature there are very few mother figures, and I think it was a reflection of the society, when women had got married and had children, they were not useful any longer. In Spanish classic theatre, there are not mothers, in El Quijote, we have very few, and in Shakespeare' s plays, we have some, but not many, and generally they are not very positive characters (Juliet's mother, who is there only for saying her "do as your father says", Hamlet's mother, who cheats on his husband and betrays his own son, Lady Macbteh, who is a real badass, and very astonishing, because sometimes she is presenting as a mother, and others, she appears to be childless, Richard the 3 erd's mother, who is there only to say "I am a miserable woman, because my son is so bad"...and so on, and so on...)
Hi everyone!
I want to continue the comentaries we have started in class the last day. In my opinion Amy has a point in treating John as she did. Good as Amy was until this chapter, his behaviour in this one shocks me a lot, but I have found some reasons for her behaviour. First of all, because John is deeply in love with Amy and these feelings only can be out of his head if he has a strong and imperative answer. And on other hand, had he an insecure answer, he would be in love with her until his dead, as he thinks nowadays. When you are in love with someone and that person hurts you, the forgiveness would be get easier. It was the forbiden of not to go to one place that I don't understand.
See you!
I think that Amy rejects John because she doesn’t love him, but not because she thinks that her family is above than John’s. When Young John talks to Amy, he admitted that his family was lower than Amy’s, but she didn’t accept this approach because she always have known his family in prison; so, she rejected the superiority of the family as a possibility to consider.
In my opinion, Amy is suffering unfortunate living conditions and she has lived all her life in a situation of great hardship, therefore she can not take a position of superiority in any sense. So, she rejects John because she doesn’t love him.
Moreover, I think that John, being in love with Amy, is normal that he dreams of being accepted by her. I prefer John’s attitude to Carton and Clennam’s. John knows that he can be considered inferior to her, but he neither humiliate himself, as Carton, nor get paralyzed before the possibility of being rejected, as Clennam.
Otherwise, I agree with Rosa that Amy is very hard with John, but if she sees clearly that she never will love him, perhaps the best thing that she can do is not to give him any hope to avoid greater frustration in the future. Had she opened the possibility of loving him in the future, knowing that it would not happen, would have been too cruel.
However, I think that Amy is a little authoritarian with John, what in my opinion is very surprising because the most outstanding trait of her personality until now is her humility. In my view, this behaviour can only be justified because she is much more mature than him, and she only see him as the child of their children’s games; moreover, I think that she is in love with Mr Clennam, and she doesn’t want that John’s proximity may scare him.
Carmen it is a baby boy; and, as you says, a birth is a happy moment. So, we all are very happy. Thank you very much.
So, Isidro, do you have a baby? Congratulations, altough I think this is not the best time to have a baby, but when is a good time?
I have read the lasts post. Well, I don't know, but I think that love must be not selfish, without expecting anything in return, and, if you selfish, and, therefore, this is not love. Perhaps Amy knows that she never could love John, not even in the not real, selfish way, and because of that, he rejects him. But, no, perhaps I am mistaken, but I think that Amy doesn't want anything with the boy because she doesn't want to leave her father alone. He only has her.
So, Isidro, do you have a baby? Congratulations, altough I think this is not the best time to have a baby, but when is a good time?
I have read the lasts post. Well, I don't know, but I think that love must be not selfish, without expecting anything in return, and, if you selfish, and, therefore, this is not love. Perhaps Amy knows that she never could love John, not even in the not real, selfish way, and because of that, he rejects him. But, no, perhaps I am mistaken, but I think that Amy doesn't want anything with the boy because she doesn't want to leave her father alone. He only has her.
From my point of view I don´t believe that Amy has been cruel to John, on the contrary she has been clear because she does not hurt Jonh, in any case.That´s the reazon why she lets not talk or say anything to John.
I think she wants to fall in love with someone, us she says at the beginning of the chapter, but she has not yet found the love she wants.
Dickens gives us a first negative view of Mr Gowan through Mr Clennam’s thought when he saw him tossing stones into the water of the river. He had the impression of seeing an air of cruelty in his gesture.
Afterward, when Gowan boasted of knowing the place very well, and when seeing Miss Minnie coming, he said that the place was the Paradise, Mr Clennam got very jealous; but he was, at the same time, very happy of having taken the decision of not falling in love with her. However, the presence of Mr Gowan disturbed Mr Clennam to the point of wishing him to be in the crater of the Mount Etna.
Moreover, friendly as Mr Meagles tried to show himself, we could see his uneasy in the passing cloud on his good-humoured face, every time that Pet had a gesture of sympathy with Gowan. And later, when Young Barnacles arrived and sat at his table, he had to endure his presence and to bite the bullet as a punishment to his weakness and hypocrisy.
Mr Gowan was an useless far component of Barnacle’s family, who had decided to become a painter, but he didn’t success, in spite of having his family’s support. So, he was a failed man that lived surrounded of mediocrity because everybody he knew was an ass or a knave. Therefore, I think that, when he sayd that all his acquaintances were very nice people, and that “there is much less difference than you are inclined to suppose between an honest man and a scoundrel”, he is trying to justify himself, his family and all his friends.
If there were no difference between an honest man and an scoundrel, the best people would be those who benefits us. So, all would be relative!!! All would depend on the point of view!!!! there would not have a great difference between good and evil!!!.....
That is the ethic of all the scoundrels of the world; therefore, Mr Meagles’ face was frequently shadowed this day by clouds of uneasiness and unhappiness. But he deserves it for being so weak, for not daring to speak clear with this people and for allowing them to infect his home with the flavour of the Barnacles’ family.
Thank you Rosa. I am a grandfather very happy. I think that it is a good moment for having a baby, because I hope that when he has the age of working the crisis will have passed.
Good night:
I have just seen "El perro del hortelano", if you want to read my opinions, go to the theatre blog in the English Department Website.
Many times, I have wondered why anybody in Spain has done with our classic theatre, which, in my opinion, is as good as the English one, the same thing that Kenneth Branagh has done with Shakespeare. Pilar Miro tried to do something, but, unfortunately, she didn't live long enough. And I think I have now the answer: today, in Spain, we don't have neither good directors nor even competent actors. They can't act, they can't say their lines, they can't sing or dance, the only thing that they can do is to do nonsense or to remove their clothes. And the directors only want to do the films that they "think" are interesting, or profitable (and they are not)...
So, Isidro, you are a grandfather? How nice! I don't know why, but I thought you were younger:)
I wish the best for they...(the baby and its family)...
Hi folks!
Rosa, thank you very much for your opinion about "El perro...".
Isidro, I agree with you in all senses, Mr. Meagles is a bit weak and he wants to geto on well with everybody and that is impossible, don't you think?
Arthur is fighting for not falling in love with Pet, but I think that this is useless because some feelings are very difficult to control. Do you agree with me, folks??
Isidro, you are very optimistic I really hope that next generations will have a more opportunities in Spain than we have currently.
Congratulations for you grandson!!
Rosa, Thank you for your congratulation. And regarding to optimism, I think that it is possible that the consequences of the crisis should last much time. But in my view, we can not live all time lamenting and thinking that things could have gone better. We must be positive thinking that Spain, even with the crisis, is well placed in the world. In my opinion, Spanish people in general are very extremists and we have to learn to control our reactions, because we use to think that we are the best when things go well, and that we are the worst when thing go wrong.
So, I share your desire of hoping that next generations have a promising future. But by the moment I want to be a little more humble and to express my wish that you all, teacher and mates, be very happy this Noel and that next year you see accomplished your best desires.
I'm very sorry.
Gemma, my last comment was addressed to you.
I’m sorry. Instead of happy Noel. …......................Merry chistmas!!!!!! to you all.
In my view, the Father of Marshalsea is an hypocritical, ridiculous, pompous and selfish man. He was already an useless man when he got in prison, therefore, at first, “his principal anxiety was about his wife”. When I read this words in chapter VI, I thought that he was worried about her, but now I see that his only interest was his welfare, because without her wife he was completely lost, as already showed “his irresolute hands which nervously wandered to his trembling lip a hundred of times, in the first half hour of his acquaintance with the jail.”
And, after his wife’s death, he had the fortune of Amy being so generous, responsible and sacrificed child that she took charge of the family, in spite of being the younger of his children. So Amy had to act as a mother, because Fanny and Pet were so irresolute and thoughtless as their father.
So, useless and irresponsible as Mr William Dorrit is, he has lived all his life having the respect of everybody, because he has become a great actor that, after years of representation, has achieved to transform fiction into reality. And he has the ability of adapt his performance at the circumstances, according to his needs. Therefore, after having showed proud, strong and sure of himself before his brother, he changed of mood before Amy showing himself weak and vulnerable, to obtain her pity and unconditional subordination. He has seen turn on all alarms by perceiving Mr Chivery’s coldness, because he knows that all his aristocratic air was the consequence of his friendship and good understanding with, Job, the turnkey that awarded him the tittle of Father of Marshalsea.
So, he knows that all the ridiculous and miserable fiction, that he has paraded during many years, could blow up and he is very worried. And it is clear that he is so selfish as to sell his daughter for a packet of tobacco and to maintain his status.
I'm sorry. He has the ability of adapting...
....he has seen turning on the alarms....
Good nigth. Happy Christmas to all of you.
Well, Isidro, I suppose you are rigth. But, in my opinion, the only good thing that the depression is having is that now people are changing their priorities, and redefining their lives. Now, they are other things that they are more concerned about. But, as Sophocles said, "when we are oppresed by misfortunes, it is hard to say happy words".
I think I have been clear about The Dorrits in my last posts, but I must say that I quite agree with you. Which is more, I think that Fanny and Mr Dorrit are very selfish and are only concerned by themselves.
And I think, also, that Mr Dorrit is not very in his wits, and the other brother, Frederic, is even worse. He is like living in a world by his own, all the time... Probably, his mind is damaged... And, yes, I think thar Mr Dorrit is the guilty of his family's ruin, probably because he was an irresponsible and a speculator, like many people of today who had lost their fortunes, because they lived above their posibilities. I feel sorry for Amy, but I don't feel pity of her, because she lets everybody to treat her as a carpet, but John, who is the only person who is nice whith her, and she is unkind whith him.
And look Mrs Merdles. She is a terrible woman,a hypocrite, of the worst sort. She is playing whith Fanny, and I think she deserves it because she things she is very clever, and she is not at all. All that scene is very descriptive.
Well, if we won't talk again, have happy holidays.
...I meant, "but John, to whom she is unkind..."
Good night.
Rosa It is curious, and quite true that there are not many mothers in literature: Of course Lady Macbeth is a mother but we do not her in that role, and Hamlet´s is more presented as a whore than as a mother-figure, but of course we have Mrs. Reed, and there is Mrs. Bennet, but I supose mothers were relevant for Austen, it would be interesting to study that in a PHD. Any way, the family is horrible, but most families, if you think about it are so!!! They ar our families, but the fact that we know them well and they have hurt us along the path of life makes them...human and thus with vices. You would ask yourselves how come we love them? Well, there are some virtues there, too.
Monica, I think that you have a point. Amy seems cruel, very, let´s face it but with lovers that cruelty may be necssary as a means of making them understand that you will have nothing further to do with them. Perseverance in love, sometimes is not a virtue....
FIFTHS, I would like to wish you all a very HAPPY XMAS and YEAR 2012, WITH LOTS OF LUCK, LOVE, GOODNESS, HEALTH and lots of ENGLISH!!!!
I´m currently in Santander, the sun is shining, the weather is quite nice, actually, and have got by my copy of Little Dorrit and the ... proficiency plus all your compositions, so a tolerable morning awaits me...
Enjoy tonight and be good!
Isidro, I see that you have the same view as Monica´s and thus see your point. like you I was surprised by Amy´s cruelty, and firmness, this is the first time that we see this "tone" in her, isn´t it? She may not be such a goody goody after all though I think she will go back to her former self, I can´t quite make her out in this chapter.
A boy!! How nice!!! You must all be very happy.
Have a nice Christmas¡¡¡
Happy Christmas everybody!!
I promise I'll write next week about the review of the chapter we have read until now.
Kisses and good night
Fanny is a conceited and fatuous woman. She parades the absurd and miserable Mumbo Jumbo of the family even better than his father. Thus, she considered herself different from Amy for having been born out of Marshalsea, and flaunted her alleged superiority before her. But what is completely comic and ludicrous is her vindication of the superiority of her family against Mrs Meerdle’s.
A woman so proud as Fanny can not bear Mrs. Merdle’s scorn and contempt, and therefore she tries to counteract her, claiming the superiority of her family and ensuring that she had a brother that would not consider that connection any honour. It is not the height of hypocrisy?
In my view, ostentatious and hypocritical as her attitude is, Fanny’s reaction in front of Mrs Merdle’s exhibition of her superiority is justified, in a way, to try to avoid being totally humiliated by a woman which vulgarity is very blatant, or at least, to try to delete of her face her disdainful and complacent smile. However, I agree with Amy in which she should not have accepted anything of her, because acting like this she adopted an attitude of servility that is contradictory with the alleged superiority that she has tried to maintain during the whole interview.
At the end, Amy paid the consequences of Fanny’s bad mood, suffering a hard and unjust attack of her, while she prepared the meal.
Poor Amy! She is the only reasonable, realistic and humble member of the family, she not only does all the work but also provides everyone a shoulder to cry on. Thus, Funny after her access of anger, got remorse and burst into tears and asked Amy’s pardon.
While Amy suffers silently, loading with her problems and those of the others. How long will she be able to endure such a heavy burden?
In my opinion, strong as Amy is, she needs someone to share her concerns, and to give her a bit of peace and love; anyone that be able to give her the necessary illusion in difficult times; someone that makes her dream of a better world where, poor as she is, it be possible dancing happily under the starts.
Carmen, please I don't know what I must have to do. I tried to contact with her, but I didn't get an answer. Can you give her my email, please. It is: monica5885@hotmail.com.
Thank you very much and enjoy your holidays!!
Good afternoon:
I have just finished "Macbeth", that I read several years ago, and I have liked it this time more than the other. Why? I don't know. But if you read the book carefully, you will realize that in Macbeth we don't have a single positive character. Not only Macbeth and his wife, but the rest of characters are extremely ambitious.
Rosa you have liked it better than the previous time you read it because you have undertood it better, or you read it more carefully and have consequently seem more than you saw.
I think Macduff is not bad, is he? or the crown Prince, and Macduff´s wife is not bad either, I don´t know I should read it again. I think two to three reading of Shakespeare per year harms no one!
Monica, she will write to you
Isidro, how many sisters, suffer the pride of another member of her family? perhaps with men this happens too, but women tend to blame their own mistakes on someone else, proud women, who are incapable of accepting or might I say knowing what they ae like. It is extememly difficult to know what we are like, I know, and I doubt that this is Fanny´s mistake (it looks like a contradiction, and it is) I do think that Fanny is aware of her mistreatment of Amy to the extent of saying sorry to her. She just needs to take it out on someone, such a convenient habit!!!
there is mixture of pride and moodiness in Fanny quite an insufferable woman, however I have met several Fannies around, do you think that a certain person, who has married well in this country and who has traits of Lady Macbeth in her has the angry gesture of Fanny in photos? Her pride and disdain?
Good evening:
It is true that there are women who behave like Fanny, but this is not a behaviour exclusive for women: men do the same.
Well, in the edition of Macbeth that I read (I agree with it in some things, but not in others), the comentarist says that we don't have a single positive character in Macbeth, and I think is true. Macduff seems sometimes a good version of Macbeth, but he runs away, in a quite incomprehensible (cowardice?) way, and leave his wife and children (instead of taking them whit him, or stay with them, and protect them)...and what happens to them? And Macduff's wife seems do not love very much her husband...well, I don't blame her...read the scene between she and her son... tremendous...And Duncan's sons...well, I wound't put my hand on the fire for them. Look the cold way in which they take his father's death. Do they stay in the castle and try to find out something? (because the entire story is very suspicious)No! They run away, and when they return...it only return one of them (very suspicious, very...), and only when he is sure he can do anything against Macbeth, and leting everybody in the meanwhile to thing he could have been the murderer of his own father, and leting the traitor to be crowned as a king...Of course, not all the characters are as evil as Macbeth and his wife, but if you think carefully about their actions and deeds....all are more or less ambitious, or coward, or selfish... Well, I am not quite sure, perhaps it is because of this translation...In the Orson Welles version, Malcolm (performed, I think, by the same actor who played Octavian in Manckiewicz's Cleopatra) and Macduff are depicted as much more likeable characters. I would want to watch the Roman Polanski's version...
It is probably true that it worths to read (or read again) some Shakespeare plays every year. I had a teacher who said the same, but with the Bible, and other, whit Ovidius Metamorphosis...
Have a good nigth.
Good nigth:
I have just watched (again) the Japanese version of Macbeth (the Roman Polanski's one, I didn't get it, and I have read poor critics about it). It's all Shakespeare, but whiotout Shakespeare. There is not the original play, but all the themes all there (in a very clever way for a film, this is not filmed theatre), and the play bears it because Shakespeare's text is so universal that you can to put the story in Japan during the XVI th century, and you don't betray the story. Very good acting, extremely good direction and realisation in this film, that I encourage you to watch it. The witch is this version is the most terrifing that I have seen. Lady Macbeth, who is called there Asaji, or something like that is absolutely terrible. And Macbeth (called here Washizu, I think), is absolutely unsympathetic, coward, ambitious, weak, stupid...And the scene of his death, is impressive (by the way, I have read that they used real arrows, it was not a photographic trick). Breathtaking, even if you don't like Japanese films, you should watch Akira Kurosawa's Throne of Blood (which is the name of this version).
Good night
Good day!!
Sorry for writting again for personal issues. Carmen, I did the interview and it goes very good (I think). But I need to write a letter and put some referees. So, can you make me a favour? Please, I have to send it before the 3th of January.
Good night everyone and happy new year!
Good day!!
Sorry for writting again for personal issues. Carmen, I did the interview and it goes very good (I think). But I need to write a letter and put some referees. So, can you make me a favour? Please, I have to send it before the 3th of January.
Good night everyone and happy new year!
Monica I will!! Maria will give you my email, send me what you wish me to do and I'll do it. However wouldn't it be wise to get one from your current employer?
Happy new year, fifths!!! May it bring you all WORK, HEALTH, HAPPINESS and GOODNESS!!! all this flavoured with lots of English!!!!!
Happy new year, fifths!!! May it bring you all WORK, HEALTH, HAPPINESS and GOODNESS!!! all this flavoured with lots of English!!!!!
Have a happy new year all of you!
Wishing you all the best for New Year, I´ll see you soon in class
After having decided to read Christmas Carol this holiday, I thought that I would not get it, because, between trips and family gatherings, I hardly had any free time. But at the end I achieved my target, and I really enjoyed very much reading this short but important novel of Dickens.
Dickens shows in this novel, in a masterly way, the lack of generosity and goodness and the excess of selfishness of an old men; a peculiar way of life that we can find in any time and place, because it represents one of the aberrant possibilities of development of human nature.
The main character of the novel, a very avaricious and selfish man, through the intervention of some spirits, assists to the representation of all his life; and he discovers that all his existence has been boring, sad and miserable and he gets horrified before the imminence of his own death. Therefore he decides to change his way of life becoming a cheerful and generous man, interested in bringing happiness to others, and he discovers that the more joy he provides to other, the more happy he becomes.
The moral implied in this little story has an universal value that should be taken into account by everybody. However, many people live blinded by selfishness, and they get more and more insensitive and become contemptible beings for lack of generosity, goodness and joy in their lives.
I wish that the New Year fill your lives of health, joy and goodness.
I’m going to spend some days in Canary Island, therefore I will lose the three first classes after holiday; but I have read the corresponding chapters of these days, and I wrote some comments. However, I will not publish them until the corresponding chapters has been expound in class. I hope that I will be able to post them along this days, because I have written them in docs of Google, what will permit me to publish them from any computer in my hotel or everywhere.
I’m sorry very much to lose the classes, but the temptation of travelling to summer in this time of the year has been too strong to me.
Hi Isidro, I hope you´re enjoying and you can send your comments.
Having read chapter XXI and looking around you can see many situations as described by Dickens in the book we are reading. It shows how real it is still, in some ways, despite the years. I think it could be because Dickens speaks about feelings, ambitions and these always existin the world.
Isidro, I´ve reread your post on Fanny and it seems to me a particularly good and well-written piece of anlysis. Well done.
Rosa, How interesting to see a japanese version of MACBETH!! and to find that it si such a good one. Where did you get it? in internet? we could watch it together in the eoi one afternoon, but then, how many people stay to see a film?
Isidro; I´m so glad that you have read a Xmas Carol; it is ever os good.
I was reading a common review of Dickens in a newspaper, and the critic said that Dickens came only second to Shakespeare in explaining, simply, the human heart. I think that this is so in the novel you´ve read this Xmas, the simplicity of being "good" gives us so much peace of heart and happiness that i cannot imagine why we are not always so. however we are not. Selfishness is one course of evil behaviour, but I would say that Pride is another one. a source of trouble and unhappiness always. So easy, so simple to do good, but alas! so easy, so simple to become evil....
Chapter 21, shows, as María says, real life. The nouveou (I don´t think i got the spelling right!)rich, who needs to shine in society and for that reason marries a certain type of woman is out and about in our world. The way Mr. Merdle is described , as having no enjoyment in society, however much he attends parties and meetings several, how he is shamed by the butler and tolerated merely on the grounds that he is rich is superb.
As to Mrs. Merdle, just interested in Society and displaying her jewels..well, there are many of her kind in Hello and out of Hello, don´t you tink?
Chapter 22, shows the dislike Dorrit has for Clennam because he doesn´t give him money!!! The person who behaves as you should, who puts his little grain and contributes to making you appear as less interested, who shows you a bit that what you are doing is wrong, as Clennam does, is normally despised by the person in question!!! dorrit lies to himself and believes that he deserves the money given to him, as homage payed like tax was given to the King in Medieval times. He believes himself to be better thus he desrves that money. When Clennam doesn´t give it to him, he is offended and hurt. how can anyone be so blinded? well, Folks beware of blindness!!! How many people manage to believe themselves superior to others on the grounds of family, position,. money or whatever and expect certain "arreas" from their friends???
I´m also interested in seeing that some people have an incredible facility to ask for money!!! as the Dorrits are!!
Good morning:
The Macbeth Japanese version is Akira Kurosawa's Throne of Blood. Luckily it's currently found on DVD in Fnac, El Corte Inglés and places like those, it is not one of those classic films that you cant't watch in Spain. I'm sure you will find it in some public libraries if you don't want to buy it. It's very curious, because it's all Shakespeare, but without Shakespeare. I don't know if it would be a good idea to put it at the school, because the filme is in Japanese, and it could be very tough. I have a VHS copy, recorded from a TV airing, many years ago, which is in Spanish, and the dubbing it's a bit dull. But if you are interested in Macbeth, this is a must see, because it's a very good film. I have a Japanese era, in which I was very interested in Japanese films, later, I have a German era, and I wanted to see German films...This holidays I have been trying to watch some English films, which in Spain are hard to find (why? and then we will have the distributors complaining about people dowloading films that they can not find in Spain...), specially films from the 30s which were the golden age of British films... In Spain, it's very hard and difficult to find or just to watch some classic films...But let's go back to Little Dorrit.
In chapter XXI, we see the higher classes and the Merdles just like they are, hypocrites,greedy, lacking of feeling, concerned only about the money and the opinions of the other people that they consider as similar as themselves. Mr Merdle is not worry because his stepson is stupid, as much stupid as we thought he was, he just wants to have a son that he can show in the society...whithout think about the consequences that this could have! So, perhaps he is not as clever as he looks. And only want a wife to display her, and let everybody to see how wealthy he is. So, probably is true that money can buy people.
Chapter XXII is something misterious. We can check the astonishing easyness that Dorrit's family has to ask for money...without any shame. And they pretend to be better than the others!... And we learn from Little Dorrit herself that they pervert -without knowing it- everything that they touch. And we feel even more pity for John.
Good morning:
The Macbeth Japanese version is Akira Kurosawa's Throne of Blood. Luckily it's currently found on DVD in Fnac, El Corte Inglés and places like those, it is not one of those classic films that you cant't watch in Spain. I'm sure you will find it in some public libraries if you don't want to buy it. It's very curious, because it's all Shakespeare, but without Shakespeare. I don't know if it would be a good idea to put it at the school, because the filme is in Japanese, and it could be very tough. I have a VHS copy, recorded from a TV airing, many years ago, which is in Spanish, and the dubbing it's a bit dull. But if you are interested in Macbeth, this is a must see, because it's a very good film. I have a Japanese era, in which I was very interested in Japanese films, later, I have a German era, and I wanted to see German films...This holidays I have been trying to watch some English films, which in Spain are hard to find (why? and then we will have the distributors complaining about people dowloading films that they can not find in Spain...), specially films from the 30s which were the golden age of British films... In Spain, it's very hard and difficult to find or just to watch some classic films...But let's go back to Little Dorrit.
In chapter XXI, we see the higher classes and the Merdles just like they are, hypocrites,greedy, lacking of feeling, concerned only about the money and the opinions of the other people that they consider as similar as themselves. Mr Merdle is not worry because his stepson is stupid, as much stupid as we thought he was, he just wants to have a son that he can show in the society...whithout think about the consequences that this could have! So, perhaps he is not as clever as he looks. And only want a wife to display her, and let everybody to see how wealthy he is. So, probably is true that money can buy people.
Chapter XXII is something misterious. We can check the astonishing easyness that Dorrit's family has to ask for money...without any shame. And they pretend to be better than the others!... And we learn from Little Dorrit herself that they pervert -without knowing it- everything that they touch. And we feel even more pity for John.
Hi everyone!
I read the chapter XXII in which,I could discover, as Carmen said,that Dorrit's family is too interested a family in getting money.
Rosa, you are absolutely right when you say that it is difficult to get hold of English classical films. The only possibility is downloading them!!
I don´t think I would like to watch a Macbeth in...Japanese!!! it would be impossible to follow the scenes without the words. Spanish is not a wonderful choice either, it´s a pity.
Rich people, particularly the self-made man, normally marries into the good families so that his syblings have what he did not, a proper upbringing and a place within Society. It is very difficult to belong to that club if you are an outsider, and marriage provides the bridge. This now and then. Mr. Merdle buys himself an adequate wife, who sits well in drawing rooms, adorned by his money and er jewels. She is not that high, being the widow of a late colonel. However she is the best she can get, if you remember Mr. Stryver was willing to marry "unwell" and take Miss Manette to the altar, but he thought that he would do this as a concession, because he liked her and she was pretty. He saw this as a mistake, as a weakness.
Good afternoon:
Of course, the DVD has Spanish subtitles (I got a copy, as a present, this Christmas), but, even so, it's tough.
I think that Mr Meardle hasn't realize he has made a mistake, because I think that one of the worst things that could happen to you is to have stupid children. If they are not your real children (which is the case) is even worse. They can ruin your life!Yesterday, by the way, I was watching one of those Japanese films which I talked about, and one of the characters said that it was better to have wise enemies than have stupid friends. Of course, this was very common in Little Dorrit's times, I think, because many people got married only because they felt it could be beneficial for them. And we have still in our days histories like this. I don't kbow who are Mr Stryver and Manette, so I can't say what I think about, but I suppose they are from a novel set in the XIX th century.
I think that Chapter XXIII is not bad, and its intention is to make a strong contrast betweeen the Circumlocution Office and Mr Doyce and Mr Meagles' business. Economy, in the countries, is set mostly on small and medium bussiness, but politicians seem unable of seeing it.
To be honest, now I can say that I am not "virgin" about writing in the post so i´ll try to appear here more often, I promise Carmen. Anyway my firts words are related to 23th chapter and focusing in the charater of Flora and the way she wants to be in the middle of her beloved (Mr. Clennam)who was interested in her formerly and currently isn´t , indeed because of his interest in little Dorrit , FLora tries to keep his attention and control the situation by maintaining little dorrit under his demands, so men, be careful, if some woman who is interested in you and can not gain your attentions she will try to disturb the others pretenders in order to provoque annoying situations to achieve her purposes.
Good nigth:
The Chapter XXII is very misterious. We have the Patriarch and Pancks and they are involved in some kind of strange business that doesn't seem very clean. And they, Pancks and Flora, who is again trying to get back Arthur,are very interested about Amy and her family. Why? And Mr F's Aunt seems to hate Arthur. Why? It is only because she is an old, colorful, mad woman? Or does she have any other reason? I think that Flora wants to hire Dorrit because she knows that Arthur is concerned about her, and she wants to know why, and, by the way, to get him back by doing a favor a person who seems to be interesting to him. And we have Mr Jean Baptiste again here, one of the characters is talking about him. The ending is very interesting, because you can see that people indulge the people who have a good looks. They love the Patriarch, because, because of his being handsome and looking like respectable, they thing him a good man, but they hate Pancks because he looks creepy, and because he does "the dirty work". But we can see clearly that he is only concerned about money, and getting more and more of that.
It is nice to have you here, Fernando. It is true that women could be very bitchy with the others about their men, but I think that not all the women are like this. If I loved a man, and I knew he has already a love interest, I think I wouldn't try to stole him from her, because this is a very ugly thing, excedenly ugly, and I think that if you really love a person, you don't love him in a selfish way, expecting his love, or any other thing in return, you would want to see him happy, even if he is with other girl. You could thing this is very romantic and unrealistic, but it's the truth, I have loved men who have already girlfriends and I didn't try to get them. And it's very sad and painful, but, I tell you, love is not happy, to be in love is to suffer.
Good night.
I mean, "in getting more and more".
Rosa both the characters I mentioned are from "a tale", try reading it you will love it I´m sure.
It is very unslefish and very "unwomanly" not to try to sneak a man from his lady, life and history have many painful cases of this. We have to bear in mind that men are not our property, but this is difficult, I certainly do not like sharing men with other women but funnily enough I don´t mind certain "sharings" provided he is MINE. I´m afraid this is very basic..
Fernando, I´m glad to red you. So you think that women involve rivals with their beloved to have a certain power over them?? How silly, I think it would be to do that!!! He would fall more for her, seeing her at all times!!! I would never act in this way, i do not think that "absence makes the heart grow fonder" works all that effectively...
I think that Flora wants to be extra nice, so as Clennam is interested in Little Dorrit she will her a job, however and funnily enough, I do think Flora to be a good girl, she is simple, she is not ver clever, and she has the Peter Pan complex, thus she sticks to youth that she has lost, but she is nice to Mr F.´s Aunt and sticks to her, and she has taken to the bottle. I have found that those people who like wine tend to be nicer than those who do not...don´t ask me why.
perhaps you could post osme of your ideas about lady Macbeth here, i´m quite curious to know what you think, I have not yet worked you out... Do you analise women or "merely adore them"?
Rosa I quite agree with you in that chapter is a transition one which leaves us a bit muddled. Mrs. F´s Aunt hate clennam because Flora likes him, that is for sure and Pancks appears to be mysterious and we are wary of him, but I have a positive feeling for him, he seems to be clever as I do for John Baptist, we´ll seee and understand the chapter better when we read on.
lol, It is funny to see that after on term of the year already passed you don´t understand a simple man mind, i like to be a little ironic and put always a bit of pepper in everything i do in my life. Respecting to my comment about Flora, i am just describing a currently situation which is happening to me, an Ex-girfriend of mine wants to comment previous situations lived with me in order to be readed by my girlfriend(on facebook) i don´t know really her intentions but i suspect that because of her failing in falling in love again and his worrying of having lost me , I hope, forever, it´s trying to appear constantly, inviting us to have dinner in her house, probably to meet my beloved and try to understand why I am not more interested in her, i don´t know how far is she going to go with this attitude, but i am eager to know his real intentions, all of you will be informed about the pass of the events, if you want, of course.
And answering your question and in my humble opinion, I have to say that i think that women are more interesting than men, and for me every woman has something special inside, probably that is the reason because of that I have a great respect and admiration for you all. Tomorrow I´ll write more, now I have to go on working and read a bit , if i have time, of chapter 24.
See you soon all folks
Hello! I was passing by and read your interesting discussion on women and I´m going to take the liberty to drop my opinion, even though I haven´t read Little Dorrit! I hope you don´t mind the
intrusion...
As Carmen says, I do think women behave like this according to a sense of property. We like things which are ours or which we think are ours. Flora must be recalling the time she "owned" him and, even though their relationship is over, now that a new comer has arrived, feels... unease. However, I will add jealousy as another agent that leads us to be bitchy. No matter how much or little we love or like a man that we will be jealous. Some of us claim not to be so, but... I doubt it...
What is Flora feeling? Lack of property or jealosy? Or both?
Fernando, really, your ex-girlfriend is clearly jealous. I don´t think that if she had a new boyfriend she would behave differently, do you? But I may be wrong... Have you answered the questions she´s asked you on facebook? Which kind of questions did she ask? Fernando, forgive my curiosity, but this is so interesting! Now I myself am feeling jealous... and even though he has not ever been 'mine', I feel that I´ve lost against... a bitch! Also, I would love to arrange all sort of, as you called them, "annoying things" to... remark her faults... which he seems not to see... yet. Bitchy, bitchy of me...
María
Good morning:
I have read all your last messages, and I very, very intriged. Are we talking about the same thing? Am I so old fashioned? And, I mean, I know what I am talking about because, sadly, I have lived such kind of situation, and not one, but several times. Am I the only person who thinks that the world of love is the world of passion, self-denying, sufferings, terrible emotions, great romance? Because I have the feeling that you are mistaking to be in love with to be infatuated, or love smitten...Fancy, not love. Real love leaves you a scar in your heart. To match with other women for a man...is so vulgar for me, so unkind, so lowsy...Like if you were in the sales.... I have been in love, in my life, with several men. None of them loved me, and almost all had already girlfriends. Did I try "to win" any of him, altough I knew that, in several cases, their beloved were very inferior to them? No, I didn't. I had no rigth of doing that. Did I suffer? Till the tears. But I don't repent of that. Perhaps it was the best for all. Perhaps that is because of what I already said, I am not fit, I know there is more, but not for me.
In my opinion, Flora is a good, kind woman. She is not intelligent, of course, she can be very anoying, but she doesn't seem to be jealous, or vengeful, she could be vulgar, but she is not bitchy, we can see that in the next chapter, in the way in which she behaves to Amy. And Carmen, I think, said something about wine that probably is true. Have you realize that the worst characters in the history are teetotaler? Think about Hitler (who was, also, a vegetarian), and about Count Dracula, who "never drank wine" (at less, at the Universal film).
Have a good day.
Well, what an interesting reading I´ve just had!!!
Fernando, first of all "the reason why" "a current situation" "inability to fall in love again and HER worries" and other things, so keep writing to correct these mistakes.
As to what you say, what is her objective in writing of the past in facebook? her objective is to make your current girlfriend jealous and to create conflict between you two. inviting you to dine? to be with you and try to see what the other one is like to poit out her blemishes, which have not found out yet, given that "love is blind" to you!!! I´m interested in your girlfriend´s reaction, how does she take this? If she be clever she should stop this NOW and she should stop reading anything she writes, because this will cause trouble between you two!! her reaction to this will enable you to see what she is like, but see it, don´t turn a blind eye on this....
women are never nice to new gilrfriends until they have been very nasty!!
María, you jealous!!! but I thought you cool and...in control...I would like to know what happened, and who is the cause of that venting of...honesty from your..fingers (oozing from the heart)onto the keyboard!!
I don´t think that Fernando´s ex would be jealous if she had found a replacement, though I havve to say that there is nothing women hate so much as losing an admirer...it is very annoying to be forgotten, whether you did not love seems to be unimportant.
Having said this, and given that you are a good girl, I think that he must be, he is a PIG!!!As to the new comer...a climber, for sure.
"Are all men bad?"
"Yes, ALL of them" (Oscar Wilde)
Rosa, but you are a saint!!! really you remind me of Flora crying on the sofa, as is said in 23, the difference being that she had been forced to break up with her lover, and you could not even break up because there was no relationship!!! You fal in love with the wrong man in the wrong situation. I wonder if this is because you are safe like this, you see there are no risks if you cannot, from the start have a relationship, because he already has one!!! You are in love with love, you like the idea of love, but you´d rather not experience it just in case you suffer?? You may say that you have cried enough, yes, but in a nice comfortable way because he could not leave, as he was never there. There is a type of woman who will never become involved with men because she is too frightened of being dropped. you are this type. Now, there is someone out there waiting to find you, allow him to do it!!! but, mind, you will have to make sacrifices, lots and you may not be as happy as you think "when the gods want to punish men they grant them their wishes"
Flora is one of my favourites in this novel, she makes me laugh, so funny!! and "I dearly love a laugh"
Hello everyone....After reading the end of Marian´s story I am very excited as well as quite confused around Percival´s secret. Fosco is Percival´s close friend but Percival denies to reveal the secret. Moreover, Fosco is committed to help Sir Percival because this latter would fund the Fosco´s debts. Likewise, Sir Percival cares the most catching Anne to assure the secret is safe more than to persuade Laure to sign the deeds. Given that, I think Anne´s secret is quite related to Laura´s inheritance. Thus, could Anne´s one of the potencial heir? It may Anne is a secret sister of Laura. We know nothing about Mr. Fairlie.
See you!
Good morning to all.
First of all, thank you Carmen for correcting my mistakes, i hope in short it will be better than now.
I diden´t suspect the amaze that has cause my particular case, therefore i am going to put more light in the story.
The last thing has happened has been the answer of my girfriend(without any participation at present till now) linkening to a conversation between my ex and me in which she was trying to enbarrase me in a sexual topic which i tried to be polite and elegant, due to this my "ex" has stop writting things about us on facebook( no answer in one day)
However, this situation has puzzled me a bit,I agree with you Carmen that she don´t want to loose an admirer of her and try by all means to attract my attention, luckily i am not easy to disturb with these things, i think i have a strong personality which will permit me get rid of bad thougts about her. After having a profitable conversation between my girfriend and I about this issue, we have concluded that nothing of this "reactions" is going to be a problem between us, she, better than me, knows this kind of attitudes and she will take measures if necessary.
Thank you , Maria for your contribution for the case, hehe, it really don´t bother me, so you can continue giving opinions if it is your desire, ;-)
Finally, Rosa, persevere in the wonderful world of love becose when you least expect it, it will knock your door strongly.
See you this very noon.
Good morning:
No, no, I am not a saint at all. I am mean, and selfish, and rancorous. But, you see, there are some things in this world that you shouldn't do, and this is one of them. As my dad says, because, at the ending, the truth is always known, and life puts everybody in the their rigth places.
May be you are rigth, but, when I fell in love whith those men, I didn't know they were already engaged. Of course, there have been people who had loved me, but I didn't love them (because they were old, or perverts, or...girls, and I didn't want to go whith a girl, now, I don't know, but I don't have time for such things...). Therefor, because all these thinks, I think I can understand Flora, and like her, altough not very much...
Chapter XXIV is intriguing and strange. It seems that Mr Pancks knows very much about Amy and her family, and doesn't bother himself in hiding it. Even more, he even boasts that in front of Amy. And, logically, she is terrified. But, why did he say she must to keep herself alive? Is her life in danger? Perhaps I am wrong, but I suspect that he is not as bad as he looks, and he is fed up of Mr Casby. Perhaps because she is afraid, Amy doesn't want to leave her room, and spends her time daydreaming, and telling Maggy strange stories which could reflect some aspects of her life.
Thanks, Fernando, for letting me give my opinion. I really like giving my opinion.. je je. Not sure whether I like others giving their opinions about me!, mainly when I don't want them to be... right!
I'm ever so glad that you have had a most profitable chat with your girlfriend that leaves the ex out of scene. She is mischevous! I really pity her. He cannot forget you and she hates it. That's why she is trying now to hurt you, trying to ridiculise you or your...sexual performances! (Isn't it the most despicable action?) I'm ever so glad that you have a strong personality and are not affected by this matter, because most of the times, certain sexual... shortcomings lead men to develop insecurity and inferiority complex!
The cause of my venting of honesty (you are a poet, Carmen) was no other than to illustrate, with another example, that women, sometimes out of control (even me), when feeling the loss of a man, may be capable of doing outrageous deeds. Fernando's ex is being mischevious because she feels and realises she's lost him. I myself would love to be mischevious because I don't want to lose! Haven't you ever felt the need to be mischevious yourselves?
According to the bets, the new comer (a climber indeed) is not even interested in him! Isn't it annoying? Why then doesn't she vanish and leave us alone? However, he seems to be interested in her... (shit). Pigs! Pigs! Pigs!
Rosa, sometimes it is better not to have time for love. It makes everything too complicated... Reading books is much better.
Back to the blog, I'm surprised by the amount of comments. I hope to read them all to catch up soon.
Perhaps my comments are a bit outdated, but I could not post them earlier. I’m sorry.
There was no shadow of Mr Merdle’s complaint on any sense you could imagine. He was very rich and he turned all he touched to gold. Therefore he was always surrounded by all kind of magnates that were always willing to celebrate all his successes. This seems to be a law of life that is repeated in all time and place. Don’t you think so?
Otherwise, Mr Merdle’s unique interest was Society, and he did everything for Society. He had a son in law very short of intelligence but Mr Merdle was not worried by this, because Mr Sparkler only was to him like a possession more to show in Society; just as his wife only was the necessary pretext to show his great diversity of jewels in order to attract general admiration. So, Mr Merdle is a man that only thinks of himself and for whom other people are just objects that have no value in themselves.
A crowd of people always swarmed round Mr Merdle, as the flies round an appetizing cake, trying to get some benefit; but at the same time, all these parasites watched carefully trying to discover a glimpse of weakness in him. However, much as they sought some shadow of uncertainty around him, nobody could find any cause for concern. But I think that if one day he fell they would leave him and they would look for another cake, therefore they are always very attentive.
In consequence, by the moment Mr Merdle is an inexhaustible source of wealth and success, while Dorrit Family is suffering the darkening influence of the shadow of Marshalsea. And, therefore, Fanny’s position in front of Mr Sparkler remind me the vixen in the famous fable, when seeing the unattainable grapes, said: “they are not riped.”
We see very clear Mr Dorrit’s selfishness in chapter XXII. Mr Clennam fallowing Little Dorrit’s request didn’t give money to him and Mr Dorrit was very disappointed with his behaviour, because he thought that it didn’t correspond with the “high instincts” that he had attributed to him. But Mr Dorrit went on showing himself very kind and amiable to him, because he had not lost hope that Mr Clennam be generous with him again. But very polite and friendly as Mr Dorrit showed himself, Mr Clennam didn’t act according with Mr Dorrit’s expectation; so, he lost patience and decided to write him and to ask him some money, what provoked Amy’s shame and disappointment.
Poor Amy! she got very sorry and helpless before Mr Clennam; therefore she thought that Marshalsea being her natural place was the only place where she was at ease. But, when she was there, she thought of Mr Clennam faithfully; and we know that this is not the first time that she has thought of him in a romantic way. Moreover, we have seen that when she walked in the iron bridge, having recognized Mr Clennam’s steps, she turned her head before Mr Clennam reached her. In consequence, don’t you think that Amy is falling in love with Mr Clennam?
Otherwise, Mr Clennam thinks more and more in Little Dorrit. Therefore, I think that it is possible that one day he should overcome his shyness and his fear of women, and that he should declare his love for her.
In my opinion, Mr Doyce and Mr Clennam have achieved a very good association, because their partnership is based in honesty for both sides, and in their good will. And I also think that Mr Clennam, after having leaving his family’s enterprise, needs to do something to have his mind occupied in order to avoid wasting his life thinking of the others, without doing something for himself. But good and well meaning as Mr Clennam seems to be, I don’t know if he will be able to lead the company forward, because he has also demonstrated some weakness and uncertainty.
We have seen that Mr Clennam is afraid of failure in front of women. He has tried to cool his relationship with Flora, calling her Mrs Finching and ignoring her tender eyes; he decided to avoid to fall in love with Pet, because she was beautiful, intelligent, sensitive,...and he thought that the more perfect she was the more probability of failure he was. And, finally she is thinking of Little Dorrit day and night but he considers that he is too old to her. In conclusion, he is always thinking the negative side of himself and therefore he sees in himself a loser.
But let us be optimistic! Let us think that this defeatist position of Mr Clennam is only deployed in front of women.
Mr Pancks takes in chapter XXIII an unexpected prominence. He has proved to be a man capable of resolving practical problems; and as a man of business he points out in his note-book all kind of things he considers of any interest to his business. Moreover, he has as well revealed as a good stage actor, like in the passage in which he achieved to get Mrs F’Aunt out of the counting-house with great gallantry and success. Considering that he had been portrayed as a dirty, slovenly and dark fellow, I was very astonished by his successful performance; in my opinion, he demonstrated to be a man of resources and to have a resolving capacity. Don’t you think so?
In his desire of controlling everything, he surprised Mr Clennam with his inquiry about Little Dorrit and her family. And we discovered that he had already talked with Mr Plornish; and he had also contacted with John Baptist Cavalletto, the foreigner man that had been hit on the street and that Mr Clennam had accompanied to the hospital.
So, in my view, Mr Pancks, given the relationships that he has, is going to play an important role in the novel. Otherwise, being John Baptist in the circle of Mr Clennam’s friends, I suspect that we will see very soon Mr Rigaud appear and project his sinister fade to someone. I can’t imagine who will be the new victim of such an ominous fellow. Can You?
Mr Clennam and Mr Doyced, after having formed their partnership, dined together to celebrate the event, with Mr Meagles and all the workers and their families. And the following days, Mr Clennam was so busy that he had not had time of doing anything more nor to visit his friends.
Flora was a little upset with Mr Clennam for not having given her the news. And she decided to visit him and to complain bitterly, without missing the opportunity to throw him the old suggestive glances, and to deploy all her wordiness about the circumstances of the breaking of their old relationship; but Mr Clennam, though very friendly, addressed her as Mrs Flintching to cool the relationship. But, although Flora knows that Arthur has lost his youthful enthusiasm for her, she doesn’t give up. And I like very much the way she talk about his coolness when she said: “if I hadn’t known it to be China I should have guessed myself the Polar regions.” So, Flora is a persistent woman and continues courting Arthur and showing her interest in pleasing him; thus, she told him that she was going to engage Little Dorrit, after knowing that he had interest in her. In my view, Flora’s discourse and her gesture and allusions are very funny, and as well Mr F’s Aunt nonsense. Otherwise, in my opinion, Flora’s interest in helping Little Dorrit is not totally selfless, because it is possible that she want to control Mr Clennam’s relationship with Amy.
In consequence, we see that, Flora tries to restore her old relationship with Arthur again and again, but until now Arthur shows himself colder than an iceberg. And, in my view, Flora will not achieve his target. Don’t you think so?
Good afeternoon:
Well, Isidro, is nice to have you back there, and I am glad of seeing that you has read (and understood) the next chapters (because they have been a bit puzzling to me).
I quite agree with you. I think that, of course, Flora is not going to get back Mr Clennam. But, even so, I think she is not bittered, or angry. I think she knows she is not going to have any sucess, but, even so, she tries.
I agree very much whith your commentaries about Mr Pancks, a rather misterious and astonishing man. A bit terrifying, but I think not really bad. Don't you think he is fed up of his patron, Mr Casby? I have the feeling of his investigations about the Dorrits, are made by his own, I mean, Mr Casby didn't order him to to that.
Good nigth:
In adition, I have realized that Flora has another problem. Her life is very lonely and boring, all the day alone at that house, only with her father and Mr F's Aunt. So, when she can talk , because she has somebody to talk whith, of course, she talks a lot.
You have mentioned the wine, but I think that food is an even more important relief, specially for women. Who has never eaten a lot of chocolate, or cookies, or something like that when was lonely, or sad?
Rosa, thank you for your words of welcome. I also think that the last chapters are a little enigmatic, specially Mr Panks’ interest in investigating Mr Dorrit’s family and his other initiatives. In my view, he is a man of instinct to discover shady business to earn money, and he imagines that there must be something behind Mr Clennam and Mr Casby’s interest in Little Dorrit.
In chapter XXII, Mrs Chivery, being very worried about her son, asked Mr Clennam to talk with Dorrit’s Family to intercede for John. In my view, her description of the opinion of the different members of the Dorrits’ family about her son is very accurate. Don’t you think so?
She told Mr Clennam that Fanny and his brother scorned his son and that the father of Marshalsea was a selfish man that only thought of himself. But what the most caught my attention was Mr Clennam’s perplexity and disappointment before the possibility of Little Dorrit being in love with John or someone person like him.
Mr Clennam told Mrs Chivery that he would try to promote Miss Dorrit ‘s happiness and to further the wishes of her heart, and although Mrs Chivery was not very satisfied by Mr Clennam answer, they parted good friends; but if she had known that Mr Clennam could not stop thinking of Little Dorrit, day and night, she would not have asked him to intercede on behalf of her son.
Mr Clennam will not speak in favor of Mrs Chivery’s son because he only want to promote Little Dorrit’s happiness; but in my opinion he is also thinking of his own happiness; therefore, I think that he will have no choice but to overcome his shyness and to declare his love to Little Dorrit. However, he has a low self-esteem and he is afraid of women because of the treatment that he received from his mother when he was a child; so, I doubt that he has the necessary courage to take the initiative. What do you think about this?
"I diden´t suspect the amazeMENT that has causeD"
"she don´t/DOESN´T want to loose an admirer of her/HERS and try/TRIES.."
"it really don´t/DOESN´T bother me..",
If you are going to sit an exam, and you have to write you really have to write everyday becasue there is a lot of correcting to be doen. Some of your sentences are difficult to understand, stick to the pattern SUBJECT, VERB,OBJECT, ADVERBIAL, the basic one until you have grasped it. Every day a post.
Why is it that whenever we want to hurt someone from the other sex we always revert to ...sex? Fernando, I´m afraid that you are not a writer!!! you started well with your story but the conclusion, so...fast and so unclear has made it somewhat...flat. What can we say? that your current girlfriend has come to terms with the problems that she was having at the hands of the other one and has solved it by not answering??? And that you are cool about it all? well,congrats, but from the point of view of the story...flat.
Rosa,Flora has settled down to a "contented" life. She lives with Papa, eats well, drinks better, and nurses her lost love for Arthur, better Mr Clennam, believing herself, currently, to have some chances of kindling Arthur´s love into a renewal of his addresses!!!!
I understand Flora as well, she has written her novel about her life, all very romantic, all ver unreal, we can see this perfectly well in her conversation with Little Dorrit in chapter 24, and little Dorrit believes that there is something between them. That´s why she is melancholic when she returns to the prison
María, I have bitchied as much as I could whenever I have been crossed in love!!! men accept defeat better, or let´s say most men!! I perfectly understand you. What I hate of men is the way they will go out "hunting" on the grounds that she is very nice and we are just going out for coffee and a chat!!! never admitting that what they are doing is trying, in their case to end up in bed. Women will go out for a reason as well, they would admit going out ecause they like him, but they would never admit they are going out with the ultimate idea of starting sth., a relationship.
what do you think, folks?
Isidro, we have missed you very much so i´m glad you are back!!! how were your hols? all tanned?
some very interesting posts, I would like to pick on the comment of the grapes about Fanny, I don´t fully see where you are getting and what you have said about Clenam´s fear of women!! You are absolutely right! He is insecure with women, difficult to understand as he was very successful with Flora, but his upbringing, that coldness of his mother, must have hindered his self-confidence, in a strange way, he doesn´t seem to be unable to follow the right track, where honesty is concerned but love...
Isidro, how sharp you are!! Pancks, yes he is clever and hard-working, he investigates...learns...knows...how important is he going to be in the novel? I think that he is one of Dickens seconds, who always prove to be cleverer than the firsts. Why else would Flora´s father, he who I have not yet grasped (Is he a rogue?), would employ him?
Isidro, I don´t think that Arthur, think as he might about little Dorrit, considers her a prospective lover or partner for life. You did not marry a girl living in a prison at that time!!
Sometimes you mix with people without valueing them and only when you realize about the possibility of losing them do you think about what this would mean!!
After Mr Plornish telling Little Dorrit the interest of Flora’s family of engaging her, she arrived at Casby’s house early in the morning, and Flora received her very well, talking and talking and talking... Flora was very amiable and generous to her and even asked her not to work that day because she saw her weakness and paleness, but Amy’s conscience didn’t permit her to be idle.
So extrovert was Flora that Little Dorrit was aware along the first meeting of the full story of Flora and Mr Clennam’s relationship; and she got very concerned when she knew that Flora and Mr Clennam had been in love of each other, and that their relationship was a little uncertain now. This conversation affected her very much because of the mixed emotions that she felt. Thus, on the one hand, she had to be grateful to Flora and Mr Clennam’s kindness; but, on the other hand she felt such intense emotion when Flora talked about her relationship with Mr Clennam that she got momentarily indisposed and had to stop working for a while.
In my opinion, this reaction is other proof of her being in love with Mr Clennam. And I think that she is going to suffer very much because she knows that she belongs to a lower world that the one of Flora and Mr Clennam. Very kindly and friendly that Flora be, Amy knows that the only possibility of her having any relationship with Flora is through the one corresponding to the lady and the maid; and she also knows that Mr Clennam belongs to the same class than Flora’s; and this is the cause of her frustration and despondency.
So, Amy is honest with herself and with others, and she doesn’t try to conceal her wretched condition as Fanny would have done in a similar situation.
Isidro, I completely agree with you. I think Little Dorrit feels overwhelming about the information she receives from the indiscreet Miss Flora. Especially because, if I have understood well, Miss Flora hints at the possibility of retaking (in the strictest secret) the romantic relationship Mr Clennam and she had once had. Flora is deliberately blind regarding Arthur. She attempts to persuade herself to think her fault was to have married Mr F. But, in fact, there is not any fault; it is Mr Clennam that is not in love with Flora any more. From my point of view and despite being utterly devastated at that moment, Mr Clennam was very fortunate for not marrying Flora in his youth. I really think that Mrs Clennam and Mr Casby, without knowing it, did Arthur a big favour forbidden their relationship. The feelings, the way you see life and love and your preferences and tastes change a lot along the time. It is only when you are old enough that you really know what you really want. Do you think in the same way as I do?
Good afternoon:
I quite agree with the last post, except about two or three facts. I don't think that Arthur is afraid of Young John, or I cannot see why she thinks he is a menace to him, I cannot see his disapointment. Altough Arthur probably is insecure whith women, despite his success with Flora.
I think that Flora knows that Arthur is not going to come back whith her, but even so, she likes to thing that it could be possible. And I think that a woman like her, didn't have much things to to in Great Britain during that period, but go back to their parent's house. She is not young, she is not extremely beautiful, she is not an educated person. Of course, she could have married again, but I suspect that was not very well regarded. At less, she is rich and widow, which gives her more liberty than other women of those times had. If she had been, for example, French, she could had had a lover, altough it was not positive, it was not as badly regarded as in other countries; if she were Spanish, she could have became a nun. And I think that's all, not a great deal of options...
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