The groups of level A1 are going to read this novel by Jane Austen during the course. Please join in and post your comments.
15 de octubre de 2009
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Wilkie Collins
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Concurso 2007-08
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«El más antiguo ‹Más antiguo 601 – 800 de 907 Más reciente› El más reciente»Chapter 43.
Thank you very much, Mata for correcting my mistakes. You are very patient.
The mystery between Jane and Frank is increasing.
I think it is very important what Jane answers to Frank when he remarks that the Eltons were very lucky to marry so successfully after knowing each other for only a few weeks.
Miss Fairfax comments that many such attachments are formed, but they can be broken up... (last paragraph in page 349)
She says: “An imprudent attachment may arise – but there is time to recover”…
Frank Ch, is affected by this comment from Jane so I think that Jane has said something important for them.
Is it possible that they had an attachment or that they have broken up an attachment?
Marta, I agree with you. I think that the word hysteric may be exaggerated to describe Jane situation. Perhaps the word could be a depressive neurosis. It is true that Jane never loses control and never shows in public any feeling, but psychological experts tell us that the people more intelligent and more perfectionist are more frequent affected by this type o problems. They control difficult conflicts but the result may be the psychological depression.
Jane is an intelligent person that is be able to control difficult situation: she can bear Mrs Elton, who is such a pain in the neck, and she reminds imperturbable being relegated while Frank and Emma flirt together, but in my opinion the consequence of this impeccable behaviour is the development of her neurosis: she has a permanent dreadful headache, she has been crying all time, and her aunt said to Emma that she was “as low as possible”.
Well, Marta, hysteric may be an exccesive word to describe Jane’s situation, perhaps it would be better to say depressive neurosis or only depression. But the very important thing is that there is so interesting aspects in the novel that we could write a thick treatise.
I'm sorry. Jane's situation
Carmen Segura, you have quoted an interesting passage. In my opinion, Frank makes fun of Mr and Mrs Elton’s hurry in getting married, and Jane took the opportunity to make a comment with regard to their own relationship.
I think that Krank is a weak person that doesn’t dear to take an engagement that Mr and Mrs Churchill doesn’t approve. It is possible that Frank should love Jane but he shouldn’t dear to ask them permission to marry Jane.
We know the opposition of Mrs Churchill to Mr Weston’s first marriage, and it’s possible that that Mrs Churchill would take a similar position with Frank.
Jane’s words are a little unclears because she can’t speak more clearly in front of the others, but her words show us that she and Frank have a great disagreement.
Finally, the situation became insufferable to Jane, when Frank asked Emma that should choose a wife for him. In his words:
“I am in no hurry….(…)….. I shall go abroad for a couple of years…”
In my opinion it is more than Jane could endure. Poor Jane!!! She is a bomb about to explode!!!
It's possible that Mrs Churchill took a similar position to Frank.
I'm sorry.
a similar position with Frank
permission to marry her.
Mrs Churchill's opposition.
I'm sorry. I advance very slowly, step by step. More a look at my texts more errors I see.
I look.
Oh dear! another mistake! I don't understand how it is possible.
Emma visited Ms Bates to try to recover the good relationship with her, and she was surprised to see that Ms Bates had forgotten her indelicacy.
However, Emma was very shocked when she knew that Jane had decided to accept Mrs Elton’s offer of going as a governess, without hoping Mr Campbell return. As well, Emma felt pity to Jane when Ms Bates told her that Jane was suffering a lot, because of a dreadful headache.
In my opinion Jane is very upset with Frank’s continuous double play. She expected to attract him but at the end it seems that Frank is unable to take something seriously. I believe that Jane love Frank, and it is possible that, as Marta thinks, Frank’s double play should have intensified her love, but she can’t stand be relegated in public for more time.
And what do you think of Emma’s suggestion, at the end of the chapter, about the pianoforte? She can’t imagine that Frank should have bought the piano to Jane, but we do.
We know that Jane have received a letter from Ireland inviting her to go there, and I don’t believe that they wouldn’t tell her it, if they had bought the piano. So, in my opinion, by exclusion, there isn’t other possibility than should have been Frank.
Jane loves Frank
Chapter 44.
Emma is repented and contrite in several occasions. First was in chapter 16.
One time more she is reflecting and feeling alone and humiliated.
She visits the Bateses to say sorry. Emma is good at making mistakes but she is good at saying sorry.
In this chapter we realized that Miss Bates is very polite and sarcastic, at the same time, when she tells Emma that she is “always” kind.
Isidro, I think that the word “always” means that she has not forgotten, but she can forgive.
On the other hand I am thinking if Jane tells Frank her decision of taking the job when they met in the way from Donwell to Jane’s home.
Do you think that it could be the reason that made angry Frank Churchill?
Or, do you think that Jane accepts the job when she knows that Frank Ch is going to Richmond?
Page 359. (John told Mr Elton that he sent the carriage to Randall to take Frank Ch. That was before the tea and then, after tea, Jane spoke to Mrs Elton)
I am a bit angry because I want to know more but I am very slow reading English.
I am catching by the novel and I am sleeping badly. In the middle of the night I am thinking of the novel. How a disaster it is!!!!!!!!!!!
Love is blind often, this is a real statement, and however it is difficult for me to consider that Jane, intelligent as she is, could bear such sort of person as Frank Churchill is. Don’t you think that Jane does not fit properly with Frank’s personality? I don’t know, perhaps she should be in love with Frank and, after his shameful behavior in Box Hill, she should have noticed it is better to disappear. So she just has accepted the occupation as a governess. I really agree with all of you that Frank Churchill is the worst character at that point. He has been disrespectful, inconsiderate, arrogant…
On the other hand, if there should have been certain complicity between Frank and Jane sometimes, would this complicity be of a different nature? Could it be possible? Could they share any kind of secret that should work out annoyed for both? I am remembering Mr. Dixon character.
In my opinion Jane is not really ill. She uses her illness to avoid social relationships which are too difficult at this moment.
Carmen I think what Jane answers is very important.. ORDER S+V+O+A don't use IT...what...,
A very sharp comment yes it seems as if there was something between them they are acting strangely and I'm sure that she says that with a double sense.
Isidro, .. that is able to control diffi situationS..,she remains.., there are interesting..,
With depression I can agree, no wonder she is depressed she has a terrible prospect and if she has something to hide that means that she is probably very anxious.
Next comment, doesn't dare.., Mr.+Mrs C wouldn't approve.,J's words are a little unclear.., adj never in pl!!! asked E to choose a wife.., the more I look at.. the more...,
Well that shows you are learning so it is good. I agree with you they might have something and he is afraid to tell his uncle and aunt.
But if so they are doing very wrong deceiving everyone and he behaving abominably to E, something that serves her right.
Isidro, without waiting for Mr.C's.., J loveS F.., ..can't stand to be relegated..,than that it should have been Frank..
I suppose you are right, it couldn't be the Campbells they would have said so, but how about Mr.D? However that could have been another of E's bitchy comments.
What is clear is that Frank is horrible and he doesn't give a damn about other people's feelings, what would E feel if she had been in love with him?
It seems that E. is not aware of her wrong doings if Mr. K. doesn't tell her. Only after did he tell her off she realised how ill-bred she had been to Miss Bates. But, she is not still concious that eveybody, included Mr.K., must be thinking that there is more than a friendship between she and F.
On the other hand, E. flirts with F. only for having a good time, in spite of thinking that H. is in love whith him. However, F. is using both, E. and "the game" to hurt J. He wants J. to tell him her thougths (her decision), but talking about his bad luck and how a bad acquaintance can ruin a man's life, F. forces J. to reply and she decedes to break up the relationship that she has with him.
Hi mates! Isidro, I agree with you, Jane is in love with Frank and in my opinion, she knows this relationship is very difficult because of society and Frank´s cowardice. Maybe, for her, it becomes a challenge, like Marta´s opinion and she feels more interested in him. But in any case, I think she is suffering a lot of because her character, which is pusillanimity and make her bear everything. From my point of view, she is bearing more than she can and it is destroying her physical and emotional health. I wouldn´t like it be in her position.
Frank is acting like an immature child, he is always waiting for other´s approvals and he doesn´t take advantage of his opportunities.Because of it everybody around him is suffering, E. and J.
I feel pity for E. I agree with María about she is flirting with him only to have a good time, she isn´t in love with him, but it´s normal. She sees he is flirting with her and she feels flattered and goes on playing too. Everybody also does it. All of us like liking,don´t we? I don´t see an evil action in this.
I agree too she doesn´t acting perfectly with other, but she is good at apologizing when she realizes she was wrong, although Mr. K has opened her eyes before. But when you are young and everybody (less Mr, K) makes you feel your perfect is very
difficult to see your mistakes and I believe it is a hard process which E. is doing now. So, for first time, I´m going to be soft with her.
Mates, I´m going to work out from Madrid this days, so I can´t see you before holidays. Have a nice days and we´ll each other in the blog. Kisses
Carmen, it is possible but I also think that Miss. Bates is honest when she says E is always kind, I think she is incapable of deceit, a bit like Isabella and Mr.Woodhouse.
..That made F.C angry you must be careful because you use the Spanish structure often remember the English S+V+O+A,
I am caught by the novel..what a disaster it is!
I don't think so, I think it is fantastic that you are so interested in the novel, it is good for your English and I'm sure for you too! What's better than a novel and of this kind too?
I agree with you that maybe Jane accepted her job because of Frnak and his attitude, he is horrible!
Ana Mª, such a sort..,
I agree with all you say, Frank is undoubtedly the worst character in the novel as Mr.K said I also dislike him immensely. Why does J like him?? Well he is handsome and very rich, it must be that. She is not stupid and she has chosen a very rich man, now she is realising that all that glitters is not gold!!
María, only after he told her off did she realise.., between her and F..,
I think you are right and that it is certainly his attitude which has brought the storm about.
You are very right about E who as you say flirts with her friends prospective boyfriend. She is very condescending too, I don't want him so you can take him, I don't like her much. The only good thing is how she treats her father, she is very good with him, and her capacity to repent
Carol, and makes her..,
I agree with you about that, all the suffering is telling on her health, now she can't bear E either, you remember she left when she came to apologize and I don't wonder. It is horrible to have to play up to those rich people but it happens all the time.
..like being liked.., she doesn't act.., these days.., have a nice holiday..,
The same to you we'll keep in touch.
As to what you say about E you are very kind and right, we forget she is young but it is true that there are other young people and they behave better.
Carmen, I think that Mss Bates is very simple to be so ironic, and a very good person unable of having resentment. She received Emma with these words: “Ah! Miss Woodhouse, how kind you are!
I think that she has forgiven Emma. If you read attentively when she says “always kind”, she is speaking of the people who were in Mrs Elton’s house. Her words were: “Such kind friends, Miss Woodhouse, one must always find agreeable”.
With regard to the moment of the decision of accepting the job, it is clear that it wasn’t the they of the party at Donwell, because we read in chapter 44: “when Jane first heard of it (it was the day before yesterday, the very morning we were at Donwell), when Jane first heard of it , she was quite decided against accepting the offer”
Carmen. I’sorry.
Now, I have found the quote where Mrs Bates used the expression “always kind”. I didn’t find it because I looked for it when they met.
Obviously, your view is possible. But this option perhaps should be influenced by Emma’s shame, instead of Mrs Bates’s intention.
Isidro I quite agree with you I think she is too good to bear a grudge against anybody let alone E who is the Queen of Highbury.
I agree also that the possibility exists but I doubt it
I'm sorry
the day of the party
Marta, I wish you recover from your illness very soon.
I would like to attract attention about the sad situation of Harriet in chapter 45. In reality, her situation is the same than ever, but in this occasion her loneliness seems to be greater. Emma arrived home when Harriet and Mr K were with Mr Woodhouse. Mr K said to Emma that he was going to London and they talked to each other. Finally, he took her hand and, when she thought he was going to kiss it, he “let it go”. Emma was a little disappointed and she thought that it would have been better she should have arrived before. Afterward, she informed her father of Miss Fairfax’s decision of going out as a governess.
Poor Harriet!!! She was relegated, as ever. But in this occasion it is much more ostensible, because she was the only person there with Emma and Mr Woodhouse. Do you think that it is normal that Emma, without telling Harriet a word, were so interested in ”diverting her father’s thoughts of the disagreeableness of Mr K’s going to London”? What was the problem? I can’t understand that Mr K’s journey could be a problem to Mr Woodhouse? Have you been realized that Emma only talks to Harriet, her dear friend!!, when they are alone?
Can you imagine Harriet’s thoughts, when she saw Mr K taking Emma’s hand? Don’t you think that what Emma felt as a disappointment because Mr K’s lips didn’t touch her hand, Harriet had to feel it as the proof of her impossible love? And afterward, what do you think of Emma’s lost in thought, without saying a word to Harriet?
I’m sure that Jane Austen, who takes care of the smallest details, has done it deliberately to show, on one hand Emma insensibility, and on the other hand to stress Harriet’s loneliness and to emphasize that she doesn’t have other option that to spend her time observing other’s happiness, unless she should follow the impulse of her heart, if a new real and suitable love calls at her door.
Poor Harriet! Emma made her believe that she had winds to achieve heaven, and now she gets wounded on the ground. At least, she knows now the consequences of mistaking dreams and reality, and that everyone has his/her own ceiling.
Isidro, on this occasion..,
I couldn't agree more with everything you say. It is true that it is dangerous to do what other people tell you and then you are left alone while the others run to happiness..
I think one should beware of dominant people they can cause a lot of damage if you let them very often under the pretence of being kind to you.
I wonder why Mr.K didn't kiss her hand, don't you think that means something?
Thank you Isidro I'm much better though not perfectly well.
In chapter 43 I have found an interesting passage that, perhaps, could shed little light on the mystery of Mss. Fairfax and Mr. Churchill’s relationship. I dare say it is the first time that they speak together in the whole novel. Mr. Churchill is talking about The Elton’s. According to him, Mr. Elton took very short time to know Mss. Hawkins. He should have seen her in her home, in her daily life and it is a matter of luck that their marriage be a success. Surprisingly, Jane Fairfax replies him that an imprudent match may occur sometimes but there is often enough time to overcome the unfortunate acquaintance. And only weak characters will suffer the consequences of the inconvenient attachment forever. Is Mr. Churchill suffering because of a past relationship with Jane? Does he want to harm Mss. Fairfax through his flirtation with Emma? Does Frank love Jane? Does Jane love Frank?...(Marta, I hope you get better soon)
Hi, it is a long time since I have written here, but I am very annoyed with myself because on Monday night when I posted a long text and clicked to send by these rare things of technology it was erased and then I was so anger that I didn’t want to enter and read the blog, but now I have a double work because I have to spend a lot of time to read these interesting commentaries.
Carol, I am sorry, I don’t agree with you respect Jane’s character, which is pusillanimity, I think Jane has to support a big weight, she is poor into a rich society, she has to accept a work as a governess, she has to go away from her aunt’s house and before of that she has to leave from Campbell’s house, and on the other hand she is in love with a silly and spoil boy F.Ch. Who is able to stand this?
I see natural that she becomes ill. This is my point of view.
So, on the other hand I would like to point out the moment that Jane accepts the work, it was when F.C. had gone to Richmond and "after tea that Jane spoke to Mrs. Elton", Mss. Bate says. I think it was a hard decision from Jane.
By the way, and changing of matter, Marta: How are you feeling, I hope your get better. Take care of yourself.
Laura, thank you I'm better.
A very good point, I also think that she is talking to him and that there is or has been something between them is very possible. They have been deceiving everybody if so, but he is worse because he has been flirting with E and critising J
Mercedes, you can't imagine how often that has happened to me!! It is really frustating and annoying!!
Thank you I'm better and hopefully will go to class tomorrow.
I agree with what you say about J she has had a lot to go through these last days. I agree with Mr.K when he says that J is a fine girl and that E would benefit from that friendship. I think she might be hiding something but that is her only blemish while F has many. No wonder she has suffered with all his silly comings and goings
First of all, Marta I wish you to get better as soon as possible.
As I won’t be able to attend next class and then we’ll be on holiday Have a good time, enjoy your holiday, we’ll see after holiday at school again. I’ll read more chapters of Emma and try to write here despite being away.
Clara, remember I wish I were, we'll see you.
Have a nice time and thank you very much, I'm better, today I'll go back to work. Have a nice time in your holiday. Remember the essay you have to do, the writing either in unit 6 or 7 225-250 words.
Mercedes, I agree with you. I think Jane is a nice woman who is suffering a lot, because she is poor and she has to begin a job to live.
On the other hand, you clarified the hard decision taken by Jane. I think she accepted the job when Frank Churchill left suddenly.
I do not know either why Mr K does not kiss Emma’s hand.
Marta I hope to see you tomorrow in a good health.
Carmen, thank you I'll see you tomorrow.
I think Mr,K doesn't kiss her hand because he is angry and because he doesn't trust his feelings
Hi everybody I have been lost all this time because my computer didn´t work that is why I didn´t write here.
First I am happy to know that Marta feel better.
I think that Mr. K. doesn´t kiss Emma´s hand because he doesn´t want to show his feeling.
Rereading Chapter 43 I’m thinking that Mrs. Elton’s old opinion about Frank will have changed after realizing his outrageous and clumsy behavior. Mr. Weston, as a silly an naïve man, notices nothing.
By the way, don’t you think that it seems as if J Austen wouldn’t have very good opinion of men? Mr. K. is the only one that escapes of certain critics of the male genre through all these masculine characters. Some of the women in the novel are also described with many faults but men exceed them.
Marta I hope you get better.
María, I'm sorry about your computer and glad that you are back here I did notice your abscence.
Marta feelS..,
I think you are right he doesn't want to show his feelings and I also think he is angry because her behaviour has been abominable and she has also flirted and laughed at people with Mr.Churchill.
Ana Mª in what way do you think it has changed? Because she has realised that he has treated Jane abominably? Or because of the game? But have you considered that she wouldn't have understood the game?
...escapes certain critics.., male characters..,
I don't think Austen is against men or places them in a negative light. But I am very glad you have raised that topic, please remind me of it and we'll discuss it in the class because it is very interesting.
I think men are treated as women they all appear with faults, the most perfect character, in my opinion is Mr.K so I think that men come out better than women in the novel.
Thank you and María for your kind wishes about my health.
I am deeply impressed by the hypocrisy (or it is maybe immaturity) that Emma shows so openly in chapter 45. She was very ashamed because Mr. Knightley had told her off for being so unfeeling to Mss. Bates. She now wants to be the extremely obliging lady she used to be. And she would want Mr. Knighley to see her good intentions so that she could recover his friendship. For this reason, she tries to put things right by inviting Jane Fairfax to Hartfield. Jane is going to have a new home far away from Highbury; she will never ever be her adversary. Therefore, Mss. Fairfax does not represent any threat and she can fell pity about her health and so on.
Frank's a really scoundrel, I can’t stand him. How can J be in love with this sort of man? If my boyfriend, now my husband, behaved like F, I’m sure I wouldn’t have got married him. And other thing I can’t understand with respect to this is why Mrs Weston defends his behavior as if it were caused of something noble, not something as negative as his selfishness. He only wants to get his aunt’s inheritance.
I’m sorry to have lost the class today, but I had an appointment with my dentist. I would like to know what we have to do for the next day. I have read chapter 45 and 46 but I don’t want to make any comment until everybody should have read them. I just want to say that Frank’s behavior is disappointing, as all of us had said frequently.
I’m going to Roma tomorrow and I won neither read nor write there, but when I should come back I’ll try to make up the time lost. Good holiday to everybody!
Marta, respecting Mrs. Elton’s old opinion I meant what she said his father, Mr. Weston when she met Frank in the ball that took place at Crown. She said about Mr. Frank Churchill: “A very fine man indeed …I think him a very handsome man and his manners precisely what I like and approve …” It was that I was referring in my post. We will continue
Good holidays for everybody! Bye
Clara I disagree with you. I don´t think that Frank was thinking about to get his aunt’s inheritance. I believe that he hid behind Emma because he wants to keep in secret his loves by Jane.
He is waiting for a better opportunity to tell the people the truth though Frank´s behavior is very bad with Jane.
I´m going to Palma and I won´t write until my return. Happy holiday to everybody.
Laura, I see your point but the possibility that E wants to change and be better is there and I think she truly wants to make amends, why is she so interested in winning Mr.K back? I wonder...
Clara, another thing I can`t..., had been motivated by something..,
Of course he does, if not it would be terrible for him! We all need money! His father is not the most intelligent of men even if he is a good man and a well-meaning one too.
I agree with you to a certain extent, he is not too honest and he has behaved abominably to E to Jane, Jane has also done her bit, and to his parents. But... he has some charm and everybody is ready to excuse and forgive him.
This happens very much today too when young people are condemned and forgiven easily for whatever they do.
Youth is a good excuse to forgive folly
Isidro, to have missed you didn`t lose anything.We are very sorry too you didn't come to the most important class in the whole year!!! The Box-Hill episode is very important.
Well then you know a lot..We'll miss you in the blog but Rome is fantastic and the Italian women very beautiful and sexy not like the English.
Have fun and go to see Michelagelo's David, it is in Florence, not round the corner I'm afraid, but if you can it is worth it.
Ana Mª, ..what she said TO his father..,it was that that I meant..
Oh, ok now I understand, thank you.
María, about GETTING..,he wanted to keep his love for J a secret..,
I think the money is at the back of his mind but it is normal, how is he going to live otherwise?
I think he has behaved abominably to everybody specially E, but also his father, his aunt and uncle who have given him everything and whom he is always kind of criticising or suggesting that it is their fault if he can`t come and go. To Jane, etc, he is horrible, but they excuse him. How very lucky
Have a nice holiday. We'll miss you in the blog
Hi mates!Most of you are enjoying your holidays and I´m very happy for you but I´m in Madrid, so I´ll take advantage of studying these days.
I was thinking last weekend about E. and I want to ask you for something. Do you really think she went to Miss Bate´s to apologize? Because I have another impression, I feel she went there to clean her image because having Mr.K seen her unpolite attitude towards Miss B. she was worried about everybody had done it too.
Enjoy these days!
Carol, hi not so bad to stay in Madrid I hear on TV that a lot of people are going to go there so you'll be surrounded by visitors and that always makes Madrid interesting.
..she went to Miss Bates'.., having Mr.K seeing her..,everybody having done it too, as about takes the gerund.
I think you have a point and she wants Mr. K to know that she is sorry and that she has apologized but I also think she is truly sorry for what she has done, a sleepless night spent crying and suffering for what she's done proves my point. Now the important thing is that she doesn't do it again because if not what's the good of it?
I think that our E is good deep down as Miss Taylor has always said, but being so pampered it is difficult for her not to act badly sometimes, don't you think?
At last we find out the nature of the relationship between Miss Fairfax and Mr. Churchill! It was pretty obvious that they had an intense past together. Nevertheless, their secret engagement came as a great sock. Now we are able to understand Miss Fairfax’s strange illness and why she is so cautious. But there is no understanding Mr. Churchill double-dealing and his flirtation with Emma before Jane’s face. For the moment, we cannot answer the following questions: why has Jane accepted being the governess of Mrs. Smallridge’s house? Why have they kept their engagement in secret for so long? Was it an imprudent match and they are repentant? Why did Frank speak ill of Jane`s complexion and so on with Emma? Is he still in love with her and for this reason he tries to harm Jane by flirting with Emma? Is Jane trying to rebuild her life in Smallridge’s house? We’ll see!
Hi everybody in the blog!!! What about your Easter holidays? Mine great. First I went to Amsterdam. I recommend you to go there, you’ll have a good time, I’m sure. Then I went to a village near Santander and I has a good time also, and the weather was good, not a drop, which is amazing, as the weather forecast said the opposite. It doesn’t matter I got wet since suddenly a big wave came towards me when I was looking at the rocks and it was horrible, my trousers, my boots... I laughed at myself, although I was very cold because the water was freezing.
Ana, I agree with you in some of your points, but I sometimes think J is not in love with F, but she has to swallow his bad behaviour because if not she has to choose another worse option, such as work as a governess after having lived like a princess all her life, which I think she decided to do once she got mad, (not as a insane, but as a very angry). Up to now, I can’t stand him.
I had a good time too.
Hi everybody. I have read your last comments and I see that the new events provoke new questions. As Laura says, we’ll see…, but I think that we can imagine the answers of some questions, even at the risk of making mistakes, because Jane Austen is unpredictable.
I think that Jane has accepted being the governess of Mrs S’s house because she couldn’t bear more time the flirtation of Frank and Emma. It seems to be that they agreed at first to conceal their relationship, and even it is possible that they should have enjoyed in their alone encounters talking about Emma’s blindness. But I imagine that, Frank and Jane have been several arguments because of Frank’s behavior with Emma: For example, after Frank’s exhibition with Emma at Crown’s ball, after the joke of Frank and Emma in the game of cards. And at the end, Jane had got very angry with Frank’s flirtation with Emma in Box Hill because their relationship seemed as intense as at the beginning.
Do you imagine Jane’s thoughts in Box Hill while occurred what it described in these words?
“Every distinguishing attention that could be paid, was paid to her. To amuse her, and be agreeable in her eyes, seemed all he cared for - and Emma, glad to be enlivened, not sorry to be flattered, was gay and easy too, and gave him all the friendly encouragement, the admission to be gallant, which she had ever given in the first and most animated period of their acquaintance”
Laura, I think that Frank spoke ill of Jane’s complexion and he encouraged Emma imagination about her suspicion in relation with the suspect relationship between Mr Dixon and Jane, and so on, because he thought that it was the better way of hide his relationship with Jane. The problem is that he goes too far and he misleads everybody, Jane included.
His behavior has been so crazy that he has annoyed Jane and put Emma, Mr and Mrs Weston, in bad standing. Moreover, the rest of his friends we’ll think that he is a fool and trifle fellow as Mr K. thought since the beginning.
Emma’s most important problem is that she doesn’t realize when she acts wrong. In the case of her behavior in Box Hill with Mss Bates, I think, like Marta, that she really regrets her behavior. But I also think that Carol is right when she says that Emma is very interested in remove of the friends’ minds the effect of her inconsiderate way of talking with Mss Bates.
These words in chapter 44 show us that Emma is very interested in what I say: “The wretchedness of scheme to Box Hill was in Emma’s thoughts all the evening. How it might be considered by the rest of the party, she could not tell………(………)……As a daughter, she hoped she was not without a heart. She hoped no one could have said to her, ‘How could you be so unfeeling to your father?” So she is very interested in giving a good image of herself.
In my opinion, another Emma’s important problem is that she is a very classist person. She underestimate Mr Martin, the Coles, Mrs Elton, Mss Bates,…
Emma thinks that “she had been often remiss, her conscience told her so; remiss, perhaps, more in thought than fact; scornful, ungracious.” (Chapter 44)
She thinks she is over everybody. So she believes that she only need to “call upon her the very next morning, and it should be the beginning, or her side, of a regular, equal, kindly intercourse.”
But did she really apologize? Did she pronounce a single word to ask Mss Bates forgiveness for her behaviour?
The answer is not. She thinks that her only presence is enough to make happy the others. That is why I don’t believe Emma when she says that her visit should be “the beginning of a regular, equal, kindly intercourse”
Chapter 46
This chapter is the most exciting. I could not stop to read till the end.
The engagement between Frank and Jane was a surprise for me because Frank’s behaviour was very absurd and immodest.
Jane is very patient, sensitive person.
Laura a very good comment and you are absolutely right how could he?? No wonder she is ill and suffering, imagine with that secret and that deceit that is nerve wrecking! And I find there is no excuse for his behaviour, much worse than hers...
Clara, as working as..., I agree with you about Frank. Jane must have suffered a lot and also having to start to work, but the lie was wrong.
Yes the weather was nice in Santander at least it didn't rain, which is a miracle!!
Isidro, Emma's imagination..,
It is exactly as you say, Frank has behaved abominably to all those people.
..in removing out of her.., another of E's...., she understimateD.., she is above everybody..., she only needS.., the answer is NO.., to make the others happy..., the adv at the end.
I see your point but I do think that E is sincere in her repentance and worried that anybody could think she was unkind to Mrs.Bates just like she would be horrified if she were unkind to her father. Of course she is a snob, but she has an excuse for that. Everybody looks up to her so she believes she is important as everybody else. Let's face it, the rich are not like the majority of us, it is sometimes difficult for them to see themselves as normal,to feel like the rest of the people, when they are not the same. They can do things that the rest of us cannot, they have more things, they are more selfconfident as money gives you that, and they are not worried about things that worry other people.
E is good deep down as Mrs. Weston tells Mr.K in the first chapters but she can't help herself sometimes, that of course is something she has to control, I think she is trying to do it.
Hi mates! I would like to say somethings about Frank Ch. What happens with this boy? It´s very difficult to me to understand him. After seeing a part of the serie yesterday I realized how much he had been suffering since he was a child but it´s not an excuse for his behaviour. He was playing with Jane. She was picked on the novel because of him. I feel pity for her but on the other side, I don´t approve her behaviour either. I agree about keeping this kind of secret can devour her inner but she chooses too, although it is very hard in her position.
I would like to recommend you a play of theatre strongly. It´s called "Por el placer de volver a verla" The actors, Miguel Ángel Solá and his wife Blanca Oteyza are marvellous and it´s a beautiful tribute to our mothers. It´s in Amaya theatre until 2nd of May.
I think that sometines we are very severe on someone's behavour and little on others'. I mean that we have crirized E. strongly, in fact, she has given us a lot of reasons to do that. But what about J? She had a secret engagement with F., that obviously E. didn't know it, and because of F's fautls, J. maybe thinking that he had betrayed her and he really wanted E. to marry him, she refused E. openly, when she is also a victim of F.'s wrong doings.
Well, I really don't want to critize J. but point out that all these "misunderstndings" have been caused by F. and that he is going to be excused and forgiven by J. and everyone.
Thanks carol for your recommendation, I’ll try and go.
Maria, don’t you think that it’s easier to forgive J than F? They both are in a different position in society, which gives them a completely different way of behaviour. As Marta says, the rich can afford some licences that the others can’t. So she can’t say aloud she’s engaged with F as I think she’d love to do.
As yesterday I couldn’t attend class because I had a sore throat, I watched a part of the film here, at home, as you did there, did you understand it well? I think it’s a bit easier to understand it now because we know the plot thanks to our reading of the novel.
Thanks carol for your recommendation, I’ll try and go.
Maria, don’t you think that it’s easier to forgive J than F? They both are in a different position in society, which gives them a completely different way of behaviour. As Marta says, the rich can afford some licences that the others can’t. So she can’t say aloud she’s engaged with F as I think she’d love to do.
As yesterday I couldn’t attend class because I had a sore throat, I watched a part of the film here, at home, as you did there, did you understand it well? I think it’s a bit easier to understand it now because we know the plot thanks to our reading of the novel.
Hi bloggers,
Here, we are again, I hope you enjoyed your holydays on Easter, I think they were short because the time flies, but we are going to take advantage of our blog to learn a little bit of English.
Carol, the play that you tell us is it the same which title was “El diario de Adan y Eva”?, it was a superb play and the actors, Miguel Ángel Solá and his wife Blanca Oteyza were actually nice, I always remember that play like the most marvellous I have seen a long time ago.
With regard to film “Emma” that we saw yesterday, I would like to say it was a free version of book, it didn’t follow the book, it was fine to listen to English but I would prefer that the film was the most approximate to the novel as possible.On the other side I don’t imagine Emma like she is appearing on it, in this film E. is a happy girl , I think she is more cautious and prudent in the novel.
In my opinion, F. C. is a spoilt, selfish boy who plays with the feeling of everybody because he is allowed, so Mr. K. is ungry with him.
Hi mates! According to Clara, I agree with her because now, we know the plot and the characters so the film is easier to understand than the novel. But, although I didn´t like the film a lot, I found it more amusing than the book because sometimes looking up words, reading again and again, what does the author want to tell us, besides in English... it needs a big effort and it´s a bit hard sometimes.
The actors (in my reccomendation) are the sames but the play is different. I´m sure you´ll enjoy it a lot and you´ll be excited a lot. (I cried a lot!!!)
Hi mates! According to Clara, I agree with her because now, we know the plot and the characters so the film is easier to understand than the novel. But, although I didn´t like the film a lot, I found it more amusing than the book because sometimes looking up words, reading again and again, what does the author want to tell us, besides in English... it needs a big effort and it´s a bit hard sometimes.
The actors (in my reccomendation) are the sames but the play is different. I´m sure you´ll enjoy it a lot and you´ll be excited a lot. (I cried a lot!!!)
Carol, on the other hand..,approve of..,
I think Frank has suffered but not so much, he has led the life of a millionaire which is what his aunt and uncle are and that is usually is not associated with suffering. At the beginning yes but then it all his doing I agree with Mr.K I dislike him he is a foolish man. However he has charm. Jane has also been wrong in deceiving everyone but I think there is more of an excuse for her, she has more sense and she has less money, and she hasn't flirted with anybody...
María you are very right, however Jane lied and was deceitful and that was wrong we can't aquit her completely.
Thank you for telling us about the play, Carol, but I thought it was the same as the one Mercedes says, it was really good, but we haven't organised it for that reason.
Mercedes I agree with everything you say. Frank is spoilt and used to getting his way. I didn't like the film either. They don't speak like in the novel. I think that is important because if not we don't get the same feeling and we don't recognise the words. I agree with you about E too, she is too boistrous.
Carol, I agree with Clara's opinion..,what the author wants to tell us..., it is not a direct question so you don't need the auxiliary.
..the actors are the same. Adj in singular, careful.
..you'll be very excited, adv at the end.
Don't tell me you have watched the film!!!!!!!!!! It was forbidden I said we would do it in the class!
I'm sure we will enjoy it but it is a pity it is not perfect. I don't like it so far!!!
Chapter 46
I think that Jane is en love with Frank but she can stand Frank to flirt or to play with Emma.
She told him about the possibility of breaking an engagement and now she does it accepting the job as a governess.
Frank’s behaviour was inconsiderate and unfeeling with her.
It is possible that Frank is immature and was dominated by his aunt, but it is not reason for so indelicate a behaviour.
He is lucky because his aunt dies and he is free and I suppose that he begs sorry and he is forgiven.
Carmen, I think you mean she can't stand Frank's flirting and playing with E. .., it is not an excuse for.., he has begged to be forgiven..,
I agree with you I think that is exactly what happened. Frank has been lying and one supposes that it is not the first time he has done it. He has probably developed this method to get what he wants with his aunt, it is a method that often works: you lie to the person in power of course you are very nice and have charm= you get what you want. That doesn't mean he is necesarily bad, it means he is young and inmature.He will probably improve with Jane as she is not at all like that
Hi mates!I tried to defense F. in class yesterday but I saw it was impossible. Nobody can justify him.
And about the film, I would like to talk about the part which we had seen in class on Tuesday. I´ve not seen anymore. Sorry for the misunderstanding!
It's said that it's impossible to make a film with the identical sense of the book is based on. You know what they say if you’ve read a book don’t see the film. But despite not being exactly identical each other it’s not a bad film, we can watch it in order to enjoy the story, but I agree with you, it’s better to read the book.
Carol, you’re right, nobody agreed with you when defending F. Up to now we all think he’s a bad person. What I can’t understand apart from J’s reaction is how has he got get on well with everybody in the village and after this everybody continues feeling the same. There’s a Spanish saying which say ‘some were born as stars and others smashed’. This could be his case; he obviously would be the star.
I have been a few days away from this block because after my holiday I have been preparing a summary about chapters 45 and 46 in order to discuss them in class so I could not write here but I've been reading all your comments on my breaks . I felt totally involved in doing the work. But now I'm here again and I would like to say that I could not imagine Emma’s reaction with Frank's misbehavior. If I were her, I would have needed much more time to be able to say ... I wish the best to them, or congratulations. I guess my reaction would have been very different. I think it is necessary to be very a good person to have this behaviour with someone who has hurt you deeply. I think Emma is a better person than what she appears to be.
I believe that Frank is not a bad person he has been doing this things without thinking about the damage it could do to other people, perhaps because he is very young. I think that Frank kept in secret his relationship with Jane for fear that Mrs. Churchill is not allowed to marry her and for that reason he also flirted with Emma.
The knowledge of Frank and Jane’s secret engagement has surprised me, not because I didn’t suspect that there was a relationship between them, but because the way and the nature of their engagement. Since October!!! Poor Emma, thank goodness that she didn’t get in love with him. What a surprise to her!! She couldn’t believe what she heard!!
And poor Mr Weston! What a Shame to him!!! Did you imagine his thought while Mrs Weston was talking to Emma and he was looking at them trying to guess Emma’s reaction?
But in this comment I’m going to center my analysis in Jane. First of all, I would say that, in my view, her behaviour is very acceptable and understandable, if we take into account the time she lives.
I think that she was really in love with Frank. So it was normal that she should want to stay near him though she should have to renounce Mr Campbell’s invitation. And, even it is understandable that she should accept to suffer Frank’s foolishness. Jane’s situation was very complicated, as well, because of the mentality of her time which forced her to take care about her public behavior. Therefore I believe that she has been very cautious and intelligent.
Only after Frank’s quick trip, without saying goodbye to Jane, did she take the decision of accepting the offer of going to Mrs Smallridge’s house. We must recollect that Jane got very angry in Box Hill. There, Frank had been very kind and caring to Emma and had talked of a travel. Late, when she was in Mrs Elton’s House, she found out that Frank had decided to leave Highbury immediately, although Mr Churchill’s deadline was next morning.
Otherwise, in the case Jane should have chiefly been interested in Frank’s money and status, I would also justify her conduct, because she haven’t done anything wrong. And for a woman it was normal to try to guarantee her future.
I think that she is a very handsome woman, and that Frank is really in love with her, therefore he has done so much nonsense. Jane attracts Frank so much than he got ecstatic in the Crown’s ball looking at her, and he had to conceal in front of Emma saying that he was looking at Jane’s bizarre hairstyle. Frank misled Emma but not Mr Knightley when he saw a similar look.
So, she is handsome, clever, but not rich. She has a good upbringing, she has demonstrates that she knows how to treat Frank and she has self-control, although she has lost her control at the end.
And she plays the piano better than Emma!!!
Do you imagine why Emma always hasn’t got on with Jane.
I said in class last day that Emma was a bad person. When I said it, I didn’t want to say that she was bad in a high level. I only wanted to say that she was badly in the sense of “without a heart”, in this text of chapter 44, the day after the party in Box Hill:
Emma, “as a daughter, hoped she was not without a heart. She hoped no one could have said to her: ‘How could you be so unfeeling to your father?”
I agree with her in which she is very attentive with her father. Even, I believe that when she has said sometimes that she wouldn’t marry I think that she thought that she couldn’t leave her father, because she knew how much her father had suffered with Isabella and Mss Taylor’s marriage. But Emma has been badly at some point with several people: Harriet, Jane, Cole’s family,…
I am going to put some example of Emma’s evilness to Harriet. But first of all, I want you to recollect that Ms Taylor’s marriage left Mr Woodhouse and Emma full of sorrow and grief. And “it was on the wedding-day of this beloved friend that Emma first sat in mournful thought of any continuance. The wedding over and the brie-people gone, her father and herself were left to dine together, with no prospect of a third to cheer a long evening”(chapter 1, second page)
The follow day we find Emma with her mournful thought and we can read: “The want of Miss Taylor would be felt every hour of every day.” Chapter 1)
Several days after, Emma realized that she had achieve contrive thing so well as for her father should be confortable, but “as far as she was herself concerned, it was no remedy for the absence of Mrs Weston….(…)….but the quiet prosing of three such women made her feel that every evening so spent, was indeed one of the long evening she had fearfully anticipated” (chapter 3)
So, she decided to write a note to Mrs Goddard asking her to bring Mss Smith with her. And very soon Emma realized that Harriet was “exactly the young friend she wanted- exactly the something which her home required” (chapter4)
I’m sorry, I wanted to show in what sense I think that Emma has been badly with Harriet, but I have lost enough time in recollecting the beginning of their relationship, because it will allow us to judge Emma’s behavior in connection with Harriet.
So I repeat I’m sorry, because I have to leave without showing the evilness of Emma with Harriet, as was my intention. I promise you to put several examples in my next comment. But I would like that someone should put some.
Carol, I'm glad, sorry I thought you might have.
It is true that it is difficult to excuse Frank but there is always something: youth is his alibi.
Clara, exactly identical to..,
I agree with you about books and films but for eg. the version of Pride and Prejudice done by the BBC is really good, this is not.
I think Frank has charm and that is why everybody excuses him, he is also rich and handsome which helps too, also we often forgive the follies of youth, don't you think?
María, you are right E is, as Mrs.Weston said, a good girl and she shows it in this situation. It helps too that she does no longer feel anything for Frank, but she should have been more resentful after that blow, as blow it was!!
María 2, these things.., would not have allowed him to marry her..,
Yes, for sure and of course E was the means he found not to attract attention to his comings and goings to the Bates'. Let's see what Jane says about that behaviour of his..
Isidro, in case..she haSn't done anything...,
I think you are right and there are many excuses for Jane's behaviour specially that she is in love and one can act foolishly. She is wrong in getting engaged like that but as you say she acts well in everything. I'm sure he will improve with her. And I think that she will suffer with him.
Isidro, that she was very bad..,E has been wrong..,the following day.., she had achieved.., I would like someone to write..,
Yes I agree with you E is nasty, without really being aware of it, to H as she uses her as a toy, but she also helps her in that her notice means something, even Mr.K admits she is better than he thought when you talk to her. E should not have meddled with Mr.Martin's proposal but... who wouldn't have wanted a friend in E's situation? We all have an interest when we pick up a friend or a boyfriend or girlfriend, don't you think? Perhaps at 20 one is not aware of this but when one is a little older one realises that deep down there is always a certain degree of interest, call it what you will that attracts us to a certain person.
chapter 47
I think that this chapter is the climax in the novel and after that, we can expect the resolution.
Once again, Emma is feeling badly. But the most important thing is that Emma begins to understand her own heart. She recognises her being in love with Mr K.
Time before, she had been ignorant of her heart.
The novel tells us Emma’s mind evolution to get mature. Now, at last, Emma is dismayed and repented because she has done grief to Harriet, to Mr K and to herself.
She recognises her vanity and her arrogance, she realises how her heart is she suffers a lot.
I had written a long comment giving different reasons to show what I could name Emma’s insensitivity, bad heart, coldness or disregard, giving some examples when my computer got blocked and I lost my document.
Now I am going to show only one example in which I would like you to see the different treatment given to Frank and Emma. In a next comment I’ll try to defend Frank because in my opinion we have been very hard with him.
In Box Hill’s party Frank and Emma were flirting and everybody has considered that Frank’s behaviour was unacceptable. I agree, but in my opinion, Emma’s behaviour was the worst.
Both were flirting. And it took attention of all the audience but they didn’t judge ill their behaviour. However all of us have judged very hard Frank’s behaviour. I remember some adjectives we have used: immodest, outrageous, immoral, scoundrel…, but why we didn’t judge ill Emma’s behaviour if they have been doing apparently the same thing?
In my opinion, the reason of this different treatment is that when Frank is acting we are thinking in Jane’s suffering. But what do you think that Mr Knightley had thought if he should have believed that Harriet was in love with Frank? I am sure that he would have reproached Emma’s behaviour.
In my view, it doesn’t matter if Harriet is really in love with Frank or not. The most important thing in order to judge Emma’s behaviour is that she was flirting with Frank believing that Harriet was in love with Frank, and this is despicable.
I am very sad only thinking in what Emma is suffering when she is listening what Harriet is talking about Mr. K. . I think she has discovered feeling that It is new to her and unknown.
If Emma were in love with Frank I would consider acceptable that she should intende to attract him, even if Harriet were also in love to him. But the problem is that Emma has decided long ago to cool her feeling with regard to Frank, so she was only playing because she enjoyed a lot being the center of the party. If she had said to Mr K that Harriet was in love with Frank, he would consider her behaviour very ill.
In my opinion, we are prone to judge Emma well, because we give more importance to the appearance than to the reality. And I would say more; I think that sometimes it is very difficult to us see the reality because Jane Austin play with us putting several false tracks mixed with the reality, and we sometimes take as reality the appearance.
But J. Austen never deceives us. We are who make mistakes, because we give much importance to simple insinuations. For example, sometimes J.A. presents us the bare reality without highlighting it, and at the same time she introduce Emma’s opinion and she amuses herself giving us all kind of details about Emma’s imagination. The result is that we fall into the trap.
As well, I would like to say that at the moment of judge it is necessary that we should be able to get free of the sentimentality. And in the case of Emma we are very easy influenced by Emma’s tears.
If Emma should have been in love with Frank
she should have been intenteded to atract him, even being Harriet in love to him
Emma had decided long ago.....
He would have considered her behaviour....
Isidro, you are making a great and conscientious study about Emma’s novel, I admire you for using your time to explain us so different points of view, but I would like to fix some ideas about your points:
First, in your blog on 9th , you are right, J.F. has show us that she is more clever than E. who is in frequent blunder, Emma is never knowing what is happing around her.
Secondly: I agree with you that in Box Hill’s party Frank and Emma were flirting, and although I can see your point I think Emma’s behaviour in anyway I can considerer it worst than F.C., I believe you have to bear in mind the time and the society and a man have to be a man, he ought to be a gentleman, F.C. must not flirt with a lady when he is engagement with another, on the contrary Emma is free, she is not engagement
Third, you are right about the manners J.A. catch at our attention into her plot , but I consider that she uses to Emma’s thoughts by trapping to us.
Mercedes, thank you for your kind words. I also appreciate very much your comments.
I agree with you in which a man shouldn’t flirt with a lady when he is engaged with another. But I also think that neither should a lady with a man in front of her better friend, knowing that she is in love with him. So, both of them behaves ill.
In the case of Frank, Jane has accepted conceal their relationship and the flirtation of Frank with Emma is a part of the game. The problem is that Frank, like Emma, likes be always the best protagonist and sometimes he get out of hand.
In the case of Emma, she thinks that Harriet is in love with Frank and she has promised her to be neutral.
Do you really think that Emma acts well, flirting with Frank in front of Harriet. Would you do this whit your better friend?
In order to show the difference between both, I have to suppose a conversation between Frank and Jane in one of their encounter.
-Frank: My dear Jane! (looking at her with loving eyes). Did you see Emma’s ridiculous last party? She thinks that she is intelligent and she doesn’t understand anything.
At the beginning Jane would say:
-Jane: Oh my love! I begin to be a little tired of this game.
The answer of Jane in their encounter after the game of cards would be:
-Jane: I am fed up with your games. You have to put an end to this situation.
In my opinion, the loyalty is a value in itself regardless of the time. And Emma is not totally, free she must respect the others.
......Emma is not totally free, she must respect...
You could be right in what you say related to friends, boyfriends and so on, but the main interest in having friends should be to enjoy their company, to know they are near you, not only physically but also in feeling. Having friends for other interests is not a good thing, they wouldn’t become really your friends, and they’d behave the same as you. So there are many people we could consider our friends that aren’t, they’re friends for drinks, a walk, chat… each one have a role in our lives.
each one has a role in our lives
each one has a role in our lives
Hi mates! I would like to tell something about J and it´ll be controversial. I agree with all of you about she was in love with F. and she accepted the job because she wanted to be far from him and break the relationship. But do you think someone can be in love with another one who is treating her so bad during a lot of time? Love makes us blind but in my opinion J. is hidding something, and at the end she accepted to marry F. because it´s the only way to space from her future like a governess, and after so much suffering she isn´t in love with him.
Now, I would like to speak about E. because she´s waking up a lot of tenderness. Don´t you agree with me that seeing her procress to be more matture is exciting?
Carol I disagree with you. I think it is perfectly right to be in love with someone who treats you badly because love is cruel.
The more you love the more you suffer.
Jane has taken the job as a governess to give F.Ch. an "ultimatum" and to force him to take a decision about their situation.
I don´t think she is hidding something. She really loves F.Ch. and because she is suffering a lot with his behaviour, that´s why she has decided to go far away , not with the intention of breaking the relationship but with the intention of forcing him to take a decision in the matter.
The "play" has been perfect because he has reacted and finally he has announced the engagement.
Yes I think so. I love the way she is feeling at that time. It is pleasant to feel what you are feeling at this time. I think maybe it was the best part of love when it starts up and they are confused because none of them knows what will happen. They discover that something new is happening, do not sleep, they are unable to think clearly and everything is changing in your life. That is, is the best feeling in life when someone starts to be in love with.
I wanted to say that I agree with Carol in every thing and my comentary go in that direction; how it could not be in other way.
I have just realised that what Carol said is that Emma is getting mature and I thought that she was talking about to be in love
Perhaps it was because I was thinking about love. Sometimes you understood what do you wanted and not what really it is. I´m sorry. I was wrong. Now I have to leave but I will answer later.
Carmen, I totally agree with you about E now she is maturing at last and she begins to see things clearly.
Isidro, I agree completely with you, we can acquit E in flirtng with Frank because she didn't know that he was engaged to J. But she thought that H liked him and yet she flirted with him. She wants to be the star and stars always shine.
Frank's behaviour is worse, I think, as he knows for sure that he is engaged and E only thinks that H likes him.
María, thinking of.., I'm not at all sorry for E's suffering, she deserves it I'm very glad a bit of her own back!!
Isidro, it is very difficult for us to see.., Austen playS.., she introduceS.., of judging..,
I agree with you, but I think Austen is clear we maybe don't see it because one has to read carefully. She said she was going to write about a heroine whom nobody would like but herself. I don't like her and I think the majority of us don't, yet she is not altogether bad and in chapter 47she begins to grow up as a person.
Isidro, H even being in love.., subject first ok?
Mercedes, a man had to be.., when he is engaged.., we want a verb not a noun: engagement ok?
I think you have a point, F behaved worse than E, she is a fool but he knew he was engaged to another and he was making her suffer and E too had she been in love with him.
..she uses E's thoughts to trap us.., I think you mean
Isidro, both of them behave ill.., J has accepted TO conceal.., F..likes being.., he gets out of hand..,
Well well you are beginning to write yourself well done!! I agree that F wants to be the centre too, he has somethings in common with E.
I think that E is learning at last after so many blows, the blow of F's engagement is great, consider how she must have felt! Before the community too and Mrs.W who confeses openly that that was their wish! To think that you are everybody's favourite and there comes the plum, Frank, and he chooses your rival and has been laughing at you in your face for months!
Clara, you are right, H is one of those, E doesn't really have a friend, only Mrs.Weston.
Carol, about she BEING in love, gerund after prep..,
I agree with you about E she has managed to be better at least to try to, through her suffering. Not so much about J, I think she is really in love with F. Of course he means that she is save, save from having to leave family and friends, save from having to work, etc. But come on who would not like a handsome charming very very rich man? She must be in love, he is not only that, he is also the Prince who brings her back to her old life, the one who rescues her! One kiss and your life changes from a nightmare to perfection.
Reyes, I agree with you, she didn't want to suffer and she decided to say yes to the post. I don't think J's life with him is going to be so easy after all, his tendency to lie and to be deceitful will probably appear in the future don't you think? But at least she'll have a home, money, children and security.
I wouldn't trust him.
María, talking about being..,
I think difficulties often increase the intensity of love, as Reyes and you both say, but really my experience in life is that a Mr.K is ten times better for a husband than a Frank Churchill!
Emm's opinion and imaginatión contaminate the reality so much that sometimes we don't realize that we take her point of view as the objectivity. One of the things that more surprise me is the hypocrisy that finally seems to imposse everywhere.
When Emma knew Frank and Emma's secret engagement, she was very atonished and she realized that her behaviour had been unacceptable. And at first she was so shocked that she didn't know how to act neither what to say. But immediately, she adopted the position more intelligent in order to minimize the importance of her participation in this affair and to preserve her relationship with Mrs and Mr Weston.
It is normal that Mr and Mrs Weston should think that Emma is a very good person because they were very worried about her reaction. They expected the worst because they thought that she was in love with Frank. But we (the readers), who have all the information, can't be misled. So, she act according to her interest.
What other think could do Emma? Should she appear angry showing everyone that she had been cheated?
I would like to emphasize her position with regard to Harriet situation. She is so naive that she regrette that Mr Campbell shoudn't have had into account Harriet's interest. This idea is so crazy that it can only be due to her disconcert.
Emma have acted very badly in relation with Harriet. In reality, never did Emma act in favour to Harriet, but in her own interest.
Emma can mislead the others but she can't deceive herself. She knows that she haven't a good heart and the only hope she can expect is that noboy should be able to accuse her of lack of affection with her father.
Emma is chainging, she is maturing, she is knowing herself better, she has mistaken a lot but she has repented a lot.
But wy don't you recognize that she has been ill, althouht you should forgive her without penance. I think that, as Marta says, one kiss of Mr K in her life would change her from a nightmare to perfection.
She has acted according to ....
Harriet's situation....
Emma is changing
I have decided to write a little while the time of the class, because I have a fever and I stay at home.
Reyes I totally agree with you with regard to your opinion about Jane. She has suffered, but she has reached her target.
I think that Frank has acted ill, but we must recall that Jane has accepted to conceil her engagement and she knew that this plan had a risk.
As well we know that Frank almost confessed the truth to Emma the first time he said goodby to her. He was nervous and Emma thought he was going to declare his love. When he returned, both (Frank and Emma) shoved to each other one certain coldness.
So, I think that it is necessary to put Frank's behaviour in his just point, because he is not cheating Jane. Perhaps he is acting ill in relation with Emma, although I don't think so because both have given enough indication of their real feeling.
At the end Jane has done what she had to do. I am sure that she had asked Frank to finish playing with Emma and after Box Hill's party Jane couldn't bear that he should go away without saying goodby.
In conclusion, I think that Jane has suffered, I also thinK that Frank's behaviour has been unacceptable, but I have decided to defend him a little, because I consider that everybody has been very benevolent with Emma and very hard with Frank.
In Box hill Frank is flirting with Emma but Jane knows that this is only a game, because she has talked frequently with Frank. And I think that if Frank had said goodby to Jane she would forgive him. But Emma's behavior with regard to Harriet in the same party is worst than Frnk's in ralation with Jane. I think that we can't make a different treatment because one case should be real and the other should be only imagination, because the really important thing is what the person think when he or she acts.
Harriet is a fortunate person because she is not in love with Frank, but if she had been in love with him, we know very well that she would have suffered a lot, because Emma wouldn't warned her that she was going to pull Frank's leg.
María, I disagree with you. I am very sad thinking in what Harriet is going to suffer.
If Frank should have said goodbye....
if she should have been in love with him, we know....
In chapter 47, Emma thinks that Frank has behaved very ill with her, but she believes that the worst of all is that he should have impelled her to hurt Harriet.
Never can I imagine more impudence that Emma’s. She remembers now that Mr K. once said her that she had been no friend of Harriet.
Emma doesn’t recognize her own fault with regard to his behavior to Harriet which consist in to have acting without taking into account Harriet feeling. It is not acceptable that she should intend to transfer her responsibility to Frank.
Emma pretends to minimize her fault changing the real fault to one less gross. Therefore she blames herself of not having prevented her about the risk of loving Frank.
It is normal that Emma should try to minimize her blunder because from the point of view psychological must be very difficult to her to accept that Frank has pulled her leg and at the same time she has ignored Harriet’s feelings.
Emma can deceive herself, but she can’t mislead me once more.
I'm sorry,
...in having acted without taking into account....
at the same time that she....
Hi mates! Isidro, I agree with you about E´s behaviour towards H. She has played with her like a doll without worrying about her feelings and she has shown us she has been very selfish. She has flirted with F. opposite H´s eyes and E was thinking of herself when H. was in love with Martin. Maybe, she can´t realize her mistakes because who can do it? It´s very difficult, more when nobody makes question about your behaviour because here, everybody, less Mr.K, acceptes her decisions.
Much as I dislike Harriet I have to admit she was very clever choosing his love because she has chosen the best character of this book. I wish I were her. It would make me feel very happy because I love that kind of man as Mr. K. is. He seems to be a very sure man of himself who has the right word for each person.
I disagree with all of you I think that Emma has tried always to help Harriet without to look something good for herself. Another thing could be that she will get it or no. But to Harriet always she has given the best of herself.
María you're very kind, so you see the bright side of life, that's why you believe E has done her best with H, but I can't get rid of the idea of E playing with H and Mr E's lives.
We're in the most exciting chapters of the book, aren't we? Now E has realized she's in love with Mr K. What a problem!!! E needs to send H away from her and Mr K. She's better do it, otherwise H might steal E Mr K.
Now E is regreting having met H,. Don't you think she's a bit selfish? I have to recognize she has been like this the whole novel.
Chapter 48
Emma is again in a plight. She is suffering a lot because she wants to be first with Mr K, even she wishes him never to marry.
Emma’s solution surprises me. She is maturing and she wants to be better. She resolves to become more rational and to know herself better in order not to repent of her behaviour in the future.
Let me now analyze the following extracts:
1) “-and the moment she (Harriet) was gone, this was the spontaneous burst of Emma’s feeling: ‘Oh God! that I had never seen her!’”
2) “Oh! Had she never brought Harriet forward!”
3) “It must be her ardent wish that Harriet might be disappointed”
4) “had she endeavoured to find a friend there (referring to Jane Fairfax) instead of Harriet Smith”
Emma is definitely a very bad person! What could these extracts mean otherwise? These words demonstrate that Emma does not feel a real friendship towards Harriet. She chose her as a pastime because she thought she could dominate her. Miss Smith is very inferior both in mind and social position and, according to Emma’s thoughts, she never would represent any threat to her. However, now Emma realizes the consequences of her playing with Harriet: she can lose Mr. Knighley!
On the other hand, she also realizes that she is not the centre of everybody’s life as she used to be: Mr. Frank Churchill loves Miss Fairfax instead of her, Mrs. Weston is going to have a baby that will attract all her attentions and, at last, it is far from impossible that Mr. Knighley feels deep affections for Miss Smith. She seems to be in nobody’s plans. From my point of view, she deserves it.
Isidro, one of the things that surprises me more is..., how to act or.., she acted..,she regrets..,
I don't see what Mr. Campbell has to do with H. You have to be careful with the names it is confusing!
You must be careful with the S. It is important to write well, I think you get a little carried away...
I don't think E is as bad as you picture her!
Isidro, I have a temperature, I'm sorry get well soon. ..in its place..,
I disagree with you to a certain extent, as I consider that all his flirting with E was unnecessary really, he could have used a different tactic, but that was an easy nice one for him, as by using it he would have two women interested. He has behaved abominably, men always excuse each other! It is not fair you condemn E and excuse him, fantastic!
I disagree Jane need not necessarily know that it was a game, who would like to see her future husband flirting with another woman? That takes anybody's confidence away. And also it was so obvious that even his parents thought he was after E!...what the person thinkSSSSSSSSS, careful!!! ..E wouldn't HAVE warned her... inf without to after modal verb, the rest I can't understand
I agree that E's behaviour to H has been terrible but I don't think she acted deceitfully whereas Frank did. For me she has an excuse, although I think it was very bad and I always say beware of domineering people they can ruin your life!
Isidro, more impudence than E's..,
I think it is not impudence but ill-judging.
E is a woman so consequently her ill...which consistS on having... careful you MUST correct those mistakes. You did it in the next few sentences using the gerund beautifully
..from a psychological point of view..,
Yes it is true that E thinks often how she likes, but that is no excuse for Frank's behaviour. They are both wrong.
Carol, everybody excepting Mr.K..,
I think we all agree that E has behaved abominably but isn't H a little too stupid also to herself be guided always by E's judgement? Is she in love with all these men???
At not time has Emma been so aware of her errors as now. It is not the first time that she has expressed regretful for her actions, but now she is able to see it in the right direction and without the direct help of Mr. K. Perhaps it has been necessary that she would have to feel the consequences on herself.
We are in the point that was announced in the beginning of the novel, that is, Emma's sorrow provoked by her real evils (high esteem on herself, both her actions and judgements), however , the ending is not still clear and we have to read a little more to know what it is going to happen. Will E be single?
María, her love.., without looking..,
I agree with you about Mr.K but I can't agree about E. She has acted badly with H in my opinion, if it hadn't been for E, H would now be happy with Mr.M and Mr.M with her, everything was ruined by E's interference in spite of Mr.K's telling her that she was wrong and everybody even her father, he has more sense than her!
Clara, who is Mr.E? Do you mean Mr.Martin? She'd better do it.
I think you are right, María is too kind, E has behaved abominably and it is in these chapters that she herself finally realises how wrong it was.
Carmen, I agree E finally wants to be good as we commented in class the end of chapter 48 is the climax of that change I think.
Laura, a perfect comment and the quotes are fantastic, I always like it when you quote!
I agree with everything you say and you also prove your point, but I do think that E is trying to get better that she is really sorry for what she has done. Like everyone who repents she deserves another opportunity, don't you think?
Marìa, at no time.., she has expressed regret..,
A very good point, and you bring it back to the beginning is perfect, yes E had had very little in life to vex her but now... well everything is going wrong for her, her prospects are horrible.
The first thing I would like to say is that nobody is good or bad for ever. As well, we see that there is an evolution of the characters in the novel.
Other important thing is that we would definite the concept about we speak. Because it is possible that, like it occurred to the likeness of Harriet, when we use the expression “bad”, everyone should be thinking in a different thing. So I will clarify the sense in which I use this concept.
When I qualify somebody as a good person, it is because he or she acts taking into account the others. So, in my opinion, a person is good if she or he try to avoid that her or his behavior should damage the others. Examples of this kind of people are Mr Knightley, Mr Woodhouse or Mss Bates. I say, for example, that Miss Bates is a good person because I don’t imagine she be able to act badly.
Otherwise, I recognize that it sounds horrible to qualify somebody as a bad person. According to what I have said at first, there aren’t bad people. And it would be more correct to say that a person has acted wrong in one particular situation. However, we usually say that a person is a bad person when this person has acted wrong repeatedly, that is, when this person has acted repeatedly without taking into account the others. In this case, we don’t trust this person because she or he can’t be included in the group defined in the last paragraph.
So, as I don’t want to generalize I won say that this person is bad but I’ll say that she or he is not a good person. In conclusion I’ll say that Emma hasn’t been a good person.
Much as I dislike Harriet I have to admit she was very clever choosing his love because she has chosen the best character of this book. I wish I were her. It would make me feel very happy because I love that kind of man as Mr. K. is. He seems to be a very sure man of himself who has the right word for each person.
The things have changed for E, now she’s thinking of Mr. K the whole time. In a scene in which she’s walking through the garden, Mr. K appeared and they started to walk together, E sees him in a strange mood, and she gets worried as she’s sure he’s going to tell her about his wedding with H. Their relationship is very strong although E isn’t aware of it, and be imagining it as if it were to break up. How strange our imagination works in all circumstances of our lives!! But much more when love is the aim. E knows nothing up to know, but she’s suffering from a horrible torture. At this point E just wants Kr K to be in love with her. Never has she been in such a horrible uncertainty. On no account would she have imagined her feelings as they are now. Wouldn’t she?
Isidro, another important thing..,we define the concept about which we are speaking..,she or he trieS..,
I don't agree with you, I do think that there are good and bad people and that certainly some people are worse than others. You don't consider E's age, she is young and has to learn. None of us are saints and E has to act better,she realises so towards the end of the novel. The important thing is that E means well, she is not aware of the harm she is causing. She does realise it when she sees everything clearly.
E isn’t aware of it, and she's imagining
Clara, things have..., and she is imagining..,
A very true comment, it is that suffering that is making her change, I think that the fact that she is able to finally see things clearly is very important and it shows that she is not as foolish as she has been showing herself lately.
In my opinion, Emma has acted wrong in many cases. Some of Emma’s bad behaviors are these:
1.- Mr Elton in chapter IX went to Emma’s house just to leave a piece of paper on the table with a charade and he said.
“I do not offer it for Miss Smith’s collection, said he. Being my friend’s I have no right to expose it in any degree to the public eye, but perhaps you may not dislike looking at it.
The speech was more to Emma than to Harriet, which Emma could understand. There was deep consciousness about him, and he found it easier to meet her aye than her friend’s. He was gone the next moment’s pause.
Take it said Emma, smiling, and pushing the paper toward Harriet, it is for you. Take your own."
Do you really think that Emma didn’t lie when she said to Harriet that the charade was to her?
In my opinion, there is no doubt that Emma lied, because she understood clearly Mr Elton.
2º.- In this point I’m going to show an example of contradiction between Emma’s thoughts and her later behavior.
“The first error and the worst lay at her door. It was foolish, it was wrong, , to take so active part in bringing any two people together. It was adventuring too far, assuming too much, making light of what ought to be serious, a trick of what ought to be simple. She was quite concerned and ashamed, and resolver to do such things no more.”(Chapter XVI).
What wise thoughts! But Emma’s problem is that she doesn’t accord her behaviour to these words, as we see here:
The next quotation shows how Emma intends to counteract Harriet’s attraction to Mr Martin, in my opinion in the worst way: revitalizing in Harriet’s mind Mr Elton’s image, when he is already married.
….”at last, in order to put the Martins out of her head, was obliged to hurry on the news, which she had meant to give with so much tender caution; hardly knowing herself whether to rejoice or be angry, ashamed or only amused, at such a state of mind in poor Harriet, such a conclusion of Mr Elton’s importance with her!”
I think that these texts show clearly Emma’s incongruity and evilness. And, I could put more examples, as you Know well.
I'm sorry.
this text shows clearly....
Isidro, she understood E clearly. Order S+V+O+A.
I don't think E did it with such a bad intention, I think she wanted so much Mr. E and H to be together that she lied to herself, but remember that the other day we said that that was quite normal between girls, you see boys are not like that, they don't say to their friends what they should do with their girlfriends, but girls do.
It is very difficult to control the situation that Emma is now because she feel afraid of losing Mr. Knightley. If she could be able to see Mr. Knigley´s face perhaps she would realise how he is feeling in this moment.
He is worried that Emma continues to be in love Frank and she only thinks how to ask Mr. K. about Harriet but, neither can think clearly at that moment in which both are suffering so deeply because of the love they feel.
Isidro, you want to prove that E has acted badly and we all agree, but I'm not so sure you can prove she is bad, I don't think she is BAD, Mrs.Weston says she is not and she knows her since she was a baby practically, I do think E has done bad things and she is not my favourite but I insist that she has changed and this time she has seen it clearly so I think she is going to have more sense.
Most of us think so bare that in mind too, we can't all be wrong, we can't all understand it differently to you. I don't want to convince, it is good that we see things differently let's ask the professor and see what he says
About Emma’s evilness I shouldn’t say that Emma is a bad person but a stupid one. Her problems are due the lack of knowledge respecting human nature of people around her. From she was a little child she has been used to be the center of attention of everybody. Nobody except Mr. K has disagreed with Emma in no matter. That’s why she has to pay the consequences now. Generally, everybody has to mature along their lives; the pith of question is that the ones do it before than the others. In this case we should say that Emma, clever as, everybody thinks, she is, suffers a kind of delay to empathize people around her because she has never done it. Emma’s social and familiar conditioning factors have done she wouldn’t be able to mature as she should have been the right.
Emma’s state of mind has changed drastically from chapter 47, nearly the end of the book, we’ll see what is going to happen. I hope Emma improves respecting the way to interact with people around at the end of the novel.
Marta, Emma has misled all the other characters of the novel. Mrs Weston thinks that she knows very well Emma but it is not true, because she doesn’t knows Emma’s thoughts.
Emma managed Mrs Weston, as Mr Knightley said to Mrs Weston one time at the beginning of the novel, in chapter V.
“Emma is spoiled by being the cleverest of the family. At ten years old she had the misfortune of being able to answer question which puzzled her sister at seventeen. She was always quick and assured…….. And ever since she was twelve, Emma has been mistress of the house and of you all.”
I agree with you in which Emma is not BAD, I only think that she is bad. The novel is about of the daily life of a very small group of people in a very limited rural area who spend their lives making parties where the characters try to fight the boredom by means of games, balls and trivial conversations. In my opinion, in a so limited society all the characters need each other and the most important thing is not to be excluded. So, all of them need to keep up appearances. In such society it is very difficult became a hero or a wicked person.
I agree with you, in which it is good that we see things differently. Sometime your comments have obliged me to do a second reading what has made me possible to see things that I hadn’t seen the first time. So, I thank you very much the possibility of improving my writing participating in the blog, because, at least in my case, the blog has been what more has helped me. Never did I think that I could work so much in English as this year!
In conclusion, Marta, I Know that I exaggerate a lot, but I’m going to look for disagreement because it forces me to look for convincing arguments.
sometimes your comments....
Emma has been the family’s center of attention. She was so mature at twelve as to be the mistress of her house. Only has Mr Knightley dared to criticize her. He knows that she has behaved ill sometimes but he doesn’t know so much Emma’s thought as we do. I’m going to continue to my list of Emma’s ill behaviours.
3.- Emma is a class conscious person who wishes the others should recognize her superiority, like when she thought that if she were invited to the Coles’s party she wouldn’t go. And the only thing she regretted was not to be able to show then her superiority, as we see in chapter 25:
“Nothing should tempt her to go, if they did (to invite her); and she regretted that her father’s known habits would be giving her refusal less meaning than she could wish.”
Emma rejected Mrs Elton and didn’t want to associate with her because of her vulgarity. And when Mrs Weston and Mr Knightley showed her that Mss Fairfax was doomed to accept Mrs Elton’s friendship because she felt lonely, she promised to change her attitude with regard to her, but Emma didn’t really take care of Jane until she was ill.
Continuing with my last idea about feelings when you’re in love, it’s important to notice how Mr. K is jealous of F. He says that F is a most fortunate man, and makes a list of the things he has, without noticing he is much more fortunate than F. At this point he’s incapable of feel that E is nearer him than she is with another person.
And it’s curious that things happened 200 years ago like they happen nowadays. It doesn’t matter how interested Mr. K was in telling E about his love for her, he couldn’t do it in a direct way, not only because he’s older, but also because they have established roles in their lives that are difficult to break.
4.- When Emma knew Frank and Jane’s engagement got desolated and her first reaction was against Frank.
“Impropriety! Oh! Mrs Weston- it is too calm a censure. Much, much beyond impropriety! It has sunk him, I connot say how it has sunk him in my opinion. So unlike what a man should be! None of that upright integrity, that strict adherence to truth and principle, that disdain of trick and littleness, which a man should display in every transaction of his life.” (chapter 46)
Where is the self-criticism? She had soon to soften her criticism to Frank in order to minimize her own fault. And she began to look for a way out of this situation.
…”how did Mr Churchill take it?
……Most favourably to his nephew, gave his consent with scarcely a difficulty
Ah! Thought Emma, he would have done as much for Harriet.” (chapter 46) It is not ridiculous?
And what do you think about this:
“ Harriet, poor Harriet! Those were the words; in the tormenting ideas which Emma could not get rid of, and which constituted the real misery of the business to her. Frank Churchill had behaved very ill by herself- very ill in many ways,- but it was not so much his behaviour as her own, which made her so angry with him. It was the scrape which he had drown her into Harriet’s account, that gave the deepest hue to his offence.” (chapter 47)
In my opinion, Emma can’t transfer her own responsibility to the others.
Ana Mª,from the time when she.., used to being.., have made it impossible for her to mature..,
I agree with you, her circumstances were an impediment for her to mature. As we read in the first chapters she had had little in life to distress or annoy her!
Isidro, but she cannot mislead all of us we know her better!
..in that E is not bad.., so limited a society.., a 2nd reading which..,
I think you are perfectly right in looking at things differently, as it is very enriching for all the rest of us and for you because you work harder. I'm sorry you have worked so hard but you are the one who has improved more, in my opinion, and I'm sure that you will always remember this year as enriching for yourself as well as for your English. Analising others is always good and I think that it also helps us analise ourselves. I hope that after realising E's faults we'll try to be so manipulating with others!
Isidro, don't you think that Mr.K is exaggerating a little when he says that? How could it be possible? That E should get her way more easily than other children is possible, but more than that I very much doubt.
I agree that she is a snob, but remember her age, she is 21! How can one not have faults at that age? Who taught E to be a snob?? She must have heard something at home. It is also the adults' fault not only hers.
She means well with Jane, but it is true that it is not until chapter 47that she fully realises everything
Clara, incapable of feeling..,
I agree with the bit about the same as 200 years ago. But why do you say that Mr.K does not see that he is as lucky as F? Mr.K has done nothing wrong and probably he wouldn't be excused as F has been. I agree with Mr. K that he is lucky he says it in his speech to E in a very funny and true way!
Isidro, I love it when you quote. Yes E thinks more of what he has done than of what SHE has. But here it is better because she hasn't interfered so much as with Mr.Martin. Don't you remembered she told H she wouldn't? She thinks H is after F but we know better now, so it is her blindness again but this time she's done little to promote the affair.
I agree with her that she has behaved most improperly, worse than her. She thought he was free, he knew he wasn't
Hi mates! I think E. is suffering the consequences of her behaviour. If she let H. be free to be in love with Mr.M, now, H. would be happy with him and she wouldn´t have this problem. So, in my opinion, it´s a good lesson for her, although, a bit later.
And, thanks Clara for opening us the door of the comtemporary. Because problems with love are the same in every age. I think it´s difficult to Mr.K and E. change their roles, especially in my opinion to him. Because they have had a special relationship like brothers more or less, and now, finding out he is in love with her and how to explain it and how to act now being older than her, it´s everything less easy and it needs time.
Carol, although a bit late.., difficult for Mr.K and E to change.., for him..,like brother and sister..,
I think that Mr.K knows he is in love with E, but I suppose he was waiting for her to be older and for signs of her returning that love. I think that when he saw that he could lose her, he said I'll risk it and went for it. Don't you think??
After Mss Taylor’s marriage Emma needed a friend because she was very lonely and she couldn’t stand the boring parties that she organized to her father.
Emma realized very soon that Harriet was going to be very useful to her as a walking companion. So, she decided to do all what should be necessary to not to lose her. It looks as if she should be very interested in frustrating all Harriet’s loves.
At first, Emma achieved Harriet should forget Mr Martin. After this, she said that she was intending to match Harriet with Mr Elton but in reality she only intended it from the side of Harriet, but from the other side she didn’t do anything.
When she believed that Harriet was in love with Frank, Emma’s behaviour with Frank made to think everybody that between them there was more than simple friendship. So, Emma did all to close the passage to Harriet.
And we just found out that Emma would wish that Harriet shouldn’t marry with Mr Knightley in spite of thinking that she wouldn’t marry Mr Knightley if she were asked by him.
I understand this last attitude because Emma is in love with Mr Knightley, but I don’t accept her previous attitude because it was like the Spanish saying: the orchard’s dog.
I think that Mr Knightley has calculated very well the moment to declare his love to Emma. He had seen the play of Mr Elton and Emma. He had perceived some signs of attachment between Frank and Jane, and she had communicated it to Emma, but Emma had assured that he was wrong. Let’s us to recall that Mr Knightley had had to go to the coolness and solitude of Donwell Abbey after having insinuate a certain attachment or admiration for one another.
Mr Knightley couldn’t do other thing because he didn’t want to deteriorate a long friendship.
Finally, Frank and Emma’s flirtation in Box Hill, not only provoked Jane’s reaction but Mr Knightley’s. He went to London convinced of having lost his chance.
I think that only did Mr Knightley decide to declare his love to Emma when he saw he had any possibility of success. He knew Frank and Jane’s engagement and he thought that Emma would be very disappointed, but he discovered that she wasn’t in love with Frank.
So, Mr Knightley decided to declare his love to Emma, not because he thought he could lose her, but because he saw clearly that she was free and he had clear way.
It is very difficult to control the situation that Emma is now because she feel afraid of losing Mr. Knightley. If she could be able to see Mr. Knigley´s face perhaps she would realise how he is feeling in that moment.
He is worried that Emma continues to be in love Frank and she only thinks how to ask Mr. K. about Harriet but, neither of them can think clearly at that moment in which both are suffering so deeply because of the love they feel.
I think that Mr Knightley doesn’t exaggerate when he said that Emma at twelve was as mature as to be the mistress of the house. First, because his thoughts has been always very accurated and 2nd , because he said it to Mrs Weston and she didn’t reply him.
Moreover, I think that we must consider that Emma was mature, if not at 12, at least at 21. I would like to highlight that the novel only tells us some months of the characters’ life. It is not reasonable to think that just before the end of the novel, when Emma realized that she was in love with Mr Knightley she got mature.
I'm sorry....
.....his thoughts have always been very accurated.....
Isidro, to do all that..,all of H's loves.., made everybody think..,
I think that your dislike of E is so great that you are not objective. E tried to make H interested in Mr.E, she has power over her and it is possible but how could she do the same with him? She was wrong we all know but we told you the other day that all women do it
Isidro, let us recall..,after a certain...having been insinuated.., another thing..,
I think that you are right about Mr.K's declaration but I suppose he thought that if didn't declare his love one of these days E was going to find her man and he would have lost his chance. I am positive that jealousy played its part too in his declaration. Some men only react to that too, let's face it.
María, in which E is now..,
Yes I think they are suffering but E more than Mr.K and when he realises that she is not in love with Frank he decides to propose, well men did it not women, it was not the thing!
Isidro, I think Mrs.W didn't reply because she understood the exaggeration. Do you honestly think that a child of 12 can rule anything?? Come on it is impossible!
I'm not going to take you seriously if you say that E at 21 was exactly like at 12! E has matured I think because she reacts like an adult at the end and not at the beginning. I hope that in life we learn something and we can improve if not what is the good of life. I think you say all this to provoke me and you don't mean it!
Marta, I can’t believe that all women should behave with their friends as Emma did with Harriet in relation with Frank.
If your better friend tells you that she is in love with a man, would you really flirt with him in front of her.
In my opinion, if you did it, you would behave very ill, unless you were in love with him.
Mr K is afraid of losing E now he’s sure she’s not in love with F and she can get another man… Mr K has to act as quick as possible, he doesn’t want her to have another opportunity of having an affair.
Marta I don’t know if you remember that I said Mr K was very lucky while I was talking about F and you asked me why I thought like that way; well don’t you think a person who has everything in life is not a lucky person? He envies F for his successful in his relationships and in love, but Mr K is a bit coward, if he was in love with E the whole time, why doesn’t he try to get her? What would have happened if E and had decided to engage each other? He might not do anything; I don’t like this idea at all. I like men that fight for what they want.
would you really flirt with him in front of her?
Isidro, I agree with you but you forget that E was not flirting consciously she thought she was trying to help her friend by telling Frank nice things about her. Frank himself was not flirting with E either he was trying to deviate people's attention from Jane and him, but nothing else. He enjoyed a bit of light flirting.
Women are capable of many things specially when men are concerned.
But men are capable of dishonesty too where women are concerned.
I think you put all the blame on E and others are guilty too.
What about Jane's lies? What about H's lack of character and enfatuation with men, 3 in two months whom she found hersef really in love with?
Clara, his success..,to marry not to engage each other.
I think Mr.K didn't propose because he thought that E was not ready yet and maybe also he had not realised his feelings for her. That is also possible, sometimes we need something special to make us click, Mr.K maybe had not clicked until he realised he could lose her.
He is lucky, but so is Frank and maybe even more so than Mr.K, he is probably richer, certainly younger and undoubtedly more fun to be with, Mr.K is a serious man, the other is more jolly
I think that Mr Knightley didn’t think that Emma could find a man one of these days. He knows very well that, after Frank public engagement, there are other men, unless he should think that Mr Martin is a good candidate.
In my opinion, Mr Knightley is a very realistic man. Never would he give a false step.
In my opinion, Mr Knightley is a very realistic man. Never would he give a false step.
Clara I totally agree with you in which Mr Knighley is a bit coward, but I disagree in which he has to act quickly, because I think that there isn’t any possibility. As well Mr Knighley knows that Emma has always said that she never would be married.
You’re right Marta, but I don’t know why I can’t see Mr. like you do. I know he’s older than F and this is the worst thing, but for him, as many women like old men, they find them much more interesting and attractive. I see him as a great man and I find it really logic that E feels in love with him and not with a foppish man as F is.
Marta, I didn’t want to say that Emma was at 21 exactly as 12. I wanted to say that, even if Mr Knightley exaggerates saying that she was mature enough at twelve, I consider that it is not exaggerated to considerate her mature at 21.
Do you really think that she was playing with Frank thinking in Harriet? You must remember that everybody thought differently. And the problem is that Harriet thought it too, but she didn’t suffer because Emma was mistaken about her feeling. If she had been really in love with Frank, she would have suffered a lot.
But it looks as if Harriet’s feeling shouldn't matter anybody.
We are nearly at the end of the novel. What is going to happen with Emma and Mr K.? Could it be possible Emma consents to get married now? In any way the situation has changed, she recognizes her own loved feeling forward M. K. and she also knows her love is deeply requited by him. Do you think could she maintain her word about not getting married?
In my opinion, another interesting point is the one related with Harriet. We don’t know yet how will the possible engagement between E and Mr.K. affect H. in the future.
I'm sorry
.....enought mature at twelve....
I agree with the opinion expressed last week in the class by a mate who said that Emma was more mature what it is normal at her age.
Hi mates again! Clara, I agree with you absolutely. Mr K wants to "hunt" E. now because, maybe, she could finds another "victim" for her "games". And, in my opinion, he didn´t want to tell his feelings to her before because he thought she was immature and she needed to have expiriences to be more mature, so he decided to give time to her. But, now, everything is different he knows he should take advantage of the moment not to lose his opportunity.
And, Isidro, women are very complicated, overall when we are young and we are looking for our place. It happens to E. At the beginning, she acted badly because she thought living was a game but she is growing up and she has realized the value of fellings and people and now, things are very different. And as Marta´s saying it´s the good of living and I would like to add " and of loving"!!!
Isidro, after Frank's engagement..,
I disagree with you, E is handsome and rich and 21, is there no other man for her to marry in England??? Come on she was sure to find another suitor any of Isabella and John's friends or God knows.
..a bit of a coward.., she would never be married..,
I disagree with you there too, I don't see why he should be a coward the possibility of his not being aware of his feelings or his wanting E to mature a little more exists in my opinion. You are too rush to judge I'm afraid, and to condemn too. Mr.K has sense but in love affairs he not an expert and of course he risks a lot, imagine E should refuse!
Clara, I see your point and share it but you have to consider that not all women like older men, Mr.K is not that fun, he doesn't dance, he doesn't laugh at other people, he is always scolding E, she is young she wants to laugh and have fun, she wants to be crossed in love maybe, some women do although one suffers, I don't know but I certainly don't think Mr.K is a coward, there is no cowardice in his behaviour, he always speaks what he feels with tact, but fearless.
Isidro, thinking OF.., matter to anybody..,
I don't think H suffered a lot when E flirted with Mr. Elton, according to John K that is what she was doing, and I think that E was acting pretty the same. H is certainly not a deep person and she has little ability to see things, so probably she didn't notice anything. And do you think it is normal to be madly in love with 3 men in 3 months?
You are a man you must listen to what women say, we all said it the other day but you don't seem to have considered it. Women and men think and act differently.
Ana Mª, could it be possible that.., her own feelings for Mr.K.., do you think she could.., it is not a direct question so we don't invert.
..how the engagement will be..,
Yes the novel is getting more exiciting isn't it?
Isidro, more..than.., mature enough..,
Carol, she could FIND..,
I completely agree with you and you put it very well, Isidro I hope you take it into account!!!!
Hi, today I could not go to class because I was sick, and I had a cough but I hope to go on Thursday. I have been reading Emma.
These chapters 49 and 50 are getting more interesting and we can see how Frank explain to Mrs. Weston everything in order she can understand why he has remained his engaged in secret with Jane.
And Frank appears to be very worry about his behavior with everybody but specially with Mrs. Weston who has been very kind always with him.
Marta, Carol, María, etc… Obviously, you know better than me your own sex. I think that I have lost the battle in advance.
The problems is that you speak about what E is becoming and I speak about what Emma has doing in the pass. I think that I also will forgive Emma finally, but I want she to suffer a little before, because it will be good for her. She needs to be a little less selfish and to take into account others point of view.
Marta, I speak of Harriet’s hypothetical suffering when Emma is flirting with Frank and you speak to me about Emma’s flirting about Mr Elton.
I don’t think it be normal that Harriet should be in love with 3 men in 3 months, but it is neither good nor bad. I think that a person it is not responsible of his felling.
Sincerely, I don’t believe that a man could appear immediately behind the shrubbery and marry Emma if Mr Knightley doesn’t harry up.
Mr Knightley knows very well Emma. He knows Emma want her possible husband to acquire the commitment of playing cards every day with Mr Woodhouse and of listening all his concerns about his horses and even share his diet.
Let’s me understand.
It seems to be that Emma has acted ill because she hadn’t matured. So, when she acted ill it was because she didn’t realize what she was doing. However, after Harriet’s declaration of her love to Mr Knightley, Emma has suddenly matured and from now on, not only she is going to be a good person, that she was already, but she is going to look like.
.....after Harriet’s declaration to Emma that she loved Mr Knightley
Hi fellows, it is a long time ago since I have entered on the blog and of course I have to pay for that abandon, I have had to read a lot of interesting ideas and I have spent a little time I catch up.
By anyway, first at all, I would like to say: Isidro you are a brave man because you are alone among so many women but I think you defend yourself very well, I am referring when you say:Marta, Carol, María, etc… Obviously, you know better than me your own sex. I think that I have lost the battle in advance. Don’t worry, you haven’t lost the battle but you have to consider that we have an advantage over you because we are used to reading love novel, I don’t shame to say I prefer love novel than war novel, although this book is not exactly a love novel, I don’t find any feeling of passion on any character even if they are declaring their love to other person, I see the only feeling in the novel is “jealous” among all the characters, don't it?
Hi everyone!
Isidro, in my opinion, we have been seeing Emma's evolution during the last chapters, not only when Harriet told her that she loved Mr.K. But now, what we can see is how Emma thinks freely, with no blindness, and she accepts what was a fact; her love to Mr.K.
I think she has had many situations to grow up as an adult: the two frustrated matches trying to find a man for Harriet, her regret about her attitude with Mrs Bates in Box Hill, her relationship with Frank, etc.
Hi everybody! I have found Chapter 50 very interesting. They are revealed some of the mysteries that we have been wondered long time ago. For instance, the very moment when Frank appears in Highbury at first time, or who is the person that have sent the piano-forté to Jane. We have also known about Jane’s own ignorance in this matter.
Another business I have paid my attention, men do not get upset please, it is the blunder related with Frank’s answer to Jane’s letter. How is possible Frank should leave forgotten his answer locked it up in his writing-desk? I’m sorry, but I consider that kind of mistakes are committed much more by men than by women. Do you think sensibility is a question of genre?
Mercedes, I think you are right. Not only is there love in this novel. It is a novel about feeling in general: jealousy, envy, pride, vanity,frustration, friendship, enmity, hatred, disappointment, sadness, joy, love, ... In my opinion it is about the search of identity which drives the characters to look for their place in the world. As often happens in small communities of rural areas, life is pretty boring and the characters have to devise strategies in order to dealing the rivalrys that arise between them. and some characters play fair and other less fair.
Monica, you are right. Emma has been making mistekes all time. She has been a pampered, selfish and conceited woman. But finally she has found
her place and we must supose that she will stop managing the others. In my opinion, she is a lucky woman because Mr Knightley will guide her on the right track.
I agree with Isidro and Mercedes . This novel is about feelings , way of living and how to be and especially, how to know ourselves and , over all, our relations by others.
In general, it is a novel about human beings and their nature.
Life is a permanent search of something and not only in small and rural areas but also in big cities, everybody is looking for a place in the society.
Isidro, E wantS..,
Yes and so what, E is handsome and rich of course she would find another man! At that time men married they did not stay single. E was sure to find another man.
Isidro, you put it in a way... Think that this is a novel time sequence is not the same, E is better and she changes because she has suffered many blows in the last few chapters, that has made her mature, we don't know but I don't suppose she will be the foolish girl of the beginning of the novel. You have to ask the professor about the evolution of the character. I'm sure he will explain very well.
Mr Knightley has come back when he found out of Frank's engagment. And he thought that Emma was desolated. In reality, Mr knightley gave his condolences to Emma in a way that I consider too much formal. When they met he didn't think of declaring his love to Emma. These are Mr Knightley's words:
"Time, my dearest Emma, time will heal the wound,- i will you will not allow yourself-Her arm was pressed again, as he added, in a more broken and sbdued accent. The feeling of the warmest friendship-Indignation-Abominable scoundrel!...
And Emma replied......... I never have been at all attached to the person we are speaking of..."
Only after these words delared Mr K his love to Emma. That's when he knew that she didn't had any attachment wit Frank, as he thought. Therefore I think that Clara was right when she said that Mr Knightle has been a coward. Perhaps it shouldn't be the exact word, but I agree to her in the idea.
Emma knows clearly how his behaviour has been with regard to Emma. She haven't been loyal neither sincerily with her. And she can't be either cincere to Mr. Knightley, therefore she blush.
We can see it clearly in chapter 51, when Mr K read Frank's letter and commented it with Emma. In a moment he said:
....."Fancying you to have fathomed his secret. Natural enough!- his own mind full of intrigue, that he should suspect in others- Mystery, Finesse- how they pervert the understanding! My Emma, does not every thing serve to prove more and more the beauty of truth and sincerity in all our dealings with each other?
Emma agreed to it, and with a blush of sensibility on Harriet's account, which she could not give any sincere explanation of."
....any attachment with her. as he had been thought...
Oh!!!! I'm sorry.
...as he had thought...
I think Mr.K is not a coward. He was in love with Emma since she was 13 and expected the best time to declare his love, but then he realized that he could lose Emma because of Frank. And when he learned that Emma did not love Frank he did not want to wait anymore and declared his love.. I think he chose the best opportunity to realize his dream of a lifetime, he had been educating Emma since she was a little girl.
María. AV 1D, it is possible that Mr K not be a coward. Perhaps it would be more precise to say pusillanimous, or excessively cautious. But he has contemplated firstly Mr Elton's flirt with Emma (though Emma were ignorant of it) and later Frank's without taking any initiative. Do you think that John Knightley could realize immediately Mr Elton's infatuation and that Mr Knightley, that was in love with Emma, didn't realize it? In the case of Frank, it is a fact that Mr Knightley thought that there was an attachment between Frank and Emma. I think reasonable that Mr. K should wait at 13 but not at 21.
When Mr K knew Frank's engagement came back to express Emma his condolence and to support her, because he tought she would be desolated. And only after realizing Emma's lack of interest in relation to Frank, did he decide to declare Emma his love. That is, only when there wasn't rivals within sight, did he decide to take the great step.
I'm sorry.
In my last coment of 23.......
with regard to Harriet.... And she wasn't sincere to Mr K , therefore she blushed.
After having written a letter, Frank is forgiven by Jane, by Mrs Eston and by Emma.
Jane would have forgiven Frank before, if he had said her goodbye and he had been a little kind to her, because she love him; and much more easily now that he has apologized and communicated her Mr Churchill’s agreement to their marriage.
Mrs Weston has forgiven Frank too, because she is Mr Weston’s wife and because she is a very good person. As well, Frank has flattered her sufficiently.
Emma, after her first astonishment, was very determined to forgive him too, not only because she was interested in safeguarding her own relationship with Mrs and Mr Weston, but because she needed to minimize her own ridiculous. She knows that the more reprehensible should be Frank’s conduct, the more reprehensible will be her own behaviour.
I think that in a judicial process must be a defense lawyer and also a prosecutor. So in order to balance Emma's influence I have decided to play the role of Emma's accuser, because I think that her point of view distorts the judgment.
Long ago, before the judge should pronounce a sentence it was a custom to take the accused's wife and children in court, where they cried and showed their pain in order to trying to impress the judge.
I know that an ethical judgement is not the same than a judicial process. But the only thin that I want to say is that the best way, in order to achieve the objectivity, is trying not to be impressed by the judged person's cries and point of view.
So, as I have seen that Emma's words of repentance seem to be the effect of modify the qualification of her previous conduct, I have decided to counteract this effect. And the only thing that I say is that Emma's repentance is sincere and that she deserves to be forgiven. However, the act are bad or good for ever. The person can change and become different but the pass always accompany us. Therefore Emma blushes.
Much as I like Emma I have to admit that she is not as brave as she appear to be because she never is able to put face to face with the problems that she find in the novel. I remember the first one when she realizes that Mr. Elton was in love her and not Harriet; the next day she was pleased to see a lot of snow outside and thought that it was a good thing because it means she could not go to church and see Mr.Elton, or go to visit Harriet.
Scarcely did she know Mr. Knightley´s declaration when she tought it would be a good idea if Harriet went away from Highbury for a short time so they did not see each other for a few weeks.
That´s why I think she always try to scape from the problems but there is no scaping from the problems.
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