10 de junio de 2008

Summer Reading for (old) Y4's

Here is the thread for you to discuss what you read during your summer holidays. In this way, we can keep in touch and exchange views and information on this novel.
:)
Carmen's firt proposal is "Persuasion", by Jane Austen.

316 comentarios:

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Paloma dijo...

Hi, mates! we are already at home!!!! Great!!!

maria luisa dijo...

Tank you for our new section for this summer. In "Talking People", we were thinking about starting the novel on July, and proposing a calendar to read it together. OK?

María Luisa

Dakota dijo...

Yes, Paloma, you just needed to tell us you wanted this. No problem. Please, read the message the admin team eft on the TP EOI Goya Forum called "Community". It seems you are a bit lost with both resources and we tried to clarify. For the time being, the TP Forum can be used for language questions and for your requests (on "Community") because you cannot start threads here. But it's true that a forum can also be used for what you do here, as luari realized while using it. But as you have this blog, we can just use the forum for other things.
Enjoy

maria luisa dijo...

Thank you Dakota again. Probably much more people will see now this idea about reading that novel together during our holidays and join us. But now I know how to use the forum of Talking People and will continue visiting it because the topics are very interesting.

María Luisa (luari)

Ohhh, in my previous post please don’t look at that horrible “tank”,

Carmen dijo...

Hello folks, let me start by admitting that I could not post anything in the forum!!!!! isn´t that horrible? Thank God we are back in the blog...
When shall we start reading? Let me know first if I am in the compettitive exams!! I have a lot of chances. Tomorrow is the day when I know, Friday I have a very busy day... i´ll propose a date during the week.end and you do so too

roberto dijo...

Hello everyobody.

I'd prefer start to read the book (Persuasion) in July because by that time I will be working a part-time and I will have more free time to read.

maría dijo...

Until 23th June I won´t be able to start to read. Therefore I agree with Roberto. However, whether you decide to start now (don´t you need a lull, parenthesis, etc?), I can involve later... But, please, don´t run a lot, then it´s impossible to catch you up!

maría dijo...

oops, it´s said to start reading, isn´t it? sorry.
Carmen, if you want to write in the forum, firstly you must register (above, on the right side), good luck

Elena-4A dijo...

Hi everybody!

Carmen, I think it is a great idea to read a novel by Jane Austen and post comments in the blog. Indeed, it reminds me of the film "The Jane Austen Book Club", where a group of people (in fact, these were all women except for a man who went everywhere on bike, which reminds me of someone, hehehe) met to talk about their impressions on one of Jane Austen's novels. Each month, they all read one novel and extracted similarities with their real lifes. Not only did I find the film moving, but it also encouraged me to read Jane Austen. I strongly recommend it!

Also, I would agree to start on July so as to have some break after the exams, etc.

Well, see you in the blogs,

Elena.

Paloma dijo...

As I told you somewhere else, I don’t remember where, I have two different films about Persuasion. When we are reading the book, we can meet together and see one or both of them. Both are great!

maria luisa dijo...

It's a good idea, Paloma. Are both versions very different one from the other?

Raquel dijo...

I am reading Jane Eyre by Charlotte Brontë. What a pity! I hope I will finish it for july and join you. By the way, when have you arranged to meet Carmen to give her the money for the theatre?

Carmen dijo...

Ok we´ll start in july! I cant´t promise to post everyday but i´ll be there. Summer is busy for meand I have to borrow Marta´s computer which is not always possible.
Rachel the group is already closed. I was not aware you wanted to join us. I´ll put you on the waiting list if I can´t get you a ticket tomorrow at the theatre.
Jane Eyre is great, keep it up Mr. Rochester....is better than Walter Hartright

Paloma dijo...

Well the two versions are similar, both are good.

ENTRADAS MACBETH dijo...

Tengo 7 entradas para Macbeth, si quieres ir házmelo saber antes del lunes 23.

María

Paloma dijo...
Este comentario ha sido eliminado por un administrador del blog.
Paloma a Roberto dijo...
Este comentario ha sido eliminado por un administrador del blog.
paloma 5th A dijo...

Hello everybody. I am Paloma 5th A. The other day Marta said me that the 4th are going to read this summer the novel entitled Persuasion written by Jane Austen. And that the 5th could do the same. I thought of it was a very good idea because I liked very much the only novel that I had read of this authoress 'Pride and Prejudice'. And I brought the novel that same day. I began it yesterday because I could not wait for begining it. I have read only three chapters and with regard it I have found some resemblances between both novels. The novel begins to introduce us a family formed by a father and his three daughters. The father Sir Walter Elliot is like Mr. Bennet although he appears to be most vanity because he is a baronet. And his three daughters could have relation with the Mr. Bennet's four ones. Althought the one names Elisabeht doesn't look like Elisabeth Bennet. And I believe that Lady Russell could have relation with Mrs Bennet, although the first looks more intelligent that the second. I do not know what are going to happen in the novel but I wait that it will be so fun and amusing as 'Pride and Prejudice'.
I encourage to read this novel to my classmaters of 5th because in this way we could comment it with the 4th.
Thanks Carmen and Marte for giving us the opportunity to be in contact this summer and improving now knowledge in English.

marta dijo...

Paloma 5th A, it´s fantastic that you have already started. Careful with the verb and subject they must be coordinated. Careful with using I had been for I have been. The past perfect appears rarely and it is usually linked with another verb, ok?. the one named and not the one names. There are other mistakes but it is a very good try, persevere. As regards your comments about the characters, do you really think that Mrs. Bennet is like Lady Russell? Mrs. Bennet was not from a very good family, and she was decidely silly, whereas Lady R. had a title and sense, don´t read too quickly the important thing is to understand the text well.
What about the other 5ths? Anybody else has joined the reading?

Carmen dijo...

Welcome Paloma.
The presentation of the characters could be similar but the characters as such are very different. Go more into them and give your opinion of Sir Walter. that´s the one to compare with Mrs. Bennet if any, don´t you htink?

Carmen dijo...

I will post here my comment on the play The Importance...
SHIT how can anyone understand the characters so ill? Gwendolen was not naive, she was aggressive and thought highly of herself!! Cecily was not forward,and the words...all those witty comments ruined!!
By the way read Pedro J´s article in el Mundo today, Sunday...he quotes Shakespeare, get reading Shakespeare and stop watching TV

Roberto dijo...

Dear class mates,

I am really glad to have both of you, Paloma and Marta, joining this thread created to make good use of our summer holiday and it is high time 4th year pupils show what we have learnt through the whole year. Let’s see whether we deserve to be in 5th.

I must warn you that we are starting the reading of the book next week so that we might have a little rest till becoming ourselves immersed in a new exciting discuss, besides, we have to arrange how to split the novel to keep everybody reading the book at the same time. Thus, please do not forget not to tell the plot if you are ahead of the group reading the novel.

Concerning the importance of being Ernest, in spite of not having read it, I enjoyed the play, though, it is plain that having being settled in our epoch, the text may loose many of their qualities. What I really did not like it was the fact that sometimes people laughed when something funny was said clearly with the purpose of giving to the story a current meaning.

Anónimo dijo...

Thanks Marta for your corrections. I will try to make less mistakes in my next comments. In relation to my comment about the similarity between Mrs. Bennet and Lady Russell, it was because Lady Russell seemed to represent the role of mother of Sir Walter's daughters in this novel and it was not because they had the same personality.
As regards Carmen's comment I agree with you that Sir Walter's character would be compared with Mrs Bennet, because neither of them seems to have common sense.

maría dijo...

Generally, every adaptation of classic pieces of work uses to be bad. I must admit I´ve not read The importance... so I can not be as "angry" as you. I laughed, but also I felt ashamed in some hot scenes because of the child audience... I hope Lady Macbeth be better.

Some extra information: Firstly, have a look at Festival de Teatro de Mérida program(there is a Shakespeare´s play). And secondly, does anybody want to see Gloria Gaynor on 2nd July at Conde Duque?

Natalia dijo...

Yes Maria, I'll go with you, she's great !!!
I must admit that I enjoyed the play cause I haven't read the book before, but generally I think it was funny and with interesting quotes on it.

María dijo...

Nataly!!!! You are a sun!!!!

I´m buying Persuasion!!

marta dijo...

Anonimus no mistakes this time wonderful! keep writing, Sir Walter is much more stupid than Mr. Bennet for me though he has his faults they are not like Sir Walter´s

maría dijo...

For those who haven´t bougth Persuasion, don´t go to Pasajes, there isn´t any book until two weeks after. At Book´s House there is a book which contains the whole work of Austen (26€, more than 1.000 pages!!!). I bought it so I´ll have to read every Austen´s novel!

How are we organising the reading?

The Bandit dijo...

Hi everyone:

I bought "Persuasion" in La Casa del Libro, Gran Via. It´s a humble edition (7,90€) but it was the only one. There weren´t any Penguin´s edition left. I hope that information would be useful for all of you.

Bye.

roberto dijo...

Here you have the dates posted in the school so as to do the registration for the next course:

From the 26th of June to the 18th of July in "Secretaría", the timetables of which are:

26th > 9.30-14 / 16.30-19.30

27th-30th > 10 / 14.30

1st-24th > 10-14

28th-29th > 10-13

You are right María, we must decide how to arrange the reading.

Have you got any idea?

Natalia dijo...

I bought the book in FNAC and I only paid 3,50 Euros, it was the penguin edition, maybe they still have any book left.
Roberto, thank you very much for all the information you always provide us!

maría dijo...

Well, it seems that I´ve bougth the more expensive...

I think that the best idea would be to fix a date from which we can talk about a chapter. A week for each chapter. Do you know what I mean? However, Carmen may have some ideas...

I´ll go to the school tomorrow. But, what timeble?? 2-4 p.m.? Carmen, say us if you are finally teaching 5th and the timetable you have chosen, pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

maría dijo...

I´ll go to the school on thrusday, I meant

roberto dijo...

So will I

Carmen dijo...

Do you think I would ever leave my "daffodils"? you do not know me.
I cannot find my persuassion!!!but the division is very simple: number of chapers, number of weeks divide and there you are.
We compared mrs. Bennete and Sir walter. I think that the basic difference between them is that Sir Walter thinks only of himself and Mrs. Bennet thinks about her daughters and not about her. She is not selfish.
I´m afraid I´ll have dfficulty with catching up this summer. My life is very busy.. I do tons of things and lots of clothes-change. It´s like that in Santander where i will be.
the importance was corny, and in English is beautiful and elegant. read it as well

maria dijo...

Does that mean that you are teaching us next year? Great!

roberto dijo...

The book is 24 chapters long. Considering there are three months without attending classes till the course starts and dividing the chapters among them, we would have 8 chapters per month, it meaning 2 chapters a week.

Therefore, I suggest that we have the first one finished no later than the following Thursday (the 3th) and the second read before next week begins and so once and again.

What do you think?

roberto dijo...

I am listening to Lady Windermere’s fan, by Oscar Wilde, and I am really enjoying it. This morning while coming to my job, I have listened to one of the characters saying a quote appeared in The importance of being Ernest, too: “There are only two tragedies in life: one is not getting what one wants, and the other is getting it”

roberto dijo...

I made a mistake when I wrote the timetables. This is the correct one concering the 27th and 30th:

27th-30th > 16:30 - 19:30

It has been already published on the EOI web site.

María dijo...

Your idea is very good Roberto. So, it is next week that we´ll talk about the first chapter, isn´t it?

roberto dijo...

Yes, it is.

Thank you, María.

These are Carmen's Classes for the AV2 Course:

2A > 10-12, Classroom 2.3 M/J

2B > 14-16, Classroom 2.3 L/X

2C > 16-18, Classroom 2.3 L/X

I have chosen 2B

maria dijo...

I´ll do the same as you. It would be great that we all (I mean the daffodils) could be in the same class! 14-16 L/X!

roberto dijo...

Yes, you are completely right.

Carmen dijo...

We shall do the schedule Roberto proposes: 2 chapters per week!
Any comments on macbeth? I quite enjoyed it because it describes very clearly the devastating effect that remorse has on human beings who have been carried to far by ambition and suddenly they find that it wasn´t worth it that much or better not at all!
The cruelty that Lady Macbeth shows when she says that breastfeeding her baby she could kill it was horrible, don´t you think? I´ll try to get hold of some of the words in English and post them!!

roberto dijo...

While preferring King Lear, I enjoyed the play, too. As in any other tragedy of
Shakespeare’s, there lot of amazing quotes showing perfectly how the human mind works and it is this skill that makes him be the master, for everyone can suffer such feelings, though, who is really able to show them so clearly?

Carmen, you are right, what a terrible speech!

What do you think of this one:

“If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well
It were done quickly: if the assassination
Could trammel up the consequence, and catch
With his surcease success; that but this blow
Might be the be-all and the end-all here,
But here, upon this bank and shoal of time,
We'ld jump the life to come. But in these cases
We still have judgment here; that we but teach
Bloody instructions, which, being taught, return
To plague the inventor: this even-handed justice
Commends the ingredients of our poison'd chalice
To our own lips.”

roberto dijo...

mistake:

There ARE lotS of ...

María dijo...

How hard the quote, Roberto! I also prefer King Lear, but this play has been one of the best we see this year. As for me, I´ve liked Happy Days, King Lear, El guía del Hermitage and The woman in black very much.

Shakespeare is always illuminating. It is great that such man has existed to explain everyone what the life is, what our actions mean and what effects have in our conscience.

Macbeth was great, better than his wife, in my opinion. I didn´t like the Sergeant, that role didn´t fit in with that actress. The stage was dark, as if it was underground, as if it was a mousetrap... It transmited a feeling of desperation, as if we were in Macbeth´s mind.

rboerto dijo...

A very good comment related to the stage. It might be like a grave, they being under the ground, for they are already dead when they decided to betray and kill the King.

Carmen dijo...

Tonight I´m going to Almagro to a play!!! I´ll tell you about it tomorrow if I can

Elena-4A dijo...

Hello everyone!

I've already bought Persuasion, I'm looking forward to start reading it this weekend so as to post a comment on it next week...

I also enjoyed Macbeth. I liked very much the actors, though I was slightly disappointed by Lady Macbeth (Adriana Ozores)... Whilst her husband acted quite naturally in my opinion, I found her speech a bit forced, even shouted ... In fact, she distressed me (maybe that was the aim or disturbed women usually act this way)...

At times, the monologues appeared a little boring to me, but I agree with you that the play succeeded in transmitting the anguish caused by the remorses

In any case, the decoration of the stage was one of the most succesful aspects.

Well, see you around!

marta dijo...

Paloma how are you doing with persuasion? Did you tell the others? I don´t see anybody´s comments, please tell them to buy the book and start so that we can keep talking about it and practicing!!

Carmen dijo...

I went to Almagro on Friday evening o see "La prudencia en la mujer", by Tirso de Molina. A very nice plar, amazing how relevant it is if you see from the point of view of political unity in Spain and women. Women have always had a say when they had power, the problem is that they didn´t give us the means of exercising it...they were afraid and kept us at home. Few men are for allowing women their independence, most prefer to keep them under the table they, naturally taking the throne.
"What beast was't, then,
That made you break this enterprise to me?
When you durst do it, then you were a man;
And, to be more than what you were, you would
Be so much more the man. Nor time nor place
Did then adhere, and yet you would make both:
They have made themselves, and that their fitness now
Does unmake you. I have given suck, and know
How tender 'tis to love the babe that milks me:
I would, while it was smiling in my face,
Have pluck'd my nipple from his boneless gums,
And dash'd the brains out, had I so sworn as you
Have done to this". (L. MACBETH)
Shows how ambition affects women, doesn´t it?

Carmen dijo...

Congratulations SPAIN!! We are the best in Europe......!

Natalia dijo...

I think ambition affects everyone!
People staying in power for a long time, sooner or later become corrupted.
You're right Carmen, we were the best at least in football playing!

María dijo...

we are the CHAMPIONS!!!!!!!!!! Casillas, THE BEST!!!

maría dijo...

What such ambicious woman is able to do is really frightening. Being ambicious is not bad, as long as you don´t lose your integrity.

Yesterday I started reading Persuasion, only two pages, and I understood nothing, it was, I supose, because I was really tired...

paloma 5th A dijo...

Marta I have called some of my classmaters of 5th and they said me that they are going to buy the novel and they will soon make their comments. With regards the novel I have already read twelve chapters, but I am waiting that the 4th begin to make their comments to begin to make mine.

Carmen dijo...

María, every time you start a novel you say the same thing!!! How can you not understand a thing? What about the wonderful description of Sir Walter Elliot?
"Sir Walter Elliot, of Kellynch Hall, in Somersetshire, was a man who, for his own amusement, never took up any book but the Baronetage: there he found occupation for an idle hour, and consolation in a distressed one; there his faculties were roused into admiration and respect, by contemplating the limited remnant of the earliest patents; there any unwelcome sensations, arising from domestic affairs, changed naturally into pity and contempt. As he turned over the almost endless creations of the last century, and there, if every other leaf were powerless, he could read his own history with an interest which never failed: this was the page at which the favourite volume always opened --

"ELLIOT OF KELLYNCH-HALL.
"Walter Elliot, born March 1, 1760, married, July 15, 1784, Elizabeth, daughter of James Stevenson, Esq. of South Park, in the county of Gloucester; by which lady (who died 1800) he has issue Elizabeth, born June 1, 1785; Anne, born August 9, 1787; a still-born son, Nov. 5, 1789; Mary, born Nov. 20, 1791."

Precisely such had the paragraph originally stood from the printer's hands; but Sir Walter had improved it by adding, for the information of himself and his family, these words, after the date of Mary's birth -- "Married, December 16, 1810, Charles, son and heir of Charles Musgrove, Esq. of Uppercross, in the county of Somerset," and by inserting most accurately the day of the month on which he had lost his wife.

Then followed the history and rise of the ancient and respectable family, in the usual terms: how it had been first settled in Cheshire; how mentioned in Dugdale, serving the office of High Sheriff, representing a borough in three successive parliaments, exertions of loyalty, and dignity of baronet, in the first year of Charles II., with all the Marys and Elizabeths they had married; forming altogether two handsome duodecimo pages, and concluding with the arms and motto -- "Principal seat, Kellynch hall, in the county of Somerset," and Sir Walter's hand-writing again in this finale --

"Heir presumptive, William Walter Elliot, Esq., great grandson of the second Sir Walter."

Vanity was the beginning and the end of Sir Walter Elliot's character; vanity of person and of situation. He had been remarkably handsome in his youth; and, at fifty-four, was still a very fine man. Few women could think more of their personal appearance than he did; nor could the valet of any new made lord be more delighted with the place he held in society. He considered the blessing of beauty as inferior only to the blessing of a baronetcy; and the Sir Walter Elliot, who united these gifts, was the constant object of his warmest respect and devotion.

His good looks and his rank had one fair claim on his attachment; since to them he must have owed a wife of very superior character to any thing deserved by his own. Lady Elliot had been an excellent woman, sensible and amiable..."
Clear, isn´t it?

marta dijo...

Fine Paloma I´ll be on the look out

paloma 5th A dijo...

The opening chapters of Persuasion introduce us to the main characters of the novel and sep up the problem which will drive the rest the plot.
Since my point of view the primary conflict is the difficult of saving money while keeping up the apparance of wealth.
Sir Walter Elliot had spent lavishly on a lifestyle well beyond his means.
In nineteenth century, families were strictly categorized by their wealth, rank and birth, and when Lady Russell and Mr Shepard advised Sir Walter that he and his family should retrench their expenses. He was horrified that people could think less of him for spending less money and he was shocked at the prospect of giving up comforts that he considered necessities.
As far as I am concerned in these chapters we can see an example of persuasion. Lady Russell, Mr Shepard and Anne gently convinced Sir Walter that it would be best for him to leave Kellynch Hall for a time. They persuaded him not by appealing to practicality, but by appealing to his vanity. He was induced to believe that Bath would provide him more enjoyment than he could receive in Somersetshire.
In these two chapters we can see that Sir Walter is a "silly parent" and like Mrs Bennet does in Pride and Prejudice, he precipitates the initial crisis.

María dijo...

I know why I say the same thing when I start English reading: it is because I want to read quickly, as I do in Spanish, I´m a little bit impatient, so I usually despair at the first pages... Reading twice I understand most, but I feel I don´t advance, do you know what I mean?
Reading how Austen introduces Lady Elliot, I´ve liked this sentence: "[...]and though not the very happiest being in the world herself [...]". Lady Elliot, though having had wonderful children, a handsome husband who seemed to appreciate her, and the best status, wasn´t happy. It shows the fact we need more and more to get hapiness. Are we non-conformist by nature?

maría dijo...

I wanted to write despite having had wonderful.. instead of though

roberto dijo...

CHAPTER ONE

Sir Walter Elliot reminds me Mr Ferlie a little, worried only about himself and behaving like lots of people do nowadays, that’s to say, giving just importance to the personal appearance and the money. Embracing the first one, you will have more opportunities to be admitted in society, and having the second, the world is yours.

It is common that those people lack of intelligence or cleverness and they are not able to offer something else, however, they living in their own world, you might feel jealous of them due to their blindness concerning the sentiments or thougths kept by their relatives or acquaintances.

María dijo...

Both men live in their worlds, as you say, but they have many differences. Mr Fairlie only wanted to be alone, without worrying about good manners, neither his relatives nor his guests. However, Sir Walter Elliot is extremly worried about the status and "Baronetage", being a gentleman as the best way of life, the most important. Moreover, he´s proud of his family, which is not present in Mr. Fairlie´s feelings.

maria luisa dijo...

Yes Roberto I agree with you but sometimes Sir Walter reminds me King Lear too. Three daughters and none male heir to bequeath him his properties and his name. One of the daughters is his favourite as King Lear with Cornelia. In this case the favourite is Elizabeth. She looks like her father: a selfish woman only worried about her appearance and money as her father. This egocentric father perhaps needs a mirror to contemplate his own image and this mirror is Elizabeth.

paloma 5th A dijo...

For everybody, the other day I watched a advertisement in Localia TV, which said that this TV will broadcast the film Persuasion. It is based in the novel that we are reading. It will be the next saturday at 22.00.

With regards the comment of Maria Luisa I agree with you but I believe that King Lear was more inteligent that Sir Walter because his favorite daughther, Cornelia, was the best of his daughthers. While Elisabeth does not seem to be the best of Sir Walter's daughters.

Emi - 5th A dijo...

Hello everybody!
I am Emi from 5th A. Paloma called me last week and I have already bought the novel yesterday.
I would like to thank you to all of you to follow this project during this summer and I hope to write comments every week.
My best wishes,

Emi

maria luisa dijo...

Yes Paloma, King Lear is intelligent and his favourite is his most intelligent and loyal daugther... But when Cordelia decides to mark her own position, Lear doesn’t accept her. She was his favourite while she was under his arm. Perhaps Ellizabeth should be a mole, Je,je,je, Well, reading will discover us their personalities.
And thanks for your information.

roberto dijo...

What about Elizabeth and her situation?

I am really sorry for her because you may feel that stage in your life into which you are anxious about your future and looking forward to reach something you really wish but it never seems to come true even thought your current life be easy. You keep waiting while your acquaintances and relatives go on and it is this circumstance that makes you notice years have passed not asking you whether it was enough for you.

Did I make myself understood?

Paloma 4º G dijo...

Hello! I was lost. I’ve read your comments about the book; there is something in Sir Walter that surprised me a lot, he spurn Anne’s kindness. The same as King Lear he doesn’t appreciate the things that are really important; he prefers flattery and social relations to the goodness of Anne’s heart. The same as King Lear does, he chooses the wrong daughter. Many people today do the same thing; we are so focused in other people than many times we forget our own family and true friends. We usually are very kind with people in the street or at work but very impolite at home with our mother or our brothers and sisters. Every one of us has been Sir Walter at least once in his life, Am I wrong?

marta dijo...

Emi welcome to the summer reading. I am already in Santander so I am well and cool here! I´m glad you are going to join in. Paloma 5th you are very right, and you´ve said it very well, King Lear choose his best daughter and Sir Walter only choose his because of her good looks and vanity, we are often wrong in our choice when we choose with our heart and not with our head!

paloma 5th dijo...

I agree with you Maria Luisa. Perhaps it is easy to accept people when they are always agreed with us.

Hello! Emi I am happy you have already bought the novel and you have begun to make comment with us. The next week I won't make any comment because I am going to the beach, but when I will come back I will continue with my comments.

With regards you comment, Marta
I agree with you too, but it is so difficult to choose only with our head.

Happy week for everybody.

marta dijo...

Paloma 5th, you say when they agree with us, the verb is to agree, you used it well the first time. It is true that we accept people better when they agree with us because it is more difficult to like people who tell us what we don´t want to hear.
It is also true that often we like people for their looks, we are attracted to beauty and that is unfair, now that happens much more than before, do you agree?
Write some lines so that you practce answering that question ok?

roberto dijo...

Of course it is, but it only happens when you are introduced to each other, for when you are getting to know him/her the physical appearance loses interest and it is personality that remains.

paloma 5 th dijo...

Thanks Marta. I agree with you, because nowadays the first thing that we notice of somebody is his or her appearance. But I believe that it is a big error. As far as I am concerned the most important thing of somebody is how he or she is not how he or she looks. We can see a good example of this in Pride and Prejudice, where everybody judges everybody and in the end we can see that they were wrong.
We should not judge people for their looks, social status, first impresion or for their money, but for how they are really.

María dijo...

All that you are saying is true. But we must admit that first impressions are very important, because many important things in life depend on this first impression: at work, at love, at friendship... It is a pity, but it is true, and it is sure we don´t know interesting, wonderful people for this reason. At least there must be something good in someone, something which catches our attention, to start a relationship, whatever be, with him/her. Then, dissapointments, tears and regrets come...

marta dijo...

The most important thing about somebody.
If you say: where everybody judges
you must say: we can see they were all wrong
because if not the verbal sequence is wrong.
You can´t say for how they are really
You have to say for how they really are
because this is not a question it is a nominal clause and there is no inversion. If there is no question there is NO INVERSION
This is a very common mistake but you must try not to make it.
However your writing is improving write something everyday!
How is beauty affecting our everyday life? Write a few sentences about that ok?

Paloma dijo...

I’ve already finished the reading of the first chapter. As I‘ve read the book and seen the three films several times by now, I’ve realised that my previous post was more about things that happen later than referred to things that happen in this first chapter. I beg your pardon for that. Did you see the film yesterday evening in Localia? For me this is not as accurate as the other versions are, but the Captain Wentworth is more handsome than in them. In any case there is something in all the films about Persuasion that I don’t like. In the first chapter Jane Austen told us that Anne has lost her “blossom” but she never tells us Anne should be not handsome at all or even ugly, in all the films Anne is quite ill-favoured and then never changes, not even when Jane Austen tells us she does. Another point in the films is that Elizabeth is shown as a frankly bad person, very ill-behaved with Anne, and this is neither this way in the book. She is not very kind with her sister, but that’s all.

marta dijo...

Paloma I´ve read your comment, which is very well-written(except for should be not handsome at all, what you want to say is not clear) which is good, and I agree that in the films they usually portray Anne as plain when Austen tells us she was very pretty but had lost her bloom. But I disagree with you in that Elisabeth was not that bad, Elisabeth looked down on her and was very mean, she didn´t consider her at all, that is very sad and it can take your confidence away if you are treated so by anybody let alone by your elder sister. It is a pity I didn´t see the film in localia, I really want to see an interesting Captain Wentworth, he is seldom attractive in films, I wonder whether it is because she is so plain.

Caremn dijo...

I have to do a bit of catching up with all your comments; Roberto, yours is most interesting because you have been the only one to notice the unfortune position of Elizabeth. She is a fool in her pride but she was brought up to be proud of being beautiful!! Sir Walter is a fool, who has also been pampered by his sensible Lady!! Everyone then, admired rank and he was a baronet. Were you reminded of Walter Hartright´s question to Marian "Knight or Baronet?" and Marian´s answer "Baronet, of course"? Going back to Elizabeth, it must be very painful to see your life disappearing before you and no one making an offer, admittedly she wants a Baronet, but she was in that circle at first and when they have money difficulties it is extremely hard for her, only think it wasn´t just her fault!! Why was she regardless of Anne, who was her sister and more sensible? It seems to me that it was partly her father´s fault too. In Pride and Prejudice Elizabeth is the second daughter and her father´s favourite. It is important sometimens within the family group to be someone´s favourite, don´t you think?

Carmen dijo...

María, beauty is very important. Think how many times we like people because of their looks!! We are just drawn to those who are beautiful and reject those who are not so fortunate!! We miss things...but do we care? Do we do anything to change this?

Carmen dijo...

Lady Russell seems to me to be quite silly, should have married Sir Walter...
I want your opinions on her

María dijo...

Beauty is more important than it should be, because beauty doesn´t normally fit with wit nor intelligence. So you can enjoy looking at beautiful people but it would be the only thing you could remember or admire, only an image, and it is not enough... But, what could we do to change this?
Anyway, it is soon to say Miss Russell is "silly", but she reminds me of Miss Catherick. Both of them give very much importance to the status and make everything conditional on this.

Paloma dijo...

First of all tank you Marta for your help, what I wanted to write was “shouldn’t be handsome” I’m always making mistakes without realizing it.
Maria and Carmen, regarding beauty I partially agree with you. Beauty is important but only at first. When you know the person a little, very quickly you forget his appearance. I mean, you usually find a person beauty or not depending on whether you like him or her. Do you understand what I mean? Sometimes you met a boy or a girl and you think “he or she is very handsome” but after a while you can find his or her personality is quite plain and you don’t think he was so handsome yet. He lacks something, and we usually say “Yes, is handsome but very little mainly” or something like that; how many times have we found a pretty girl like a plastic doll?
Regarding Elizabeth I totally agree with Carmen. I have to think about Lady Russell, I’ve never had considered her character before.

Paloma dijo...

I’ve been thinking about how coordinate the reading. Do we read a chapter per week? Or do we wait for Carmen to tell us when to start a new one? If we don’t do something we risk going to different speed. Don’t you think?

marta dijo...

The novel has 24 chapters so we should read 12 in July and 12 in August, that means 3 per week, is that ok?
You haven´t said anything about beauty.
What do you think of the other characters? Make a little summary of them please in that way you practice.

roberto dijo...

I beg your pardon but we had already arranged how to split the novel. Please read the first comments related to the issue. Tomorrow, we must have the Chapter III finished.

At present, I think we know little of Lady Russell though she seems to be the opposite to Sir Walter in the attitude this character maintains. In spite of both of them being widow and widower, their beliefs have no equal perspectives and the first time we notice it is when we are shown who their favourites relatives are. Choosing Elizabeth, Sir Walter focus on her beauty, however, Lady Russell prefers Anne and her personality. Besides, Lady Russell thoughts concerning the current economical situation of Sir Walter’s is more realistic than his, beyond a doubt.

Carmen, I really don’t know why you made the comment of Lady Russell being quite silly. Would you mind giving us your reasons?

It is a curious thing how Sir Walter reachs a decision to have his state rented. What is your opinion about it? Do you think people in that epoch could really act in that way to prevent of being criticized due to the loss their social position?

María dijo...

Marta, we do have talking about beauty, don´t we? It is always the beauty that determines love relations, at least at first. And it is because of that that Elliot prefers more Elizabeth than other daugther.
In that epoch what did mind wasn´t to lose all his wealth, but people realized. So if they turned into poor people, all their attentions headed for that people who surrounded them did never know their new situation. It was the dissimulation´s art to maintain, at least, the "honour and decency", to keep up appearances...
This feeling is common in every character, I think.

Carmen dijo...

Lady Russell is silly because she places rank and connections above everything else. This is why she rejects Wentworth because he is poor and socially mediocre. She fails to see that Anne would not have much matrimonial opportunity against such a sister and father and having such little influence with both,she cannot prevent them from treating Anne aboninably.
Can anyone explain this sentence to me?
"You need not be afraid of your own sweet flower-garden´s being neglected." (chapte 3 paragraph 6)
"...be he sailor or soldier." (chapter 3 paragraph 7)

Carmen dijo...

Perhaps it would be better to do 3 chapters per week and in September we start Jane eyre, don´t you think?
By the way I´ve read in a magazine what Jlo (Jennifer López) says about beauty giving her a sensation of power. It´s in the Kiosks (think I got the spelling right, but have not checked, sorry) now and remember Keats´ words "First in beauty should be first in might(power)"
i wonder if the bandiit can explain the sensation on a certain day in April...

marta dijo...

María I don´t think beauty determines love relationships, if it were so none of the ugly people would marry and on the other hand many beautiful women stay single or men for that matter. Beauty is nice and we are drawn to it but only to the beauty we recognise according to the pattern we have learnt as beautiful, the concept of beauty is different for different people, think of tribes. Beauty helps but it is by no means the only thing. Don´t you agree

Roberto dijo...

"You need not be afraid of your own sweet flower-garden´s being neglected."

GERUND SUBJUNCTIVE

"...be he sailor or soldier"

PROPER PRESENT SUBJUNCTIVE

I think Lady Russell only wanted to have Anne married to the best husband, is there something wrong?

roberto dijo...

Ok, we will do 3 chapters a week, therfore, we must read chapters 4,5
and 6 till Sunday ends.

Paloma dijo...

Maria I totally agree with Marta, I told you in my last post. For instance, I find men with blue eyes and fair hair extremely attractive and my daughters think they are like women, and so on.
Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, remember? We have studied this saying this year. Think on it literally. Carmen says that beauty gives people power, but it also slave them. I mean, many people has power because their beauty and they know it and, consequently, they are afraid of losing it. So, beauty is their power but also their master.
Another more thing: I’ve written twice and nobody, except Marta once, has answered my posts. What happen? If you disagree, please, tell me. If you agree tell me likewise, but, please! Don’t ignore me!!!!

Carmen dijo...

Nobody ignores you Paloma!!! Beauty is more important than you or Marta appear to think. We have plenty of cases in literature, mythology and the Bible itself eg. Bethsabe!I do agree, however that it has its own little hell as part of the package. Paloma correct your post as it has quite a few mistakes which are beneath you!!
Well done Roberto but I would like you to tell me: 1. what is that -s doing there? 2. why do we start with the verb? Anybody else who is willing to answer do, by all means.
As a general rule you are relaxing your writings, and I want no mistakes.
Yesterday I saw "save private ryan" on tv. It made me think that Captain Wentworth had the sort of influence that the Captain had with his soldiers. Ryan goes to his tomb to tell him that he has been a good person and that their sacrifices were not in vain and W makes the good-for-nothing Dick write his only two letters to his parents. I think that Austen describes very well the feelings that the parents had for this son while he was alive and the sudden change and sadness that ensues on realizing that they are going to meet someone who had been kind to him. there is a little remorse in this, don´t you think? How can Human Beings punish themselves so heavily? Other Christians say that it is only Catholics who do this, then whaat about this written by an Anglican and daughter of a priest?
comments, please

Natalia dijo...

Hi everybody!
Carmen, I'm afraid i didn't catch you up with the reading!I've already finished chapter 3 and I don't imagine what would come next.So far I guess how the different characters are and how do they behave. I don't want to get a wrong impression of all of them, but I must admit that up to now every character is foreseen and easy to predict. I agree with Carmen about Lady Russell silliness, but that stupidity we can find it everywhere and very often nowadays, don't you think?

Paloma dijo...

Forgive me for my mistakes, I know I’m making a lot of them but I don’t feel well and writing is very difficult for me.
Think of this: (Sir Walter in chapter 3 speaking about sailors) “It is a pity they are not knocked on the head at once, before they reach Admiral Baldwin’s age”
Have you ever met so stupid a man?
Carmen I’ve always thought that people punish themselves because to a certain extent we need suffering. The same as health is defined as the absence of illness; we can say that happiness is the absence of suffering. We only are able to really appreciate happiness if we know grief and pain. Moreover, perhaps we punish ourselves to suffer, and so, deserve happiness, It’s as if we know that in life there is the same amount of suffering as of happiness. It can also be that we punishing ourselves for things that are painful but not extremely dreadful, we are trying to prevent those things (the dreadful ones) should happen, is like to suffer a harm in order to prevent a bigger one.

maria luisa dijo...

Three chapters per week is too much for me, but I will try to follow you and squeeze my eyes and my brain…
Sir Walter needs let his properties… What about the fight between two social classes: The New Riches without land but with money and The Old Nobility with land without money?
Sir Walter’s hypocrisy: he needs money to maintain level and appearances but he seems to have scruples to accept it from the hands of a mere sailor with rank. Money is only money or perhaps is anything more?

roberto dijo...

Carmen, it is the genitive case.

Emi - 5th A dijo...

I think it is a pity what Anne had suffered in silence for so many years, but Lady Russell did what she thought it was the best for her. In this case being rich or having a high social position is something negative.
Another point that I would like to comment is the Sir Walter’s obsession with beauty. No only is he really proud of himself in this aspect, but also he demands to have a beautiful tenant. I think this is a childish attitude and not proper for a person who has economical problems. I am not sure, but I am happy about not taking part of this kind of society and not having to think in what step of the ladder I am. Maybe it is because I know I am the last one and fortunately it is not like pariah in the Hinduism.
Finally I would like to recommend you some listenings to develop our ears on “you tube”. It is TV programme where the interviewees are famous actors and I found Hugh Laurie, Dr. House, who studied at Eton. I really like the way he is and his accent. I heard, but I do not know if it was a gossip, that British people from high class are really angry with him because of his accent and his “American” attitude. The link is http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=cCLBokGxpho&feature=related

Marta and Carmen what lucky you are. It is really hot in Madrid now and I suppose you have to wear your cardigans in Santader at night. I hate this hot!!

Emi - 5th A dijo...

Sorry, I forgot to tell you the name of the programme on "you tube" because you can have problems with the link. It is "Hugh Laurie - Inside the Actor's Studio Part 1".

antonio 5th dijo...

Hi everybody.
I´ve had to work a lot since we finished our exams and I was unable to buy and read the book but i am going to do it this week promptly.In spite of this I have just read all your comments and so i can get a general picture about the novel.therefore i hope to post next remarks.
Enjoy your holidays whereever you stay.
we´ll keep in touch.

Paloma dijo...

As I told you I’ll do, I’ve been thinking about Lady Russell. At the beginning of the fourth chapter we find the very reasons she gave Anne for not to marry Captain Wentworth. These reasons are not very different from the ones that Mr. Darcy gives to himself when he falls in love with Elizabeth: a young person who has nothing but herself to recommend her or him, without connections or fortune and inferior to her/him by birth. At that time this kind of things was really important, and, in some way, they still are: Who has never spoken about a man who has “dado un braguetazo”? What about Missis Darcy and Wickham? Perhaps Lady Russell is not so silly after all.

roberto dijo...

Carmen, concerning to your second question, I think the sentence begins with the verb (be he sailor or soldier) on account of its being an inversion (conditional). By undoing it, we have: “if he be sailor or soldier” Am I right?

Beauty gives you many chances in our society and you being handsome, people are more willing to accept you than an ugly one because this quality always makes you feel better, for instance, when you are in a beautiful place. On the other hand, beauty is a subjective belief and everybody has his own preferences.

As for relationships, beauty only reflects a personal attraction between a couple and by getting to know the person you might see whether there is something else in common.

Carmen, I am a little puzzled with your comment “W makes the good-for-nothing Dick write his only two letters to his parents. I think that Austen describes very well the feelings that the parents had for this son while he was alive and the sudden change and sadness that ensues on realizing that they are going to meet someone who had been kind to him”. What do you refer to?

María dijo...

I´m reading the fourth chapter and I´ve Lady Rusell in the point of sight. I don´t know if I can speak about this chapter already, but I´ll only say that Lady Russell is very clever. She has always been near Anne until reaching her confidence and love. This daugther is the innocent, good one, and, why not, easily influenced. Mary was independent (remember I´ve only read three chapters, probably I´m wrong) and Elizabeth unachievable and super-protected by her father. Therefore Anne loves her, counts with her, how clever the Lady!, whose opinion affects her very much. So the lady has achieved to become into a mother with influence. I think she´s being such a pain!

Ok, I´ve read my comments about beauty and I´ve given the impression of being superficial. Just beauty! However, I agree with Roberto, beauty is subjective, ugly people can be gorgeous ones for others (thinking of tribes, as you said, Marta)... But of course I also think that beauty is not the only important thing, I meant it was the first!! Do you agree with that?

Carmen, I don´t understand you comparing Save private Ryan to W. I hope you hadn´t revealed anything about the novel! Anyway, you don´t need to be Catholic to be good person, don´t you think? As well as your political ideas or religious beliefs have nothing to do with being good or bad people

paloma dijo...

Estoy bastante enfadada con vosotros. Apenas puedo escribir, hago un esfuerzo enorme y nadie me contesta. ¿que pasa? da la sensación de qur aquí cada uno va ao suyo sin leer a los demás. Bueno esto está escrito en tono be enfado fingido, pero algo de verdad tiene. Perdonad el español solo tengo una mano.

Natalia dijo...

Paloma, no te enfades. En mi caso particular yo leo todos los post pero casi no escribo...no por falta de ganas, pero sí de tiempo (para escribir en Inglés debo reflexionar qué quiero expresar y cómo)es muy interesante todo lo que escribís, pero es difícil centrarse en un solo comentario, yo creo que por eso cada uno expresa sus impresiones y hace alguna referencia a lo que comenta la gente...no te lo tomes como algo personal, you know we are in the same boat!Creo que ya ayudas muchísimo participando tanto y mantiniendo este blog ALIVE!

marta dijo...

Emi,what she thought it was.... it shouldn´t be there as the subject is what she thought, ok?. Think of not in. How lucky you are! What goes with the noun and how with the adj and adv.
Otherwise it is very well-written and your ideas interesting. In those times, remember we are in the 1800 people thought like that class and family were very important and you had to marry in your own class. The English are very classy still. Sir Walter is silly too which is another point to take into account, Paloma I think comments that Mr. Darcy thought as Sir Walter but he got the better of himself because he was not silly, Lady Russell thinks also that rank should be preserved. I agree with you that Anne must have suffered a lot she lacks Elisabeth Bennet´s character and she consented without fighting she is not so interesting, fine as a person but wanting as a character.I also feel sorry for Anne but really she had got more proposals than her sisters, because Charles Musgrove proposed to her first and she refused him!So she is very Romantic in that she was crossed in love and she kept staunch and true to her first love, she withered and suffered.
Antonio welcome, please use a capital for I, or you do it out of sheer laziness???? In that case we excuse you!!

ingles dijo...

WHO IS WRITING IN SPANISH??????????????????????? YOU MUST DO IT IN ENGLISH THE IDEA IS THAT YOU PRACTICE

roberto dijo...

Paloma, I always read every single comment, however, I try to replay them as a group.

Don't be upset.

Paloma dijo...

I’ve written in Spanish because I have only one hand and it’s very slow and complicated for me writing in English, and easier to do it in Spanish because I’m more used to.
One more thing: Sometimes I find difficulties understanding some paragraphs in your posts. I must confess that I’m getting very worried because of that. I don’t know what’s the matter with me, It’s as though my English were getting worst with time. And the worst of all is I don’t know what to do, I read as much as I can but instead of learning in the end I always finish overwhelmed by the feeling that I know very little English and the way that I still have to cover is really long. Any advice?

Emi - 5th A dijo...

Marta, thank you so much for your corrections. It is very important for me to improve my English and make as few mistakes as possible. I hope you do not get bored with ours mistakes.
I agree with you that it was written in the 1800 and we have to think in classes. Sir Walter is a member of that high class and as well as the rest the most important thing is not what you have, but your appearance. That is why he prepared those fantastic balls. In addition, he is always thinking about what other people are going to talk about them if he rents his house, so he accepts to do it because the tenant is from a lower class. As far as this point I can understand his procedure. On the contrary, I do not understand the reason why he is so obsessed with his looks. I think it is natural when you are a teenager or you are looking for a suitor, but he does not want to be with another woman, so why does he have this vain attitude?

P.S. Welcome Antonio to the blog! I am really happy to hear you.

Paloma dijo...

Something very important about gossiping. In chapter four we are told that Anne received a proposal from Charles Musgrove she refused, and Lady Russell had lamented her refusal. Please read this paragraph again because later in the novel we will see how people invent what they don’t know and a very different version is given to Captain Wentworth, confirming, that way, his prejudices against Anne. Gossiping may be very harmful and ruin the happiness of many people.

María dijo...

Paloma, your problem is common in all of us, at least is also in me. Sometimes, if you don´t understand some sentence, you must not worry, because to look for new words makes your vocabulary improve. Writing here is a very good practice because it makes you think in English, though you don´t understand everything.

And one more thing: you don´t have to feel bad, because we don´t ignore you!! Each one writes what he/she wants, yes, each one goes for his/her side (how is it said?), each mad with his issue (oh my god, that is Spanglish!Today is not my day, my language is not flowing!!), but it is funny!

maría dijo...

Three chapter per week! I have no time! I´ll try. Then you say we read Jane Eyre, but isn´t that novel wich we´re reading in 5th?

Anónimo dijo...

Well, I have a question for Paloma instead of a piece of advice!

If you don't understand something, why don't you copy the sentence(s) and ask?

Anónimo dijo...

I mean, if when you don't understand somebody you don't ask him or her, then, do we feel OK knowing that what that person was trying to say is something we are going to miss?

Paloma dijo...

I don't ask because I'm ambarrassed.

roberto dijo...

Paloma, keep going!

I think you are wrong on account of your saying Lady Russell had lamented Anne’s proposal. It is she who is contented with having her waiting for a more suitable marriage though she would not have minded whether Anne might get married with the Captain.

I am to start reading chapter 6 and I have enjoyed a lot with the scene in which Anne is forced to go to care her sister Mary, it being a very funny one. By the way, have you ever felt that when you are unmarried or with no partner, people believe you are always at their disposal as if one had not anything else to do but waiting to be requested to attend to them?

Carmen dijo...

Paloma I cannot mention each one of you because there are so many comments that by the time I get to the end I´ve forgotten who has said what!!!
Roberto well done, conditional-inversion and gerund- -s subject.
I can understand Lady Russell wanting Anne to make a good match, but look around, where? As Marta says she has little character and allows herself to be too much guided, however she does not feel obligged to obey where Charles Musgrove is concerned.
There is a difference with Mr.Darcy, he does ask Elizabeth to marry when her situation had not changed!! Consider her family, poor Darcy. Anne´s family is not perfect but they are not so cheap!!!
As to what I mean, Roberto Wentworth forces or persuades Dick to write to his parents and they very naturally feel his loss once he is buried and has been so for years...then he is remmbered kindly (don´t you know anyone in this circumstance, currently?, but who would like to have Dick for a son? What do parents do sometimes with their children who are like Dick? Send them as far as possible.
there are many mistakes out and about, correct your posts or you will go backwards.
Beauty is power and vital in life!! you are just not noticed of you are ugly, María you are not superficial you are clever. And religion is important it shapes our lives... we hope for the better but that needs a lot of discussing

carmen dijo...

emi, thanks for the link, most lovely. he is great!!
hi, Antonio

roberto dijo...

Mistake: as if one didn't have

Paloma dijo...

Roberto the proposal I was speaking about in my last post was de one from Charles Musgrove and it is Jane Austen that tells us what Lady Russell feels. "She would have rejoiced to see her at twenty two so respectably removed etc.”
By the way I don’t understand your post. What do you meant with this sentence?: “It is she who is contented with having her waiting for a more suitable marriage though she would not have minded whether Anne might get married with the Captain.”
It was Lady Russell that advised Anne not to marry Captain Wentworth. Why do you say she would not have minded whether Anne might get married with him?

Paloma pidiendo ayuda dijo...

I’m reading all my post at least twice so as to correct the mistakes. I’m not able to do it better, please I beg you to show up the mistakes you find in them so that I can realise what they are and correct them in the future. I don’t want to go backwards. It doesn't matter if you aren't Marta o Carmen, please we are mates and we can help to each others.

roberto dijo...

Carmen I'm afraid I have not reached that part of the story yet.

Paloma, I meant that Lady Russell wishes to find a proper husband for Anne, nevertheless, she would have been satisfaid if Anne had married The Captain.

As for the mistakes, I always read my comments several times before posting them but I will make the effort (willingly) to do it better.

roberto dijo...

Mistake: satisfied

Paloma dijo...

Roberto, precisely that’s the point in the story, Lady Russell would had accepted Anne should be married Charles Musgrove since she was 22 and he was the second in importance after sir Walter, in addition of having a good character, but Lady Russell NEVER would accept the Captain as it was when Anne knew him. And, although Anne knows he is rich at present, Lady Russell doesn’t know anything of him. That’s why I don’t understand why you say she would have been satisfied if Anne had married the Captain. The whole story is based on the fact that Anne broke her engagement with Wentworth following Lady Russell’s advice.

Dakota dijo...

Mmm... Well, I can't work out why it is less embarrassing to describe one's feelings of frustration and one's negative assessment of what one thinks one's English is like (Holy Molly! What a sentence!) and more embarrassing to simply ask what you don't understand something...

Perhaps the reason is that depending on somebody's participation is worse than destroying one's confidence in one's skills and knowledgge?

:O :D

When you think of it, it doesn't really make sense! Am I wrong?

Kind of puzzled! :)

Anónimo dijo...

PS!!!
I mean, what's the worst people can think of us if we say we don't understand something? And what's the worst people can think of us if we assess negatively our skills and knowledge? The first thing that comes to my mind is that the second case makes people think things about your personality and that the first case just makes them think things about your knowledge. And if you are to be evaluated by people (that's the worst scenario), what's worse? -- that they think about your knowledge or about your dear self?

María dijo...

Lady Russell didn´t want Anne to get marry, whoever. She thought Anne was too young to leave the house. But as time went by, Anne continued not having a new love, so Lady Russell could think that the Captain had been the one who had married Anne. However, this had meant Lady Russell had lost her influence over family Elliot, so that it was Anne the only one who put up with her. Is that true? Maybe I am having a wrong idea of Lady Russell.

Thanks for your compliment Carmen. I also knew gramatical issues you asked us, but Roberto is too fast answering! Anyway, I´m underlining every structure which we studied this year. And I have quite a lot of them!

As Roberto and Paloma, I try not to make mistakes!! I usually write slowlier than before.

María dijo...

Dakota I don´t understand your post very well... Who is evaluating people? Are you telling us off?? :(

Paloma dijo...

Dakota, the thing is that I don’t dare to ask because I’m not sure whether I don’t understand something on account of my lack of knowledge or because a mate has made a mistake and the construction is not correct. I know all of us are working hard to do our best and I don’t want to hurt anyone, that’s why I prefer to blame myself. On the other hand my mates has achieved a great success this year and other people came from the 5th year, so it must be my fault if I find complex their language or style of writing. I have troubles understanding Gongora! Do you understand what I meant?

Dakota dijo...

About reading the classics
I've tons of trouble understanding Góngora too, even if I actually understand all the words in a poem! :) For me, to read the classics involves some previous study - the meaning of language in those times, the meanings of that particular author... That's why I prefer to read contemporary literature, too. It's not that I understand all of it, but at least I feel I understand more!!! But when I studied some classics, I did enjoy some very much, sure. But for me, they're double work, in this sense, in the sense that you need to study a bit at least if you want to appreciate them in more depth.

In the years when I read Virginia Wolf, I got very interested in Jane Austen because of what Virginia Wolf said, and then tried to read Austen, but eventually quit because I had the feeling I was not appreciating all her talent, and that in order to appreciate it, I had to work a bit on something I didn't want to work at then (I was starting to read modern and contemporary women writers - that was the 80s).

So I'm plowing my mind as I read your comments and perhaps that'll get me to read her at some point!!!

:)

Dakota dijo...

Oops! 4th message in one day!!! Can you believe it?!

On Definining Happiness. I read somewhere up there that there is a hypothesis that says that happiness can be defined as the absence of suffering, and I would like to say that in my view, the absence of suffering can be anything, and that happiness has nothing to do with that! Happiness is much more enjoyable!!! And Beau-ti-ful!!! :D Actually, when people are happy they look or they can be sensed/felt as much more beautiful! ;)

I'm very critical of our cultures because they're always putting nice things down and giving tons of merit and importance to not-so-good things! If you are a meanie, you're VERY intelligent - gosh, I find that being a good person requires much more intelligence! If you are happy, you're an idiot! - well, happiness requires tons of intelligence too - several paths of our intelligence can lead us there, but I think that happiness is more related to an intelligent gaze than suffering!

Dakota dijo...

PS: Yes, I deleted two comments, where I tried to clarify things for Paloma and María. But the topic bored me, so I thought I'd better not bore the rest of you! (No, María, I was not making accusations on people, I was trying to explain why people can feel what I thought Paloma felt.)
See youp!

marta dijo...

Emi: think of not think in. Careful you have learnt it the wrong way round.
And it is our mistakes remember the possessive coordinates with the possessor in English and it has one form, I think that was a slip but still....
I think Sir Walter is obssessed with beauty because he is silly and gives importance to the only good thing he has. I believe he let his house to the Admiral because his attorney was clever enough to say what he wanted to hear i.e. that the Admiral was good enough to rent it but not as high as him in the social level. Remember he told Sir Walter that the Admiral was the best-looking sailor he had ever seen.
Austen often has these men that are very silly,Mr. Collins in Pride and P, or very concerned with themselves or with their health, Emma´s father, men that think little of others.The Admiral on the other hand is a very nice sort of man, in Austen those men are usually secondary characters, I wonder whether she wanted to say that men are very often deficient!
Dakota I am glad you are back

marta dijo...

Very interesting comments about happiness, what is happiness? Nobody knows probably, lack of suffering is not a bad definition but happiness is more. I supposse you can only have moments of happiness, I admire those lamas who master the art of being happy, it is something very difficult to get because they say that you have to work for it, it´s not something that comes. I agree with dakota that it requires intelligence a fool can be happy, or can´t he? we don´t know how a person mentally disable feels really, we are not sure, but if you are intelligent it is something difficult to reach.

Dakota dijo...

Hello, Marta!! Thanks for the welcome back! :)
Hey, I realized I had not mentioned what Virginia Woolf said of Jane Austen's (by the way, yesterday I kept chaging the spelling of "Woolf" and eventually picked the wrong one! Ooouh!). So I checked if we had it on Talking People, and added a link you might be interested in, in both webpages, the one we have for Virginia Woolf and the one devoted to Jane Austen (check it out, anyway, we did that page because a student found the connections between Briget Jones and one of Jane Austen's heroines, or something like that! ???). Here are the links: Jane Austen is at http://www.talkingpeople.net/tp/literature/austen/janeausten.html; Virginia Woolf and her article on Jane Austen is linked here: http://www.talkingpeople.net/tp/literature/woolf/woolf.html.

Yes, happiness is such an issue! Hey, if you like, we can start a thread on that on the TP EOI Goya Inglés forum! ;) I browsed the Net a bit and found this blog and this book review, and I'm wondering whether to get a copy! http://vaindesires.blogspot.com/2008/06/six-myths.html

marta dijo...

Dakota you know that your ideas are usually "a good idea" so go ahead! I´ll look up the link you propose next year with the 4ths, now Advanced 1, we are going to do Pride and Prejudice so it is very welcome!

roberto dijo...

Some time ago, I read something very interesting concerning the pursuit of happiness in a book named “Lo que Sócrates diría a Woody Allen”. Imagine a straight line with happiness placed in the middle of its length and, on both sides, suffering and unease getting increasing as you keep going away from this point. The theory expresses the fact that the more you suffer, feeling of happiness will be stronger. Nevertheless, if you keep staying in a way of ease, that its to say, you lack of any sort of suffering, pain, or sorrow, happiness state ends and becomes comfort. Therefore, happiness seems to be something brief and related to its antagonist.

As for the book, chapter 5 is full of funny scenes showing us the “quarrel” Anne’s sister maintains with her neighbours. Have you ever been yourself involved in situations like Anne’s, when there are two different points of view, both sides believing they are right, and not only are you asked to listen to them but also support their attitude, and by the end, trying to express no word of complicity on either side, you will be treated as a traitor or guilty by both sides?. It has happened to me many times.

carmen dijo...

I have to go in the blog every day or I can´t catch up!! so many posts.
Paloma we can´t keep correcting you because then the discussion will suffer! what do you mean when you say you cannot correct yourself and that you have corrected it as much as you can? do you think I, who know you and your capacities believe that? what about this: "what do you meant.." and this one example. Get working!! ou are good at that

Carmen dijo...

Anonimo you are a complicated personality!!! ask whatever you wish to ask and feel confident that we accept everything here provided it is respectfully and politely expressed!! Be practical, like the English, and learn that for ever people will say something about us, and being Spanish that something will generally be negative! we have to learn to disregard it, though it is quite difficult and hard: we generally suffer by others a great deal!!
by the way are you a 4th or a 5th?

Silvia dijo...

Hi everyone!
I'm Silvia and I did my 4th and 5th with Carmen and Marta 3-4 years ago. I found your reading club by chance! I have to say that I find it a greeeat idea -and also that it makes me very jealous that you have such a great group to practice and comment on the books you read! I wish we have had such an opportunity. Of course we read The woman in white in 4th, which I absolutely loved. I have read all your comments and seen that you are reading Jane Austen's Persuasion. Could I join in, please pleeease???? I already bought it and started to read it so... ;)

roberto dijo...

Dear Silvia,

Everyone is welcome to our club and I am glad to have a new voice within it.

Therefore, I am looking forward to read your comments.

Go ahead!

paloma de 4º dijo...

Thank you Carmen for your help, I hadn’t seen the mistake you show me in your post. I’ll try to be more attentive.
Welcome Silvia, it’s great to have new friends here.
Roberto, the situation you describes it’s very uncomfortable. Judges study for many years to being able to do what Anne’ is asked. But after our short reading I consider Mary as unselfish, little intelligent and not a very good mother, so, the Musgroves must be right, mustn’t they? Whenever I read Jane Austen’s novels or watch a film about them I can’t help thinking how boring was their way of living. Mary is so bored that she is always waiting for someone to speak with, or for something different or unexpected to happen. How somebody can spend the whole life without doing anything? No wonder they have troubles.

Carmen dijo...

Dakota, very welcome, as Marta says your ideas are usually good! Thanks for the links, i´ll go to them but not today I´m partying tonight. Silvia, by all means join in and quickly or you will get behind fast!! How did you find us? We are going to become big!!
happiness is definately more than absence of suffering because you can suffer and be happy: many saints, martyrs, and heroes and even normal people during an illness or looking after the ill. Dakota is right, it involves intelligence and I would say Goodness, difficult to define..if we do we´ll become rich!! It involves moral and ideals for sure...
Mary elliot is funny! Not as funny as my most admired Mr. Fairlie but her comments are wonderful. However i do not want to be hard with her, Austen describes her as being better than Elizabeth and she is quite managable, which is very good if you are a fool, there is nothing worse than a fool with power!
Paloma, they were not bored, they had time to think, to go for walks, to enjoy the comtemplation of nature, to read and to mix. We have no time to sit quietly, we are for ever running around in Madrid, we do not mix, understand others, take time to be with people! we are in worse circumstances than they are

Dakota dijo...

Hey, wow! What an atmosphere! hahahahah... wow! You're an interesting bunch!!! It's true - I won't manage either to comment all I'd like to comment!
Marta, Carmen, thanks! Surely we can find connections together. When we started with Talking People we wanted to share those bits because we thought exchanging ideas would make our lives (as learners, whatever) more interesting - Thankgod for connections! hahahaha :) So great! You should start a thread on those books and I'll let you know what we've got on TP! And then perhaps we can add to TP too. Just tell us what you want. (Yes, the "us" may be spooky! hahahah)

Let me say something, just two little things for Roberto, though they are both for all of you too, if you like - Roberto, I'd like to congratulate you for your English. I've been reading you for a few months now, and your improvement is consistent and amazing! Congratulations to your adorable teacher, to all your Net compañeras and compañeros (I think there's another man, a neighbor of mine now, hahahah, :P, the Bandit, right?), and to you, because it's clear you've been working HARD AND JOYFULLY - Ah, what happiness! :P

About happiness, the position you describe, Roberto, sums up our cultural position, but it freaks me out!!! It really does! I'll have nightmares tonight! :P Let me tell you, adorable people, a little confession I don't tend to do ever -- for the last years I've focused in exploring happiness - this involved kind of running away from people, or from "normal" people I have to say, because they seem to be far too violent for any kind of intention of leading a good life, so to say! -- and obviously I can't establish truths, but I can say that supposing that vision of happiness were true, that vision which is so terrifying in my view, so deprived of hope and joy, supposing that were true in some cases, or for some people in some cases (for all of us it seems to have been true at least many times!!!, yes, I accept that) there are more "realities" on happiness, there's a bigger potential for happiness, there's "another world", possible!

For me, happiness is a state of mind you achieve as you grow ?wise?, as you learn to live, and it does include passion, intensity. But this doesn't mean you don't feel other things throughout the day. I'm not laughing my head off all day long , for instance. And I consider myself a happy one (a priviledged one, for sure!, because I'm free to be happy and I'm being happy, I'm using my chances - here I sound like Gertrude Stein!), but that doesn't erase other feelings or moods in my life - in spite of being a happy one, sometimes I feel sad, and furious, and hopeless... You name it!

I also think that the "classical" ideas on happiness are very convenient for the state of affairs in our everlasting (but not changing somehow) social organization. If we didn't have those ideas as a community, we'd have a different society! A happier one, which involves a more just society, a less violent society... Oh my! I'm galloping away! It must be the Volldamn.

:) Night night!

OK, I have a question in connection to this. If I don't spit it out (sorry!) I'll die, so here it goes - What is the world like for someone who believes happiness is only something brief and necessarily linked to suffering and tragedy?

Raquel dijo...

Well, here we are!. I'm exhausted, I haven´t finished my work in the jury for teachers yet. It's time for complaints. Well, the experience wasn't so bad, though our President had a bad temper,making the atmosphere more opressive for candidates. Anyway, I have just bought Persuasion, so I haven't started reading it yet. I will try to catch up with you in some weeks, I hope

Silvia dijo...

Hello, and thank you all for letting me join in! Carmen asked me how I found you. Well, I had finished the book I was reading (David Copperfield by Charles Dickens, you have to read it!!), and as I did not know what to read next, I looked at the EOI Goya internet site to find what books Carmen and Marta recommended for their students (because I loved the woman in white, although I haven’t forgotten you both yet for “The Magus” by John Fowles that we little poor things had to read in 5th!! Boring!!). And I found not only a book, but this reading club!! Don´t worry, I’ll catch up quickly. I’ve read 5 chapters in 2 days!!
And now, let’s start…
I think it was Carmen who said that Mary Elliot reminded her of Mr. Fairlie. Well, it reminded me to him also, but I would say that Mary’s problem is that she is begging for more attention. The moment Anne arrived and talked to her for a while and distracted her, she was able even to have a walk. I do not think that a short talk would be enough for Mr. Fairlie, don’t you think? In fact, he would ask you not to talk so much, and not so loud and please could you blind the curtains, because the light is like a knife to my nerves… God, he was the best… altough not someone to live with! But I’m sure Mary says everyday that she has a headache, and that she is in great pain here and there, and her husband and children just got used to hearing it all day long, and just answer with a yes, yes… but do nothing.
Regarding happiness... Well, it is quite difficult to define. As some of you already said, to be happy, although it could sound very typical, we should learn to appreciate what we have. How many times did you realise that you had something valuable (such as health) or a good friend, just when you lost it? To be happy could mean, among other things, to be able to enjoy little things, like good weather (where I live now you cannot take this for granted), or reading a good book on your sofa when it rains outside.
But definitely, to be happy can mean something different to different people. As Dakota said: there are people who believe happiness is only something brief and necessarily linked to suffering and tragedy… May be they need to be involved in huge things and drama; may be they understand life at another level as we do; may be they think they are too important to bother themselves with little unimportant things; may be their lives are much more interesting than our little lives… may be…

roberto dijo...

Dear Dakota,

I sincerely appreciate your being so kind to me. I always try to do my best when learning English is concerned and whether I have made the effort to improve, it is Carmen that has given me the means. However much I study, I will not be contented till I be able to master the language as she does and to use everything I have learned there, in the UK, living and being surrounded by English people.

As for happiness, I am nearly sure it can not remain in time.

roberto dijo...

I think Mary is the kind of person enjoying only when everyone keeps caring her and there is not someone else being the main focus of attention but herself.

Paloma (a secas) dijo...

Mi son Javier, who is 12, says that happiness is the satisfaction of the human desires, so the fewer desires we have the happier we are. Well, that (more or less) is what Indian gurus always say, and not only Hindu say this, the Greek Stoics also used to say the same. Diogenes lived in a barrel for years.
Children are believed to say the truth, so, perhaps my boy should be right. What do you think?

Emi - 5th A dijo...

Happy Day Carmen!! Today is your day and in Cantabria everybody is in the street, at least in Suances.
I read until chapter VIII I really like Jane Austen and this kind of romantic novels. I think you took a very good decision.
After being a little sucker I want to inform you that there is a British play in El Matadero, Troilus and Cressida (Shakespeare). It is a British Company, "Cheek by Jowl", and I am going next Wenesday.

María dijo...

Welcome Silvia! Yes, we are going to become big!! There are many comments! I´ve just finished reading sixth chapter. Next Sunday we´ll have to have read nineth, won´t we?

I´m afraid Anne is near to suffer a depression. She is only required by her sister Mary, while Elisabeth and the father think she is useless. Attending to they are those whom she share her life with, she must be suffering a lot, though she does not appear to be like that yet. However, being admirable, Anne feels proud of her intelligence. She knows she´s clever, and though sometimes she is jealous of, for example, Musgrove sisters , she wouldn´t change her situation if that meant to lose her intelligence. All Anne needs is love, to feel loved. And maybe she only receives this love from Lady Russell.

Happiness depend on optimism. People aren´t happy because they don´t appreciate they have. Neither do I, I´m in the pack. Hardly ever are we content with our job, our body, our relatives, love... life. So we are prone to be depressed. Someone said that the more we have, the more we want; therefore ambition doesn´t allow us to be happy, nor live without silly worries.

María dijo...

Hapiness depends on optimism, I wanted to say...

Anónimo dijo...

Paloma, I think your son might be quite right. Happiness could be the satisfaction of our desires, and the fewer desires we have the happier we feel. So, happiness is different for every person. For some people, a desire could be to remain thin, for other people to have more money, for others to find love, for others suffering and tragedy... Children are quite happy, because they need few things... They even forget what they wanted 5 minutes ago.
I also agree with Roberto, who said that happiness cannot remain in time. So it seems we cannot be happy for a long time... Why are we such idiots?
By the way, I've just remembered a sentence that I once heard in a film: "Being happy makes us unwary/careless"... meaning that we do not take care of what we have or what made us happy once, and therefore we sometimes lose it and by the time we regret it it's too late... What do you think?

Silvia dijo...

Last comment was mine, sorry I forgot to sign it...

Carmen dijo...

Silvia, Mr. Fairlie wants to live alone surrounded by art and comforts, undisturbed. Mary needs company all the time and is incapable of entertaining herself with a book or needle work, so they are widely different but similar in their extravegancy, their selfishness and the fact that both provide the funny side in the novel.
María, I do not think Anne is depessed because she controls her feelings very well but she must have been very frustrated seeing W so happy in the company of the Musgroves, who wouldn´t? yet she knows that she is superior to them (a little proud, the Elliot pride, perhaps?) of her supriority and thinks W has lost his taste to a certain extent...all vey logical but....proud too. When are brought up thinking your family is a good one it always comes back!!! do not forget this in life
happiness is something we have inside us, it does not come from the outside, if you see what I mean.
Go to see troilous and cressida in English!!! I cannot because tomorrow morning I´m leaving for Santnader..by the way thank you Emi.

Dakota dijo...

More on duration and feelings/sensations...

My thesis: it's pain and pleasure that are brief, or limited in duration. Suffering and happiness, on the other hand, can go on while your mind wants them to go on.

--- You can stop reading here! :D
I can go on for hours (it's such an important topic!) but I know this is too much! :D

cont.' (Although this doesn't mean that people cannot feel happy just for 20 minutes, say, or an afternoon. I'm just saying suffering and happiness CAN go on depending on our will, but we cannot physically stand even long periods or pain and pleasure. We'd die!) :D

Some comments: The thing is, I see, that we prefer suffering, culturally, as a species, as a group I mean. If we didn't, we'd have built better societies because we would have made use of our intelligence. Probably we made that choice because we haven't had enough intelligence to control our instinct - we haven't been able to overcome our fear, ultimately the fear of knowing we're going to die.

So this is our life: we build our identity validating suffering (which we feel gives us depth as human beings) and discarting happiness(the being happy = you're an idiot or unaware of life). Just do the exercise of listening to what you say and connecting it to this topic. Trace two columns and list things in each. I bet you'll learn tons about yourself. I bet you'll be surprised! You'll probably see that the JUSTIFYING/VALIDATING SUFFERING side is long and the other is rather short! Like when you list the things you like of yourself and the things you don't! This is another daily exercise we actually do unconsciously which strenghtens our habit to suffer, our addiction to suffering. If suffering can last a lifetime, why can't happiness last, too? It's illogical. It's a mental thing, beyond the real tragedies in life.

It's been going on for centuries, so what can we do? We find evidence of how popular suffering is among us in every human area! And it's a taboo to question that, incidentally. People who are not into accepting that don't go around saying they have a different experience or idea of happiness. The only people you hear dealing with that are, as somebody mentioned before, the ?Buddhists? (or some spiritual group like that). Still, with all of its popularity, I don't think that happiness is not an option and that suffering is a destiny, something unavoidable. We certainly cannot avoid our loved ones dying, but that's not what makes us miserable on a daily basis, is it? That's not what we complain about every day. We don't even talk about that, actually!

Many of the most important human achievements resulted from reaching out to utopias, but when utopias become realities, everyone forgets just before it was a utopia, everybody pretends it was always like that. We can see that very clearly with society's feminist ideas nowadays. Things which could not be imagined (but by a few) are now part of our daily life. A few decades ago women could not vote, have money, do anything without male permission, or even use the university libraries, after over 20 centuries of evolution! - and now, just look at us, having access to knowledge just like that and having time to communicate, in spite of our neverending complaints of not having enough time to do the things we enjoy most (which is true! :D )!

María dijo...

Yes, though Anne doesn´t share feelings and ideas with her father, she has inherited the feeling of pride. She is the best sister and men realize. Elisabeth is a single woman and Mary´s husband is not very happy near her. She is the one who is destined for true love, though one train went away... In fact, it was Anne who was seen, before any sister, by W and other man -I don´t remember now his name... something Elliot?-. Yes, she is not depressed, but is sad of time passing by... It is what happens in real life, something timeless in the novel: trains which went away and nobody knows if they will come back (this is not what is said happiness).

Extra info: there is an outside library at Arenal Street where many classic English books are sold. I´ve bought seven! Among them there is Richard III by Shakespeare, which I don´t know if it will be read by me someday. I need help for understanding Shakespeare!! Anyway, I´ve already got the book.

When could we meet to see the play?
Tomorrow we´re seeing Emotional Arithmetic in OV, at Cines Golem (go to the Film Club for more info), and then we´re going to a pub in order to speak English. All of you are invited.

roberto dijo...

I am really enjoying Mary’s behaviour, it being very funny. The time her husband is to leave her and Anne by themselves caring his child made me laugh. Quite absurd and selfish as the reasons are given by Mary so that she might join her husband, they are expressed so seriously that one can not help being amused by Mary's attitude. Anne deserves the Heaven for being so composed before such a sister!

María dijo...

Carmen, have a nice day, today is your day! (As you see I don´t know how to say it propely. Happy Saint to you? Or simply Congratulations? Tell me, tell me)

Paloma (a secas) dijo...

Silvia I agree. I’ve always believed that many times we are our worse enemy. Very often we destroy or leave things, situations, love or friendships that really were giving us happiness. But it is as if we get bored or used to them and forget how important they are for us.

The Bandit dijo...

Hi everyone!.

Paloma, I´m carrying out your request, so here you are ;)

Paloma and Silvia, I agree with both of you only in part of your opinion. It´s true that sometines human beings break relationships, desert people or leave aside common projects. That kind of behaviour can bring pain to beloved people. But sometimes a person makes that sort of decision not for selfishness but for necessity in order to give sense to his/her live.

Human personality needs a continuos evolution. Everyone needs day by day new stimulation to improve his/her personality and become him/herself. If our daily life is surrounded by the same kind of stimulus, one day and another day and another day, our personality doesn´t improve or even goes backwards. And that monotony, that lack of richness in our social life, in our relationships, in our aims in life, can drag us to our own destruction. That´s the reason why some people decide to break the world that asphyxiate them and become the star of their own life instead of being a secondary role.

paloma dijo...

"Chapó, chaval, l'as clavao"
I like very much your way of writing, I understand you perfectly well and your stile is clear and easy and you say what you want without unnecessary grammar complications. I usually find difficult to understand what people mean. Congratulations

Paloma dijo...

Some new threads related to chapter VIII:
First.- Admiral Croft says: "When he has married, IF WE HAVE THE GOOD LUCK TO LIVE ANOTHER WAR. We shall him……"
It is impossible nowadays anyone can speak like that. War it’s not a matter of luck anymore. There is no becoming rich in any war at present, there is only suffering. I wonder whether things ,at that time, were as Jane Austen tells us in this sentence, or she didn’t know anything about the feelings arosed from war in soldiers.
Second .- Mrs. Croft and Mrs. Musgrove speak about their feelings on being with their husbands. “As long as we could be together nothing ever ailed me, and I never met with the smallest inconvenience” - “Ay, to be sure. – yes indeed. Oh yes, I am quite of your opinion Mrs. Croft, There is nothing as bad as separation”.
What do you think? I feel like them, but , I this the normal feeling today? Or, am I quite an old fashioned wife?
Third.- “His cold politeness, his ceremonious grace, were worse than anything” Do we prefer hate to indifference? If somebody hates you, you know he or she is aware of your existence, thinks of you. But, what happen when you seem to be no more than a lamppost?, or, even worse, if you are treated as Anne’s?

marta dijo...

I´ve been reading all your interesting comments and it´s quite fun we jump from philosophy to beauty to analising the novel....to everything. Paloma Javier is very clever is his own idea, though? Or is it overhearing?
Emi you are doing fine I am slightly behind because I am preparing my course books and have been going out quite a bit. I also love these novels, I can read them forever, I always feel a little stupid because maybe one should enjoy reading something else. But it is so. However I find Anne a little too good. C.Wentworth is much more interesting, Anne always frail and weakish because she was crossed in love, she is the typical fading woman, lovesick, etc. Are men ever so?? I wonder...

roberto dijo...

Paloma, in that epoch the power of a country was measured by its strength on the sea, the UK becoming the most important one on account of its victories against Spanish fleet. Besides, I dare say they were treated as heroes on their coming back after wining the battle.

I think the reason why Mrs Croft explained her wish to be close her husband is due to the long time taken to do a voyage by sea in those days.

I completely agree with Anne’s statement. When you are either in love with or fond of someone, it is better your being treated as an enemy than being ignored, for the former situation gives you at least the belief that the other keeps you in his mind.

Roberto dijo...

mistakes:

victories OVER Spanish

wish FOR BEING

roberto dijo...

Dear class mates,

María and I are going to see Troilus and Cressida next week (23th). We have already bought the tickets and I must warn you that there are very few tickets left.

Afterwards, we will to have a chat in English!

So, hurry up!

Carmen dijo...

Just a quick post to say that I agree with Dakota about happiness. Bandit well written and expressed, Paloma he appears to be writing simply but to achieve that accuracy you have to have a great deal of proficiency. María well done less mistakes. Roberto, you are right about war, war then was important and you made money then as you make it now, Paloma!!! what about the war industry? weapons, bombs, arms trafficking, etc.!!! Some families are rich with that in USA and many other countries!!
Fantastic about Troilus... read in Sapanish before you go.
I agree with Marta W is a lot more interesting, Anne is boring, fantastic for mothers and the aged but who wants to dance with her or walk around in the garden trying to steal a kiss?? however she seems to get all the men!!! What women like and men is totally different. Gosh! I have to fly!off to a gallery and dinner afterwards. Bye

Dakota dijo...

Hey, I like an idea Marta mentions, it brings me comfort and rest! (I don't know how to explain it): that you stick to enjoying the things you already know and love, and that you DO enjoy them. Although I'm an explorer, I seldom find authors I love like I love the authors I love!!! Finding one of those is for me rare and absolutely wonderful! :)
Gotta go! I haven't got much of a social life, I seem to be in a vital stage which avoids it!, but 1. I'm preparing my little book the audios, this week (going out to the printer's every now and then), 2. 2 Y5s came for a visit yesterday (it was lovely, I gave them a matriarchal tarol reading! For me it's a game, nothing serious, but always inspiring!!!) and next monday I'm welcoming some wilder Y5s who intend to have a party here! NO WAY! I'll fight hard to instil boredome, frustration and sadness in every little moment we share!!! (Wicked laughter!) :D I hope to welcome you in September too!
Hush now!

Paloma dijo...

Jane Austen must be writhing in agony in her tomb due to me. My English friend, Ufi, is at home for three days. Imagine, she landed yesterday at one o’clock and since then to one at night I was speaking in English! At first it was really wonderful but after a while I was absolutely exhausted. Thinking in English or translating or doing whatever mi mind were doing, was really tiring.
Finally I was unable to think in English anymore and I realised I was making a lot of mistakes because of that. Today and tomorrow I will be speaking in English all the time. Sorry for poor Jane Austen but I will be kicking her language for a long time, I’m afraid.
Ufi is already awake, the great work is beginning. I must leave you. But Carmen is right: Mind your dreams, they can become a reality.

marta dijo...

Dakota, I´m sure the party will be wonderful and you´ll enjoy yourselves tremendously. Glad you like my comments, the difficult thing is to carry out what you say! At least I always find it so. As for the novel I love Anne´s comment when she was going to see C.Wentworth again " It will soon be over" It is so real! We often feel so when facing a difficult situation isn´t it true? Specially with ex-boyfriends or ex-girlfriends or any kind of exs. I think that chapter is really funny, has anybody noticed it?

Roberto dijo...

I am afraid I don’t agree with both Carmen and Marta concerning Anne’s behaviour and it might be due to their knowing more about this character than I do, for they had read the book before. Everyone makes mistakes during his lifetime and whether Anne decided not to keep her attachment to Captain Wenthworth, it was on account of her thinking she was acting properly. Besides, we must not forget Mrs. Russell has influenced her a lot in that way, all Anne’s youth long. As for her current situation, I think Anne is at disadvantage over Mr. Wenthworth and I dare say there are several reasons supporting these beliefs, they being: Everyone is fond of the Captain (but Anne), however, Anne only seems to be there to care and amuse Mary, besides looking after her children while Mary is enjoying of society events, and the fact that, as you know, when two people parted and one of them is leaving the other one, by passing time if they are to meet again, the person stayed probably will be the same as she was, but the other may have change because new situations use to change us, in some way. The latter statement is better explained in the Woman in White, the time Marian Halcombe is meeting again with Laura. “When two members of a family or two intimate friends are separated, and one goes abroad and one remains at home, the return of the relative or friend who has been travelling always seems to place the relative or friend who has been staying at home at a painful disadvantage when the two first meet. The sudden encounter of the new thoughts and new habits eagerly gained in the one case, with the old thoughts and old habits passively preserved in the other, seems at first to part the sympathies of the most loving relatives and the fondest friends, and to set a sudden strangeness, unexpected by both and uncontrollable by both, between them on either side.” Therefore, proud and regret might you can act in that way.

Paloma, What a chance! I am really jealous of you.

I’ve got some curiosities I have been observing this weekend:

1.- At length, I could watch the film named “Bagdag Café”, remember there is a thread on account of it posted in the film club, and I quite recommend that you watch it. In spite of being shot in American English you will be able to understand it well and it is a wonderful film about the friendship between two very opposite woman from each other.

2.- I am trying to watch Upstairs Downstairs’ serie, and in the last episode Keats was mentioned (“Perilous seas in fairy folonel”, from Ode to Nightingale).

3.- While watching the film “V for Vendetta”, I enjoyed with one of the characther quoting Macbeth ( I must acknowledge finding out because of other role saying that his speech had been taken from Macbeth): “I dare do all that may become a man. Who dares more is none.

roberto dijo...

I have noticed several mistakes in my last comment:

..two people PART
...probably BE the same
...might you act
... observing DURING this weekend
... one of the characterS
... finding IT out

maría dijo...

Many many comments! Roberto I agree with you about difference between those who go abroad and those who remain. The former sees more than the other, a simply strong difference. Yes Bandit, monotony destroys us, so changes are needed. Paloma, you must have improved a lot this weekend! Carmen and Marta, have you suffered some evacuation in Santander?? You must get a fright!

Chapter VII is very funny. Mary is great. I laughed when she firstly criticizes her husband for his going out to dinner, leaving theis ill son... And then, after hearing Anne´s offer, she runs away next to her husband, tremendously happy, forgetting her ill son!! Fantastic!

paloma 5º A dijo...

I agree with both Marta and Emi, I could always read this king of ramantic novels, because these keep you amused and these are easy to read.
Marta in relation with your comment about Anne and C. Wentworth I think that Anne is good woman but she is weak in all the facts of her life. She is weak with her family and her friends because she does all that they ask her to do. For example she renounced her attachment to C Wenthworth because she was influenced by Mrs Russell and perhaps because she was influenced by the prejudices of her social class because C Wenthworth didn't have enough money. I prefer the Elisabeht Bennet´s character, because she was a strong woman, and she had her ideas very clear. She didn't mind if the man who she loved had enough money or nor. She only wanted to love that man.
Maria I agree with you that the chapter VII is funny. In this chapter Mary shows us that she is a selfish person.

Anónimo dijo...

I’m here again. You can’t imagine how tired I finished the weekend. Three days fighting with English got me exhausted, and in the end I was eager to finish the task! But it has been one of most useful thing I’ve done recently. Ufi has taught me the normal way of speaking in the streets and In addition I’ve heard her speaking about a great number of subjects and using many different words and expressions. The good thing is I understood everything she said, and that really surprised me, because I thought I wouldn’t. We know more English than we think!

Paloma dijo...

I'm not "anonimo", I'm Paloma, la de toda la vida.

marta dijo...

Paloma, I agree with you that Elisabeth was stronger than Anne, but then when she saw Pemberly she was impressed and started changing her mind??? Anne is weak and Captain W was poor and had no connections but was not Elisabeth enfatuated by Wickam? I wonder.... maybe if she hadn´t been so enfatuated by him she would have thought otherwise. Darcy was not at his best when he proposed he was too confident that he would be accepted and in that he really got a setdown. I supposse Captain W must have felt terribly too when the engagement was broken by Anne who did not want to go oppose her family

Roberto dijo...

TROILUS AND CRESSIDA:

What a spectacle! The adaptation María and I saw last night of this play of Shakespeare’s using no stage but a few stools besides plain costumes showed us how Master Shakespeare words are able to fill the scene without making the audience feel uneasy just a single moment, the play lasting three hours (with a sort break) and despite our reading the subtitles.

Not only are we told a love story, its passions and sufferings but we are also shown universal human thoughts through the classic mythology.

I want you to read my favourite speech, a conversation maintained by Achilles and Ulysses. Please, make the effort to read it completely.It’s worth it:

ULYSSES
A strange fellow here
Writes me: 'That man, how dearly ever parted,
How much in having, or without or in,
Cannot make boast to have that which he hath,
Nor feels not what he owes, but by reflection;
As when his virtues shining upon others
Heat them and they retort that heat again
To the first giver.'

ACHILLES
This is not strange, Ulysses.
The beauty that is borne here in the face
The bearer knows not, but commends itself
To others' eyes; nor doth the eye itself,
That most pure spirit of sense, behold itself,
Not going from itself; but eye to eye opposed
Salutes each other with each other's form;
For speculation turns not to itself,
Till it hath travell'd and is mirror'd there
Where it may see itself. This is not strange at all.

ULYSSES
I do not strain at the position,--
It is familiar,--but at the author's drift;
Who, in his circumstance, expressly proves
That no man is the lord of any thing,
Though in and of him there be much consisting,
Till he communicate his parts to others:
Nor doth he of himself know them for aught
Till he behold them form'd in the applause
Where they're extended; who, like an arch,
reverberates
The voice again, or, like a gate of steel
Fronting the sun, receives and renders back
His figure and his heat. I was much wrapt in this;
And apprehended here immediately
The unknown Ajax.
Heavens, what a man is there! a very horse,
That has he knows not what. Nature, what things there are
Most abject in regard and dear in use!
What things again most dear in the esteem
And poor in worth! Now shall we see to-morrow--
An act that very chance doth throw upon him--
Ajax renown'd. O heavens, what some men do,
While some men leave to do!
How some men creep in skittish fortune's hall,
Whiles others play the idiots in her eyes!
How one man eats into another's pride,
While pride is fasting in his wantonness!
To see these Grecian lords!--why, even already
They clap the lubber Ajax on the shoulder,
As if his foot were on brave Hector's breast
And great Troy shrieking.

ACHILLES
I do believe it; for they pass'd by me
As misers do by beggars, neither gave to me
Good word nor look: what, are my deeds forgot?

ULYSSES
Time hath, my lord, a wallet at his back,
Wherein he puts alms for oblivion,
A great-sized monster of ingratitudes:
Those scraps are good deeds past; which are devour'd
As fast as they are made, forgot as soon
As done: perseverance, dear my lord,
Keeps honour bright: to have done is to hang
Quite out of fashion, like a rusty mail
In monumental mockery. Take the instant way;
For honour travels in a strait so narrow,
Where one but goes abreast: keep then the path;
For emulation hath a thousand sons
That one by one pursue: if you give way,
Or hedge aside from the direct forthright,
Like to an enter'd tide, they all rush by
And leave you hindmost;
Or like a gallant horse fall'n in first rank,
Lie there for pavement to the abject rear,
O'er-run and trampled on: then what they do in present,
Though less than yours in past, must o'ertop yours;
For time is like a fashionable host
That slightly shakes his parting guest by the hand,
And with his arms outstretch'd, as he would fly,
Grasps in the comer: welcome ever smiles,
And farewell goes out sighing. O, let not
virtue seek
Remuneration for the thing it was;
For beauty, wit,
High birth, vigour of bone, desert in service,
Love, friendship, charity, are subjects all
To envious and calumniating time.
One touch of nature makes the whole world kin,
That all with one consent praise new-born gawds,
Though they are made and moulded of things past,
And give to dust that is a little gilt
More laud than gilt o'er-dusted.
The present eye praises the present object.
Then marvel not, thou great and complete man,
That all the Greeks begin to worship Ajax;
Since things in motion sooner catch the eye
Than what not stirs. The cry went once on thee,
And still it might, and yet it may again,
If thou wouldst not entomb thyself alive
And case thy reputation in thy tent;
Whose glorious deeds, but in these fields of late,
Made emulous missions 'mongst the gods themselves
And drave great Mars to faction.

ACHILLES
Of this my privacy
I have strong reasons.

ULYSSES
But 'gainst your privacy
The reasons are more potent and heroical:
'Tis known, Achilles, that you are in love
With one of Priam's daughters.

ACHILLES
Ha! known!

ULYSSES
Is that a wonder?
The providence that's in a watchful state
Knows almost every grain of Plutus' gold,
Finds bottom in the uncomprehensive deeps,
Keeps place with thought and almost, like the gods,
Does thoughts unveil in their dumb cradles.
There is a mystery--with whom relation
Durst never meddle--in the soul of state;
Which hath an operation more divine
Than breath or pen can give expressure to:
All the commerce that you have had with Troy
As perfectly is ours as yours, my lord;
And better would it fit Achilles much
To throw down Hector than Polyxena:
But it must grieve young Pyrrhus now at home,
When fame shall in our islands sound her trump,
And all the Greekish girls shall tripping sing,
'Great Hector's sister did Achilles win,
But our great Ajax bravely beat down him.'
Farewell, my lord: I as your lover speak;
The fool slides o'er the ice that you should break.

Roberto dijo...

As for our reading, before finishing chapter 10, something quite interesting happened and it amazed me because one many times wishes to be in such condition though it be hard to find out how we are really thought to be.

“The sounds were retreating, and Anne distinguished no more. Her own emotions still kept her fixed. She had much to recover from, before she could move. The listener’s proverbial fate was not absolutely hers; she had heard no evil of herself, but she had heard a great deal of very painful import. She saw how her own character was considered by Captain Wentworth, and there had been just that degree of feeling and curiosity about her in his manner which must give her extreme agitation.”

marta dijo...

I like the Shakesperean extract very much, whatever Shakespeare says he says it wonderfully. Well done and thanks for putting it up.
Anne´s reflexion is good, though it annoys me that is always recovering or trying to find the necessary strength! C. Wentwoth is too patient and gallant to still give her a thought, I wonder if men act like that or whether it is just Austen´s men who are so...

María dijo...

I strongly agree with you Roberto, the play we saw was wonderful! Every actor, specially Pandarus (a procuress), Thersites (such a very funny transsexual) and Ulysses (the voice of intelligence, whose English speech I understood better), were great.

I liked it very much because 'Troilus and Cressida' is different from other Shakespeare´s plays. Not only was it surprising that the main characters did not die, but also it was Love that died.

In a scene Hector argues against and Troilus in favour of war. Here what Hector said is:

"There is no lady of more softer bowels/ More spongy to suck in the sense of fear,/ More ready to cry out ' who knows what follows?'/ Than Hector is; the wound of peace is surety,/ Surety secure; but modest doubt is call'd/ The beacon of the wise, the tent that searches
To the bottom of the worst."

They are words of a cautious person, who was so afraid of the worst that even he was able to avoid that the worst happened. Some could think that he was coward..., but I don´t think so.

You can see the play until 26th July. Go, it´s worth it.

María dijo...

A mistake in the first paragraph: Every actor [...] WAS great

As for the novel, I´m afraid that I can say that Persuasion doesn´t grip me. I have a feeling it isn´t happened very much, on the contrary in The woman in white...

Paloma dijo...

Do you remember I told you what follows? “Something very important about gossiping. In chapter four we are told that Anne received a proposal from Charles Musgrove she refused, and Lady Russell had lamented her refusal. Please read this paragraph again because later in the novel we will see how people invent what they don’t know and a very different version is given to Captain Wentworth, confirming, that way, his prejudices against Anne. Gossiping may be very harmful and ruin the happiness of many people.”
It’s in chapter 10th that we find this destructive gossiping: Louisa tells C.W: “Papa and mamma always think it was her great friend Lady Russell’s doing, that she did not. – They think Charles might not be learned and bookish enough to please Lady Russell, and that therefore, she persuaded Anne to refuse him”
But Jane tells us in chapter fourth:”Lady Russell had lamented her refusal; for Charles Musgrove was the eldest son of a man, whose landed property and general importance, were second, in that country, only to sir Walter’s, and of good character and appearance; and however Lady Russell might asked for something more, while Anne was nineteen, she would have rejoiced to see her at twenty –two, so respectably removed from the partialities and injustice of her father’s house”
And after that “But in this case, Anne had left nothing for advice to do”.
Anne refused Charles for she was in love with W. but after Louisa gossiping, he must be thinking she always do the same and has no character at all.He could have forgiven her,though, if he thought she had refused Charles because of him. We are most of the time making suppositions about things we don’t know, but we aren’t impartial and very often we make terrible mistakes. We are usually blinded by our own complex. Maybe the Musgroves would have liked Charles being more cultivated and conscious of that fault of his son, they thought Lady Russell blamed him because of it, as they did.

Carmen dijo...

hello! i´ve been unable to post anything because my in-law is here!!!! We´ve been to the bullfight to see José Tomás!! very busy. I´ve brushed over your posts and i´m very impressed with Roberto´s, you are becoming quite an expert in English classics, well done! Paloma very good news with your friend in Maddrid and chattering all the time in English, you are very lucky. I love Anne´s lack of confidence when she is meet W, it´s so real and think that Roberto has done very well in posting Marian´s thoughts before meeting Laura again. I remember fading away before friends who have just arrived from abroad, particularly when I was younger, I do not seem to be so young any more.
I have to go out to dinner again...goodbye

Dakota dijo...

On happiness! (still) I agree, Marta, but happiness, like all important complex things in life, is hard work, but then, like languages, it's far more rewarding that working hard in suffering, which is, I suspect, what people devote a great part of their lives to (I wish they didn't!)! Nice enjoyable things are also hard work, I mean!

Dakota dijo...

On happiness! (still) I agree, Marta, but happiness, like all important complex things in life, is hard work, but then, like languages, it's far more rewarding that working hard in suffering, which is, I suspect, what people devote a great part of their lives to (I wish they didn't!)! Nice enjoyable things are also hard work, I mean!

Dakota dijo...

PS: I was saying I wish they didn't because the happier people are the less violent they tend to be. And people do believe this, in the bottom of their hearts - that explains why people believe that if we were governed by people in love, things would be less unfair or violent! :) Not by Romeo or Juliet, though! They were far too young to do a good job out of designing, coordinating, implementing and monitoring policies! :D
Happy summer!

marta dijo...

Is it possible that you are less violent if you are in love? I wonder... Maybe you are less violent because you are thinking of something else, but in History we see many instances that prove that wrong that great worriors were in love and at the same time warring and very violently too. However I supposse that there must be some truth in it. The question is: Is a warrior capable of loving truly and of leaving a life full of fight and war for a love?

Carmen dijo...

María, I´m ever so glad that you saw and liked the play and in English too.
Paloma is absolutely right when she says that gossiping is a source of conflict but I cannot agree that it destroys something like love! No. Anne did not marry charles because she still loved W and felt a kind of romantic need of remaining single trying to prove to herself, thus, that her love for him had been real and strong; the sort of thing that a woman whose lover is killed at war would do. Anne was young and afraid of marrying against the wishes of her family, she was wary of poverty, she wanted a comfortable home and I understand it very well.. but then she pines away and becomes the image of suffering regret!!! this is a more difficult pill to swallow.
Wentworth who appears in her eyes as the perfect man is somewhat naively running after who???? when both girls appear to me as very far from Anne in everything, except, perhaps in their good nature!!!!
Dakota you are very right when you say that happiness has to be worked upon too!!! We can learn everything but we are not taught how to be happy!! There´s is something in suffering that attracts Humans, perhaps it is that then we can hide away and cry a little!!! and feel sorry for ourselves

Carmen dijo...

I see that you are relaxing during the week-end!!now our friends ae off to Lyme and W is for Louisa!!! Henrietta is after all after her cousin Charles!!! But Louisa is not heself,is shae? i think she is trying to please the Captain to get him, a thing women are still doing currently!! I know one to have attended Mass regurlarly with her boyfriend and never with her husband!!!

roberto dijo...

There is something I dislike about Anne’s behaviour. Being obsessed with the lost chance to marry the Captain, she should face her condition besides trying to disclose her sentiments. One many times does not realize that you must move so that you might reach what you wish, however, both pride and fears always prevent us to act and it is all because of our mind making us believe things will happen in a particular way, though, actually, they have not occurred yet.

Many things discovered in these chapters (remember today we must have finished chapter 12). Very pathetic as Louisa’s attitude is, sometimes (or always?) you behave in that way because, as Carmen says, you want to please the person you like and make up your mind to be yourself is not enough.

I am enjoying how Anne keeps observing her “enemies” and is able to see so plainly their stratagem to achieve Captain’s heart. It is a pity she does not analyze herself and her situation.

NOTE: After looking for Troilus and Cressida (the Spanish version) in several bookshops without success, at last, I have already found it and I am reading it. Up to now, the play is quite loyal to the original text.

NOTE 2: I am also watching “Upstairs, Downstairs” and, quite honestly, I am getting very impressed. The epoch being settled some years after The Victorian age, is perfectly well reflected and credible actors show us two completely opposite worlds happening in the same house. Servants’ life was very hard.

Paloma dijo...

Roberto, I’m impressed by so young a person you are. I saw “upstairs, downstairs” on T.V. many years ago. I suppose you hadn’t been born or were very little at that time. When I firstly see your post telling us you were watching the series, I didn’t realise the fact that this was probably your first contact with it. It’s been only after reading your last post I’ve been aware of that because of your way of speaking. It’s a wonderful series that had a great success when it was broadcast on T.V. back in the eighties. I’ve got the twenty-two first episodes, Have you got the rest?

Roberto dijo...

Dear Paloma, I've got the same episodes as you have, that is to say, the first and second seasons, I think there are two more left and I might be able to get them. I happened to see them saved in a wardrobe while I was tidying my clothes up and noticing it was an English series I took them without hesitating.

By the way, Anne seems to have mixed feelings concerning Captain Wentworth, they giving her reasons to be contented sometimes the times W praises her (indirectly), though, she keeps trying to avoid him once and again.

As for Lady Russell’s, appearing on the stage again, I feel puzzled with this character and I am not sure how she really is.

Emi - 5th A dijo...

Carmen, you have got me intrigued about that woman who attended Mass regularly with her boyfriend and never with her husband… If it is something of our novel I am absolutely lost. I have reached until chapter 15 and the novel has got my attention again. There are three men in Anne’s mind and they are totally different. I do not really know if it is in chapter 12 or 13 when she goes to Lyme with the Musgroves where very important things happen to Anne. Her character stars carrying the main weight in the plot as if a new woman sprout, her confidence grows and she can attract men again.

Carmen dijo...

Roberto, upstairs downstairs is a wonderful series, very well acted and very true to what life was like then. Life has always been hard for the lower classes and it is so currently. Think of the world at large, occidentals, in general,are now the upper class. Completely right about Anne: Do something and do not just wait to see if W comens back!!!! But her attitude is very normal, even currently. There are those that go after what they want and those that wait and see if what they want happens to them!!! I´m for moving but have had to admit failure..sometimes you try and fail, there appears to be a destiny as the Greeks maintained!!
Emi, i´ll tell you privately who those are...real, not fiction so women just impersonate the character their men want them to be...until they are married, partership does not count, please be on the look out, boys, you are warned!!
Paloma, your grammar has improved, well done.
Roberto try to use the gerund clause less, you can do it now and it´s a bit stiff in modern English

maría dijo...

ahaha very funny women attending Mass before getting married! Women do what they want for trapping men, and men never realize. Then, when men are finally trapped, not only do women come back to their real character, but also make men believe that they are those who have changed. I´m only referring to wicked women, of course, and to silly, simple men.

I don´t like Anne. Not only does she lack firm, strong personality, but also is a very boring woman. I don´t find her charm which seemingly is captured by all men. She is always nervous, flushed, and does nothing interesting. I´ve just finished the first volume, I hope the second be better...

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Wilkie Collins

Wilkie Collins