15 de octubre de 2009

EMMA

The groups of level A1 are going to read this novel by Jane Austen during the course. Please join in and post your comments.

907 comentarios:

1 – 200 de 907   Más reciente›   El más reciente»
marta dijo...

Hello everybody, I am Marta Peredo, the teacher who is missing! Actually I am not missing I am on leave because my father, 91, has fallen down and broken his ankle and consequently he needs help. I´m sorry they haven´t sent a teacher and till they do we´ll have to make the most of it.
First of all I would like you to read at least 10 chapters of the novel, looking up all the new vocabulary and learning it. It is impossible to learn English without studying, so if you dedicate the time of the lessons to that: studying, it would be perfect. I also want you to do 10 minutes minimum of listening to English everyday, you can listen to the news in the internet for eg. But do whatever you prefer. It would also be a good idea to learn by heart one new word of vocabulary per day including Saturdays and Sundays.
Revise all the structures you learnt in 3rd. And be sure that though the lesson is important, it is much more so to study. The lesson means 20% of the learning process, the other 80% must be done out of the classroom. So don´t waste time. I hope you´ll follow this advice you´ll see how it pays to do what I´ve told you.

marta dijo...

To begin with the novel, we can discuss about the beginning. What do you think of that beginning? E.Woodhouse, hansome, clever and rich....
Is it promising?? What does it suggest?
By the way you may also start doing all the exercises in the text book, you must do them and I´ll give you the key when I´m back to mark them. Exercises are very important too, just like writing. If you write in the blog every other day you will improve a lot.

María. 4º D dijo...

Hello I am María.
Perhaps that is the way in which women are valued, in that order.
All this things are important when you are going to choose a person who is going to live with you. But it is diferent in each case. Every person give importance to one thing, depen on which he is looking in the other.

Moniki dijo...

Hello! I'm Monica of AV1-C:
I think we must bear in mind the time this novel was written. In that moment, to give a woman the adjective of handsome at the first time was important, but what about clever? It wasn't necessary for men to have a clever wife. I think the author wanted to show a change in women's way of thinking and the way the society saw them using that order.
Enjoy your reding!

marta dijo...

María an interesting comment, do you think we are valued so today? At least Austen puts "clever" in the second place!!! Regarding style I think she has done it cleverly as it sounds fantastic, try saying it in a loud voice and changing the adjs, it is not quite so good. Don´t forget the "s" of the third person:every person gives. Remember that every takes sg in English.
Moniki, I agree with you entirely, Austen places importance in the fact that she was clever, she also uses hansome, an adj often applied to men. Women were beautiful. Austen´s heroine is not a silly vulnerable girl of the type liked by the Victorian authors, here is a woman with a mind.
Austen who lived and wrote in a world of men is going to introduce us into the feminine world to what purpose? There is something for you to think about.
What about the men? Tell me something about them

marta dijo...

Just another quick thought, what do you think that men value more today? Would we use the same order to describe a woman or what do we value now?

marta dijo...

Good news everybody!! Your teacher has arrived today apparently and so you´ll have lessons next week. Work hard, I´ll continue posting my comments on the blog.

mercedes AV1C dijo...

Hi everybody,
Marta you are right, it drew my attention that adjective "handsome" was used for a woman instead of beautiful or pretty. I haven't read all the novel yet, and I don't know about others books of Austen so I can't understand writer's reason. I would like to think that Auster try to put her heroin in the same place that men, but this is difficult to believe because from my point of view the society at that time was very sexist,women have a ocupation "marriage".
I think, nowadays is not so different than before,although the woman has a post in the lobour world, for men, in general, most important thing of a woman is it "beauty", I know there are exceptions, but it is most important "beauty" than "clever"

marta dijo...

Mercedes, do not put the art in the plural:other books, ok? I know that we all have mistakes due to the typing, etc. but I just want to point out some that can be worth pointing out so that if it is a misprint you are more careful and if it is not you try and learn the right way of doing it.
Austen trieS.. It is better to say the same AS not than, though colloquially it is acceptable.
Nowadays it is not so different as...For men in general the most important thing in a woman is beauty.... beauty and intelligence are the most important things.
Remember to use the English structure which fortunately for us is always the same:S+V+O+Adv
Yes I agree with you men value beauty more than intelligence at least in Spain, I notice that in other countries they don´t favour beauty as they do in Spain. For example, who would have married Camilla in Spain??
It is a pity but we haven´t improved much in that field things are very much as they were.
I think Austen values, cleverness in a woman and independence. I mean being independent we can see that in Emma´s attitude to marriage what does she think about it?

marta dijo...

I see no comments, remember that is something for you to practise so you should write something every other day or so.

clara a1 dijo...

Hi everybody,
Today is my first comment in this blog, but I've read all your posts and I’ve found them so interesting so I wanted to say a couple things, one of them is to thank Marta for correcting our mistakes, it’s great to see them corrected, almost everybody makes the same mistakes, so we soon stop to make them, the more we see them the better we’ll write in the future.
And on the other hand, I wanted to speak about the author, in my opinion at that time life was more difficult for women than it is for them nowadays, J.A. had to fight against a kind of life in which women couldn't do anything without their husbands’ permission, they always need their opinion and consent for everything. At that point, I can understand Emma didn’t want to get married, but what I can’t understand is why she wants to arrange other women marriages.
Marta I hope your father gets better so soon.

Mercedes AV1C dijo...

Hi,
Marta, thanks so much for your corrections. I appreciate a lot your work because I learn throught my mistakes,for me, it is very important to know how I make a mistake and I will try to avoid them, although it is hard, I need to write and read the whole time, but always it seems I need more and more time to study English, I think English is a difficult lenguage.
Well, on the other hand, Clara you are right, it is not a long time ago Spanish women didn't can buy or sell any property without her husband's permission even they didn't can ask for a credit card a bank. Apparently, these situations have changed and now the woman have the same rights than men although the society is sexist at the moment, step by step woman are going to get important posts into the society.
Yes, it is strange that Emma wants to manage to marry people each other and she doesn't get married, I need to continue reading the novel.

marta dijo...

Clara and Mercedes thank you for your thanks and Clara, thanks for your interest in my father´s health, he is better which is really good news.
Clara, stop making them, you say "I stopped studying as I had to work" you see how the verb is followed by inf or gerund? Careful if you are writing in the past stick to the past "they needed their opinion"
As for your opinion I think it is very true women are more independent now than they ever were and I think Emma looks for husbands for those friends of hers who do not have money as Harriet Smith. What do you think about that interference? Should people interfere? Mr. Knightly tells Emma off for that... Or is it that men undoubtedly have less insight than we do or are more selfish and never think of what they can do for others?

marta dijo...

Mercedes you are in a very good disposition to learn, it is true that we all make mistakes when speaking and the only way to get rid of them is learning by heart the correct way of saying it.
The more English you know the more you´ll realise that it is difficult but it is worth it and the structure is not at all so. You have a good level and the oportunity of two years to reach an even better one so make the most of it you will never regret it. The more you use the blog the more you´ll improve it is very good to write something every day or every other day.
Spanish women couldn´t buy... you can´t use DID with a modal auxiliary as it inverts itself, it doesn´t need an auxiliary.
Women are independent economically now but are we so emotionally? I think we still depend on men a lot what do you think?
And now women have...women are going to get important posts in society.... to marry people, you don´t need to add anything

clara a1 dijo...

Marta first of all I want to tell you I’m glad to hear your father’s better.
With respect to my mistakes, obviously, you’re right, I knew the theory about -ing or gerund but I put it in the wrong way. I have to admit I reread the post twice or three times but it’s impossible for me to do it perfectly.
Talking about the novel, I think the authoress makes up Mr knightly much more sensible than the rest of men in the world. He tells Emma off for her interference in Mrs Harriet Smith’s life; according to him Harriet should get married the farmer, and so on... and for him this is not a game, as it seems to be for Emma, who enjoys doing this kind of things, but he is different, he thinks about the others, about their future.
Men are not so sensible, they are usually selfish, and so they don’t see what they have in front of their noses.

Mercedes AV1C dijo...

Marta,
I am glad too to have heard your father is feeling better.
I would like to say my mistake is so ugly and so horrible, I'm sorry I don't know how I could write it.I am very silly.
I'll post about Austen's book later, now I am working and I can't, but I couldn't avoid to put this note about my mistake.
Thank a lot.

marta dijo...

Clara don´t worry making mistakes is normal and you are here to learn and improve. When we are finally proficient it is because we have managed to get rid of all the mistakes. It is important to write and make the mistake so that you can correct it, so keep it up.
I think you hit the nail on its head, Emma means well but it seems as if it were a kind of game, Mr.K is not only sensible but sensitive, as he feels for others and their situation. I agree that he is much better than the rest of the male characters, Mr.Weston is fantastic but too eager to please maybe, though he has few faults. Mr. Woodhouse is delightful, he belongs to those characters that are very funny in fact most of the commicity of the novel lies at his side. Who is funnier? I think the scene when he thinks that Mr.K says that he is a pest is wonderful, right at the beginning and it is Emma who has to say "Mr.K meant me not you Papa".
What do you think about this idea? There are many scenes in the novel that are quite hilarious, can you think of any?

marta dijo...

Mercedes don´t feel so about mistakes it is quite fortunate to make them since if you become aware of them you can correct them if not it is impossible. It happens to me with the "le" and "lo" in Spanish until I went to Madrid I was never aware that I made that mistake, now I am trying to correct it and it is very difficult but now at least I hear that it is wrong, before not even that.
I look forward to reading your comment about the novel, don´t give that up, post post post that is a very good exercise!
Thank you both Clara and Mercedes for your interest in my father´s health.

Anónimo dijo...

Hi,
You are going very fast with your reading, I have read up to third chapter and I can say only that J.A. is describing some characters but until now any action doesn't happen, so I can't give my opinion.
Emma likes getting marry among people, but I think most of women try to get marries to people, if you know a collegue that she or he is alone and on the other hand you have a friend that she or he is alone too, you will try to put in contact between them, won't you?, I mean this is a normal practice. Are you agree?

Mercedes AV1C dijo...

I'am sorry.Anonimo is me

marta dijo...

Mercedes, Emma likes getting people married, but I think most women try to get people married.
It is the passive meaning that "get" has.
...and on the other hand you have a friend WHO... "that" is not relative you have to use a relative pronoun better.
I agree that most women like match-making, and let´s face it is a great help and very often it works, but in Emma´s case she goes further she plots and without no insight tries to get people matched according to her own wishes, likes and dislikes.It seems to me that Emma is somewhat pampered,she has to have her way and she thinks she is right the whole time. Do you think that a girl without a family and illegitimate child is a suitable match for a posh vicar and handsome too? Even today one sees that she has picked on the wrong candidate.
The way in which she meddles has no excuse whatsoever in my opinion, do you agree?
Which chapter are you reading? What I´m going to do is to have one of you every week talking about two or three chapters, you should be reading chapter 4 or 5, and you must look up and learn the new words, don´t forget!!

María. Av.1-D dijo...

Hello I am María and I would like to say that I just read the chapter II. It is almost everything about Mr. Weston and interesting man and now his life takes a complete change, he left his military life and married Miss Taylor, and now they are starting a new life together, though they have a problem but, I think it will be resolved by the time.

marta dijo...

María, I just read chapter 2 consider it as a proper noun, so we don´t write the article.
It is almost completely about Mr.W....They have a problem and it will be SOLVED.
María it is better if you give your opinion about Mr.W. Do not tell us what happened, we know it because we have read the chapter. To practise it is better to give your opinion. For eg. Is Mr W. your type of man? Why? Is he a well built character? What do you think of him? What good or bad points do you detect in his personality?
He seems to me a nice sort of man I think poor Miss Taylor has been very lucky to find him, he is prepared to please, he is easy-going he is settled very near the Woodhouses, so all this is suitable. He behaved well to his family and has suffered the loss of a son only because he thought he would lead a better life with his mother´s family. Do you agree?

María. Av-1 - D dijo...

Oh, of course I agre. I only want to write and I don´t know what to do.
Well Mr. Weston seems to be a good man, who have received a good education and he has a strong character because he have suffered with the died of his first wife, I think also he is a little stubborn because when he wanted to get married to his firs wife he had to fight to get her, but in spite of them, he never get angry and I think, Miss Taylor is going to be lucky to find him, though this happened, with helps from Emma.

marta dijo...

María, a good man who HAS... he HAS suffered with his first wife´s death. Though this happened with E´s help.
Do you think that Emma helped so much? Well she certainly said she did, but one wonders.... Emma is always saying that she is right about everything and what I think is that she has been too much made of!
Yes I agree that Mr.W is a good man, not so much with the fact that he is stubborn, I think it was his first wife who was more so, she would marry him at whatever cost, even the loss of family ties.
That´s a much better comment María but careful with your structure pattern always follow this S+V+O+A. And try and right simply, English is simple in structure, then when are more confident you can complicate it. Believe that is easy enough to do.

Mercedes AV1C dijo...

Marta,
I have reread the first chapter and I have found out interesting ideas, e.g.:
Emma is a self-confident person and she isn't busy so she has to make matchs as this is a pleasure to herself, like a job and even she thinks that she is bright to make that. So, Emma's life beside her bored father, what another thing could she do?.
I think the words from Mr. Knigthley are very accurate, when Emma insists making-matchs for Mr. Elton, and Mr. Knigl..says -"leave him to choose his own wife"-,she can cook a good dinner for Mr. Elton but he will be who decides as to find his wife.
Anyway, on the one hand she is happy because she gets match-making but the other hand she is sad because she is alone,Miss Taylor has gone and M. Kn. says that she has done more harm herself than good to them.
From my point of view Mr. kingthley has right when he tells her "make on your own business"

marta dijo...

Mercedes, Mr.K. IS right when he tells her mind your own business...
I think you mean ...her BORING father, as it the father who is boring not that something bores him.
I agree with you E is much less intelligent than Mr.K though she is quick, but she thinks a little too well of herself and she has had her own way too much, as is said on the very first page, she is self-willed and wants to have always her way. She thinks she is the best to choose for others and when Mr.K warns her she of course thinks, as usual, that she is right and he is wrong.
Austen´s men are often more intelligent than the women although the women are intelligent too not all of them, but I think that so far the most intelligent and worthy character is undoubtedly Mr.K.
Mr. W. is going to provide the commicity and he is rather stupid but good, he also tells E not to interfere though for other reasons, he is sort of selfish as he is always thinking of his health but well-meaning and kind which immediately excuses him in our eyes of his other faults, I think the way he goes on and on about poor Miss Taylor is delightful

Monica AV1C dijo...

I completely agree with you Marta. I think JA´men are very intelligent and here Mr.K is a very kind man too. I think he was the best for Emma. He knows she is a good girl, beautiful and clever, but he is trying to show her the best way to do things.
At the moment I'm reading till chapter 6, but I think that the relationship between E and Mr.K is more deep than we can see now, I mean, is Mr.K in love with E?

marta dijo...

Mónica don´t forget the S of the Saxon Genitive. I think he would be the best for Emma.
You point out an interesting idea, why do you think he is? Mr. K is 16years older than Emma at that time it was quite a difference as Mr.K is nearly 40, however I think so far he is the best man in the story. Mr. E is handsome but we can see deficiencies, he is a little bit of a sucker, excuse my language, but don´t you think so?
It is fantastic that you have read so many chapters but do not disclose the story we have to comment no more than what happens in those 6.
Mr.K seems too good to be true. Are men like that? This is what we have to talk about on the first day of class. I´m going to discuss the novel the whole lesson ok? So please bring ideas. This is your opportunity to write, the lesson your opportunity to talk. You have to make the most of both.

clara a1d dijo...

In my opinion, 16 are too many years of difference between a man and a woman, specially if the youngest is her, on one hand because men prefer to have a quiet and comfortable life since about their 50s, thing that doesn’t happen in women, and on the other hand, because when a woman is in her 40s and in the best part of her life, he is like an old man. Then the problems between them arise.
But it happens not only in this book but also in Jane Eire, Rebecca... it seems to be so common among people who are not the same social class, when man is from upper-class and woman is either middle or low class.
I don’t know why you think Mr k is a little bit of a sucker, is there anything I haven’t seen in him?
Generally speaking, men are so different than women that it’s impossible to see them as they really are, or say if they are like Mr k, ...Although I think we’ll learn something new about it in our next class. See you.

Anónimo dijo...

Emilia Av1C.
It's the first time I'm writing in a blog. Emma Woodhouse,handsome, clever and rich are the words that suggest me an interesting, long and pleasant reading. When I finished the first 6 chapters, I hope to write more interesting things.

Belén (Int 2 B) dijo...

Hi mates!! (or girls, because we are only girls posting here so far...)
First of all, I´m Belén from A1-D but I´ve not been able to change my last year identity, though I´ll keep trying.
Age Vs. Love! that´s an interesting topic. We talked about that last year with Carmen, do you remember it?From my point of view, we are not going to reach any agreement with it, all the opinions are valid. Let´s see what Emma says about age and manners: "The older a person grows, Harriet, the more important it is that their manners should not be bad". As far as manners are concerned, it was a very important quality during XIXth Century because is related and connected to behaviour, education and, sometimes, well-birth. Don´t you thing for Emma (as a society representation) this´s so much more important than age difference in order to find a good husband? Don´t you think that´s why she wants to match Harriet to Mr. Elton in stead of Robert Martin though the former is older than the latter? Despite age difference, love can arise; that fact shouldn´t be any hindrance getting happiness, being aware of our life is going to be tough sometimes from then on, mainly nowadays.
By the way, anybody knows the ages of Marianne Dashwood and Colonel Brandon from Sense & Sensibility? That´s another example about this from J.A.´s novel.

Isidro dijo...

In my opinion: poor Emma! She is handsome, beautiful, and rich, but I wonder if she will be disappointed and unhappy and will make unhappy other people, because of her wish to make the world turn according to his will.
I believe that only a pampered, boring person can consider the greatest amusement in the world to play with the life of ather people. It's a very risky game.

marta dijo...

Clara, specially if SHE is the younger of the two.
I think you are wrong when yuo say that Jane Eyre or Emma or Rebeca are from a different social class than their husbands. They are poor that is true but not so differently socially, in Emma´s case she is exactly Mr.K´s equal as is proved also by their kin´s marriage.
It is normal for men to marry younger women isn´t it? It happens today continuously. It is not normal for a woman to marry a younger man, in fact those who do appear in the paper, it is not so common. Why is it?

marta dijo...

Emilia when I finish, as you are still reading it can´t be past! I´m sure you´ll enjoy the novel.
Belén, because IT is related, don´t forget the subject it is the most important thing!....any hindrance for getting...
You point out interesting things about age and love, I don´t agree that E wants H to marry Mr.E because he is older both Mr.M and him are in their twenties, E wants her to marry Mr.E for social reasons only, Mr. M according to her is not in society he is not a gentleman.

marta dijo...

Isidro, hi you are the first "boy" to post that is fantastic,..she will make other people unhappy... follow the order in English it is very important.
...the world turn according to HER will, careful with those slips!
I agree with you that it is risky but not on the fact that people have to be boring to do that. I think quite the contrary it makes them feel like God if they are able to dominate the rest and impose their will. There are many examples of that in History, Literature and life in general.
Dominating the rest and making them do what you want is a human trait and happens often.
What do the rest say it is an interesting topic to discuss

Laura de Arriba A1S dijo...

My opinion, as far as I've read, is that Emma seems to have such an insubstantial life that she confuses her will of doing everything well and attentively with meddling in everybody's life. Not only she "made" the match between Miss Taylor and Mr Weston, but also she wants to chage Miss Smith's friends, opinions and manners: does she think she is right the whole time? I definitely reckon she is pretty naive.

Reyes dijo...

Emma is a beautiful and intellectual girl who is the mistress of her father´s house since Isabella got married, so she is very mature for her age, but on the other hand Emma has a strong imagination, and she is very romantic.....she loves "matchmaking" and "gossip" and that´s why in many ocassions she invents romances or affairs where it doesn´t exist; many times she makes mistakes because she has the conviction that she is always right and she is in possession of truth.

She doesn´t realize of the consecuences of her actions, she always does what she wants. I think she is a little bit "spoiled woman" for the age of 21s. I don´t think she has an insubstantial life and she is happy like that.

This behavior is very common nowaday, too. It´s a current issue.

Carlos a1s dijo...

It is the first time I write in a blog and of course give my modest opinion about a novel.
Sorry for my mistakes and writing style that though is better than when I speak (I have no practiced English for 25 years).
In reading chapter III, I have found a person who bring me back memories of my youth, she is the single daughter of Mrs. Bates, the "eternal maiden aunt", someone that it is posible to find in a small town and to whom everyone adore, she loves every body and only think in doing good por oters and hever thinks of herself.
In short an anonymous person, I mean that not shines like a star but necessary to give peace and tranquility, as some nuns in hospitals.

Anónimo dijo...

I disagre with Reyes. I think Emma is not a romantic girl. She thinks a little well about herself and she thinks always is right and the others are wrong. She is able to work hard to get something because she loves to be succesfull in everything.

María. Av.1-D dijo...

I´m sorry I would like to say that I am María the person who has written "Anonimo"

Reyes dijo...

This morning I have finished chapter 5 and I have discovered something else about Emma. I think she is a little bit "snob". In chapter 4 when she is speaking with Harriet Smith she criticizes Mr. Martin because he is a farmer and he is compared with Mr. Elton by Emma about his qualities and good manners.

I think Emma does not like to be associated with people of lower class. Well, actually, sometimes she keeps a relation with these people, but just for improving and teaching them. Like a "pigmalion". I think, don´t you???.

So , she decides Mr.Elton is a better match than Mr.Martin for Harriet Smith and he is better for driving Mr. Martin out of Harriet´s head (page 27.).

Very interensting the Emma´s character.

cesar dijo...

MR.WOODHOUSE.
It is possible that Mr.Woodhouse, after his wife`s death, turned into a careless man especially about his health.
He was affecionate, indulgent toward everybody,although he shoulden`t have been so indulgent with his daughter, very attached to his friends and very close to his governess.
He tended to get depressed and that will probably be what led him to be a home-loving.

marta dijo...

Laura, not only does she make.. it is an inversion with a negative adv. I agree that E meddles, but do you think she made the match or is she giving herself all the credit for something that she didn´t do?? I think she thinks so well of herself that she thinks she did the match and then she is so full of it that now she wants to meddle with Harriet´s life.
She is domineering.

marta dijo...

Carlos, don´t forget the subject,though IT is better than when I speak, and well done for writing you will notice how you improve.
A person who bringS,everyone adoreS, careful with the 3rd pers. ...someone who, not "that it is possible..." a person that DOES NOT shine. You need the aux for negatives.
Very true Miss Bates who is poor on top. There is no village or story without the spinster, the figure has now disappeared it is no longer the same now they are single, don´t you think?
María, she thinks she is right. Every verb must have its subject don´t omit it ok?
You are not flaterring our heroine with what you say, she is always right and the others are wrong, well to be like that is quite horrible!!! What can be worse? I´m sure that Hitler thought the same..

marta dijo...

Reyes, a little snobish, you want the adj. Emma´s character, proper nouns don´t take the art.
Yes Emma is a snob, but her error of judgement is worse because she thinks that Mr. Elton is not going to object to an illegitimate child, what do you think, is he?
Caesar,not a bad sketch of Mr. W´s personality, but why do you say that he became careless after his wife´s death? I don´t think he was careless he is good-hearted and does not see the bad in others, he is permissive with everybody specially Emma, a bit of a simpleton but good, the best thing for me is that he is going to make us laugh the whole novel through he is the funny element. For me it is also funny that he has many qualities that are often associated with women like non-existant health problems

marta dijo...

Reyes, a little snobish, you want the adj. Emma´s character, proper nouns don´t take the art.
Yes Emma is a snob, but her error of judgement is worse because she thinks that Mr. Elton is not going to object to an illegitimate child, what do you think, is he?
Caesar,not a bad sketch of Mr. W´s personality, but why do you say that he became careless after his wife´s death? I don´t think he was careless he is good-hearted and does not see the bad in others, he is permissive with everybody specially Emma, a bit of a simpleton but good, the best thing for me is that he is going to make us laugh the whole novel through he is the funny element. For me it is also funny that he has many qualities that are often associated with women like non-existant health problems

Carmen Segura dijo...

I want to give you thanks in advance for this blog and i hope to be brave enough and win my shyness to write.
I am sorry I was not able to go to Friday class but I had familiar duties in the All Soul’s Day.
I would like to give some opinions about the novel.
There is a character who nobody speaks about.
Hi is Mr. Woodhouse. He is kind and very friendly and loves his family and friends.
He has problems to assume that life goes by and his daughters leave his home.
He inspires me tenderness because at the same time he is humble and accepts that he could be fanciful and troublesome –perhaps pest-.
I enjoyed reading the chapter 3.
Mr. Woodhouse likes friends to visit him on his own terms. I think this is a very common sentiment when people get older.
On the other hand I have found very accurate and full of criticism the description of Mrs.Goddard’s School. I think that nowadays some private Schools are very similar – schools where parents pay enormous amount of money and children do not receive a great education.
At the same time the author criticizes the schools with little education, without any danger of coming back prodigious.
The education is always difficult even with good intentions.

Carmen Av1-D dijo...

Marta asks our opinion about Emma’s attitude to marriage.
Emma does not want to marry and I think this sentiment is natural if she does not find the true love.
It remains me the last film I saw. “500 days of summer”
The moral of the film is that when the true love appears in your life all your being wants commitment forever.
On the contrary something is wrong in a relationship if one in a couple does not want to get engaged.
I think that the true love has vocation of eternity and it unites the couple forever.
Therefore Emma does not find the love of her life and it could be difficult for her because she is proud and vain and wants the perfect man.
I recommend you the film.

Mercedes AVC1D dijo...

I think, Emma doesn't want to marry no because she can't find a true love but because she simply isn't looking for it, she chooses to live beside her father and she enjoys matchmaking with her neighbours, she makes her life trough these things, and she is very self-confident and spoil, she fights to destroy the image of anyone or to ennoble as she pleases, she thinks that she has on her hands the future the others, from my point of view she is manipulating to people,she is proud because she normally to get about she wants

Belén A1d dijo...

Honestly, I don´t think E. is that manipulative. She doesn´t change anybody´s life. As M.K. says, she just introduces a woman to a man or the other way round and the couple decides the rest. Manipulating means time, effort and the fact that the manipulative person benefits from the manipulated couple; it does not seem E. take advantage of that new relationship or even marriage.

marta dijo...

Carmen a very interesting comment,E is still young and probably she will find some love or other, if Emma does not find a love what is the novel going to be about??
I wonder about the film... true love means commitment? Sometimes it doesn´t sometimes you love dearly but commitment is not possible for whatever circumstance...What do the others say??

marta dijo...

Mercedes,she is proud because she normally gets what she wants.
Belén I think she does a little bit more than that specially regarding Harriet and Mr.Martin, there it is not merely an introduction

Carmen Segura dijo...

Belen, do you think that Emma is not manipulative?
Please read chapter 4.
She speaks very badly of Mr.Martin and said that he is very plain, farmer without gentility and air.
She wants Harried forget Mr. Matin. I think this is a manipulative behaviour.

Mercedes I agree with you. Emma likes her life at this moment and she does not want to marry.
But I am sure that things can change for her in the moment that she falls in love.

Carmen Segura dijo...

Marta I agree with you. Sometimes the commitment is impossible for circumstances.
But my reflexion and the moral in the film is when the circumstances are good but the person has inconsistent doubts .

Belén A1d dijo...

Carmen, I did read chapter 4.
Harriet is a different situation, her possible marriage is not just another match. E. has spent time "educating" her following what she thinks it´s right, therefore, learning to choose the proper husband is part of her change proces.

SOSIAS dijo...

Hi everybody! I'm Antonio (AV 1B) and this is my first post.

First, I'd like to say I don't know very well Jane Austen, I've never read any of her books so, I guess, it's going to be a challenge starting in English.

Talking about the novel, I'm finishing chapter IV and I have the impresion that this is a book of characters and their thoughts, feelings... are going to be very important, but maybe it's soon to say that.

marta dijo...

Carmen, ok.
Belén,what she thinks is right, the subject is what he thinks,ok? I agree that the choice of husband is part of her learning process but that process is wrong as far as I can see. Emma is blind by her own vanity that makes her think that she is right.
Sosias, I don´t know J Austen very well. The adv at the end ok?
You are right feelings are important in the novel and also customs

SOSIAS dijo...

Ok, Marta thanks.

I have finished Chapter IV and, Reyes, do you think Emma is only a bit snob?

I think she is very classist. In this chapter, she is really mean with Mr. Martin and the principal reason is because he is a farmer.

Antonio (AV 1B)

Manolo dijo...

Hello guys, I've found this page in the Internet. Here you have all the audio files of the novel sorted by chapters. The quality is really good. I've already put them in my mobile's memory in order to listen to the book anywhere.

Manolo (AV1B)

Ana AV1S dijo...

Hello my dears classmates!
I'm so happy to find some of you here since we aren't in the same group any more!
This is my first post this year and taking into consideratioin what I've read so far I'm arriving late to this interesting discussion about the novel's characters!

In my opinion Emma is the typical example for a spoiled girl of the high society with a remarkable tendence to act in an egocentric way, which may be increased by the early lost of her mother. This fact and the following marriage of the other feminine figure of the family (her sister) has put her in the center of the little universe of Highbury. Regarding this last I find the introduction to the definition of the village is just brilliant! I could even risk to say the authoress uses a bit of irony in it. (quote: "Highbury, the large and populous village almost amounting to a town, (...)" end quote.)

Another interesting topic would be to discuss if the characters shown can be directly extrapolated to nowadays. At first sight Emma's role can seem to be old-fashioned, but I think it isn't if we let our (positive) prejudices against the role of women in actual society. This summer I read "Jane Eyre" and I cannot avoid to compare Emma to this other important feminine protagonist in English 19th century's literature. We can observe that their attitudes towards life and so the significance of their story until the present days are strongly different. Even so both of them irradiate enormous power in their own personal circle, a fact which obligates us to rethink about the convinience of taking part of our environment in one or other way.

Ana AV1S dijo...

Thank you very much for the mp3, Manolo! They are great!

mercedes m. dijo...

Hello Marta, I am an ex-EOI, I am reading Emma and I would like to write my comments in the blog I suppose that it will not be a problem, tell me please. I have just read chapter 3 and in my opinion Emma has a character very common in English 19th century and we can see that it continues actually. I know some women that acts in the same way that Emma, it is very funny because I realize now when I am reading the book. Jane Austen is a very good writer because all her characters are interesting and show us customs and feelings in that period of time, we can imagine many things. Thanks for the opportunity in continuing writting in the blog. Sorry about mistakes and kind regards for you and your sister.
Kind regards.

Belén A1d dijo...

Manolo!!Hi, again! thanks a lot for your contribution. I´m not able to download it, I hear it directly by internet.However,the reader´s accent is american, isn´t it?

Manolo dijo...

Ana, you are right, Emma is a spoiled and egocentric girl. This could be an issue of high society those days, but what is really sad is that nowadays most children and teenagers are being educated in this manner.
Take a look around and observe this issue. We, parents and relatives are educating children giving them all kind of whims and forgiving them every bad action, arent we?

Manolo dijo...

Belen: yeah, she sounds American but she reads slowly and pronounces very clear making you catch almost everything. She seems an English teacher :-)

BTW, to download the files you have to push your mouse's right button and select the option save link as..., it depends on the browser your are using.

Reyes dijo...

I have just read the comments on the blog and I think all of them are very interesting...... I agree with some of yours opinions.

I think Emma is a very interesting and particular character.She represents a really critic to Victorian society and she envolves the best and the poorest of high class.

I agree with Ana, we can extrapolate to nowadays all the characters fron this novel, beacuse the feelings, things we hate... how we criticize everything...actions , people, way of life etc.....

A little bit??? Yes Antonio, you are right. Emma is not a "bit". Everything what Emma does and says... is very "big". That´s why she thinks she is perfect.

There´s no measure in her.

Ana AV1S dijo...

Dear Reyes, I think the problem with Emma is that she didn't read "Measure for measure" as we did :)
Now seriously, I agree with both of you, Antonio and you. I've just read chapter 4 and I was really shocked by the way Emma dares to talk to people she considers inferior, in this case to Miss Smith. Living in a tender pink bubble creates monsters with such a high self-esteem -and almost automatically contempt for many others, specially for those who are different!

At that point I would like to link this thought with Manolo's commentary: Educators of all around the world, be aware of the future (ir)responsibles you are bringing up!

Isidro dijo...

I think that the visit of Mr Frank to his father and his new mother can be the beginning of a good relationship between them. And in this case, I also believe that this visit, after his “handsome” letter to Mrs Weston, can produce a negative reaction on his capricious aunt.
Mr. Weston’s nature can’t imagine any consequence at all, bat I don’t trust in Mrs Churchill, do you?
Thanks for your link.

Isidro dijo...

I'm sorry. My thanks are to Manolo for his contribution.

marta dijo...

Manolo what you have found is fantastic and that you have put it on the blog, so please everyone download it.
I´m glad to see an ex-student commenting with us welcome.
Please continue posting I think all your comments are interesting, and I will go into them more deeply on Monday when I come back from Port, where I´m going this long-weekend.
Continue posting because the more you write the better.
And there is a thought for you, what kind of society do we see? What were the English like in the 19th century?

clara A1 dijo...

hi everybody,
after we were talking about Emma in class yesterday I realized that Jane Austen doesn't describe the village, the houses, the landscapes,... you have to imagine where they live. I think it might be because she doesn't mind the set, she only wants to show us what her characters are like, their relationships, and so on.
I think, as we said yesterday, and according to the authoress, that in the 19th century the society was divided into so well defined classes, upper, middle and low-class, in chapters that we haven't read in class yet, we can see them.
But, up to now we can see upper-class people and those who live near them, and want to belong that group of people. It's like nowadays, everybody wants to join what they think are 'the best'.

Carmen Segura dijo...

In the last class we spoke about Emma.
It was interesting to appreciate the difference between Anglican culture and Catholic culture.
In Anglican culture by the influence of Protestantism to be rich is like a blessing of God so it is usual that vicars belong to upper class.
In our culture on the contrary if a priest is rich it is a bad thing because is more important the austere life and to be generous with poor people.

On the other hand Emma continues manipulating the heart of Harriet.
He wants Harriet to fall in love with Mr. Elton and she does not scruple even speaking badly and cruelly from Mr. Martin. She said – “he is very plain… completely gross, vulgar farmer, totally inattentive to appearances, and thinking of nothing but profit and loss”

Mercedes AVC1D dijo...

Hi everybody,
I think Emma is a cruel person to Harriet, it is sad to read how Emma tries to turn Harriet towards Mr. Elton and she ought reject Mr. Martin's proposal of marry.
I can see Harriet's happiness when she receives Mr. Martin's letter and Emma persuades her that it isn't good for her. Emma is a manipulative person that she is playing with Harriet's feeling and her life, but Emma can decide herself she never will fall in love, of course, she chooses live with other loves that she makes and breaks.
On the other hand, Emma thinks the most important thing in the life is the social class and she takes this subject by blackmailing to Harriet and so to get her target

María. Av.1 - D dijo...

Hi everybody
I think Harriet is facinated by the upper class and the way in which people live in this society, and Emma takes advantage of this situation, because Harriet is very young, although I think Emma wants Harriet becomes a little better that she is now.

clara a 1 d dijo...

I agree with you all when you criticize Emma, in my opinion she’s the kind of person who does whatever she likes just because she can, it doesn’t matter what the other people can feel after her manipulation of their feelings. And she can do it because of her position in society. She’s doing wrong, and the only person who tells her the truth about her behavior is Mr. knightley, who could do the same as Emma but he doesn’t.
In chapter five, there’s a little argument between Mrs. Weston, the former Emma’s governess, and Mr. knightley about Harriet an Emma’s relationship. Here, he explains the reasons why he doesn’t like this relationship, first of all because Harriet doesn’t have enough knowledge to enrich Emma and because of her birth, and she’s so grateful with Emma that she flatters too much her, and this is so bad for Emma, as she’s the cleverest in her family and has had no one who could stop her in her taking decisions, it might increase her vanity, and this could be bad for her, especially yesteryear, in the 18th century. And for Harriet is a bad relationship because nobody knows who their parents are, and in that days people don’t forget that, she has to pay for what her parents have done. After being in that society she couldn’t go back to hers. This subject is deal with ‘My Fair Lady’, well, but in a different sense.

clara a 1 d dijo...

I agree with you all when you criticize Emma, in my opinion she’s the kind of person who does whatever she likes just because she can, it doesn’t matter what the other people can feel after her manipulation of their feelings. And she can do it because of her position in society. She’s doing wrong, and the only person who tells her the truth about her behavior is Mr. knightley, who could do the same as Emma but he doesn’t.
In chapter five, there’s a little argument between Mrs. Weston, the former Emma’s governess, and Mr. knightley about Harriet an Emma’s relationship. Here, he explains the reasons why he doesn’t like this relationship, first of all because Harriet doesn’t have enough knowledge to enrich Emma and because of her birth, and she’s so grateful with Emma that she flatters too much her, and this is so bad for Emma, as she’s the cleverest in her family and has had no one who could stop her in her taking decisions, it might increase her vanity, and this could be bad for her, especially yesteryear, in the 18th century. And for Harriet is a bad relationship because nobody knows who their parents are, and in that days people don’t forget that, she has to pay for what her parents have done. After being in that society she couldn’t go back to hers. This subject is deal with ‘My Fair Lady’, well, but in a different sense.

clara a 1 d dijo...

I agree with you all when you criticize Emma, in my opinion she’s the kind of person who does whatever she likes just because she can, it doesn’t matter what the other people can feel after her manipulation of their feelings. And she can do it because of her position in society. She’s doing wrong, and the only person who tells her the truth about her behavior is Mr. knightley, who could do the same as Emma but he doesn’t.
In chapter five, there’s a little argument between Mrs. Weston, the former Emma’s governess, and Mr. knightley about Harriet an Emma’s relationship. Here, he explains the reasons why he doesn’t like this relationship, first of all because Harriet doesn’t have enough knowledge to enrich Emma and because of her birth, and she’s so grateful with Emma that she flatters too much her, and this is so bad for Emma, as she’s the cleverest in her family and has had no one who could stop her in her taking decisions, it might increase her vanity, and this could be bad for her, especially yesteryear, in the 18th century. And for Harriet is a bad relationship because nobody knows who their parents are, and in that days people don’t forget that, she has to pay for what her parents have done. After being in that society she couldn’t go back to hers. This subject is deal with ‘My Fair Lady’, well, but in a different sense.

clara dijo...

Sorry,I don't know why my post has been published more than once.

Rosa A1S dijo...

Manolo I appreciate very much your help with the page of the audio-book.
On the other hand I agree with all of you with the idea of English society in the 19th century was a very conscious-class society, nobody was afford to chage the level which had by born in any way.

Mª AV1-s dijo...

Hi,
I´m María from AV1-S.
I've just read your comments and I'd like to give my point of view.
In my opinion in the 19th century, the sociaty was classist, even it is still now, but then it wasn't bad thought of.
Some of you say that Emma doesn't want Harriet gets married with Mr. Martin because he is a farmer. But Emma, as Harriet's friend, likes that she improves her social position, and for taht reason she "manipulates" Harriet, because she realises that a good match is the only way of improvement. I agree that Emma plays with Harriet, but Harriet should have been more confident about her own feelings.
Additionaly, Mr Nightley sees this match as the better for Harriet's status.
So, from my view, Emma is less classist than other characters.

marta dijo...

I´ve read all the comments and a very pleased with them on the whole they are good and well-written, Mª be careful"E doesn´t want H to get married" Inf after want.
I do think that E. is spoilt and it is Mr.K who sees it, poor Miss.T can´t see any blemish in her out of love, which brings me to Manuel´s point: what are we doing with our children nowadays? We are spoiling them to limits never reached before, E had respect for her elders, neighbours, etc. Now what do teenagers respect?
I do think her attitude to poor Mr Martin is terrible and even to H. I think she does like him! E has to have her way!
What do you imagine Mr. Frank Churchill is going to be like??
Please continue posting it is very good for your English

Isidro dijo...

I believe that Harriet is becoming a Little conceited by the influence of Emma. She is beginning to think she owns to a higher status. I’m sure that Harriet by herself, without the influence of Emma, would be delighted to get married with Mr Martin. I agree with Mr Knightley when he says that Harriet cannot gain by the acquaintance with Emma. I think that Harriet will be very disappointed if her wishes doesn’t realize. Don’t you?

Laura de Arriba A1S dijo...

If you have already read the chapter 7, you will have found what a cynical Emma could become. I cannot believe what she says to Harriet about Mr. Martin’s proposal of marriage. Emma says to Mss. Smith that she does not want to influence her decision. She is lying; she wants to move Mr. Martin away because, according to her opinion and plans, he is not suitable for her. He is a coarse lower-class man... that, who knows, could make Harriet happier than Mr. Elton.

Belén A1d dijo...

Happiness,as a concept, from my point of view, had a different meaning then to it has nowadays. If you mean "happier" because of their falling in love, Harriet might be better with Mr.Martin as you´ve said. But love is no more the main point to consider, even more after Emma´s "lessons". Therefore, as Harriet is intent upon belonging to the upper-class, love is not enough because her aspirations have changed since then on. She can gain "the new hapinnes version" near Mr. Elton, an educated and well possitioned man, very easily.

Reyes dijo...

I have just read chapter 7 and I am amazed of.... ¡¡¡how manipulative and machiavellian can be a woman!!!!. I agree with Laura, in this chapter Emma shows us her cynicism and hypocrisy in the way of handling the situation with Harriet about Mr. Martin´s proposal of marriage.

About the way of acting and behaving ....... is Emma as different as women of nowadays?????

I discover in her many women with that I turn around myself every day.

Isidro dijo...

In my opinion, Harriet is manipulated by Emma, who is trying to convince her that Mr Elton is interested in her. As we know, Emma has indeavoured a target and manipulate all to achieve it. However, I believe that she can manipulates Harriet, but she won be able to manipulate Mr Elton. In my opinion, there is a calculated ambiguity in all the declarations of Mr Elton, as for example, the flatteries about the likeness of Harriet. And Emma uses this ambiguity to support her preconceived idea. In my view, the flatteries of Mr Elton about the likeness of Harriet aren’t to Harriet but to Emma. And when in chapter nine Mr. Elton give a "charade” to Emma, she make Harriet think that he had made it for her. But, in my opinion, Mr Elton is interested in Emma not in Harriet. So, I consider that finally when the misunderstanding is clarified, them all: Emma, Harriet and Mr Elton will suffer very much.

Mercedes AVC1D dijo...

I don't agree with you Reyes.
Nowdays, Women or men could be manipulative but never like E with H., because in this moment we have the most important thing in the life of anybody that is the economy, the post of job, and today it is possible to dominated other people but never like that.
I believe people are conscious they have their own rights and it is difficult to allow another person to shatter you because you need to enter upper-class, like Harriet, there is bear in mind Harriet is poor and she is an illegitima daughter, so she has the whole elements to be manipulated.
I think Jane A. intends to draw our attention to these characters so definite, one of them is manipulative and the other of them is so permissive

marta dijo...

Isidro, she belongs to ...I agree with you she is going to do something very silly because I also think that she likes him and he is great.
Ladies, you are quite right about Emma, she is at her worst here, how can she be so blind and self-willed? She is only thinking of her wishes not of Harriet´s or the poor man´s.
Isidro, don´t forget the s in manipulates and gives, and don´t put it after CAN, after a modal verb comes the inf without to.
You are right I´m afraid it is plain obvious that he is not interested in H. He is after Emma, she is blind which doesn´t speak well for her insight and all this sight that she boasts she has.

marta dijo...

Mercedes, I don´t see much difference in the way we act today, I believe people some not all want to get into good society and they will do anything to achieve it.
I don´t think that Harriet is desperate to get into good society, she is just glad that E pays her so much attention and does everything to please her. Before E´s interference she was very happy with the Martins, she always speaks well about them.
I also think that people still want to dominate others today just like in those times, that has not changed in my opinion, one bit.

clara dijo...

I agree with the idea in which Harriet is supposed to be happy with her own life, but it’s quite important for her to be loved by as much people as possible, as everybody does. It hasn’t been changed since yesteryear. So she leaves Emma to do what she wants, including her own manipulation, and as Belen says, love is not the most important thing, money and get into good society are so important that she could change her mind, but feelings are not easy to put aside. I’ve reached the conclusion, because I’ve already read many chapters, that Harriet knows Emma is trying to change her mind. Who knows if she’ll take the right decision in the end.
I suggest that everybody analyze in chapter six how is Emma trying to encouraging Mr Elton to look at Harriet, and how is he speaking about her, but he’s flattering Emma, who seems not to realizes it, in this paragraph too.

Ana AV1S dijo...

I am glad to read in the last posts that Harriet is also object of our analysis. That was what I was thinking of today as we ended our class. We all agree with the fact that Emma is manipulating her, of course, but Harriet is also a thinking-being and as such she has the choice to follow Emma's willings or not.

Clara, I'm not as far as you reading the story but I'm looking forward to discover how these just introduced relationships between the characters turn. One of the nuances I like most of the rythm of the narration is the subtle development of the personalities of the characters, because we can't really talk about an exciting action in this novel - at least until now! In my opinion this apparently quiet mood by expressing some strong thoughts, as for example Emma telling Harriet Mr. Martin won't be an appropiate husband, is also characteristic of many members of the high society. And this soft saying inconvenient things is definitely the same nowadays!

Mª AV 1-S dijo...

Hi,
In chapters 6 and 7 we realise that Emma doesn't say anything by chance and that she thinks she is taking people where she wants to, as if they were puppets.
But, I'd remark that it's shown in a very funny way. Chapter 6 is full of humour and also it's the begining of chapter 7, in which Jane Austen even becomes to make us laugh at Emma's "cruel" words, and her "master plan".
Apart from her obvious manipulation, in my opinion she gives Harriet a very good advise about Mr Martin's purpose, if you doubt, don't get married.
Returning to the chapters, I insist that we should notice the comedy side of the novel.

marta dijo...

Clara, money and getting into good society. You have used the subjunctive very well but the infinitive in the following line has an S, careful the inf never has an S.
Yes it is true that Emma doesn´t realise who Mr.Elton is after, she is not so clever! Don´t you think that it is very easy to see yourself as clever and very difficult to see yourself as you really are??
It is very very difficult to know how one is.
Ana I´m looking forward to discovering, gerund after prep.
I couldn´t agree more with you, the manipulation is done continuously and not only in the best circles, I think in all of them, parents think that they know best and very often regarding marriages they do. Do you know that the most successful marriages are the agreed ones? With limits, I think parents see much better who would suit their child, but Emma is too young and thinks a lot of herself so she is biased.

marta dijo...

María, don´t you think that it is normal to doubt? I´m sure that I would. It is a very important decision and one can think oh!my God is this going to work??
Harriet doubts everything because she weak and E takes advantage of that.
I think there are a lot of funny scenes and passages and irony in the novel, but the passage where Emma convinces H is cruel rather than funny. Harriet is really sorry or so it seems and Emma exultant to have done in the wedding!
Careful with the structure, and also the beginnig of ch7

Isidro dijo...

Mª AV1-S, I would agree with you if Emma were impartial, but we know that it isn’t the case. I agree with Marta when she say that it’s normal to doubt, and more in this case in which Emma has set a trap to her friend. Emma knows that her friend doubts not only because it is normal to doubt, but because she has introduced the doubt in Harriet’s mind. We can’t forget that Emma has told her in chapter IV that Mr Martin is a very clowny man, totally without air, awkward look, abrupt manner. As well she has compared Mr Martin’s entire want of gentility with Mr Knightley, Mr Weston and Mr Elton. And if that weren’t enough, Emma has made believe Harriet that Mr Eliot is interested in her.
After all this, Emma knows that Harriet’s mind is puzzled. So, when she says to Harriet that if she doubts don’t get married, she knows in advance Harriet’s answer. Emma wants Harriet to think she doesn’t influence in the decision, and she now makes like she were impartial, but the manipulation had been done before.

marta dijo...

Isidro, when she sayS, E has made H believe. E now ACTS as if she were impartial...
A very good comment and well written too on the whole. I agree with you E has done the manipulation before she has all the blame. Poor H is stupid, we have to admit but E knows that too and she doesn´t care. I think she is at her worst here.
When one meddles with people that are not strong-minded one has to be very careful, it doesn´t matter whether it is love or drugs, the weak ones are always induced and they finally ruin their lives whereas the domineering find a way out and their lives are fine, then they leave the weak alone to continue with their life and solitude.
It is a dangerous game but they don´t give a damn as to whose life they ruin.
I dislike this kind of person tremendously

Mª AV1-S dijo...

Marta and Isidro, I completely agree with your opinion.
I also think that Emma is behind Harriet's doubts. She has been always encouraging H to forget Mr Martin -she doesn't care how-, and to think about Mr Elton.
But, although Emma does it in a subtle way sometimes, she has been very clear about what she thinks of Mr Martin. Then, H should have known her opinion yet. Why does she ask for advise?
We are in front of two very different women. One smart, with
"good intentions" but manipulative, and the other without own criteria, poor and looking up to Emma.
In these way I see these characters, which is good to argue about them. But, I don't like neither of them, one for being very simple - without criteria-, and the other for interfering in other people's life.

Carlos A1S dijo...

Hello; just a moment ago I not planned to write any word about Emma, I was only reading chapter 6 and 7.
I am amazed by Emma´s caracter and behavior
How it is possible she had told Mr. Elton that she had given Harriet a little more decision of character? ¡Harriet has no desision of character at all¡. She looks plain and with no personality; in other hand ... Emma, that is a pharisee, evil, proud an haughty person, she has been able to play again with Harriet´s happiness and feeling nothing.

Carlos A1S dijo...

Sorry. " I did not plan...

Carmen Segura dijo...

Marta asks us an interesting question. What are we doing with our children nowadays?
I have noticed many times among parents the same behaviour with their children as Emma with Harriet.
For instance, when parents are going to choose school for their children they prefer that school be very cool in education, in manner, and in good people.
Nobody wants immigrants or other people with less cultural level. On the contrary nobody looks down to rich children.
On the other hand I think that high society is always attractive and can be a temptation to do things to enter in.
This attraction can be used by people, politics, teachers, …. in a bad way and weak characters can be driven into doubts.
All we are in danger, sometimes being manipulated and other times trying that other do what we want because every person thinks to be in the truth.
The defects are carried on the back, so we can see the defects from others but not ourselves.
Emma is a good example. She always thinks she is right. But it is possible she will not be able to manipulate Mr.Elton because sometimes love cannot be dominated.

marta dijo...

María, I don´t like either of them.
Yes it is true that H is easy to manipulate, but her case is not so unusual, there are many people who manipulate others and there are many who let others manipulate them.

marta dijo...

Carlos you are going to make good Austen´s comment. "a heroine who nobody but myself will like" when she was writing Emma, that is how she defined her.
Aren´t you a little too hard??? I do think she is at her worst here, but let´s face it H is very simple too as Mr.K says in his speech beginnig.."not good enough for her..."
You must bear in mind that E is blind and she thinks she is being really good, that she is helping her friend to a better future.

marta dijo...

Carmen, they prefer the school to be..,nobody looks down on rich...,we are all, or all of us are....
Very interesting ideas, the higher classes have always an allure, the allure of what is out of reach what we want because we think that they are happier just because they have everything. But when you are a little older or very intelligent, you realise that that is not true.
I think that of course, it is not bad to mix with the rich, but intelligent parents want their children to be with children that are like theirs. What´s the good of mixing with the rich if you can´t do the same things? It will only give the children an inferiority complex, don´t you think, it´s true??

Mercedes AV1 D dijo...

I would like to tell Carmen some points of view from my opinion:
First of all I see E. like self-centred person, she tries to persuade H.that Mr. Martin is not enough good to her because he belongs low society class and she deserves somebody better than Mr. Martin, but in her mind she needs to manage H. who does what E wants to get.
I don't think E wants to get a position into society for H, no, I believe E. is moving her own selfish, H. has to do what E wants to.
People sometimes do things by thinking that with their actions are by helping other people but in short they do it in base their own selfish wishes.
I know parents always want to best to their children, but do you think that there are parents not only think to get best for their children but also their own themselves?, because they would like their descendents would have better position than they in the future?,

marta dijo...

Mercedes, good enough for..,he belongs to...,who does what E wants..., best for their children,..some parents want the best for their children and also for themselves? Because they would like their descendants to have a better...,
I think you are right, some parents want their children´s benefit and theirs too.
But I think that E truly wants H to make a good match the fact that she doesn´t see Mr. M as a good match shows that she is blind, Mr. K tells her that, I do think she means well that is her excuse if you can excuse her.

María- Adv. 1-D dijo...

I believe that Mr. Knightley get angry with Emma because he pretends the best for her and he doesn´t like how Emma speaks of Mr. Martin becuase he knows that Mr. Martin is a succesful farmer and a good match for Harriet.

marta dijo...

María, gets angry..., the way in which Emma speaks....
Mr.K is very right in being angry he is exasperated by Emma´s blindness and meddling, I think he is the cleverest person in the novel so far, do you agree?
I see no sentences with the subjunctive come on experience with it!

Ana AV1S dijo...

Tonight I'm glad to read what Marta writes about Austen's own commentary about Emma.I was thinking of the same by reading the comments before, and I hope this disagreeable feeling towards Emma will change with the still coming action! Maybe if Emma were just a little humble, or if she had any common, even vulgar defect, we would find her more sympathetic!

We have already get to know some of her weak points, as for example not being able to finish tasks which mean intellectual effort. Even so there seems to be no one of her companions excepting Mr. K who notice that also handsome, young and rich ladies have to learn to behave following the "good way".

In relation to this last topic I am also surprised of Mr. Elton's behaviour his being a vicar! Perhaps his somehow superficial way -at least that is what he has showed until now- is grounded on the differences between protestantism and catholicism which one of my mates noted some days ago. In addition, considering him just like one more member of the male genre I am convinced that he is in love with Emma and not with Harriet. This misunderstand may cause some "inconvenient" things in the next chapters, if regarded from Emma's point of view!

Laura de Arriba A1-S dijo...

Along the reading, I start to understand what marriage means to Emma and her reasons for not to marry in any time. She is not like Harriet; she does not need any man to get consideration, independence, a proper home and to be the centre of her friends. She has already had all these goods. She is not afraid of getting old alone in a society in which a single old woman is a miserable human being, especially if she has not a good fortune. However, Emma has a very good fortune, and for that reason she will not be miserable but respectable. On the other hand, she reckons it is almost impossible to find such a superior man (and she wishes never to find him, because in that case she would be tempted...) that, besides, admires her as deeply as her own father.

In my opinion, Emma needs a lesson of humility. She has a very high consideration of herself; she seems to be able to find the appropriate husband for all her single friends (she is always so clever, so wit and so right in her decisions...); however, she is so handsome, so clever and so rich that a man who could correspond with her does not exit!!!!!!!

marta dijo...

Ana well done with the subjunctive!, we have already got, who notices, here it is clearly a fact, so we can´t use the subjunctive. To behave well, the rest does not make sense. Inconvenience.
Your points are interesting and true. Ten to one that Elton is after E. After what Mr.K said we know that he wants to marry advantageously and who is Harriet Smith?? E is rich and handsome too so who would not like her? She has everything! H nothing only looks and a nice temper.
I object to the clever. E does seem to possess very little insight so far.

marta dijo...

Laura,reasons for not marrying, gerund after prep!!!
She does need a lesson of humility and I´m sure there is a man that is a match for her. How about Mr.W´s son? He is said to be handsome young and he is rich, the only heir of the Churchills, we´ll have to see if he is a match for E!

María. Adv.1 - D dijo...

I´d like to do it but it is very difficult for me to speak in subjuntive tenses, but I´ll tray to do it . I have chosen one sentence when Harriet said to Emma I hope that Mr. Martin and his sisters were not to bad . I think that it is a subjuntive becuse they don´t use "doesn´t" I am right?

clara dijo...

I've yet to read what will Harriet do in the end, but thanks to her wrong called friend, Emma, she could keep single as Mr knightley says.
it's not possible that an intelligent woman as Emma seems to be makes this mistake.

clara dijo...

I've yet to read what will Harriet do in the end, but thanks to her wrong called friend, Emma, she could keep single as Mr knightley says.
it's not possible that an intelligent woman as Emma seems to be makes this mistake.

Reyes dijo...

Hi classmates..... well, as you know we have to make a summary about the text which marta gave to us last day: "Bright Star" by John Keats.

I have to confess that I never heard about this poet, so I had curiosity in looking for information about him and his poetry... and I have just found in internet this address:

http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/452789/Bright-Star/trailers

You can hear and watch some trailers about the film, in english, of course.

I hope you enjoy it.

marta dijo...

María, that is so. It is not so difficult to use the subjunctive for us. For eg: E suggested that Mr.M be rejected.
Clara, seems to be making this....
You are right it seems incredible but it often happens. People, and all of us in fact, are sometimes blind. It often happens when we don´t get our way or think that what we do is right.

marta dijo...

Reyes thank you very much, this is great. Please look everybody,

clara dijo...

thanks Reyes, your information is very useful, I suggest that everybody should use it.
I find it very difficult to sumarize the article, it would be great if anyone gave to me some clues.

Reyes dijo...

Yes Clara.... I agree with you. It is very difficult to summarize the text in just 125-150 words because it is very long and very complicate to understand everything.

Sometimes, it is necessary that a film of these characteristiscs ( Bright Star) be made for us to realize the importance and the influency of the poets and poetry in our lives.

It is difficult to express our emotions and more difficult to write about our feelings. We have to do it in some events;

And of course, it is much more difficult when we are in love because we are like "mute" and blind.

Not only it is important what we want to express, but that it is more important the way we do it, indeed.

Isn´t it???

marta dijo...

Reyes, very complicated.
Well done with the subjunctiv.
I´m sorry you find it difficult, it is difficult, I told you. Just get rid of the superfluous and say what the article is about. Do it underlining the most important ideas and then cut that until you have the 150 words.
There are many things that are superfluous you only have to write the main points.
It is the fact that poets wrote something like that that make humans great. Don´t you think?

Reyes dijo...

Hi, Classmates.....This year in BBC are playing "Emma", it is just the novel we are reading in class.

If you want to watch the BBC series ( chapter by chapter) you can do it in the address below:

BBC Emma 2009 Clips 27 vídeos
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=A4344EA030214C2C

I think it is a very good practise to listen parts of the chapters in english while we are reading them.

I hope you enjoy it and be useful for you.

clara dijo...

I agree with you, it's a good thing to have this sort of people in the world, not only poets, or writers in general, but also all people who work in arts. what would be of us without them? they help us to see sometimes the bright side of life and sometimes the worst side of life, to teach us that there are many things we should change.
I'll try and do what you're recommening us when doing my summary.

marta dijo...

Reyes thank you very much for the information it is fantastic and I didn´t know, please everybody get the address but don´t watch more than what we are reading the story must be entirely unknown until the end.
Clara a very true comment what would we do without them, they are what is left of us and our time, they represent what stays, the permanent in a way we are what goes, a moment in time.

Carmen dijo...

Manolo, we have heard the CD and quiet honestly it is fantastic. Thanks so much from me and my fifths.
With my love and gratitute ....and compliments to your wife, as usual (I had to say it!!!).

Mª Av 1-S dijo...

Hi,
Mr K. knows E. very well, and although he didn't think she could go so far, he realises, exactly, which are her purposes. He is angry, but also he gives her some useful information related to her plan: Harriet has no future with Mr Elton. But, in spite of being noticed, E. is obstinate and continues taking her conjectures and wishes as if the were realities.
It is a pity that sometines we don't want to see the true, even when it is in font of you.

María. Avd. 1-D dijo...

I am surprised that Emma doesn't realize that Mr. Elton doesn´t like Harriet or maybe, at this moment she is still very innocent because she is trying to get, that Mr. Elton and Harriet are alone, but it is impossible despite of the tricks she did.

Laura de Arriba A1S dijo...

In spite of the fact that Emma is pampered, spoiled and flattered by everyone but Mr. Knightley, she is the only one in her family whose personality is stuck and individual. She has her own independent thoughts and she is not by any means easily influenced, quite the opposite, she is very good at influencing people. On the contrary, her sister is as Mr. Woodhouse; Isabella has not only such weakness of health but also of character. And she is completely dominated by her husband that, sometimes, is rude and unkind. Isabella’s temper, so tender and amiable, really gets on Mr. John Knightley’s nerves.

This makes me think about Mr. Elton and Mss. Smith. Do men want to marry a woman only because of her beauty and well-tempered character? Or else, is it necessary to have some intellectual concerns in common? In my opinion, Isabella is only the mother of Mr. John Knightley’s sons and daughters. Maybe, Mr. Elton is looking for something more than a mother for his sons… Could Harriet be more than a devoted wife?

Isidro dijo...

I think that Emma is not only very selfish but as well a bad woman. I don’t believe that he be interested in Harriet’s happiness. As well, it is possible she be intelligent conceptually, but I don’t believe that she be an emotional intelligent woman because she look as if she be blind to People’s feelings.
It is strange that Harriet should not realise that Mr. Elton is interested in Emma; and I am also surprised that Harriet should be so naïve. This situation can’t be extended for much time, but I doubt if the misunderstanding would be removed because Mr. Elton should show directly to Emma his feeling, or because finally Harriet should open her eyes.

Ana AV1S dijo...

By reading the last comments I have just thought that Emma would be very pleased to be the center of our concerns!

I have found very interesting the entering of Mr and Mrs John K. in the action, since it gives us the complete picture of the close family circle around Emma. Although they have different characters, both brothers Knightley seem to be the only ones who look deeply in her soul and don't flatter her immediately. In my opinion that is the main reason why Emma doesn't like her brother-in-law ("(...)Perhaps she might have passed over more had his manners been flattering to Isabella's sister, (...)", chapter 11). Could the fact that she doesn't feel the same for Mr. Knightley's critics be a hint of any hidden feeling?

On the other hand, Emma being so stubborn against marriage has shown us in chapter 10 her logical reflexions on it: Only falling in love would persuade her to marry, because she already has all other things women can achieve through a good match. Don't you think that this is nowadays more or less the same? It is hard to accept that there are some social and economical skills the reach of which depends on the person you marry.

Marriage not as a romantic issue but a practical duty is not any more fashionable (vid Hollywood films!), but in my opinion it does -still, sadly- matter! So if an actual woman be handsome, clever and rich as Emma, do you think she wouldn't need to get married to be considered a "complete", "fullfilled" woman? How does a working and single woman get a high social reputation today? In my opinion we women are suspicious of having some trouble more often than men are if we don't marry or have children when we are over thirty-something. Maybe social pressure hasn't evolve as much in the last two centuries as we might wish!

Mª Av1S dijo...

Thanks to Harriet's questions we know why E.has decided to be single, and that she has done it after thinking it over and taking account of the consequences. So, also she has planned her own future.
She is independent, both in mind and income. Her only worry is to fall in love, but why? because no man could give her such a freedom and position as her father does.
In contrast, she sees in her sister's matrimony all these negatives points. Although E. knows that I. is happy and that Mr. K. is a kind man, she thinks that he doesn't try her as an equal and that he be more considerate towards her father.
Ana, I agree with you, things haven't changed as they should have done it and women are in an unfair position in and outdoors.

Carmen Segura dijo...

* In chapter 10 we know the Emma’s ideas about matrimony. She is advanced to her time because she considers important to fall in love for marrying. On the contrary to be married it is not worth especially if you have enough money and you don’t have love.
It doesn’t matter if you are single. Being rich you’ll be respectable .
I agree with Emma in that point. People discriminate other people more for poverty than for other things. It doesn’t matter your colour skin or your ideas if you are rich.

Carmen Segura dijo...

*In chapter 10 appears a characteristic Emma’s spirit - her generosity to poor people.
The poor don’t appear like an important object in this novel but in one occasion Emma is going to visit a poor family with Harriet and tells her about the proper behaviour with people who have poverty.
It is important “ to relief to the sufferers and to do all we can for them” she said.
Emma is compassionate and helps them with her personal attention; she hears their worries and consoles them. On the other hand she helps them with money.
I think that is very important that every person helps the others in these two ways dedication and money.

marta dijo...

María, she is trying to get Mr.E and H to be alone. I agree with you and Mª it is surprising but real. We only see what we want not what is.
Laura do you think that John Knightly feels so? I suppose that to a certain extent he does, but don´t all husbands? I think he is just a bad-tempered man, they can´t all be perfect, it is true that I is like her father and so sometimes a pest.
Mr.E is looking for something more than a mother for his CHILDREN, he is looking for wealth.

marta dijo...

Maria, wants to get Mr.E to be alone. I agree with what you and Mª say it is surprising not to see it but it is a common failing people often don´t we see what we want.
Laura do you think that Mr.John K is so? I just think he is bad-tempered and Isabella gets on his nerves because she is a bit like her father and also because all wives get on their husbands´nerves!!

marta dijo...

You see how good I am? I´ve done it twice because I didn´t see the comment!
Isidro E has pu.....she if you please!!!!
Do you think she is bad?? That is saying a lot she wants to have her way but I think she means well.
Well done about the subjunctive but you have overdone it!! Too many, don´t overuse it I said one.
Ana a brilliant comment both in structure and content, I couldn´t agree more. E dislikes him because he treats her sister unkindly sometimes but probably because he is intelligent and doesn´t put up with E´s foolery and then I also agree about what you say regarding marriage. I want to talk about that during the lesson but it is a very modern position. You have to reach the 20th century to get someone to say that. That is why feminists consider Austen as the 1rst feminist writer! Although there is no feminism as such in her one sees why.

marta dijo...

María and Carmen both comment what seems is going to be the topic next week, I think it is very important, the novel meant a change in the mentality of that time, I really want to talk about that as it is true that marriage is still very important for women even if they are economically independent.

ampa dijo...

l'm reading Emma.It's a book interesting.It's the first time that I write on a blog like that, then you must be patience whith me. Thanks

Ana Martínez Esteban A1 S dijo...

I agree with Isidro about Emma's personality. I consider she leads herself as a cool and insensitive woman . She is less worried about Harriet's happiness than to achieve to be realized her own schemes, without having other people in mind.
I believe it is odd she has not realised Mr. Elton's behavior and his intentions.

Isidro dijo...

Emma thinks that, if she doesn’t fall in love, she never will get married, because she has nothing to win. Certainly, in the beginning of the nineteen century, this thought can be considerate advanced for a woman. But don’t forget that she propose this rule only for herself or someone superior, not for the majority of the women. For example she say that if she were like Mss Bates, so silly,… so prosing…,she would marry immediately. So, in my opinion, her thought is much more consequence of her selfish and proud character than because of her feminists ideas. There is not in her mind the idea of a movement of liberation of women, but the idea of a happy world with her as undisputable queen playing with the other persons’ feelings, because making match “is the greatest amusement in the world”.
I admit that I’ve exaggerate saying that Emma is a bad person. But I believe that there is something wrong in her personality which induce her to judge and to act without taking into account the other persons’ feelings.

clara dijo...

Isidro, you’re right in some aspects, but I think that Emma doesn’t have a bunch of men, like her, in her social position or higher than hers, to choose to get married.
So she must consider that she’s going to lose not only her freedom but also her possessions, as we’ve said more than twice, she has all a woman might want, and women want to get married with the idea of improving their lives, and unless Emma does it with Mr Knigthley, she’s not going to improve at all. She won’t fall in love with an inferior.
She’s selfish and proud as you say but in my opinion she’s not thinking of liberation and things like that because she doesn’t have this feeling.
People in need can fight to get what they need, but when you have everything, you won’t miss anything, then, how are you going to fight for anything you have?

Ana AV1S dijo...

It is too late so that I will just point something out because Isidro's words concern me...

What do you mean with "this thought is advanced for a woman"? Well, in my opinion this understanding both the material and the emotional parts of a relationship is not only positive for "superior" women, but for all women. However, without having the necessary economical support women of all centuries couldn't have been able to be independent and choose whom they want to marry freely. You don't need to go back to the 19th century, you just need to have a quick look around you - you don't even have to gaze. Emma isn't egoistic at that point, she is just very realistic. From our actual point of view her ideas might sometimes seem too superficial or snobbish, since I think that our opinios hide at least one little part of not willing to recognise that many of the situations pictured by Austen are still very usual.

Ana AV1S dijo...

sorry!
...snobbish, but I think...

Mónica AV-C dijo...

What do you think about Isabella? I think she is the oppossite of E, her ideas go around matrimony and to make her husband and children happy, althought she gets him on his nerves!!
I think the conversation she has with her father about which doctor gives the best advice is really silly and shows the lack of cleverness she has and how her world goes round.
It contrasts with her husband. He looks very intelligent and with clear ideas about what to do.

Mercedes AV1D dijo...

Yes, Monica, I think Isabella is the opposite of E., she is a good wife and mother, she is living for her children and husband. Apparently she isn't looking for her freedom she is a perfect, devoted wife even her husband seems doesn't give her a good support and sometime he talks to her not good manners, but she appears to affort this.
It is interesting in this chapter as J.A. shows us the different characteristcs of the family member, they are very polite in their discussions,for exemple in the chat between Isabella and her father though they are not agree each other they never lose their good manners.
On the other side, it obvious Emma doesn't like her brother in-law, but she has to accept him.
In my oponion J.A. reflects a normal family with their differences

Mercedes AV1D dijo...

Yes, Monica, I think Isabella is the opposite of E., she is a good wife and mother, she is living for her children and husband. Apparently she isn't looking for her freedom she is a perfect, devoted wife even her husband seems doesn't give her a good support and sometime he talks to her not good manners, but she appears to affort this.
It is interesting in this chapter as J.A. shows us the different characteristcs of the family member, they are very polite in their discussions,for exemple in the chat between Isabella and her father though they are not agree each other they never lose their good manners.
On the other side, it obvious Emma doesn't like her brother in-law, but she has to accept him.
In my oponion J.A. reflects a normal family with their differences

Isidro dijo...

Sara and Ana, I think you are right in your remarks about my comment. I've realized, after our discussion today in the class, that my point of view was out of context. I acknowledge that the thoughts of Emma about marriage are advanced. However, I think it is not easy for me conciliate this thoughts with her interest in finding a woman firstly for Mr Weston ,who had been a widower for a long time, and afterward another one to Mr Elton, because poor Mr Elton!... It look like if, to her, the natural state of men were to be married, and perhaps that is Why she is interested in finding the adequate woman to accomplish this target.
At last Marta is right, we can find the origin of the first feminist ideas in Jane Austin but this ideas only will be able to mature whit the time.

clara dijo...

The first day of December is being very productive. As I’ve been able to read, Ana agrees with the idea in which marriage is arranged in order to have a good economical support for women, and in this sense, you couldn’t choose a man freely (I think she wanted to say for love) not only in the 19th century but also nowadays. That’s way it’s not rare to hear that women take advantage of men, women need them, their money, ... then as Mercedes says Isabella’s husband talks to her in bad manners and she has to put up with it.
Isidro, I think feminists should have other kind of ideas, such us a woman should be prepared to make her living in order to live without depending of men.

Manolo dijo...

Why do you guys think Emma has modern ideas?.
In my opinion, her words saying that she will never get married, are not enough for considering her as a visionary. She doesn't hate marriage at all, it is only a matter of money and social status, in fact, if she found a man superior to her she would get married to him.

marta dijo...

Isidro the S of the third person!! you haven´t written it very often!! I have exaggerateD you do that too, careful, the past participle is in D. You are right that E is not a feminist, that concept does not appear until the 20th century.
Clara you have a point there are not many men for her. How about Frank Churchill? Or maybe somenoe will turn up, who knows!
Ana I couldn´t agree more with what you say.
Mónica, yes Isabella is silly and her husband intelligent it must be awful for him to have to share his life with her, but on second thoughts, she is easy to get on with, she disturbs him little, I suppose she grows worse with her father because it is worse to have two!

marta dijo...

Mercedes, her husband seems NOT to give...., though they do not agree.
It is a perfect picture of a family even of a family today excepting in what regards manners.
Isidro, I think E wants to find parteners for her friends because according to customs that was the best and most desirable position for a woman.
Clara,the difference is that E says she will marry only for love not for money. Some women marry for money and men too but it is not our heroine´s case.
Manolo, I´m not so sure, she says she won´t marry unless it is for love, so if the man is superior to her but she doesn´t love him she will not marry, well at least that is what she says.

Ana Martínez Esteban A1 S dijo...

I have to say it has been interesting today's debate about Emma's character. I share the idea that nowadays some people already get married in order to improve their living standards, as before. However, society in ours days can often be, somehow, more flexible, understanding and in many social environments with a great freedom to choose any stile of living that people wished. I believe that although Emma enjoyed of a high social standing, with all kind of privileges, she was living in a closer society to allow her thiking and making in other different way.

marta dijo...

Ana,Today´s debate about E´s character has been interesting.Society in our days, the adj has one form...to allow her to think and act in other different ways.
You are very right in what you say she is brave to go against convenction.

María. Av. 1-D dijo...

I would like to speak about John Knightley. He seems to me very desagrable, sometimes with his wife and with the rest of the people. Specialy when he goes at Randalls for dinner on Christmas Eve and he complains about Mr. Weston, in order to go his house because of, it is snowing. He goes into the carriage with Emma and she allowed him to talk, without opening her lips and it is strange because she didn´t like his behavior.

marta dijo...

María I don´t feel the same, I think he is intelligent and with insight, he just doesn´t want to go out he likes being at home, he is disagreable sometimes but he gets on well with Mr.Knightly and that shows that he is a good person

María. Av. 1-D dijo...

I believe it is normal that he gets on well with his brother but with the rest of the people I think he should be more considered than he is, especially if he has been invited by other person.
I agree with you he is an intelligent man but he shoud have more patient with all of them, in the same way that he is patient with his father-in-law.

Mª Av 1-s dijo...

Mr. J. K. was introduced in chapter 11 as a man whose "temper was not his great perfection", and we know now why. His behavour in the carrige has no excuse, being almost rude in front of Mr Elton. Mr. J. K. is intelligent, he notices Mr Elton´s intentions towards E. at first time, also he is rigth and travelling in such a bad weather can be foolih. But, he's a bad temper man and in my opinion, his bad humour appears when things don't go how he likes. He's not fond of society, he has a bad opinon about Mr Weston and, in addition, it starts to snow.

marta dijo...

María, invited by another person....he should have more patience.
Yes, but he is rude within his family, not to Mr.W´s face and that is normal, we all do it.
Mª, yes he has a bad temper but I think I´d rather a man you can depend upon even if he is moody than one who is nice and good for nothing like Mr.Elton.
What do you think?

clara dijo...

It’s not very easy to decide what to choose in that sense. What is it that makes a man good for living with a woman, apart from the love they could feel for each other? Living with a really bad tempered man is awful; it might drive you mad, but a good for nothing but good person, who really loves you, could be a great companion for you, which is what most women are looking for; the problem here is the money you need to live. It’s impossible to have everything, unless you’re a very rich person and you don’t need the money your husband earns to survive. (This is the case of Emma)
So, as usual, in marriage as in all aspects of life, the best situation is fifty-fifty, although generally speaking, in real life you get married the less expected man. Why do you fall in love with a man and it has to be him and no another one, when there are many of them to be chosen?

Mª Av1-S dijo...

For me it's better to know what you can expect about somebody.
Mr. J. K. is frank and straight, but it must be difficult to live with him. On the other hand, in my opinion, when somebody is always "acting" to obtein something, as Mr. Elton does, you can't know what you can expect. In addition, I think that this kind of behavour produces resentment inside themselves, and that it is bigger when they don't reach their target.
I'd sonner not choose between them, although I can see the diference.

marta dijo...

Clara a fantastic thought on marriage and what is adequate or not. It is true that what we want is a man that treats you well that is the best thing but it is not always so, for example I have very stupidly looked for a different type of man, although my mother always adviced me to do that.
It is difficult to stablish what we are looking for. Some women would find a bad tempered man, but an intelligent one, more attractive than the other. Don´t you think?
And what about them? They also look for a type and sometimes it is not the sweet tradicional docile woman, sometimes they like the one who makes them suffer the one who is good in bed even the one who cuckolds them.
Maybe I´m wrong I don´t know

marta dijo...

Mª I agree that it is better not to have surprises.
I´d certainly marry Mr.J Knightly rather than Mr. Elton!
Emma finds Mr.J.K´s character bad because her father´s is so gentle, but men are not so gentle so those of us who have fathers that were not at all like Mr.W, need not find any problem with dealing with some bad temper although it is bad is the contrary of good and to be next to a well-tempered man would be the best option.

clara dijo...

You’re right, and here there’s something at least curious, women are very often quite coward, and they look for a man who protects them, especially on the financial front, instead of have the braveness to choose the man they really want to share their lives, but they are not able to get it unless they are self-sufficient.
But your point is great, why are we so idiot, generally speaking, that we always want to have the men/woman who doesn’t love us and cheats on us and makes our lives miserable? I don’t think that just men want anyone who cuckolds him but also women do. So, as a conclusion, can we say that the more cuckolds we are with our partner, the better we’ll be with him/her?

Brianda dijo...

Hello! This is my first comment about Emma and I hope it will not be my last!
In my opinion Mr Elton has been doing right, acting in consecuence with his feelings. Is Emma who thinks he in love with Harriet but we have seen others apart from Mr J. Knightly thinking he being more interested in Emma.

Reyes dijo...

Clara, very interesting your question, but very certain too. It is our human nature, the more difficult it is to get something or someone, the more interest we show in it.

We do it in our current life, when someone is good for us we don´t have any consideration with him/her because we are so sure that we will have got them for ever that we don´t care of them.

But when we can get everything from someone, that is very irresistible for us, we have to get it over all, without thinking about the feelings of the others..... It is like a "challenger".....Both , men and women wish everything that they cannot obtain or that is difficult to get.

María. Av. 1-D. dijo...

I agree with you Reyes, but people only are able to realise when they lose some important thing or lose the person who were close to them because very often you give more value to what others have, that what you have to.

marta dijo...

Clara, instead of having:gerund., to share their lives with.
Ha,Ha I hope it doesn´t mean that. I think we are attracted by God knows what in them and it is not maybe the best thing for you. I know that I always fall for the wrong person I don´t know why it is very unfortunate!!
Brianda, hi and welcome, it is E who thinks...thinking he is (being doesn´t go with he).
Yes anybody with sense would prefer E to H, but it is John K who tells E because I think he is cleverer than the rest honestly and not blinded by E herself

marta dijo...

Reyes, it is like a challange...I think you mean that we want to get it when we can´t.
I agree it is the Forbidden Apple that we want, not what we can have easily you are very right.
María, people realise IT, ..the person who was close...
That´s true but I´m afraid that even in that case if we had to choose again we would choose with the same code, not everybody but what attracts you attracts you and it is difficult to scape that.

anatejada dijo...

I don t think Mr John Knightley is a bad tempered man.Obviously he has a strong character and he reacts according to it.In addition to it he leads a completely different life than the Highbury s inhabitants and probably he does not mind very much about them.He could treat Isabella a bit roughly
sometimes,but she seems to be a happy woman and at ease with her life.She is not a bright girl but
her life fits perfectly with her character.

Ana Martínez Esteban A1 S dijo...

In every time relationships between men and women have ever been complicated. We are seeing ourself now and the plot in Austen's work, Emma, either. We can ever find misunderstandings, misgivins, dark intentions...
J. Austen is a great writer setting these kind of feelings between very different people. Now Mr. Elton has just found the proper time to declare Emma his love. They are alone in the carriage coming back at home after Weston's dinner. Mr Elton has suffered a terrible disappointment. Emma has just refused him.
In fact, nothing new under the sun but written in a very good taste.

Isidro dijo...

I agree with anatejada. In my view, Isabella is happy with her life and proud of her five children. She leads her life according to her nature and we can’t hope more of her. On the contrary, Emma’s intelligence is used on collecting riddles and charades, on making bad likeness and on manipulating other people’s feeling. How would say Mr. Knightley, she is wasting her intelligence.
I believe Mr John knightley has a rough temper but hi is direct and honest. He says to Emma that Mr Elton is interested in her and also that her manners encourage him. He says to Mr Woodhouse he admired his resolution very much in venturing out in such a weather. I think the situation is very comic because Mr Woodhouse has been only interested in having tea and he was ready immediately to go home. Don’t you think that Mr John K. is right to be angry in such a night between people who have nothing in common with him.
In conclusion I prefer sincere honest and direct people than ceremonious, unnatural, hypocrite and manipulative one. To be intelligent is good, but the very important thing is how people use their intelligence.

Isidro dijo...

.... but he is direct....

..but the very important thing is how people sould use their intelligence.

Mercedes AV1D dijo...

I think J. A. draws clearly the whole of family: Mr. Woodh. like an old man that he lives to find his own convenience, Emma is the intellegence and her sister Isabella is the perfect and submissive wife, while her husband is a realistic man that he is obliged to spend his time together people are not very interesting to him, and top of everything the weather-bound to make the worst situation and he thinks he has to stay in this house with those people and there is imposible to scape .
How many times have we found in such situations? and we have thought we are falling into a trap when we would like to run away of that place and those people because we don't like them.

marta dijo...

Isidro, how would Mr.k say...,
Yes I agree with you and Ana, John K. has a temper but sometimes one understands that he loses his patience with his family! And I agree also that Isabella has done very well for herself and he is happy too, he needs such a wife, E for him would have been terrible, they´d have clashed.
Mercedes a realistic man who, how many times have we found ourselves,
Yes, the novel shows a perfect picture but in a funny way.
Don´t you think that Mr.E´s declaration trapping E in the carriage is wonderful? I think the setting is really well-picked.

clara dijo...

The scene in the carriage might have been so romantic a scene, if Mr E had had any possibilities of being corresponded. If E had been in love with him it would have been perfect, but life is sometimes terrible, but not unfair sine I think Mr E seems to be angry rather than sad. I’m sure he wanted E’s money, possessions... never have I read so ridiculous a situation, if I were there I’d laugh at both of them a lot. God help him to find another rich woman.

anatejada dijo...

finally we can see Mr E. s real
personality.Through the previous chapters he appears as a gentle and amiable man,though a bit ridiculous,in my opinion.But now he shosws his bad temper when he does not obtain what he wants,
Emma s acceptance of his proposal.And what is amazing is Emmas ingenuity about Mr E s intentions,She is really naive,although she is clever girl.

Reyes dijo...

In these chapters we can see Mr.Elton´s real personality. In spite of being a reverend he shows a bit hypocritical behavior when he tells Emma his opinion about Harriet and her conditions of birth.
He never wanted Harriet to marry because her social position, so finally, he demostrates that he is a man as all the rest with his pisitives and negatives actitudes,he prefrers a "perfect wife" in all the senses, and that is why Emma is so shocked about his propose.

And although he appears like a peaceful man, indeed he is a man of strong character and used to not receiving any denials and to be refused.

A bit "arrogant man", dont´n you think??? He was very sure of Emma´s feelings??

Reyes dijo...

Sorry for my mistakes: "positives", "attitudes"
"prefers" "proposal" "don´t".

I try to write very fast and that´s why I make many mistakes. Sorry, next time I will write a bit slower.

Mª A 1-S dijo...

Hi everyone

All the worries that we have commented yet about the journey to The Weston's house in such a bad weather, have finished in a very differnt way in the returning.
So, the snow storm -the main worry-although it's bigger now,it disappears. Those who were and went joyous return angry and the upset now is all kindness.
How differnet your spirits can be in only some hours in the same place (the carrige), and how different you can understand or misunderstand the same situacions or think about someone.
This scene shows that the author is a very good writer, who has planned a very accurate plot. She gives us hints and what appears as a simple causal element -the carriage- grows in importance and the really storm is into it.

clara dijo...

Reyes, you're right. A few chapters later we see how he has found another woman, not as rich as E but rich enough to have a good living, have you think about it? he's living with his wife's money, a God's man, isn't it very awful?
Nowadays there are many men that behave like that, but men in general always say that it's women and not them that do these things. It's as if we were the worst people in the world.

marta dijo...

Clara and Ana, yes it is a ridiculous scene and therefore funny,it is true that you see Mr.E´s real character, that he wanted E´s money more than anything and it is true that she is real gullible and silly not to have noticed anything!
Reyes the adj is sg careful!!It is true that Mr.E loses guard and is very nasty but he gets really angry about E having thought H good enough for him, it exasperates him and he has a point really.

marta dijo...

Reyes well done for correcting yourself. I hadn´t read that message.
Mª a very interesting comment, and it shows a great insight, and I agree completely with everything you say. The carriage becomes important, it is like an enclousure of the feelings something that holds them in, like it keeps people inside hidden too.
Clara please don´t disclose the story.
You are right, men are mercenary just like women and what is wrong with that? There must be a reason to marry and whichever is good for whoever. Not just love love is just another reason.

Isidro dijo...

What a surprise! I’ve just read in chapter XIV that Emma wonder about getting married with Mr Frank whom she doesn’t know. Never had I thought after, reading the Emma’s “advanced ideas” in chapter X, that she would sometime be so interested in get married.

After reading once again the presumed feminist passage I think that Emma’s declaration is only a dialectic game in order to remove from Harriet’s mind her possible uncertainty. Emma knows that Harriet always have thought that Mr Elton is considerable higher than her. And Harriet is not so stupid as to doesn’t doubt of Mr Elton love. She has to suspect that there is something strange in the relationships between Mr. Elton and Emma; therefore her demosnstration of surprise about Emma should not have been married is very interested.

In my view, Emma develops a convincing argument in order to make Harriet more confident. But it is only a trick that must be placed in the same plan that the pretended loosened laze of her bote.

If finally Emma too is looking forward getting married all the novel would be reduced to a story that exhibits the traditional feelings of a group of friends, with their gossips, their rivalry, jealousy, sadness, frustrations, happiness, etc...

clara dijo...

Isidro, I agree with you in your way to see Emma's feelings and her behavior, she's manipulative. Poor H she's so inocent that she believes all E tells her. Emma's imagining things, but I think she's not willing to get married anyone. As you say it would spoil the story. J A wants E to show us something different, we must wait and see what she has for us.

Laura de Arriba A1-S dijo...

In the last three chapters I have just read Emma starts to understand she was not right about Mr. Elton’s feelings towards Harriet. At first, she cannot believe what Mr. John Knightley suggests to her, but eventually she has to admit the evidence when Mr. Elton declares his love for her. Here there is a huge misunderstanding of the situation! Through Emma’s intercession, Harriet refuses Mr. Martin’s proposal of marriage and falls in love with Mr. Elton; Mr. Elton’s love for Emma is unrequited and we discover her thinking about Frank Churchill and the possibility of meeting him soon. What a mess!

clara dijo...

I don't think Harriet has forgotten her love for Mr Martin so easily that now she be in love with Mr Elton, if it had been like that she would've been on the one hand very immature, and on the other hand she would've wanted to take advantage of one of them.

marta dijo...

Isidro, E´s not the E´s, in getting married, gerund after prep. Well done with the inversion.
..as to not doubt, the neg is what Hamlet said not to be.
Yes E is a girl of her time, she wonders about what getting married to Mr. Churchill would be like, and it is a surprise I admit, but she is modern in wanting to marry just for love, without any other considerations, she does not want to marry for the traditional reasons and she is prepared to stay single if she doesn´t fall in love.

marta dijo...

Clara well done with the subjunctive, I agree that probably H hasn´t forgotten Mr.M, and I disagree with Isidro, H is a fool, the poor girl, a good girl but silly, as E can manipulate her so easily, only fools are manipulated so. One has to beware of domineering people they are very dangerous.
You all seem to attach great importance to the fact that E wonders about F.Churchill, why? Who wouldn´t? He´s got everything, handsome rich connected anybody would wonder about him and think will I like him? Will he like me? That is normal E is 21 and she hasn´t experienced 1rst love yet!!!

clara dijo...

In no writing in this blog has anybody said something about the first love of Emma but Marta. That has made me think about the fact of seeing Emma's life in that way, is she a 'woman' in the complete, or absolute sense of the word?
Nowadays every teenage girl has her first experience with love, this doesn't want to say 'to make love with anybody' only to be in love with her classmate, neighbour, a friend of a friend of hers , who knows! But it's unlikely to find a girl whose first love hasn't taken place at this early age. Being a 21-year-old girl without being married was a bad thing, since women used to be married at that age and much younger.

Ana AV1S dijo...

I would like to come back to the topic of considering E a kind of early feminist. When they are talking about the possibility of Mr Frank Churchill visiting his father at Randalls she makes a clear difference between the free will of a young man and a young woman. So not only does she has a very pragmatic point of view about marrying, but E also puts in words the huge difference society still makes between the concept of freedom applied to a woman or a man. At least we have to admit that she is a clever woman who has a fine sensibility for judging human relations - as far as she isn't obstinate in arranging a match for her friends! However, it is also true that if she be poor, she wouldn't probably be able to allow herself this sort of thoughts and behaviours.

Never did you think of E wanting to marry? That wasn't exactly what she said. She mentioned the possibility of marrying for love if she find a superior partner, which is exactly what she wants to see in Mr Churchill. As Marta writes, all in all she is just a young and unexperienced woman!

Ana Martínez Esteban A1 S dijo...

Hardly have we read a few chapters of this interesting novel, and I am realizing the richness of its content.
In my view, many of the main characters are so well designed that, although scarcely has nothing extraordinary been happening, just life itself, J. Austen gets to awaken great wishes of knowing about them and their own event's developement. For instance I would like knowing what will happen with Mr E. and with Ms Frank Churchil? Might Emma fall in love with anybody?

marta dijo...

Clara, not everybody is of a falling-in-love-often disposition and E hasn´t really had many chances, she doesn´t go about a lot.
Ana,..does she HAVE. A brilliant comment, I agree, she wants to marry only for love, that is modern and she points out the differences between a man and a woman. There were a lot, E is allowed a great deal of freedom, really, and she has much more that any Spanish girl of that time, don´t you think?
Well done you two for the inversions and subj

marta dijo...

Ana M. well done for the inv. but in the second you shouldn´t have have used nothing two negative elements are not possible in the same sentence.
I would like to know.
I´m glad that you have said that about the novel it is absolutely true!

Isidro dijo...

Marta, I agree with you. Emma is a girl of his time. In my view, for doing “advanced ideas” would be necessary she not to be of her time. You say that she is modern because she wanted marry just for love. But, I don’t understand that she should think that what is good for her is not good for Harriet.
As well, if she is prepared to stay single if she doesn´t fall in love, why is she so interested in getting married with a person she even doesn’t know?
I think that Jane Austin is a very good writer. So, if she had wanted to create Emma other way she would do it, but she has wanted to create a woman of her time, very intelligent but also very manipulative and ignorant of the human nature, what is normal because she is very young. That is why she is mistaken with Emma, With Mr. Elton, With Mr Frank ?.......

marta dijo...

Isidro, E is a girl of HER time,for...it would be necessary for her not to be a person of her time...don´t forget the subject!!!
...if she had wanted to create E differently she would have done it. Careful with the conditional sentence.
Well E can afford not to marry because she is rich. That is not H´s case, she is poor and has no family she has to marry or how is she going to survive?
Austen is also talking about that in her novels, women had no way of surviving if they had no money, the only thing they could do was marry. We can all the possibilities in the novel.

Carmen Segura dijo...

Chapter 15
At the end of this chapter we notice the first time that Emma is really perturbed.
It reminds me at the beginning of the novel when Emma is introduced like a person who had never had distress or vexation.
Nobody escapes to problems in life.


Chapter 16
At least Emma recognises to be wrong!
Emma seems to regret about her interference in Harriet’s feelings.
She recognises that it has been a great error to take part matching and she is ashamed and concern.
She is troubled about next behaviour and she only has the conviction of her doing a great blunder.
The worst is her task of explaining to Harriet what is happened.
Most of us had had sometime this situation and we can understand haw difficult is to say sorry and to comfort other person.

Mercedes AV1D dijo...

Yesterday, we were talking in class about new technologies are changing our lifestyle and whether our ancestors were happier than today or not.
There were different opinions and the class was very amusing.
I think with regards that matter, today is more confortable for everybody than before. We have a lot of gadgets that they help us in our jobs and they are very useful, of course people at that time lived well without gadgets but the work was different that nowdays. Yes, rarely had women got washing machine and dishwasher and they have to work at home and they bear their husbands and children or even their old parents, sometime marriages were good and other times not good, and what happened in this case?, they have to support them because they weren't economic free, at the moment women have the possibility make a living and if they don't have a marriage confortable they will get to divorce , and, yes, on the contrary, nowdays they work more than before,because they have to work outside and inside at home.

clara dijo...

Mercedes, I agree with you in all your points, specially when you say that today we are free to do what we want, the only condition is to have some money.
But here the mostimportant idea is, if we haven't had those gadgets, it wouldn't have been possible our working outside, and how would we have been able to have enough money?

marta dijo...

Carmen,E admits that she is wrong!You are right as you advance in life you start having trouble a very good point.
She is...and concerned. ...of explaining what has happened. ...how difficult it is to....
Your comments are really true, no wonder E is worried she has something horrible to confess: that after she has been encouraging poor H,she herself is the chosen one.

marta dijo...

Mercedes, I think you want to say that the class was fun.
...today IT is, don´t forget the subject,... we have a lot of gadgets that help us.
You should write all your comment in the past, as you are talking of the past life of women.
...the possibility of making...a comfortable marriage.
What you say is true, of course we wouldn´t go back to the past, independence is the most important thing, but I think that women sometimes work more now than before.
Clara, it wouldn´t have been possible for women to work.
Yes I think we all agree on that.

«El más antiguo ‹Más antiguo   1 – 200 de 907   Más reciente› El más reciente»

Wilkie Collins

Wilkie Collins