13 de noviembre de 2009

"GREAT EXPECTATIONS", Charles Dickens

Critics say that Dickens is possibly the best narrator in English. He certainly is a master at getting deep inside, and potraying human nature. We hope that the FIFTHS enjoy this new novel.

492 comentarios:

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María dijo...

Roberto, I really like your sentence about Pip being ashamed of his own selfishness. It is hard to move, but also it is hard for those who stay. However, life is made to be lived, each one, his own way.
Carmen, it is very curious that you stopped regretting to have "left" your "home" until you got married. Is it that people stop "missing" something when they get a new "something"? You see what I mean?
I am going to miss Biddy in the next chapters. She is very different to Pip, but interesting as character too. Does Biddy belong to the group of women who wait and wait? Or will she move on, her way? Poor good girl.
I´ve already, at last, reread second part´s two first chapters and I´ve liked every description. You can notice Pip is sad, nostalgic, because every description shows dirty, dull places. I don´t doubt it was like that, as London never was conspicuous by its cleanliness, but if you happen to be so happy -there, apparently, Pip´s going to be a gentleman, what he wished-, you don´t see things with such a negative disposition...
I also liked Mr Jaggers´s and his clients´, but even more Wemmick´s description. The first paragraph of chapter XXI is a complete judgement, just the result of Pip´s observing. Dickens is a master in descriptions, in every single way: the description of what you see, the real and palpable; the description of what you know, because you lived with it since you were born or because with time you got to know it with enough certainty -for instance, your father-; and the description of how you see, following clues, trails, prejudices, and creating judgements, false or true ones.

Roberto dijo...

A quick post before flying to class,

I always admired those men who do not hesitate when doing something. When you are witness of such a talent, the first emotion which that person makes you feel is respect; and I believe that when you respect someone, you trust him. Mr Jaggers is in command and whether he makes mistakes or not, it does not matter because his self-confidence and determination are undefeatable.

Jesús Fernández de Vera dijo...

I enjoied a lot the reading of Mr Herbert Pocket "who rather confoundend his intention with his execution". It is very funny the way he corrects Pip´s manners on the table ("Society as a body does not expect one to be so strictly conscientious in emptying one´s glass, as a turn it bottom upwards with the rim on one´s nose"), I like as well the way he convinces Pip, the harmonious blacksmith, to be treated as Handel, notwithstanding it shows a lack of personality in Pip.

Let mi quote my favourite sentence in this chapter:
"No man who was not a true gentelman at heart, ever was, since the world began, a true gentelman in manner."

Jesús Fernández de Vera dijo...

I also admire those who do not hesitate, as Roberto wrote, because I do it all the time. My friends used to laugh at me because sometimes I got colapsed by doubting whether I bought the red jacket or the brown one. I really had an awful time!. Furthermore, my mother used to call me "the eternal Hamlet", because it seems I have always had the conflict whether I be or not be.

I know it sounds unbelivable, but I am improving my determination. I am sure I will not reach Mr. Jaggers´ level, but sometimes I feel I am aproaching it!

MAR (5ºA) dijo...

Roberto, I don´t want to give you a piece of advice as sometimes it is not very welcome, but please, think about the phrase from a Latin poem by Horace “carpe diem”. You also love films and I´m completely sure that you have watched the film entlited “dead poets society”, it teaches us (apart from many other things) the meaning of “carpe diem”. Anyway,

Reading chapter two (or chapter twenty one) I want to say that Dickens shows us again and again that he is a master describing people or places. I like very much the paragraph which describes Pip´s arrival at Barnard´s Inn. It makes me have the image of the place with preciseness. And look at Pip´s words after having a look at the area: “so imperfect was this realisation of the first of my great expectations, that I looked in dismay ...” I can understand these kind of feelings as sometimes we are very much looking forward to meeting someone or to getting something and finally it is dissapointing.

María dijo...

Hello Mar... again, jeje. I completely agree with you. Pip has not found what he expected... yet. The first hours far from your home are hard, he has pain in his soul after the farewell, he feels not well, he sees the city ugly. I think everything is connected.
Roberto and Jesús (Hamlet), you are right as well when saying that Jaggers inspires respect, but also... fear, doesn´t he? People are afraid of him... And I think that he doesn´t hesitate because he doesn´t care!
Mar, thanks again for the audiobook, as complement of the book, is great! Looking forward your next coming...

Roberto dijo...

Again I am writing in a hurry and can but answer briefly to your last comments. Maria, I do like Biddy because she is sensible enough to see that Pip would not ever stay by her side. Thus she is herself, so to say, humble and conscious of her own condition. She is lovely indeed. On the other hand, you say that people fear Mr Jaggers and I completely agree with you. However, I consider it as another consequence of his showing confidence, determination and power.

Jesus you have chosen very good quotes and such a scene is really funny. You can see the real British manners to express disagreement or to correct someone else’s faults. Yes, we all normally hesitate to do things because that sense of inferiority we think we have compared with others.

Hello Mar, You are right. I believe we should all be happier if we followed such a statement (I do really like (Death poet society). I wonder why do we often have that sense of restrain which prevent us from pursuing our dreams? I started changing my mind when I met Carmen and one of the reasons why I am here is because of that.

I must fly to class but let me suggest the next topic: Pip is at last living his new life and seems to be content, however, there is something in these chapters which make me doubt whether he is living a dream or not. I mean, is he just perceiving his own reality according to what he wants to have, or is there something else, the real world waiting for him?
I would like to add something else but neither I have time nor I know what chapters you are doing.

Roberto dijo...

sorry, sorry, preventS

sorry, sorry, makeS

You see, being in a hurry does not help you at all!!

MAR (5ºA) dijo...

Maria, don´t mention it (about the audiobook). Now, you have it and we also have fond memories of our day together. Yes, our next venue will come ...

I will continue commenting on Pip´s arrival at Barnard´s Inn. How lucky he is with Herbert. Not only does he behave as a very good host but he also is communicative, amiable and cheerful. Thinking about Estella it seems that he won´t be Pip´s closest rival, as he described her as a “Tartar”.

After reading chapter twenty-two we have a lot of information about Miss Havisham and Estella, haven´t we?. Especially about the man to whom Miss Havisham gave her heart. We guessed many things by reading the previous chapters, but nevertheless, we never guessed about “a conspiracy”. Miss Havisham was cheated by two men, her lover and her half-brother.

María dijo...

Now that I´ve read chapter XXII I´ve been able to read your comments. I agree that Pip is lucky by having so lively a Herbert. I don´t know what else to say after reading your comments. This chapter is funny, sure, but above all reveiling. We all guessed the sort of thing that happened to Miss Havisham, but now we know all the details. All except where the conspirators currently are...
I like those quotes Jesús too, and "There has always been an Estella since I have heard of a Miss Havisham". Apparently Miss Havisham was all her "life" -if that can be called life- bringing up to wreak her revenge.
By the way, how do you get to use italics? I like it!

Carmen dijo...

Hi folks! You must be wondering where I was??? Well, I was on the previous page!!! I´ve been for days looking at my two last posts seeeing that the number of posts was advancing...I have been puzzling over this until I clicked that I had to click on "el más reciente"...aren´t I silly??????
María, a very good, long post full of thought and analysis, Í also like Biddy, no I don´t think she will move on, she doesn´t want to, she´s happy with her life, doesn´t expect, desn´t want to change it. I have always admired people who are happy with their lives, with what they´ve got, simple people that appreciate simplicity, I can´t help associating Biddy with children, most don´t envy, this comes with age. In my case I stopped missing my home when I had another one which i felt was home to me now...however when i am in my parent´s house everything is so familiar that I quickly switch back to the old idea of "home", I think that when you are older your home is where you are wherever you are. Wemmick is very interesting, I agree with you a master description.
Jesús, you look like Hamlet, you would be a very good cast for the film!!! A very, very good quote, it means a lot, doesn´t it? Connect it with our concept of "Señorio" "Señor" and move a step further, it is true that not all "Señores" are well-dressed or well-behaved!!
Roberto, I think that you were ready to go when you entered that classroom...in fact you very nearly left it, you thoguht I was horrible at first....so in a funny way you stayed to go...a muddle...but you´ll come back changed, not in essentials, I hope!!!
Mar,you´ve picked on the dreary description of Pip´s lodgings, I wonder if so bleak a place the first thing he achieves of his "great expectations" is not something indicative of his future...have you thought about this? London´s description is also very good at the beginning of chapter 1, particularly the comment about what the English think about themselves and their things...still have that mentality...

Susana dijo...

Since Pip has arrived in London we have learnt about many new different characters. In chapters twenty-three and twenty-four we find really good Dickens’s descriptions about some of them. I think great those about Mr and Mrs Pocket’s behaving, Mr Jaggers’ clerks or the criminals whose casts are on Mr Jaggers’ shelf.
About Mrs Pocket, something in her has reminded me Ms Joe, even there is an evident social gap between them. They both yearn to have a better life, which it’s almost impossible they get, and instead of moving on they feel unhappy and blame their husbands for it. It’s funny, but not nice, to think that this behaviour is much more common in women than in men. I see it in myself, I recognize, sometimes I am locked in a situation and I tend to keep feeling sorry or blame someone near instead of accepting that it’s nobody fault.
About Pip, I think he is discovering many new things in London. He is learning about how the Justice world works, through Herbert , he is coming in contact with insurance business (really funny the paragraph about the eggs from young insurers are hatched), he is learning good table manners. The best in Pip’s behaviour is that he wants to learn about everything, and he expresses it in a so modest and sincere way that people as Herbert or Mr Wemmick and of course Mr Pocket feel happy teaching him. I hope he keep part of this humility in future, we will see!
(Grammar point). I think there is a good formulaic subjective in chapter twenty-three, second paragraph –“Be that as it may, he had directed Mrs Pocket....-. I wish I could not only recognize but use it.

Carmen dijo...

Susan, as i was reading your post I was thinking exactly what you have written, women tend to have high expectancies concerning our future and when this fail we blame our husbands. I´m going a spet further and putting this on the "marrying a prince" myth. All the stories that one reads as a little girl end up with the marriage of whoever with a Prince that appears only for the sake of taking this normally unhappy lady to his domains in order to marry her!!! Little girls´favourite disguise is that of Princess. Well, I think the idea that your husband will make a "princess" of you in imbued in women´s nature, now when this doesn´t happen we feel cheated and fustrated!!

MAR (5ºA) dijo...

I would like to comment on someting about Mr Pocket (Matthew). He warned Miss Havisham that she was doing too much for the man she loved. I love proverbs. I think that there is a proverb for every situation. Look at Mr Pocket´s words: “no varnish can hide the grain of the wood”, the more varnish you put on, the more the grain will express itself. And what did Miss Havisham do?: she ordered Mr Pocket out of her house.

Do you remember Waddinton´s character when we read “The painted vail”. He described Walter very well (as a man with no passion, a vain main who likes admiration, etc). He knew him better that Kitty.

Kitty was blind, and Miss Havisham was blind as well. In my opinion, when we passionately love someone, we cannot see the mistakes which other people (friend of ours or our familiy can see perfectly) but what do we do? probably the same as Miss Havisham did.

Talking about proverbs and going back to Pip´s parting, there is another one: “parting is such sweet sorrow", like all the emotions together and I think that Pip also experienced that.

Anónimo dijo...
Este comentario ha sido eliminado por un administrador del blog.
MAR dijo...

Good morning: it was quite interesting our meeting with Agharim Kduka and Magdalena yesterday. Thank you very much for spending your time with us. (Enjoy your time in Madrid!)

MAR dijo...

Sorry I wrote Kduka, it should be Nduka.

Roberto dijo...

I think we all often try to blame others (normally those sharing their lifes with us in some way or the other) of our mistakes, fustration and pitiful conditon. I believe this is one more signal of our selfisnesh and as an easy way to avoid the “real fact” which is our incapacity (fear?) to face what makes us unhappy and to reject the idea that after all it was our decisions in the past that led to the current consequences. Is it not absurd?

You have not reached Chapter 27, have you? So, I cannot post nor quote about new interesting issues appearing later on. Anyway, I think you have met Drumble already and I would like to know what is your opinion about this peculiar character.

On the other hand, I have to say that once more Dickens portraits human sentiments as nobody else might ever do (apart from Shakespeare I dare to say). Love is again on the waterfront and so well reflected did I see myself when I read his description of what such a sentiment is that I felt hughely relieved becasue, don’t you feel like that when you see that you are not the only one having similar sentiments? I mean, one does not feel so alone. Charlotte Bronte made me feel the same some times when reading Jane Eyre.

Roberto dijo...

By the way, if you want to know, I'm adressing to women, how a man feels when he's in love with someone, you only need to read this novel. It is so indeed in my case. Do you agree men? (you might have to reach chapter 33 to answer this question)

María dijo...

Carmen, I am glad that you found "el más reciente". Thanks for saying what you said.
I am not reading as much as I would wish (I don´t find any time!), but as soon as I advance with my reading, I have to comment on it!
Mrs. Pocket is quite interesting..., "a treasure for a Prince", and useless, reading her book -it reminded me of Sir Walter Elliot´s "Baronetage" and his vanity about the aristocratic titles-, and doing little but complaining and spoiling her children as she was by her late father -as Sir Elliot, she is also fond of appareance!-.
Then, is Mr. Pocket a sufferer of such a wife? He seems to be always
putting his hands on his hair.
Susana, it is true that there is a resemblance between Mrs Joe and Mrs Pocket. They were easily deceived as a Prince, as Carmen says, didn´t ever come. However, while Mrs Joe was bringing up Pip by hand and blaming Joe for her stagnation, Mrs Pocket has another thing to be worried about, apart from blaming her husband for not being a baronet, which is to admire her children as "a sagacious way of improving their minds", I´d add, to marry well.
I laughed while reading that chapter because of widow Mrs. Coiler. Who doesn´t know a Mrs Coiler? Who didn´t know a Mrs Coiler, when being a child, who pinched your cheeks or even worse your double chin as if it weren´t hurtful but a caress? Or a Mrs Coiler who flattered you without any limit, over and over again, in spite of having met you five minutes before? To what extent is that done? Which is the pursuit?
As to Drummle, despite not having read completely chapter XXV, I can say again that his is another master description. Dickens provides us with so detailed a feedback that you can enterely understand -watch- a character.

Anónimo dijo...
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MAR dijo...

I enjoyed ARCO yesterday (video art, photography, sculptural pieces and performances).
Carmen explained about one esculpture to us. I looked at the prist´s face and he really looks alive. The sculptor of that piece is Eugenio Merino. This is the most visited sculpture.
Latin America is in most of the sections of the fair.
I marvelled at the beauty of some photos, por example that one in which a naked woman is having a bath. By the way, I didn´t buy any piece of art (maybe next time ...)

Anónimo dijo...
Este comentario ha sido eliminado por un administrador del blog.
Roberto dijo...

Hello,

I can see we all are getting a little bit lazy with the blog, so let us keep going.

Maria, I cannot completely agree with you concerning such a resemblance between Mrs Joe and Mrs Pocket. It is true that both characters feel frustrated before the outlook of what they expected to get and what they have achieved actually. However, Mrs Joe seems unable to find shelter and solace for her condition whilst Mrs Pocket is the sort of person whose beliefs prevailing over everything else and therefore they see hope, can you see what I mean?

Precisely, Mrs Coiler “sincerity” is funny indeed. I dare say we all meet people like that rather often nowadays and it is so pitiful to see that they are so insensible to notice that with such behaviour they show but the opposite, so to say, their compliments sound unnatural and undeserved even though they be true and you cannot help, as Pip does as, wishing to run away from their company.

By the way, I told Maria that trying to find a book of George Orwell’s named “the last man in Europe” which a friend of mine recommended me to read, I happened to come across a very interesting essay of his about Dickens and his novels. It is long but you MUST read it, mainly because of the content (Carmen if you find time, please read it as well) but also because you will find plenty of those grammar structures learning last year. Please, read it. You will not regret it. I promise.

Here you have the link:
http://www.george-orwell.org/Charles_Dickens/0.html

Roberto dijo...

Hello,

I can see we all are getting a little bit lazy with the blog, so let us keep going.

Maria, I cannot completely agree with you concerning such a resemblance between Mrs Joe and Mrs Pocket. It is true that both characters feel frustrated before the outlook of what they expected to get and what they have achieved actually. However, Mrs Joe seems unable to find shelter and solace for her condition whilst Mrs Pocket is the sort of person whose beliefs prevailing over everything else and therefore they see hope, can you see what I mean?

Precisely, Mrs Coiler “sincerity” is funny indeed. I dare say we all meet people like that rather often nowadays and it is so pitiful to see that they are so insensible to notice that with such behaviour they show but the opposite, so to say, their compliments sound unnatural and undeserved even though they be true and you cannot help, as Pip does as, wishing to run away from their company.

By the way, I told Maria that trying to find a book of George Orwell’s named “the last man in Europe” which a friend of mine recommended me to read, I happened to come across a very interesting essay of his about Dickens and his novels. It is long but you MUST read it, mainly because of the content (Carmen if you find time, please read it as well) but also because you will find plenty of those grammar structures learning last year. Please, read it. You will not regret it. I promise.

Here you have the link:
http://www.george-orwell.org/Charles_Dickens/0.html

Roberto dijo...

I forgot adding: THAT their compliments sound...

:-)

Carmen dijo...

Thanks, Roberto for this link, I´ll ceratainly read it...on Wednesday, tomorrow i have something to do and on Tuesday we are going to the lecture we are organizing in the Department.
Drummle is indeed interesting...and bad, ain´t he? Pip doesn´t like him, but mr. Jaggers does and he is always attracted to human nature and I´d like to add bad nature more than the good variety..
As a character he interests me too, he seems to be a strong person in a cold-blooded way, he seems to be unreachable, he is independent of feeling, he does not care for anything or anybody and he can be an outcast, too, I mean he appears to unreachable, I dread to think of him in a position of power...he is merciless, that´s the word i was looking for.
Thank yo, Mar for your post about the girls, I´ll copy it and send it on for them to read at school, yes Harim was quite a success, wasn´t she? Her mother has written to me the most heart-felt thank you letter that you can imagine, including an invitation to visit Nigeria, together with magdalena!!!!
Arco: I´ve liked more than on previous ocasions, there seems to be a cooling down in aesthetics, and this year we have less freedom and more art, I´ll explain myself, artists have felt that they don´t have to shock to sell and thsu they have done things beautiful and not things extravagant!! Ther is little that you would not hung in your house!! There are masses of photographs, which I still find a bit more difficult, but there are some beautiful pieces oil, collages, mixed, the only drawback being that I don´t think the´ve sold much. And there have been less visitors...I really think that some prizes, most pri<es are overrated!!! Why do we have to pay so much for everything????
I visited the "other Arco" in Casa de Campo, and I liked it very much too, very similar, but less grand, however there were some good pieces as well, for example some Mirós and one Uslé, same prizes as in Arco, don´t think that you could get them cheaper. I bought a sculpture...a very reasonable prixe, a very modest artist, but one never knows, it could be fantastic in the future, not that i think so, but I can always dream...Now I´m going to bed with my dickens, I waant to reach that chapter you mention, Roberto...

Susana dijo...

I have only reached chapter twenty-six. As Roberto’s hinting that something really interesting is coming, I look forward to reaching chapter thirty-three.
I have liked reading together these two chapters (25-26) because I think Dickens intentionally describe two situations which could be similar, I mean two dinners, but which are so different. He uses this parallelism to highlight how different characters Mr Jaggers and Mr Wemmick are.
Even Mr Wemmick is a pseudo clerk in Mr Jagger’s office he doesn’t look like a law professional. When I first read about him, in chapter twenty-one, I thought him as a sullen man, disenchanted with people around him (criminals or criminals’ relatives), not very elegant wearing those mourning rings. At home he comes out completely different. He feels relaxed, he is nice and affectionate towards his father, he is proud of the house and all his own doing, even the house is small and queer. As he says “office is one thing and private life is another”.
On the contrary, Mr Jagger is a professional, law and justice are the main issues in his life, and we see how different his house is to Mr Wemmick’s castle. The house and furniture are solid and good like him, and in the main room there is a bookcase with books about criminal law, trials,..There is no separation between his personal and professional life, really it appears not to be space for any personal life.
I’m sure that Mr Jagger’s coldness and strength are good skills to be a successful lawyer but perhaps both avoid him to have usual personal relationships with friends or relatives.

Susana dijo...

Sorry ....prevent him from having usual relationships...

Carmen dijo...

Susan, a very good comment. Yes your analysis could not be better. mr. Wemmick, who appeared to me as weird and sullen, blooms at home. Mr. Jaggers, however, I fear more within his house than without (outside), he is a terrible character... Me too, i´m rushing towards 33...Roberto
I want you all to go and see "A single Man", maría´s recommendation, she´s seen it in london...Colin Firth...I´ll try and go on Wednesday and to Renoir Plaza de España, we could go together..

María dijo...

Yes, you must watch this film! And all together! And that the Film Club be called to life!
Colin Firth was awarded yesterday with the Bafta. His being a master performance -his best after Darcy?-, the film itself is beautifully made. It is noticeable that Tom Ford is also a leading fashion designer. Well, I looking forward to hearing your opinions.
I´ve already read, at last, suppers chapters. I´ve liked them very much because they reveil lots of Wemmick and Jaggers´ personalities as well as their way of living. I will comment on it tomorrow as... it is too late!

Anónimo dijo...

Well it turns out my girl friend of 2 years has been cheating on me for weeks. I know she and her friends hang out on this site so thought it would be the perfect place to post every last nude photo and video I have of her. Just go to http://www.gf4free.com/members/surferdude23/ Enjoy!

[url=http://www.gf4free.com/members/surferdude23/][img]http://www.gf4free.com/members/surferdude23/uploads/9.jpg[/img][/url]

María dijo...

Well, after reading Susana´s comment, very accurate, I cannot add anything else but completely agree with you.
What do you think about Mr Jaggers´ liking Drummle? What has he seen in this fellow? Why does he say "If I was a fortune-teller..."? And why didn´t he use the proper past subjuntive instead of modal? Does it mean something or this detail is irrelevant?

Roberto dijo...

You are all right however I would like to say something which might explain why both characters are so different to each other. Wemmick is only an employee, good at carrying out his duties but that is all. However, who is in command of everything, who has the utmost responsability towards their clients, who has the wisdom and cleverness to keep going, who makes other feel fear and huge respect for their bissiness: Mr Jaggers indeed. Thus, he has to play his role outside the office as a means to keep showing how has the power. Am I wrong?

Well, you will probably not find anything very exciting when reaching chapter 33 but I felt so well reflected regarding what a man feels towards the woman she loves that I cannot but admire even more master Dickens.

By the way, there is something about this new stage in Pip's life that puzzles me. Have you noticed that we lack of any information about how much time has elapsed from the time he arrived in London? How old is he now? And what about his learning. I couldn't find any references so far concerning his achievemnts to become a gentleman. Can you?

Chapter 35: beautiful and Biddy, I do like such a woman. I do indeed

Roberto dijo...

Some typing mistakes,mobiles not being the best way to post comments:

I meant "who" instead "how" and obviously "he" instead of "she"

:-)

MAR (5º A) dijo...

Roberto, thank you for the information you gave us about George-Orwell. I have printed the essay (seventeen pages), so, I´m doing my best while I travel by subway etc, -I will tell you my opinion-

HELLO Maria, you suggested to us that we go to the cinema to watch the film entitled “A single man” and we will do that.

This blog is a fountain of information. Isn´t it?

MAR (5º A) dijo...

As Alysha came to our class (she is very welcome) we didn´t have enough time to comment on the chapters yesterday.

We have read the first letter in the novel. (In Pride and Prejudice we read several unforgettable letters). Biddy´s letter was written in a very polite way and look at these words: “ … we talk of you in the kitchen every night and wonder … If you consider in the light of a liberty, excuse it for the love of poor days”. Biddy knows Pip very well and she thinks that those days are part of Pip´s past. Pip didn´t send them a letter since his arrival in London. However, Biddy managed the situation and made arrangements to send Joe to London with good news for Pip. We said that Biddy is always right. I hope she be right on this ocassion as well.

I don´t want to bore you with a long post, but Pip´s words before Joe´s arrival made me feel upset. “If I could have kept him away by paying money”. “As the time approached I should have like to run away”. Do you remember the friendship between Joe and Pip at the beginning of the novel?. They had their own language with special symbols. Perhaps I´m wrong but as soon as Mrs Joe stopped managing their lives because of her illness Joe and Pip´s involvement disappeared.

MAR (5º A) dijo...

I attended the lecture yesterday.

We always say that Dickens is a master in writing. We also say that there are many teachers but not all of them are good.
In my opinion, the professor, Ph.d. (D. José María Peredo) was more than a speaker yesterday. He was a professor. He taught us.

Carmen dijo...

Mar, thanks for your praise of my brother, he was indeed good and the lecture highly illustrative of Mr. Obama´s office. I seem to think that Mr. Obama has achieved quite a few things which I did not think before. The newspapers I read concentrate on what he has not done and having the other information has been very helpful.
I think that Pr. Peredo communicates very well, he manages to put across his ideas clearly and with convinction. A nice evening for all parts.

Carmen dijo...

I´d like to tell you that I will be going to the cinema this evening, Cines Renoir Princesa, at 8.20pm to see "A Single Man", if any of you want to join me you are very welcome. I´ll double check the information:

miércoles 24.02. Sala 1 16:10 18:10 20:20 22:15

Carmen dijo...

I´d also like to comment a bit moreon those two very interesting chapters.
First of all the changed relationship between Pip and Joe, the uncomforatable moments they spend together and the inability that Pip, being the most educated, has of putting Joe at his ease to the extent that Joe treats him as if he were a total stranger, addressig him as "Sir".
Then the cofession that he would rather not see Joe, that he would pay not to see him!!! Also the fact that when he learns that Joe brings news from miss Havisham and Estella, his attitude changes, and he becomes intersted in Joe, as a messenger, mind!
Can there be anyone, anything more hateful than the Pip we see??? The only thing that makes hm pardonable is the fact that he admits to being horrible, to being unjust and slefish. Sadly the words mr. Jaggers pronounced about Pip "going wrong" are coming true...how can we sympathisize with Pip? Do you think that he suits Estella, now?
as to the following chapter, he seems to be so cowardly, so concerned with being discovered...he is very weak.
Interesting your idea, mar, that mrs. joe was the connection between Joe and Pip. I´ll come back to that.

MAR (5º A) dijo...

I will enjoy the film as well as that timing allows me to arrive on time. I will be there, at the front door, at 8:00 p.m.

I hope most of my fellow students come!

Jesús Fernández de Vera dijo...

Indeed it was very sorrowful to reckon that Jagger´s predictions came true. It sounds unbelievable that it can happen in real life, but it does happen!

At least Pip is concerned about that, and in the first lines of chapter 28 tries to solve the tension between Joe and himself, the "old chap", as Joe used to call him - and now it is Sir! -.

Notwithstanding that intention, it does not seem to be his main interest at this moment, because Mrs. Havisham´s invitation worries him more than any other thing.

Ana RG Avanz.2 dijo...

Hi! This passed week Madrid has been full of good cultural activities! Arco, Pasarela Cibeles, which I enjoyed a lot. On Saturday I went to Teatros del Canal to enjoy a play inspired by the poems and the experience of Federico García Lorca from 1929 to 1930 in New York during his stay at Columbia University.

"Poet in New York" is the title of a poetry collection written by Federico García Lorca between 1929 and 1930 while been in the Columbia University (New York) and on his next trip to Cuba, and first published in 1940, four years after the poet's death. "Poet in New York" denounces injustice and discrimination against the dehumanization of modern society and the alienation of human, while calls for a new human dimension dominated by freedom and justice, love and beauty.

The purpose of Lorca´s travel was perhaps an excuse for escape from his surroundings and that oppressed him: due to a failure and the dilemma sentimental inner feelings for his sexuality.

The best of the play: the choreography and the music searching the evocation of the Lorca´s universe.

Carmen, Mar, thanks for the invitation! I´ll be there at 8.00 pm!.

Ana Gabriela

Roberto dijo...

What a pity! Honestly, I wish I could have attended such a lecture. Besides, last year I missed it too. Precisely Carmen, here BBC does the same, focusing only on his mistakes, promisses unfulfilled and the problems still to solve. Why do we always prefer the negative against achievements? Moreover, why a person like Obama, of whom you have "great expectations", is always expecteted to make a mistake instead of the opposite?

I miss the film club too and the outings as well. Very!

Good comments regarding Joe and Pip's relationship. I cannot post anything now about the issue but ill do it later. Now it's time to Cox! so to say a chance to feel power and command others

Roberto dijo...

What a pity! Honestly, I wish I could have attended such a lecture. Besides, last year I missed it too. Precisely Carmen, here BBC does the same, focusing only on his mistakes, promisses unfulfilled and the problems still to solve. Why do we always prefer the negative against achievements? Moreover, why a person like Obama, of whom you have "great expectations", is always expecteted to make a mistake instead of the opposite?

I miss the film club too and the outings as well. Very!

Good comments regarding Joe and Pip's relationship. I cannot post anything now about the issue but ill do it later. Now it's time to Cox! so to say a chance to feel power and command others

Anónimo dijo...
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María dijo...

Susana, was it Blanca Li´s "Poet in NY"? I went to see her some years ago to the Albeniz Theatre and liked it very much!
I am totally devastated with Pip´s behaviour. Compare him to Joe... the embodiment of dignity. Pip always notices afterwards that he did wrong (the farewell and now), and his reaction is either not to move or to run when it is too late. The fact is that Joe, come what may, will always be there for him. Oh, Pip is really annoying sometimes.
Going to read the next...

Carmen dijo...

Mar, I´m so sorry I did not see your post...next time we´ll go together!!
Ana Gabriella, sorry I missed you too on the theatre, but we´ll make it next time, when we see "Bright Star" if it is ever released!!
Well, Roberto, we really miss you on the film club, in fact the film club doesn´t exist anymore. Do you think that Firth will get the oscar? which are your favourites? I wonder where my student who won the competition is, this year?? Why is it that whenever there is a competition one of my students wins???? So, perhaps I´m right when I say that mine are always the BEST!!!!
Pip is not really the best at all...what is he doing with his life? spending too much (a lovely feeling, i must admit), educating himself, only because he thinks he could have some opportunity with Estella, whom he knows will never love him and in spite of this stubbornly declares that he will love her still and for ever...well, he is not very smart, is he? I have to admit that he is very honest, though... Comments..

MAR (5º A) dijo...

Carmen, don´t worry, as you said, next time we will organize the meeting better than last Wednesday. I´m very much looking forward to watching the film entitled “Brigt star” since we read with interest the article you gave us.
Have you ever received a letter similar to that one, I mean, the letter which the poet sent his neighbour next door?... (Neither have I!)

In spite of us telling you many details about the film yesterday, we dind´t reveal all of them as we want you to watch it.

Let me draw a comparison between the film “A single man” and Great Expectations, as we always say that every subject we discuss has connection with Great Expectations.

Miss Havisham is a person who will never recover. She could have looked for a new life but she didn´t. She doesn´t want to take off the white veil which wraps herself and the memories she wants to keep. However, George (Colin Firth) recovered when he lifted the veil which didn´t allow him to see a new future. Other circumstances came. But for that he would be able to be happy again.

Jesús Fernández de Vera dijo...

I would like to write a comment about these chapters. First of all, it is absolutely sorrowful that Joe was treated in such a despicable way. But for my liking Pip during almost half the novel, I would despised him from the moment he turns out to be a moppet in the hands of the high society. I thought about what Carmen said yesterday about his happiness in the old days when his only worry was about giving a hand to Joe or attending Mr. Wopsel´s classes. I also agree that he does not look happy now. But, is it happiness what we should be looking for? I thought as well of what Carmen said in the sense that we should aspire to be good and not to be happy, and trough this tackling, happiness comes naturally.

I feel like to write a little bit about the astonishing love, that makes you feel attracted by the other person with such an strength that you could even challenge the highest walls (as Romeo did to visit Juliet). I know that my point of view is considered odd out, but I don’t think this kind of physical attraction be enough to stand by another till the death come.
However the way Pip describes so irresistible attraction, is brilliant. The rhythm, the repetition of some structures, the words used make this paragraph great.

Carmen, if you think I would be capable of reading the poem (22nd of March) with dignity and settling the honour of the fifths in a good place, I can try. If you think I would not, here is my offer just for the case there should not be anyone to do it.

Anónimo dijo...
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Carmen dijo...

Mar, we will go together to see "bright star", OF COURSE, I was not aware that it is on at the moment in madrid!! And no, nobody has ever written a letter like that to me....I don´t inspire them, I´m afraid.
Women like me are not that popular with men, Fanny was a quiet uninteresting girl, and men like to "guide", protect, women like her. On the contrary, I´m not easily "guided", I´m fun, quick of thought and tongue, unusual...and well-read (in English classics)...I don´t think that I am particularly interesting either (so perhaps I may attribute my more than common success with the male sex to this feature of my character!!!), so I have made up for this absence of correspondance with reading what others have written... and "corresponding" myself with some about many things, these last not lovers at all, well, let´s say that we have become unusual friends...
A very good comparison between Miss Havisham and George, you are very right, it is because he lifted his veil and he ripped off his "wedding Dress" that he is ready to try again, on the road of life, so to say.
Jesús, thank you very much for your offer, of course you will read and of course you will do it well, I´ll give you a difficult one, we have selected an extract from Milton´s "Paradise Lost" and we can´t give this one to anybody, you are an actor, and have me to help you, we´ll practice it.
As to Pip, yes the way Dickens describes the love he bears Estella is so good, the times he uses to describe it, how he inserts a sentence here and there(like when they are walking in the garden and he mentions that he could kiss the hem of her dress, what slaves did...).
I don´t think it is a physical attraction only, I think it is a mental issue. I´ve seen it happen, if only for a period of time in real life. I associate it with a superiority-inferiority complex. Pip is inferior to Estella, only because she has received the money before him, their origin is or could be similar, we don´t know. Pip admires her as a superior being and it is irrational, that is what makes him a slave to her and her caprice. She has the aloofness and power that you get when you do not feel anything for the other person. We´ve seen this in the relationship of Leonardo di Caprio and Kate Winslet in "Titanic", remember? It didn´t take her long to recover and marry, did it? I´d like to see Estella in the hands of someone whom she loves...and a Lord....

Anónimo dijo...
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Carmen dijo...

I´d like you to see "An Education" in English. We´ll try to go next Wednesday. At 8. Ok?

MAR 5º A dijo...

It would be nice to enjoy the film.
We will organize the meeting.

Anónimo dijo...
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Susana dijo...

Carmen and Mar I’d like also to see “An education”. Do you mean Wednesday the 10th?, because tomorrow we have “El condenado por desconfiado”. I can not attend class today but I’ll ask you on Thursday.

Concerning Great Expectations, in last chapters Pip appeared to me arrogant and proud because of the way he treated Joe, and his way of expending money, decorating his room in an unnecessary and inappropriate way and keeping the “Avenger” with no many things to do.

But now in chapter twenty-nine I see him more like an unsecure, ingenuous and even foolish boy. I agree Roberto that we don’t know very much about his learning in London, I thought that part of his becoming a gentleman was to get used to deal with people in the city, much different to those in his town. But concerning his relationship with Miss Havisham and Stella, it hasn’t changed a bit. Herbert advised him Stella was a “Tartar”, haughty and capricious and told him about Miss Havisham life and the peculiar reasons for her behaviour, but Pip sticks at admiring them and looking for their approval.
Now during his visit Miss Havisham reminds Pip that Stella was proud and insulting and that he wanted to go away from her, and remarks that Pip looks coarse and common, but nothing makes Pip react. It is terrible that after Stella’s observation about how old Pip's companions are unfit for him now, Pip discards any possibility to visit Joe. He is absolutely in her hands.

It is understandable that Pip admire and respect Miss Havisham thinking her as his patroness, but I wonder if he could ever get rid of Stella’s imprisoning. Probably blind loves are just this. I think we all have suffered this type of blindness in any moment. Pip has reminded me a relationship (I won’t give you boring details about it) in which I was completely blind, but I also remember how relieved I felt when I finally became conscious of reality, before doing something I could regret all my life. I wish Pip be equally lucky.

María dijo...

"Bright Star" was the firt film I watched in London! Now that you know that "a thing of beauty is a joy forever", you will love it, even though you have not received any letter!! I received some letter like that not very long ago, about love, and what love is about... But I am afraid that it had nothing to do with Keats´, as I believed that perception of love to be mistaken... Anyway, I much prefer other kind of letters, from unusual friends..., which are very much more entertaining, funny, witty!

Pip is a fool. Honestly it is hard to understand why he doesn´t visit Joe, now matter how much he is ashamed of him. I think we all have felt ashamed of someone who loves us and whom we love, but anyway, we make the "sacrifice" and do what we must, don´t we? Manners before morals?
It is really amazing how a love -destructive one in this particular case- makes a person forget everything worthy and go straight ahead to the failure, to the depression of seeing a love not being corresponded, even when it is warned in advanced (when Estella tells him she hasn´t got a heart). Moreover, I cannot stand inferiority complexes. It is annoying to heard all the time how many times a person is much better than the other one, in every single way. This blindness, as you call it, allows the other to drive you wherever he wants, as a puppet. And who wants a puppet beside? I am very glad, Susana, that you opened your eyes...
As to the "nature" of his love, that you are commenting as well, I don´t think either that it is about a physical attraction, but a mental one, as Carmen says. And I´d add that basically, it is a obsession. Ever since the very first time he saw her, he liked her and wanted her. No matter how badly he was treated, he simply got obsessed. He stopped being happy -or content- to desire a change, an about-turn. He wanted to know, to learn -to be her "equal"-; he wanted to move away to be a gentleman -to be her "equal"-; he despised Joe to be fit with some other more "suitable, good" people -to be her "equal". All his life since that very day was turning around Estella, his obsession. And now that he is her "equal", he is a fool.

Roberto dijo...

I wonder why Dickens put such an emphasis by describing that unconditional love and admiration Pip felt towards Joe when now we see that the former seems to have completely forgotten those sentiments. I guess Pip is like everyone else, so to say, selfish. However, he is at least sensible that he is acting wrongly and that Joes does not deserve his “despicable” attitude so after all you cannot blame him too much. I should also say that I identity myself, somehow, with this behaviour since many a time have I realized that I love my parents beyond everything else and that there won't ever be anyone like them ALWAYS giving me true love and affection. I do wish to show them how grateful I feel and that I would do whatever to give them the same. But those thoughts usually come only when everything is calmed and until I come across something else attractive to me or that I believe will bring me happiness (I mean, another kind of happiness). Yes, it makes no sense, why? Because we, at the same time, are naturally curious and like suffering.

Roberto dijo...

Carmen, this year (I should say in the last few years) there are not very good films however I will willingly tell you my favourite ones. By the way, in the Film Society here in Swansea University, I got amazed every time I speak with the chief member. He is studying such a degree and by his side I realize I do not know anything about films. For instance, for him the very best films ever made are mainly silent. The good thing is that I am learning a lot with him even though sometimes there is no picking up his accent, from London as he is. Here you have my bet:

-Best picture: “Inglorious Basterds “though it will be “the hurt locker” that will probably win (according to reviews and other awards recently given).

-Best director: James Cameron “Avatar” though I “the hurt locker” will might get it too.

-Actress in a leading role: Sandra Bullock though Carey Mulligan in “an education” is very good indeed

-Actor in a leading role: Colin Firth though Jeff Bridges seems to be the one with the most chances to win (an american role based on a country singer).

-Actress in a supporting role: Anna Kendrick “Up in the air” (please, not Penélope again)

-Actor in a supporting role: Christoph Waltz in “Inglorious Basterds” WITHOUT A DOUBT

-Writing (Original Script): “Inglorious Basterds” but again the “hurt locker” will may get it

-Writing (Adapted Script): “District 9” funny and different

Roberto dijo...

Precisely Carmen, those are the qualities I wish to find when a meet a woman and completely disagree with you when you say that men like “to guide”. I prefer to be guided though it is true that we do want to protect.

Jesus, don’t you think we all would act in the same way as Pip does under similar circumstances? Honestly, I believe I would.

Regarding Pip’s love for Stella, I can only say that HE IS IN LOVE. María, I do not think he is obsessed but truly in love. You know, when you feel like that everyone else except yourself consider it absurd and foreseeing a unhappy ending. But that is what love is, isn’t it? I also disagree with you Carmen. You say it is something mental. Could you tell me how to discern between what it is mental and what it is a sentiment? Aren’t they the same?

Roberto dijo...

You are right Susana, Pip is blind. And I am glad for him, since after all he is dreaming and wishing Stella to love him. Until the time when he realizes that “it cannot be”, he has hope that everything will turn all right and I believe there is nothing better, is it?

By the way, I have been reading a book about Woody Allen’s films which I was given as a present for my birthday (lucky of me) and found a very funny quote about our fear to death. It is not Shakespeare’s “to be or not to be” but in just one sentence it captures something similar from the comical point of view:


“I am not afraid of death, it is just I don’t want to be when it happens”

Roberto dijo...

Mistakes:

...every time I speak with ITS chief member.

everyone else considerS

...nothing better, is THERE?

María dijo...

It is easy to think you do badly when the pain is made! Yes, you find a Pip sincere, but also wicked! There is no defending him... I mean he is good in basics, I am not doubting that, but now he deserves the hardest of criticisms.
Roberto, let me tell you that yours are not comparable to Pip´s feelings. You don´t have to stop loving ones to start loving a new ones -Maria didn´t have to stop loving God when she decided to "change" Him for the Captain Von Trapp-! Love is not that exclusive!
I do want Colin Firth to win the Oscar. Only to see him again taking the little statue and to listen his nervous, funny, beautiful speaking.
I agree that the Oscar for the best supporting actor must go to Christoph Waltz.
As to Pip, he is in love, ok, but madly! He looked for it. He waited for it. He did everything to fall in love with someone. Because love does have lots to do with mental activity. I think that it is a scientific theory, not just mine... If you want to be in love and work for it, you will fall in love. And I think it is true that you can control it, mentally. You can get obsessed, whatever the reason be (he is the cleverest; he is the funniest; he is rich, provides security; he is tremendously handsome; he has connections; he is an artist...) which you blindly believe and consequently fall in love. But not for these reasons love is less true. Or you can also deceive yourself, believing you love whom you have beside... They are mental matters! What do you think? I am not a romantic as you can see... I think that this will be polemic!
I don´t think either that it is that good to have illusion in love matters. It may be thrilling to be excited about achieving your perfect lover, but when it eventually doesn´t happen, the disappointment blots everything out.

MAR (5º A) dijo...

Goodness me! the debate is very interesting as Roberto and Maria have different point of view regarging Pip´s love for Estella. I like very much the conversation between Pip and Herbert and the way Pip admitted being incapable of detach himself from Estella. In my opinion, Pip is in Miss Havisham´s hands and he knows it: “I may still say that on the constancy of one person (naming no person) all my expectations depend”. Well, when our expectations depend on another person –I´m not thinking about love exclusively- how uncertain that time is!.

I was surprised by knowing that Orlick is working at Miss Havisham´s home. He is a very strange person, isn´t he?, It was when Mrs Joe was knocked down on the back of her head that I was intrigued by this character. I dare say, the author keeps something more with regard to this odd man.

By the way Susana, we didn´t fix the date for going to the cinema yet. Carmen must be thinking about going to the cinema on March the 10th

Anónimo dijo...
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Jesús Fernández de Vera dijo...

María, it was a good comparison between "The sound of music" and the novel!

I don´t think that Pip replaced Joe´s love for Estela´s. It is understandable that Pip forgot everything he had known, because the enviroment around him is such a brand new thing...

MAR (5º a) dijo...

Good mornign: This is the information for the film AN EDUCATION:

CINE RENOIR PLAZA ESPAÑA. SALA 3
C/ Martín de los Heros, 12
March, Wednesday the 10th
• 16:00 (V.O. )
• 18:00(V.O. )
• 20:30 (V.O. )
• 22:30 (V.O. )

Anónimo dijo...
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Carmen dijo...

My God! I´ve lost my long previous post in which i complained of all the shitty business we have with the porn issue!!!!! Don´t they understand that we wnat to discuss books not other things? We don´t want to look at things we want to think about things!!!!

Carmen dijo...

María, I have received few love letters (none from Pedro) and none were good so I have not keept them (what a relief to find, if it is possible that any of my pseudo-poets ever get to read this, that they are not there to be "appear in volume form"), and me, like you have received some interesting letters from other sources.....
It is strange that both you and me have used the same word "silly" of Pip. Yes, this stubborn obssession (I totally agree with you) of a love he feels for Estella, who utterly looks down on him, is ridiculous. As to his treatment of Joe, I hope Dickens gives him the opportunity to recover from this state of things otherwise there is very little to admire in him...only his repentance and his confession. Don´t forget that his admittance of this weakness is the only thing that saves him, at the moment, for me.
I generally pity inferiority complexes...but look what they lead to: pain, as this is what they inflict on people inferior when they ahve stuck their necks out of the earth (remember the play we saw?)to become slighty superior...

Carmen dijo...

Roberto, I can´t make out what you want to say that those are the qualities you want to find in a woman....As to "be guided" well, fine that´s you, but most men want to be followed, not ordered about by a bossy woman...this normally leads to separation. Men are particular in this, the woman who wants to boss a man around should be subtle and do it cleverly....without him noticing, or rather without anyone noticing(particularly hiss friends)...What do you say to this girls???
When I say it´s mental I mean it is in his mind, inside, feeling, deep feeling is developed if you find something true to admire something real, not merely beauty, this is a slavish kind of love, Pip does not admire her courage, her intelligence, her goodness, it is a determination a perseverance which to me sounds childish...and false.

Carmen dijo...

Roberto, thakns for your Oscars, I´ve loved the brackets...you will be a writer yet!
We´ll have to see these films and this year I´ll go with the fifths...and take some of the thirds...we´ll miss you, indeed and we have lost the film blog. It´s funny but experts say that silent movies are the best... I don´t understand films as i like the voice! Now, I´ve seen Colin Firth and he really is good as a homo, his performance is so good, he is so confined within himself, yet so clear in the expression taht you can really see how he feels even though he actually says very little.
Yes, the film outing "an education" is scheduled for wednesday the 10th. Shall we say Renoir Princesa 20.30? Followed by a drink in our bar (I´ll think of you, Daffodils).

Carmen dijo...

I totaly agree with maría and not at all with Roberto!!! What i find inexcusable of Pip is that he completely rejects Joe because he is ashamed of him...come on you may hide what you are, where you come from..but if you do not accept it it will come back to you i the form..of drama. This, we have seen in "La Leti´s" family!!!!Pip, as María says, could have seen joe ocasionally but he wants to erase him from his life to make-believe that he, Pip, is better..now is he? What is he doing with his life? At the moment we only know that all he is interested in is clothes, fittings for the house and servants....not very promising, indeed! Is it understandable? Yes, of course, ahould I win the pools the first i would do is ....go shopping!!!! (sorry, folks, i never said i was any better than Pip), but the second would not be fittings for the house!!!
I´ve also liked the comparison with the sound of music, María, very well reasoned out this last post. now, Jesús, it is understandable that he feels ashamed of Joe, but not that he rejects him...this makes him base. He´ll regret it, things like this don´t work out in the end. We all have different friends from different levels, but we all see them, perhaps we don´t mix them, in the same way as we do not mix friends of the same level (they may not go together), but we see them.

Carmen dijo...

Tomorrow i´ll write about Estella and Pip when they met, she seems so much in power, he is so pathetically inferior, how can a woman admire him????

carmen dijo...

I´d like you all to see in Youtube Colin Firth getting his Bafta Prize, please watch before Tuesday.

Susana dijo...

Finally, in chapter thirty-three we have seen an honest and human Stella. She looks quite relaxed, for first time, talking to Pip, even laughing, showing something of her feelings and her life. How terrible it must be to feel herself like Miss Havisham’s puppet with no choice.

Carmen, concerning “An education”, Wednesday at 20.30, is OK for me; I’ll be there, Renoir Plaza de España. I’ll try also to watch Coin Firth getting the Bafta, we can comment in class.

M AR (5º A) dijo...

It was also in Shakespeare´work that we read about unrequited love. Talking about Pip´s infatuation with Estella, I think that he doesn´t know the meaning of love yet. We always say that Pip is blind (I´m not thinking about –love is blind- exclusively. He is blind after missing Biddy´s friendship, after having refused Herbert´s advice, after being late for enjoying Joe´s company in London, after forgetting about his family as soon as he parted. But nevertheless, he never stops surprising me. It was in chapter thryty-three that we read: “And still I stood loking at the house, thinking how happy I should be if I lived, there with her, and knowing that I never was happy with her, but always miserable” or it was in chapter thryty-four that we read: “I lived in a state of chronic uneasiness respecting my behaviour to joe. My consciencia was not by any means comfortable about Biddy”. These confessions make me wonder if we still can trust him as “the man who never made a mistake never made anything” ...

About Colin Firth getting his Bafta Prize, I will have a look at youtube today.

Are you ready for the Oscar Awards 2010 ceremony?

María dijo...

At last! I reached chapter XXXIII! Well, the more I read the more I pity Pip... He does see! He is not blind as he recognizes that even being miserable, he would love to live with her! Is he practising masochism? He likes this suffering, he cannot help it. Love is suffering, because we tend to want what is wrong for us, what hurts us, we like the "inconvenient". We are like that, unreasonable and silly, like Pip. No matter how many times we are told not to go on, we do, not to be silly, we are, stubbornly. Is it not an obssesion? Until we awake or something makes us awake... (You all have to see "An education", marvellous film, and very well performed by father and daugther -an old Woldingham girl, by the way...-, who knows if winners of Oscars tonight).
It seems as if every film (The sound of music, An education...) were connected to Great Expectations! Or may I be "obssesed" myself and see connections everywhere?
As to Estella, I don´t trust her at all. Susana says she is relaxed, etc.; however, I see her as if she were acting..., acting her own life. (Even Pip sees that, when he says to her that she is speaking as if she were someone else). I think I pity her more than Pip, because at least, Pip feels. Estella is a stone... which is not anyone else´s but Havisham´s fault.
Which is the play you are referring to, Carmen? Thanks for agreeing with me, by the way. I am very glad because that means I am understanding. Roberto, don´t get upset, as you are of course understanding as well, but I think yours is a little bit too much romantic point of view..., isn´t it? Enjoy the Oscars, Mar, you too!

Anónimo dijo...
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María dijo...

Roberto, what did you want to tell us about chapter XXXIII? I´m all ears! Going to chapter XXXIV before the Oscars...

María dijo...
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MAR (5ºA) dijo...

To my fellow students: did you all give me the letter addressed to the Minister of Education (D. Angel Gabilondo)?. If you need a copy ask me for it next Tuesday. I will deliver the letters within three or four days in Jesús Maestro.

Roberto dijo...

Dear Carmen and Maria,

Can I ask you both something? What does love mean for you? I cannot agree with your last posts. I do completely understand Pip's condition and don’t consider it childish. You are like trying to rationalize his sentiments and acts towards Estella. Love is blind and despite “impediments”, no matter whether they may be overcome or not, you cannot help feeling like you do. There is only one thing that both Pip and I should realize once for all: we cannot force others to love us. That is the real tragedy and what makes us, I believe, keep insisting on pursuing restlessly such impossible love. We always see, somehow, hope (that is what I meant María) that SHE eventually should feel the same.

The qualities I look for in a woman are independence, intelligence, braveness and “sense and sensibility”. And if she accepts me as I am, complete happiness.

I do not think Pip wants Joe to be removed from his life, it is just that Pip is aware that Joe cannot belong to his new life which would mean seeing the former suffer, double suffering indeed as Pip would, too. Thus, the thing is that Pip does know that Joe was no made to wear his “Sunday garments” and that is a burden for both of them. I must add that when you are very proud of someone, always admiring him, it really pains you when you see that person “humiliated” out of his natural environment. Can you see what I mean? It is a way of preventing unnecessary suffering on both sides and that is something of which Joe is perfectly aware.

María dijo...
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María dijo...

Roberto, it is not a matter of what love means or is for us. What Pip is feeling is love, I never denied it. But what I did is describe this love, which, from my point of view is immature. Why? Because he doesn´t know her. Or worse, he dislikes what he knows, even feels miserable. When you love a person whom you don´t know and whom makes you suffer, that means for me a kind of obssession (Gosh, have I spelt it right this time?), which comes from immaturity.
Off to the swimming pool. Cannot write more now...

María dijo...

Wow, I´ve just read what Roberto looks for in a woman! That´s great. I also look for that in a man, and I´d add also (you know, women like asking for and asking for)a man who makes me laugh.
Taking love matters up again. Why does Pip fall in love with Estella who didn´t do anything but humiliate him? Why does Pip fall in love with Estella who makes him feel miserable? What is what Pip admires in Estella apart from her beauty or her lady manners? We know that? Perhaps what happens is that I cannot understand his love because I miss some information... We don´t really know Estella as well as we do Pip, or Biddy! That´s why we all preferred Biddy instead of Estella!
As to Joe, I see what you mean, Roberto, and agreed until the moment when you say "It is a way of preventing unnecessary suffering". One thing is that Joe is aware of his lower condition and another is to cut up the relationship! I am not asking Pip for taking Joe to a dinner party with other posh ladies and gentlemen, but a visit, a short one, if he happens to be in the town where he was born. Joe won´t be included in Pip´s new life, better for both, as you said; but should not be deleted either.
However, there is a death that makes Pip reflect..., remember... and regret? What do you think about it?

Carmen dijo...

Well, some very interesting posts, Folks! Roberto,you have mentioned some really valuable qualities:" independence, intelligence, braveness and “sense and sensibility”, these are credditable for almost any relationship, for me there is another one i value very much: "goodness" I don´t think i could live with someone who was not good...though I won´t put my head on that as one never knows....but I can´t but agree with María, what qualities, what sense of humour, what merits has Pip found in Estella? Compare him and Mr. Darcy, Darcy feel for Elizabeth, he has got to know her a little in their soirees together, but Pip has only been mentally thrashed, humiliated by Estella, this is the idolatry that the slave feels for the superior being, king or god....no it´s more of an obssession. It is a feverish panting after her, but who is "her"? What does he admire? Her beauty and her haughtiness, nothing else, he is not even comfortable they are not levelled, to be deeply in love one has to feel that you are one with the other, I mean united, not beneath him/her. I mean love can be different for all of us but to be perfect it should be returned on equal terms, read Romeo and Juliet, for each the other was the the superior but both felt the same....
As to the suffering that Pip is presumably trying to prevent joe from having, compare him with Wemmick and the Aged, he loves his father and though he doesn´t take him to visit Mr. Jaggers he devotes all his evenings and part of his week.end to his pleasure. Pip wants to get rid of Joe, wnats to forget his previous life as a poor vulgar boy and Joe would be voicing his past ack at him all the time.

Roberto dijo...

I can see your point both, Carmen and Maria's, but I'm afraid I keep maintaining mine. Now I've got no time to keep insisting on the issue but I will tonight. I must change your mind.

You are right, Carmen. I should have mentioned such a quality in the fisrt place. All those I pointed have no value at all if the person has no goodness

María dijo...

Sure, goodness is the most important quality.
Let´s see how you, Roberto, manage to change our mind... Quite difficult, I am afraid!
I have completely loved chapter XXXV. Have you read it? I don´t want to spoil!

Anónimo dijo...
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Roberto dijo...

Carmen has mantioned Romeo & Juliet as the ideal of love. An I do agree with that. Maria, I believe you are refering to the practical love, so to say, the one taking place normally when we balnce all the qualities surronding the peson you're fond of such as character, beauty, educating and social status. That is the reason why I can't agree with you, Maria. As for Carmen, I do admit that pure love must be shared between both sides, however, I do believe it possible to occur only to one. Why cannot that happen? Pip is in love and that's what matters. Does it love must to be explained? He can't help feeling so despite acknowledging the same facts as you both have pointed out. And let me tell you something, was it not Wilde that said in Lady Windemere's fan that the less you know the person, the better in order to get married? (well, this refers to marriage but I dare say we might apply it in this case,'since acording to Maria's point of view, in time, we can fall in love with the person when we have discovered how they really are.

As for Joe and Pip, I do understand the latter's attitude ( this does not mean that I approve it nor share it).He had to go for what he wanted to achieve. He always felt guilty for having parted Joe but meant not to do wrong. Besides, joe belongs to another sphere, why then making him abandon it to go into other completely different and which will make him uncomfortable? On the other hand, Pip being so proud of him, should not have acted like that but he did, why, because we are all like that: we first, then the rest regarless what they have done for us in the past. That's life

Roberto dijo...

must BE, must BE, must BE, must BE.

María dijo...

Roberto, I don´t expect Joe to be moved to another sphere, but to be visited and not forgotten. I think Pip is horrible at that and hope he soon regrets it, before Joe passes away. Lots of people go away from their houses to get what they want, and that doesn´t become into a reason to forget them. Honestly good people don´t do that... Pip is not being a good boy at the moment. And Herbert is not a good friend.
As to love matters (how interesting!): yes, you are right Roberto, I am very practical, not romantic at all, and I don´t believe in love at first time, so to say, a love which comes from nothing. First I like someone, for whatever reason (physically or mentally), then I try to know him, and if I like what I have found, I fall in love. And of course it can happen only to one person!! That´s what love not corresponded is! Romeo and Juliet´s love is the "ideal" love because is it impossible to get! (Well, nothing is impossible). As to Pip, he first saw, and inmediately loved, and suffered, and suffered again, and felt miserable, and was uncountable times humiliated... Yes, without any explanation, he is loving her. Is it not, Roberto, an unreasonable and obssessive love? Or do you think that it is a pure love, perfect one, that makes you feel great despite the other not feeling the same?
Wilde was right as usual. If you get to know your husband/wife, then is when you ask for the divorce! Witty Wilde!
Anyway Roberto, we don´t have to agree always, do we? In fact, disagreeing is enriching indeed!

María dijo...

I meant love at first sight.

MAR (5ºA) dijo...

We have watched the film “An Education” tonight. We enjoyed it and also a nightcap after the film. By the way, Roberto and Maria “el cafe de las estrellas” is closed at the moment, but we found other place (nice one). Carmen missed you!.

In my opinon, Jenny (the daugther) and her parents were dazzled by money. Jenny discovered a new world, socially better. It lets me make a comparison between Jenny and Pip and now that “they know finer things, that they have seen the club, they despise what they were happy with before ...”.

Jenny was cappable of changing. I wonder if Pip will be cappable of changing.

I´m also thinking about how important teachers are in our lives!. The principal of the school (Emma Thompson, her performance was superb. Not only does she perform with her voice and her face but she also performes with her silence and movements) was a negative reference in Jenny´s life, but nevertheless, the teacher of literature was crucial in Jenny´s life.

MAR (5º a) dijo...

Sorry about this mistake:

I WROTE: we found other place
IT SHOULD BE: we found another place

Roberto dijo...

Maria I believe that love gives you pain as well as happiness.

Hello Mar,

I was wandering, why do women always feel attracted by men like the one making Jenny get so fond of him? Honestly I cannot see the point. The ones who really are worth falling in love with do never have a chance!!

María dijo...

Hello Mar! I also miss this outings with the school indeed, to the theatre, to the cinema, and the nightcaps afterwards....... "El café de las estrellas" is waiting for our coming back! (Sometimes, Roberto, I can be a little bit romantic).
"An education" is a really good film and I agree with you that Thompson is superb. And the father! Alfred Molina is so credible in his role!
Roberto -funny you...-, some women are always attracted by the wrong men... It always happens to me! I always choose the wrong one! I wish I could change that and choose better next times... I would have found Daniel (wasn´t this his name?) attractive as well as Jenny, who wouldn´t?
Have you read chapter XXXVIII? Where are you reading? I am lost again.

MAR 5º A dijo...

Hello Maria, David´s name is PERTER SARSGAARD. In spite of him being a handsome man he is detestable, isn´t he?

By the way we have already read chapters 36 and 37.

Carmen dijo...

Roberto, I´ve read your first post and though well argued I cannot agree. Love, to be perfect, complete, has to be returned, otherwise it quickly changes to something else, or dies out...Consider Saints, saint Teresa of Avila loved Jesus very much, there was no physical contact betweem them but there was spiritual contact, she was convinced that He loved her!!!
you may mention "Sense and Sensibility" and the one-sided love the Captain bore the second sister (can´t remember her name now, and as my computer is crazy I want to publish this before the connection disappears again), but she eventually returned it...
I´m sure one person can "love" another for a time and admire her/him for ever, but that is not complete love, there has to be a counterbalance if not you become the other person´s slave and that is not correct as a feeling.
As to Pip, Pip does not want joe in his life...unless he educates himself, it is Joe the one to tell Pip that he will be at the forge if Pip should want to see him...simple Joe realizes what is taking pip chapters to admit.
María, what I see in chapter XXXV is a patronizing Pip, how much changed he is!! How confident with those he feels below him and how exultant he is of being "nice" to them!!! yes, of course i understand Pip, and sympathizise with him, in all except for Estella´s issue, but...he is, indeed, immature and ignorant, how differnert is his nature to that of Oliver Twist, or David Copperfield, sympathizise, yes....understand maybe, but excuse him...no, he shows no sign of repentance as yet...

Anónimo dijo...
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María dijo...

Due to Carmen´s computer being on and off and her staying in Brussels, she won´t be able to post any comment here until she comes back. So be patient and miss her. In the meanwhile, you certainly can (must) keep posting.
Have a very nice weekend you all!

Anónimo dijo...
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María dijo...
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María dijo...

I found a cynical Pip in chapter XXXV, and insensitive. Not only did he forget his love for Joe and Biddy but also lost every respect for them. I missed some affective gesture towards Joe after his sister´s funeral, and honorable words towards Biddy. We found quite the opposite! If he doesn´t feel love for them anymore, because it might be deleted by his newly gentlemen´s pride, why doesn´t he show a sort of humility or sincerity, recognizing he´d rather have a life without them? However, he, stupidly, promises them he will return. He even feels offended -"hurt"- by Biddy´s distrust! Well done, Biddy.
Honestly, Pip is unbearable!
So, you may imagine that when we discover who Pip´s "patron" is, I am very, very glad... Can you believe that I was glad when his expections found themselves dissapointed? After all, I am horrible too!; but I don´t feel he deserves his expectations being satisfied. Honestly, to recover my sympthize to him, he will have to regret many, many things...

Anónimo dijo...
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MAR (5º A) dijo...

Maria you said that Pip will have to regret many, many things...

But nevertheless, I don´t know yet if he will be capable of changing!.

Continuing with your post, I would also like to comment on Biddy and Pip´s meeting after Mrs Joe´s burial. In my opinion, Biddy´s words were more fair than generous. Pip thinks about "giving up some points" with regard to his conversation with Biddy, but it is not a matter of "giving up some points". Biddy changed her attitude towards Pip as a result of his behaviour. She is, as Pip is, convinced that he won´t visit Joe frequently.
The way he talks: "I shall be often down here now. I am not going to leave poor Joe alone" is different from the way he thinks and behaves: "... the mists were rising as I walked away. If they disclosed to me, as I suspect they did, that I should not come back, and that Biddy was quite right, all I can say is -they were quite right too".

I have met more than one Pip in my life!.

Susana dijo...

Reading chapter XXXV I have had the same feeling as Maria. Pip should honestly decide whether he doesn’t want Joe and Biddy in his life anymore. Why does he keep that ambiguous behaviour?, who is he trying to deceive?. Joe and Biddy appear to know him better than himself. I think Biddy keeps quiet because she doesn’t want to argue with Pip, she knows, because of her previous experiences, that probably Pip will refuse to acknowledge his unfair behaviour. She is clever and she has realized that Pip must face up to it by himself.
However, how differently Pip behaves with Herbert in chapter XXXVI and XXXVII. Mr Wemmick (who I like more and more) gives Pip good advice –“a man should never invest portable property in a friend, unless he wants to get rid of the friend”, but Pip is determined to help Herbert under any circumstances, and he even goes to Walworth to find the best way to do it.
I know that Herbert belongs to Pip’s new world and Joe and Biddy to the old one, but how is it possible that he could be so generous to a just arrived friend and so selfish to his family?.

carmen dijo...

Susan, Pip is trying to deceive himself!!!! Now, in my personal experience i have seen lots of people trying to deceive themselves and as I have also tried to do the same with my own person, I can tell you that sooner or later it gets home to you that you cannot do it any longer. This happens to Pip in chapter 39 and María, I, too, have felt that it served him right. I think that he is not a bad fellow deep down. His behaviour to Herbert, his admiration for Wemmick, his patience with the Aged, all this is proof enough that he is not such a bad one. Why then, does he behave so abominably to Joe? he says that he does not go back!!!! What makes a person forget herself so much, what blinds us so dark? I think it is that joe reminds him of what he was and would still be, he rejects the happiness he felt in pursuit, as he is of Estella. I´m dying for comments about 39...I like the last paragraphs in 38, when Pip describes so well that something, suddenly makes you hit rock bottom, makes you aware that "your live has got real" it is not waiting, expecting, any more but real. Milton describes it very well when Adam wakes up after being tempted and having "fallen" is aware that nothing would ever be the same. I´ll see if i can get you the quote. It is used to describe what "loss of innocence" is. Once this happens to a human being you are never the same, your childhood, your youth, your faith is gone and then you turn to God, spirits, drugs, etc. You are NEVER the same..try to think when this happened to you..

carmen dijo...

Susan, Pip is trying to deceive himself!!!! Now, in my personal experience i have seen lots of people trying to deceive themselves and as I have also tried to do the same with my own person, I can tell you that sooner or later it gets home to you that you cannot do it any longer. This happens to Pip in chapter 39 and María, I, too, have felt that it served him right. I think that he is not a bad fellow deep down. His behaviour to Herbert, his admiration for Wemmick, his patience with the Aged, all this is proof enough that he is not such a bad one. Why then, does he behave so abominably to Joe? he says that he does not go back!!!! What makes a person forget herself so much, what blinds us so dark? I think it is that joe reminds him of what he was and would still be, he rejects the happiness he felt in pursuit, as he is of Estella. I´m dying for comments about 39...I like the last paragraphs in 38, when Pip describes so well that something, suddenly makes you hit rock bottom, makes you aware that "your live has got real" it is not waiting, expecting, any more but real. Milton describes it very well when Adam wakes up after being tempted and having "fallen" is aware that nothing would ever be the same. I´ll see if i can get you the quote. It is used to describe what "loss of innocence" is. Once this happens to a human being you are never the same, your childhood, your youth, your faith is gone and then you turn to God, spirits, drugs, etc. You are NEVER the same..try to think when this happened to you..

Carmen dijo...

Mar, the mists symbolize his lack of vision and also the veil that covers up his mind, don´t you think?

MAR (5ºA) dijo...

Carmen, yes, the mists symbolize his lack of vision and also the veil that covers up his mind.

After reading chapter thirty-nine I also think that Pip has lifted the veil in some respects (not in all respects): “... my sense of my own worthless conduct to them –Joe and Biddy- was greater that every consideration. No wisdom on earth could have given me the comfort that I should have derived from their simplicity and fidelity; but I could never, never, necer undo what I had done”.

Goodness me, how intense chapter thirty-eight and thirty-nine are! There are many things to comment on for tomorrow. Sorry because I would like to say that indeed when Pip was a boy he acted nobel with “his convict” but nevertheless, he is not an honourable man nowadays.

MAR 5º A dijo...

Good morning: The premiere of the film BROTHERS (V.O.) will take place tomorrow (March the 17th) at 22:00
We can get FREE TICKETS.
Call 91/405.70.80
You can get two tickets per person. I did. But you must call as soon as possible. There are ten tickets now!!!

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CINE YELMO IDEAL
C/ Doctor Cortezo, nº 6
Plaza Jacinto Benavente
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Titulo:BROTHERS V.O.S.
Director:Jim Sheridan
Actores:Tobey Maguire, Jake Gyllenhaal, Natalie Portman, Bailee Madison, Taylor Geare, Patrick Flueger, Sam Shepard, Mare Winningham, Clifton Collins Jr., Josh Berry.

Anónimo dijo...
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Susana dijo...

Mar, finally I've got two tickets for "Brothers". I'm using just one so I have one left.

I'll be at the cinema at half past nine to get the tickets, we can have a drink before.

MAR (5ºA) dijo...

Susana it is fantastic. Maybe you can ask Carmen Martínez at your job tomorrow. As you don´t need my extra ticket I will call Georgiana now (as she was also interested).

Ana Gabriela also got them.

See you all at half past nine at the front door of the cinema. In spite of the meeting being a little late it will be nice.

MAR (5ºA) dijo...

Roberto, the photograph you took is lighting our class. We can see your feelings taking that picture and it will also light our understanding for the English language.

Carmen dijo...

I would like to thank Marta who erased all the shitty sexual propanganda that we had in our section, but unfortunately there seems no end for this!!!! We have another one. Marta has told me that it must be one of the students, not necessarily us but one of our students, otherwise how can they have access to the blog? This never happened before!!!

Carmen dijo...

Now for chapter 38 and 39. Well I really thought that you would be ablaze with comments...but we´ve had very few. Let´s try and get some more here:
Pip is particularly foolish in 38. It is not only that he witnesses the horrible scene, painful, dramatic, between Estella and miss H. it is actually that he passes up her character and is worried about the fact that she seems to be quite taken up by drummle, he has not been affected at all by what he has discovered of her coldness, and capacity of hurting.
As to 39, how horrible he must have felt that shun as he had Joe to get Estella, now he finds himself chained down to a convict, repulsive to him but who has done everything in life with the sole ambition of giving it to Pip to spend!!!
Can there be anyone foundd in such a pathetic position?
now we´ll see what his reaction is. This shock can set him on his feet again and maybe he becomes a new person. He has a chance..still, let´s see if he takes his opportunity.

Ana RG Avanz.2 dijo...

Hi! Mar, Susana, etc I´ve got two tickets for Brothers, too. I can be there at 21.30 and have a drink. Where can we meet, at the entrance?
Ana Gabriela

Susana dijo...

Mar and Ana. Carmen Martínez has also two tickets. We both will be at half past nine at the front door.

Susana dijo...

Carmen, after our comments during yesterday class I was thinking about people I have rejected in my life and why, and now I think you are quite right. Dickens is great because his characters are really human and to a degree they have the same behaviours and problems that we have in real life. I thought about a relative, a woman, who I couldn’t bear even she was really nice to me, because she was everything I didn’t want in my life, she was not very cultivated, male chauvinist, and really dependent on her husband. I felt guilty about my feelings on her but then I recognized how different we were and that I could just try to be polite to her.

About chapters 38 and 39 they are great. We learn very much about our dear characters in them. I’ll try to post something about Stella and Pip later on. But about Miss Havisham, we see in this chapter that she is receiving her just deserts. As Javier said in class, she has created a monster, like Frankeinstein, and now she can’t deal with it. If she has felt some relief because of Stella getting revenge on men, now she is again hurt. But I doubt she realizes that everything she has done is wrong. She has stuck her victim role and she is more and more losing her mind. I can image her with “her grey hair all adrift upon the ground” or going along the passage in a ghostly manner.

María dijo...

There are lots of things to comment on! As Carmen mentioned Pip´s loss of innocence, I have been thinking about it, and determine that it came when Pip discovered who his patron was. All his expectations were found dissapointed and the veil fell off. Since he was at Miss Havisham´s and saw Estella, he was creating a perfect world, a sort of wonderland, in which he would be a gentleman, marry Estella and be happy for ever. There was not any reason why to be "pushed" by Miss Havisham, but this was Pip´s conviction which was feeding his deepest expectations. He was innocent enough to believe it as the only truth. So sure was he of his belonging to a new world, and of his being prepared to it by, he believed, Miss Havisham´s intentions, that forgot everything, despised his previous life -sweeping away everything and everyone in its path-, even his previous himself, ignorant, coarse and common.
However, everything was false. His life lost its sense since he discovered that his convict was his real patron and no one else... The loss of innocence always comes with something that makes you awake and see clearly. I don´t know how it happened to me or if it didn´t happen yet...
What has amazed me most is convict´s sense of gratitude. Who could be able to give so much as the convict gives? He, being eternally in and out of prison, achieves to earn money; but does he become rich? Not at all, everything is given to a little child who once helped him, money to his becoming a gentleman -to waste unworriedly-; the gentleman the convict would be not ever... Isn´t it great? Who remembers such a favour so long and "pays" for it like this? This sense of gratitude that keeps the convict happy is admirable. He is happier by seing Pip a gentleman than his own enjoying his own money.
Does he find thankfulness from Pip? I am afraid he doesn´t. Pip is still too much proud. Pip feels that he is a convict´s creation, his belonging. He would wish to pay it back and go away, but it is a huge debt... He feels humiliated and devastated, as he is seing his reputation dragged off. I pity him. He was so mistaken that this should happen to him. He could not keep being so mean, deshonourable, selfish, cynical, snob..., a waster, a liver... Now he has to face the reality -crude one?-, lose his innocence and regret it. He is good, so I pressume he will be forgiven... though for this moment... bye bye, fairy tale; bye bye, great expectations...
As to Miss Havisham and Estella: "Raise crows and they'll peck your eyes out"; if you are feeding a 'monster', he will end up eating you; if you let someone to be heartless with anyone else he will attack you anytime soon.

Anónimo dijo...
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gabriella dijo...

HI!!!!,
May be these last events is what Pip was needing to change. Now that he knows that his "expectations" aren´t what hhe was thinking of, his life could turn round unexpectly, grow up and could help the people around.
I agree with you that Pip´s behavior towards his family and the ones who loves him is not the appropiate, but I think he could change, because he is conscious of what he has done to his family and his way of life; contrary to what Estella does and behaves: arrogant, insensitive.
We can read in Chapter 30, at the beginning(page 246 of my edition, beginning: "The coach, ..."), when Pip arrives in London, he says: "As soon as I arrived, I sent a penitential codfish and barrel of oyster to Joe (as reparation for not having gone myself)".
I think Pip knows about love because, eventhough he grew up without his parents, his sister and Joe took care of him and loved him, especially Joe.
That´s why I think that, at the end, they will be together again, because families, most of the times,forgive and forget the teenagers mistakes.
But Estella is a victim of Miss Havisham´s education and frustrations and she doesn´t know anything about love, she can´t give or recieve love because she hasn´t been given it during all her life.
So, I think that Pip could "teach" Estella how to love and both could change for better...

I´ll be at the cinema at 21.30! By.


Ana Gabriela,

Susana dijo...

I think there is a slight parallelism between Miss Havisham and the convict. In both cases something in their past life has conditioned the rest of their life. They both have chosen a child to convert him or her in someone they couldn’t be. They both have used the children to take revenge for something that they couldn’t change. But of course how generous the convict has been and how selfish Miss Havisham.
I think that the convict, in the marshes, was impressed by Pip’s nobility but even more by his innocence, and because of that he chose Pip to make him a gentleman. Probably in prison or in his previous life he hadn’t met many noble or innocent people. He tells Pip how hard his life has been (“the blood horses of the colonists flinging up the dust over him”) but he is positive and generous and looks for revenge, or rather, recompense through Pip.
Now it’s time for Pip to compensate his generosity. Pip is deeply shocked. He has sharply awaked to real world. He has despised Joe, for being coarse and common and now he learns that his property will come from an uncouth convict. He can’t do anything but swallow his pride and grow up.

MAR (5ºA) dijo...

Pip made a puzzle with the people and the circumstances and wanted to finish it according to his believes. Now, he knows that most of the pieces don´t match with his story. All of his expectations are demolished (Miss Havisham is not his benefactor, Estella is not for him, he goes back to he same position ...). Carmen says that he has not been affected at all by what he has discovered after witnessing the horrible scene between Miss Havisham and Estella, I agree. I think that in his life, he has been affected ONLY by knowing that “his convict” is the founted-head and especially by meeting him. If he had known the same information without meeting him, he would have been less affected than he is now. In my opinion, Pip thinks that he is ruined because he now associates himself with a convict, even though the convict has shown him nothing but kindness.

Going back to Miss Havisham I think that this situation is not only Pip´s fault. I want to blame Miss Havisham, as she used him and deliberately led her relatives and himself into believing that he was destined for her fortune.

Carmen dijo...

Susan, all of us have rejected someone or, what´s worse more than one person; that´s why we have to sympathise with Pip as we recognise his unkindness as ours too. I have rejected God knows how many people, why? because I was angry, out of spite, because I wanted to move on, because I was hurt...and been rejected, too why? for the same reasons...
Gabriella has a very good point when she says that there is hope for Pip and none for Estella on the grounds that Pip has been loved while Estella has not seen the positive side of life only the negative one through Miss H.´s eyes.
María, the convict is generosity itself. However it is something that we do find in real life, I mean lots of parents, who lack or missed something during their lives do what they can to provide this for their children. If we look around us in Spain, the total absence of discipline, the immature generation of the "Ninis" is a consequence of the rigidity that their parents suffered at home and in their lives...now, as we can see in the novel, this normaly brings forth negative issues, as it has in our country. Where is the respect for teachers? or for anything? Magwich (I hope I got the spelling right) has lived and survived to suppñy Pip with a life neither of them were called for. As to Pip, he is back to basics, his past comes back, as Oscar Wilde says it is impossible to buy your past, or your way out of your past, so Pip has been forced to share his life not with honest joe, but with Magwich, remember he wants to live with Pip!!!!
Mar I do agree with you that MissH. could have made it clear that Pip was no ward of hers, but then, perhaps she is not aware that Pip thinks she is...she hasn´t shown any feeling for him, remember the meeting between Joe and her, she clearly says that she will have nothing more to do with him. I certainly blame more Pip´s blindness, he is the one to think that miss H. is the person and he thinks this because he wants Estella...Beware of blindness read King Lear, all of you and you´ll see what i mean, this is Shakespeare´s last tragedy and he wrote about this because we are VERY BLIND poor humans, how many mistakes we make!!!

Anónimo dijo...
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Anónimo dijo...
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María dijo...

Everybody rejects people. Our prejudices´ fault.
Yes, it is very interesting what Carmen says. Magwich wanted Pip to have what he lacked. That has sense. But did he do well hidding the truth? What do you think of it? Didn´t he inform Pip in advance because he thought Pip would refuse it? Maybe Pip should have demanded his patron´s identity before accepting such a tempting lifetime "salary"... But he was so sure Miss Havisham was his benefactress...
I agree that Estella is hopeless. She has been created to maltreat, and she´ll do so to everyone, even to the creator.

María dijo...

How much did you like "Brothers"? Do you recommend it? I suggest you should see "The last station".

Roberto dijo...

Hello everyone,

I cannot get distracted with the blog or I will have to catch up with both the novel and your comments. After reading your last posts, quickly so I beg your pardon.

I'm very busy with my course and there is no finding any spare time to write. It's amazing, I'm doing several projects together with two British students and it is myself who has to keep going and tell them what to do and insist on the fact that they have to work hard and not be lazy.

Anyway, a proper comment will follow.

Thank you Mar. I am completely amazed that you all like my photo and am honoured tha Carmen has been so kind to post it on the class board.

Roberto dijo...

Sorry,

after reading your comments, quickly so I beg your pardon, I am looking forward to giving you my perspective about these chapters

MAR (5ºA) dijo...

Hello Maria, we recommend that you enjoy the film "brothers". It invites to analyse some subjects: (families -the two brothers seemed tragically incapable of harmony-; men´s priorities -Sam loves his wife and two small daughters but might love serving his country even more-).

About Estella, it is true that she has been created to mistreat. It is in chapter thirty-nine that she says that "she is a victim”, but nevertheless, she doesn´t want to change, she feels the power with men.

With regard to your question about Mr Provis, I will think about that and I will come back to tha blog.

María dijo...

Roberto, we certainly miss you on the blog, but the first is the first, which is obtain the best results, which you will, for sure.
Thanks, Mar, for your recommendation, I will go to the cinema soon, I hope, and thanks as well for your correction ("mistreat")!!
Estella is a victim, which she has realized when she has grown up. It must be really hard to realize that the person whom you have been living with is wicked and has used you for her own revenge against men´s sake. She must feel empty and unloved. How to change? I am afraid it is too late for her... She doesn´t know how to love...
As to Mr Provis (easier to get the spelling right), what I meant is that sometimes people pressupose others´ neccesities and provide them without asking, not even imagining they could be mistaken and not making a favour but the opposite... Mr Provis never thought about Pip´s probable annoyance of having been provided for a convict of dubious reputation.

MAR 5º A dijo...

Hello Maria I am here again with my opinion about Mr Provis. Well, when Pip learns the true identity of his benefactor, he is shocked. Mr Provis left his money to Pip in gratitude for Pip´s kidness in the marshes, but also because of Pip reminded him of his own child. I must admit that I am intrigued by this part and let´s wait and see what the author keeps for us (honestly speaking I don´t know the whole plot but I want to know more about the convict: we don´t have any idea about the crime yet, we don´t have any idea about his life and family yet, some things are still a mistery. You said that sometimes people pressupose others´ neccesities and provide them without asking, it is true but parents also do that, don´t they?. I think that Provis acts like a father. You will probably disagree but, were I Pip I would recognize in Mr Provis a good and noble man!

p.s. thank you to you as you taught me, many many other English words, at the right time. As Carmen says we can and should learn English ussing the blog (by the way most of our fellow students don´t want to enjoy it).

Carmen dijo...

Currently I am in Santander and what with being with my father, playing "mus" and trying not be left behind with Dickens and emails, I haven´t got much time to read or post, but I´ve read your comments and have found them very interesting. Estella is incapable of love, I think it is difficult to force oneself to "feel" if you cannot, some people are incapable of "feeling" and Estella personifies this. The second question which one of you mentions, I think it is Mar, is that Estella likes this feeling of power over men thus, she would not like to relinquish her coldness.
I think it is maría that questions Magwich´s reasons for not telling Pip his hidden "guardinaship"; this has got me thinking and I´ve come to the conclusion that he could have done it to prevent Pip from getting into trouble, after all he is a convict, he must know under what consideration he would be, from a respectful- society´s point of view. Secondly he could also feel a little wary of Pip´s accepting his help, considering where it comes from. I know that this presumed lack of confidence doesn´t come forward through Magwich´s words so far, but it could be.
Roberto, concentrate on your studies and on getting as much as you can of your two years there, that is studying and mixing with the Saxons, reading and talking with fellows (you never thought this word would be used with you, did you?)and tutors and don´t worry about the blog as yet, but we certainly DO MISS you!!!
As to all the current students who have been unable to find time to post and practice their writing and grammar on line...it is a real pity and I´m sure there will be a time when they will regret it...

Anónimo dijo...
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MAR (5ºA) dijo...

Th more we read about Mr Wemmick the more I like this character.
He has two very different personalities, depending on where he is. When he is in London, he is all business. When he is at home, he is warm, welcoming, and generous of spirit especially with his Aged Parent.

I like the way he speaks to Pip either to prevent himself from speaking clearly or to prevent Pip from making mistakes.

Not only does he help Pip but he also gives him the best advice. Wemmick doesn´t talk about “advice” he talks about “rules” as his mind is full of rules. It was in chapter forty that he said: “take nothing on its looks, take everything on evidence. There is no better rule”. And it is true. In spite of him using very specific legal words the message is full of meaning, as many people tend to take everything on its looks. By the way I think that in other words British say: “you cannot tell a book by its cover”.

It is in chapter forty-five that we will read about another good rule.

Anónimo dijo...
Este comentario ha sido eliminado por un administrador del blog.
Carmen dijo...

But will we never get rid of this trash? It must be someone doing it, could you please stop? It takes time to erase this and time is precious...

María dijo...

Mar, sorry, but wasn´t it Jaggers that said that "rule"? I agree that it is a very good one.
I also think that Magwicht shouldn´t have given Pip so much without asking first whether it would be welcome. But I also think that there weren´t bad intentions, but the opposite. Magwitch didn´t think about the consequences of his being a patron, taking into account his own condition: a convict of bad reputation. Pip is devastated, frustrated... so, that he was thinking of denouncing him, driving him, thus, to "the extreme penalty of law". Circumstances given, I understand Pip feeling ashamed of Mr Provis. That is a justified shame, as the one he felt for Joe wasn´t.
Despite Pip making so many mistakes and misbehave, he is lucky by having got Herbert and Wemmick, his relieves. But it is Estella´s coming wedding that makes Pip feel totally destroyed. Not only because she´ll never be "his", but someonelse´s whom he knows well and dislikes well...
Women, after all, are the most powerful as far as men´s uneasiness is concerned!!! We, witches!
The end is coming..., so many things still to happen...

María dijo...

Hello??? Are you there?? Spring has come and has made you go out?? Well, here in London Spring has come as well, thankfully. I thought that London couldn´t be ever prettier than in winter... but I was wrong... I am looking forward to April coming!
This is to tell you that you have a very good reason to visit London in May. I´ll tell you why: the play "Miss Havisham" will be on!!! Isn´t it great?? Here you have the link to book the tickets: p://www.lastminute.com/lmn/pso/catalog/Product.jhtml?POSITION=1&PRODID=842021884&CATID=95281
It is from 29 May to 30 May!!!, and costs 9 pounds only!! I am going to book mine for the 29th right now.
Have a good Spring day

MAR (5ºA) dijo...

Maria, you are tempting us, as we are thinking about traveling to London on May the 29th and the 30th. Carmen says that she will probably be busy with exams. Let´s wait and see if we can organize a trip.

About Great Expectations, you are right, that rule comes from Mr Jaggers but nevertheless, I wanted to speak about Wemmick and the things I wrote were referred to him. I like this character very much. And about rules it is Wemmick in chapter forty-five who says: “it´s a good rule never to leave documentary evidence if you can help it, because you don´t know when it may be put in”, and it is completely true.

After reading chapters forty-two and forty-three and knowing about Compeyson (not only did he swindle money but he also swindled Miss Havisham), I want to go back to Miss Havisham as she never recovered from this kind of fellow. She stopped “living” one day at twenty to nine because of this kind of fellow cheated her. After knowing who her groom in abstencia is, in my opinion, there is no justification for Miss Havisham´s attitude after certain time.

I´m always intrigued by Orlick. It is in chapter fourty-three (just in the last paragraph) that Pip mentions him. I want to think that the author keeps somenthing interesting with regard to this character, but maybe I´m wrong.

gabriella dijo...

Hi: You are tempting me too, Maria.
I was planning to go next week to London. I could postpone my trip for that date.
I hope we can arrange a trip altogether.
I agree with you Mar, I can understand Miss Havisham, but I know this kind of women, they are not strong enough to overcome and get over their failure love affaires. But, on the other hand, they are very strong in frustrating everything around them. Poor Miss Havisham. And poor Estella. I hope she could change....
Well, Happy Spring and Holidays!!!!
Ana Gabriela

María dijo...

It seems impossible for me not to recall you all... I will only suggest that you go to see the film "The blind side".
Well, I am very happy that you find me so tempting!! jeje. A weekend in London, in May, being in bloom, seeing a play about one of the most interesting characters of the novel we have been reading this course... is tempting indeed. I hope your expectations be eventually carried out...
Have you already read chapter 49 and 50? Now that we are going to an end, everything goes quicker and the unbelievable is being discovered...
I also wish you a happy Spring and a happy Easter, though I believe we will be online a little to comment a little on these great expectations...

MAR (5ºA) dijo...

Maria if you recommend that everybody watch the film “the blind side” it is because you enjoyed it very much (thank you).

I will appreciate the first signs of Spring in Enland soon. I will see that the buds are filling and the trees are full of blossom or at least blossoming.

We are reading chapters forty-four and forty-five now and I want to comment on some things, I cannot wait until April the 6th. We thought about Pip as a person who had very much inside feelings and he didn´t know Estella´s feelings. In my opinion, we have not been dwelling on Pip´s feelings or Estella´s feeling until now. I like Pip´s words and in spite of him being devastated he is honest when he said Estella: “put me aside for ever but bestow yourself on some worthier person than Drummle”.

About Estella, she reminds me of Kitty (The painted veil) thinking about the reasons why they got married. Have you seen any sign of love in Estella towards Drammel?, neither have I. Estella will get married to Drammel because she is tired of the life she has led and she is willing enough to change it.

What do you think about Miss Havisham´s thoughts after witnessing Pip´s declaration? That spectral figure with her hand covering her heart during the conversation. I think that Miss Havisham feels pity and remorse. Estella also said that she acted by her own on that subject and must be true.

María dijo...

Hi, my dear fellows! Yesterday I had a very dickensian day. If you want to live it as well, come in May and I will show you!!! Am I not tempting??? je, je, je...
night night!

Roberto dijo...

Hello,

I promised that I was going to post a comment but you can see that I didn't. I beg your pardon. I will not give you any excuse because when one commits to do something, one must do it come what may.

Anyway, after a week spent in London, what a city!, I am at last in a quiet place which will give me peace and time to read and write. But first I have to read your last comments and catch up with the novel.

Thus, this time I will not promise anything but I do wish I may write proper comments during these holiday days.

Enjoy yourselves wherever you stay.

:-)

María dijo...

Already at home, scared, after watching, with Mar (and Herbie), The woman in black... English acting is simply impressive, isn´t it? Though we were cramped... in the gods! (Have I said it well, Mar?? Je, je)
I was wondering if I will be able to finish the novel before Easter... I think I can, but I also need to comment on it! But what? Where are you reading? Give me a clue! night night

Carmen dijo...

First of all you have written very well, with few mistakes. Well done all.
Secondly, i think the "havisham trip" is a very good idea, but I will be unable to join you as Magdalena will be over for half term. But go if you can you need not spend much and the prize is really good. Then on the other day you could see the temptest, which is one of Shakespeare´s best comedies.
As to our novel, the ending is gorgeous, it moves so fast that I cannot put it down and have to restrain myself so as not to read too much. I like to have read recently so that I´m inspired for the comments.
Pip thrives. Somehow once the mess is done and he touches rock bottom with Estella´s marriage, he can start to live again, this time very much for others. He stops looking within himself and starts considering those surrounding him. I think this is important in life, when we become too centred in us nad our problems we tend to make more mistakes than those that are naturally expected from human beings.
I find Pip very much improved, as to his self-confidence, when he speaks his mind before miss H. to Estella. i also think that Miss H. sees for the first time the mistake she has made because she´s bred someone to hurt. This is the turning point of the story, Pip is now on a different level, which he has reached thanks to Estella´s rejection and marriage.
Mar, the difference between Estella and Kitty is that though both marry to change their lives, Kitty is not incapable of feeling as Estella.
Bye for now I´m leaving for Santander in ten minutes and have to pack!!!
So you´ve liked London, Roberto??

MAR dijo...

Yes Maria, it was a little cramped "in the gods" but Herby and I really enjoyed the play and your company.

Both the actors were really magnificent even changing their accents according to the parts they played.

We are almost sure we saw the woman in black going back to Windsor by train but didn't hear any child screaming - only people talking loudly on mobile telephones.

María dijo...

jeje, I hope this woman you saw was not the one in black... If so, you already know what it means...
I´ve already finished the novel, but I will only comment on the chapters you are reading.
I was at last proud of Pip, when he dared to say what he felt to Estella for her. He didn´t do it expecting anything, but just for the sake of expressing himself, the love which was drowning him. What made him be furious was the name of her future husband. It is true that once you admit someone is not yours you much prefer this someone to be someone else´s you like, at least, a little.
As Pip knew beforehand, Estella was incapable of feeling love. But he didn´t know Miss Havisham´s inability of feeling remorse. I think that to expect the best of patrons -Miss Havisham- was Pip´s fault and not Miss Havisham´s; however, I guess she knew perfectly well Pip´s expectations and enjoyed his sufferings. Is there something worse than enjoying others´ sufferings? Why didn´t she learn that seeing others´ disgraces wouldn´t make her own disgrace be softened?
As to his disposition towards Magwitch, I think it is a situation quite stressing. Not only has Pip found that his real patron is a convict, but also has to avoid being watched by... whoever, and caught. Again, Pip is very lucky for having Wemmick and Herbert beside him. What do you think of Clara? She seems to be like another Biddy...

Roberto dijo...

It is not flattering at all when I say that the blog has everything: wonderful, amazing and exciting; an invaluable means to improve our writing, the chance to learn, to think, to enjoy... Honestly I cannot see my life without the blog. Besides, having the chance to discuss about a novel, a proper novel indeed, is something you scarcely might find out there. I do know my fluently is not good at all and my pronunciation even worse. Every time I hear that accent I wish to achieve I see that there is a long, very long way to achieve it, everyone saying that I won’t ever reach it unless I am a native. I don’t care; I will do my best and spend as many years as necessary to get it. However, if you asked me about my writing for instance, I feel with absolute confidence and despite mistakes (you all are already aware of that, aren’t you?), I know I can write accurately, formally or just easily to answer to a friend or an acquaintance, more than I do when I write in Spanish I'd dare say, can you believe it? Finally, if you add Carmen’s guidance, there will be no impediments to succeed. Keep going!

Roberto dijo...

I think that Provis, despite his acting out of law, has done something good even though he has done it selfishly and out of law. That is one of the reasons why I believe Pip feels so uncomfortable before him and cannot help hating such a man, the other being that he left Joe behind. How many times have you acted regardless consequences and only followed by your own satisfaction, realizing in time that you were wrong after all thus, unable to undo “that” decision taken in the past? Pip keeps seeing only what he wants to see and when the time to find out the other side of the coin reveals itself, he rejects it or gets puzzled and terrible hurt. As a dreamer, Pip passes through life unaware of other’s feelings, I mean unsensible of their real condition. We have seen this so far with Joe, Biddy, and Estella and now with his own “great expectations”. He does not mean to harm anyone but is unable to see beyond his own perception and sentiments. Provis is certainly a “repulsive” character but, paradoxically, his account of what became of his life after the meeting in the marshes and his patronage of Pip’s future is reasonable, respectable and even honourable, is it not? What about Estella? I do understand Pips’ feelings and I could not have said it myself better. However, Estella’s answer is so reasonable as well that there is no denying that she has a point. You might sympathy or not with her explanation but that is another issue. Thus, Pip can’t say anything at all. On the other hand, I cannot pity Estella though, because terrible influenced as she has been all her life long, she is beautiful and well educated. What else did a woman need those days to get what she wants?

Roberto dijo...

Wemmick is certainly an interesting character, always giving the proper piece of advice one needs. However, if had to give the reasons why I like this character, which I do indeed, I would choose two motives for it. Firstly, the goodness and love he shows towards the Aged. A person behaving like that cannot be but both a faithful and a good man; the other being the fact that Wemmick always seems to act properly. Let me explain myself. I think we mentioned this issue long ago, either in this threat or another, but it is something which I would like to point again. Not only Wemmick and Herbert but also Pip, after his parting Estella, do know what to do according to circumstances. I lack of such a skill. If we set these last chapters as examples, I would be unable to act like that. I mean, when there is a hazardous situation or a problem to solve, I see people instantly ready to take a decision, the right one. I do really get amazed because I always consider many alternatives probably to occur due to a certain decision and that makes me doubt for I do not know which one would be the most appropriate one. Can you see what I mean? For instance, when Pip is coming back to London and receives the leter “Don’t go home” at the gate, what would you have done?

Roberto dijo...

I do love it indeed, Carmen. Every time I go up to London, I see that I have to do my best to reach the final dream: living there. By the way, this time I paid special attention to so many shops with exquisite taste to dress you as the perfect gentleman that I do wish I would be wealthy. I can’t help it. Sophistication, elegance and perfection are so tempting... I told Maria that there are three or four MATERIAL things a man is always very fond of: cars, watches, shoes and suits.

Roberto dijo...

Have you reached chapter 51 yet?

If it be not so, I will just say that I have liked it very much. It reaches the climax of the story in my opinion. Triangle Pip-Jaggers-Wemmick at its best... I'll say no more.

:-)

Carmen dijo...

Tomorrow Marta will give you your tickets for the merchant of Venice and a film, the BBC one that Xavi was going to bring, and which María gave me today when I saw her in Madrid.
Susan, I´ve placed your daughter with all the girls on the 1st row and you will sit with your class mates.
Your tickets have their names on them.
those tickets which are not collected, please put back in the envelope.
Have a good day and enjoy the film, ´please give the key and films back to Marta and I´ll try to watch it over the week-end.
Roberto will visit us on Tuesday, I wonder when we will finish the book!!!!

MAR (5ºA) dijo...

Carmen, we have watched the first DVD of the film (BBC) Marta gave us on behalf of you. As it lasted one and a half hour we didn´t watch the second DVD. We could watch it either on Friday the 16th or the day you consider correct.

Don´t worry as we gave back to Marta the key, the films and the envelope with two tickets which were not collected.

About the film I would like to comment on that there is a big difference between the novel and the film with regard to Pip´s farewell. The novel allowed us to analyse Pip´s parting with many details (Pip organized material things such us chothes, shoes, tickets. After finishing with these material things he thought about the persons to whom should pay a visit. Thirdly he looked into himself and went to the place which represented something special in his heart –the battery-. Finally, how wrong he was with his friends Joe and Biddy, he parted without understanding Biddy´s thoughts and telling that simple phrase: “well I suppose I must go”). However, the film omits this part and shows us Mr Joe and Biddy as good companyons for Pip on his way to the station.

About the actresses, I like Miss Havisham -she has a slightly sinister appearence under the surface that is very interesting- and the girl who played the younger version of Estella –in my opinion, she acted very well-

Roberto we will enjoy your presence on Twesday.

Roberto dijo...

Thank you Mar, I'm looking forward to visiting you all and wish we can not only discuss about my life in UK but also abou the novel. I do really miss those moments when chapters are summed up and then commented. By the way, 5 chapters left to finish it.

Ch 53 was thrillng indeed and I enjoyed it a lot, however, what I really made me start when reading such a chapter was the perfect description o every single deatal of the scene, including feelings, atmosphere, actions.. And let me add that Pip's description of a London view a sunrise from that area of London is superb. When I was reading it, I couldn't but wish to be there, noticing also to that in life those trifle, rutinary and usually overlooked moments are what give us satisfaction. Is there a better way of waking up than that?

Please, keep posting.

Roberto dijo...

Sorry, I made some typing mistakes. Again, mobiles nowadays are very sophisticated but a proper keyboard is always better.

:-)

María dijo...

Hi there!! How are you all after Easter? You must be finishing the novel! I finished it and loved the end. Dickens is good at ends -well, he is good at many things, as master as he is, but I usually love his ends! No sooner had I finished the novel, I watched the film. I disliked it as I´ve disliked every film after having read the novel. They always are dissapointing. The fact is that Great Expectations is a book of thoughts and feelings, which is very difficult to show in a film, isn´t it? However, I think that every actor was very well chosen to each character: Miss Havisham, Estella, Pip (though while reading the novel I hadn´t imagined him as a handsome guy), Abel, Wemmick, Jaggers, Joe, Mrs Joe... All!! Don´t you agree? Though, in my opinion, I´d say that Estella doesn´t seem that cold at the film as she is at the novel. You will see...
Indeed, Roberto, London is a city for you! Cars, you have them here, the most expensive ones driven by the richest; watches -well, now that I´ve come from Geneva, there you have more...-, but shoes and suits! French Eye, a shop for men, is closing down... You should come and buy all kind of suits for half price! You see that there always is a good reason to come? This city is "el planazo"!
Have you already read about Miss Havisham´s apologize and humiliation in front of Pip? Don´t you think that it is one of the best parts of the novel? The regret after seeing a life totally wasted -I particularly disliked this part at the film, too weak-. Poor, poor Miss Havisham... Nobody was able to take her away from her obssession of making men suffer, at the expense of losing her own life, suffering, alone -left by her cold "own creation"-, sad and with the strongest of remorses. At least, she did her last good deed and was fair at her will.
What did you like about the triangle Wemmick-Jaggers-Pip, Roberto?
Are you planning to come to London to see the play? The soooner you plan it, the cheaper you´ll find the flights and accomodation!

Susana dijo...

Hello! I’ve had long Easter holidays, unfortunately without internet connection to read the blog. I’m anxious to finish the novel but I’m keeping the class reading rhythm to make some progress in the course book (not so interesting as the novel).
Today we’ve done chapters forty-six and forty-seven and I’ve found a Pip who likes me more and more. He is now more sensible and reasonable, I dare say mature. Mature, with this type of maturity which only bitter and unhappy experiences provide. He feels miserable because it’s a hard way of learning, but I think he is know better prepared for real life, and I hope that he will find new real expectations before finishing the novel.
In chapter forty-six we find also a different Pip’s attitude towards Provis; firstly because Provis is “in a softer condition”, but also because Pip seems now to be more conscious of Provis effort for his sake.
Roberto, we really thank you have spent part of your free time sharing your English experiences with us.
Carmen, sorry because I have just read your post. Thank you to place my daughter with the girls, I wish they all enjoy the play.

Jesús Fernández de Vera dijo...

I also want to thank Roberto for his visit. It was really inspirative to listen to your experience, and I feel that we all are sure that your "great expectations" as Mar called them, will come true sooner or later.

María dijo...

Tell me how it was! I would very much have loved to attend Roberto´s lectures! Lucky you all!

Roberto dijo...

I do have no words. Susana, Jesús I really thank you for such good compliments. I was honoured to have the opportunity to speak a little about my new life in Swansea. I felt important (thanks to you, students as I used to be) for the first time in my life. I do wish and hope that I have made you see, somehow, that you have the means to do whatever you want to achieve concerning the lenguage. Please, trust me when I say that yes, you can. Carmen is there, still there to help you and to guide you.

I will just add that Carmen changed my mind two years ago and made me realize that I was very narrow minded and blind in many ways and that we have to pursue excellence. Let's do our best and become part of the "club". She is a great woman and saying this is a fact.

Keep going, working hard. This is the best piece of advice I could give you; but most of all try to do it with motivation and good will. You can enjoy it!!

María, I am glad to see you hear again. What a pity you had not been there too because you have plenty of things to talk about as well.

Roberto dijo...

Maria, I did not read your last post. I will do it tomorrwo. Sorry

:-)

Carmen dijo...

Well, I´ve thoroughly (my God! I always have to think carefully about the spelling of this word!!!!) enjoyed reading all your posts and I will begin by thanking Roberto for his kind words...though somewhat exagerated I will admit that I did insist, that I always insist on excellence, why can´t anyone become a member of "the club"? All he needs is will power and effort. You had the first and pursued the second and now you, too, belong there!!!! To think of the first times I heard you "trudging" along the sentences and today flowing on as if you were speaking your mother tongue....amazing. You DID IT.
Now the fifths are a little behind schedule, but you have one more chance: fail the exam "en masse" and do the year again. We could read David Copperfield and no course book, only the novel, but it would have to be just us again, if we have a newcomer we would be in a difficulty, we´d have to do the grammar again!!!
Roberto, I´m happy to say that your anlysis of the characters is really good. I agree with you about Wemmick, he is good and thus a universal success with every reader as he was with those who left him their rings as a keepsake. What I like is his perfect separation of private and public/working life. I also like his particular ways,because particular he is. It is as though Dickens is trying to point out that people can be, are, capable of doing/being good and eccentric at the same time.
Provis/Magwitch, you describe as repulsive and indeed he is (we see his way of eating the food Pip stole from home, on the marshes, like a dog, in the TV series, but I also agree with you that his life in Australia is a kind of purgatory where his generosity towards another human being restores him in our good opinion and turns our feelings in his favour.
Pip´s confession of his feelings for Estella is very honest, sweet and he speaks well but he lacks strength, he never sheds this inferiority he feels in Estella´s presence. It is after these chapters that he becomes more of the man that he should have been had he not been selfishly blinded by his expectations of becoming a gentleman and of marrying Estella out of the blue, just because "someone" suposedly, wanted the marriage to come about.Pip confuses wealth and luxury with being "a gentleman" at heart, something that is perhaps more difficult to achieve than money as it is a mixture of education, feelings and consideration for others, it is something that requires generosity, I don´t know how to put it really, it´s difficult to define. But on this no more, we are not at the end yet.
Maria, ´we´ll try and go to see "blind men" i wonder if it is on, here. So you´ve seen lots of watches in Geneve, you know I´m like Roberto, I adore watches!!! and cars!!!! and everything that is nice and aesthetically beautiful, my favourite poet is Keats, so beauty is important to me.
Mar, I agree with María that it is difficult to put a novel of Dickens in a DVD, and with you that some of the basic parts in the novel have been brushed over in the film.
Susan I do see, too, that Pip is becoming more mature as people who have suffered do.
tell your daughter to display her charms, they are eight and they all know each other......

Carmen dijo...

Roberto,
Thanks for your visit and the nice afternoon we have shared with you. For me it was also quite funny (and a bit sad..too) to have you on my side and not facing me!!!! You´ve done this with flying colours, and let me tell you to stand in front of a pack of adults ("ready to pounce on you.." remember my first letter??) is not EASY..so, once again welcome....to this club, too!

gabriella dijo...

Roberto, thanks for your time and "positive" comments. (I´m sorry I had to leave for another class, not better, by the way....)It´s always gratifying to be in front of a young person, full of projects and who takes his time to share his experiences and comes back to his "origins" and to say thanks to his teachers. It honours you. I hope you can reach everything you wish. Keep going!

MAR (5ºA) dijo...

As my fellow students said, Roberto, thank you for coming and for explaining about your personal experiences to us.

I agree with Susana about Pip´s change. It is in chapter fourty-six that we read: “... and when I little supposed my heart could ever be as heavy and anxious at parting from him –Provis- as it was now”. I think that Pip is a person who needs time (in my opinion too much) to interpret the situations in the right way. He normally doesn´t have a clever point of view when new happenings come and he had not a reference, I mean, neither Joe nor Mrs Joe were a good reference in this respect, but nevertheless, I also think that Pip is capable of changing.

Roberto dijo...

Mar and Gabriela, it is myself who must thank you for your kind words. Honestly, I did not expect having so good a time with all of you and by Carmen’s side. I am coming back to Swansea in such good spirits that I will certainly miss all those beautiful moments and good wishes when arriving there. I also wish you all achieve your dreams and never forget that there is no secret to succeed: effort, determination and motivation. That’s all. Good luck!

Carmen, it would be great indeed to do the course based on David Copperfield’s and stick to it (please, do it. I will join you from the distance). And you are right, standing there, by your side was another dream come true. And those moments are what make you happy. I wish I could go back and live those two years again.

María, can you believe that, in less than 30 minutes, I could see no less than 10 Bentley Continental, a superb car which value may be around £175.000?

I do like such a triangle (W-J-P) and the scene itself because it was like witnessing a trial? I believe Dickens’ is very fond of Court issues,isn't he?, all sides doing their best to win and making good use of their skills. Marvellous!

When the time arrives and I may afford it (I hope so), I will become definitely a gentleman and dress properly. ;-)

Roberto dijo...

By the way, yesterday I forgot saying that even though A Tale of Ttwo Cities is my favourite classic so far, Jane Eyre follows closely.

:-)

elena_gil (former student) dijo...

Hello Carmen and everyone!

I thought you might want to buy some tickets for these (I have already booked mine):

THE BRIDGE PROJECT
AS YOU LIKE IT / THE TEMPEST

Fecha: 29 de abril de 2010 al 09 de mayo de 2010
Lugar: Teatro Español - Sala Principal
Precio: Entradas de 6 a 28 € (cada espectáculo)
"AS YOU LIKE IT", del 29 de abril al 2 de mayo y "THE TEMPEST" del 5 al 9 de mayo. TEATRO EN INGLÉS CON SOBRETÍTULOS EN CASTELLANO.

más información
AS YOU LIKE IT (COMO GUSTÉIS)

Fecha: 29 de abril de 2010 al 02 de mayo de 2010
Lugar: Teatro Español - Sala Principal
Precio: Entradas de 6 a 28 €.
Del 29 de abril al 2 de mayo

más información

Carmen dijo...

Gosh! Thanks Elena for this MARVELOUS INFORMATION. We will ceertainly go.
How are you doing? how is your doctorate? How is your English? You know about María and Roberto, don´t you?
Make sure you read, at least the tempest in English before you go. That is a very good comedy, one of the best ones.

Carmen dijo...

I´d like to hear you on this:
What is the the effect on a person when you manage to persuade him/her that he/she ahs ruined your life? When Pip tells miss Havisham that she did with him she "wakes up" from her trance, from her stubborn and at the same time familiar, almost comfortable position of victim who was cat-like playing with the lives of other people and she becomes, all of a sudden, the cruel tyrant which she had, I believe, never meant to have been.

María dijo...

I agree that Miss Havisham, at her “trance” and “stubborn”, as Carmen says, was never aware of the sufferings she was feeding. She said that she adopted and bred Estella to keep her far from the misery like hers. However, she bred a monster, an object incapable of love. Miss Havisham comes to understand the gravity of her former intentions when she sees Estella´s inability to love her. Moreover, she also fed Pip´s expectations, and failed as they eventually were, she realized the enormity of her actions, and regretted, asking for forgiveness. “What have I done!” shows that she never meant to be that revengeful.
Desperate, she kneels to Pip, which makes Pip be moved. It is surprising, undoubtedly, to see the person whom you have adored, admired as what she represents –wealth, status…-, envied as has what you lack, to kneel in front of you, entirely humiliated, asking for your forgiveness. What I am not that sure is whether Pip fully forgives her, given the circumstances, his current torment of seeing his life ruined and his expectations disappointed. Though, he tries to save her from the flames, which could mean a sort of forgiveness, because I think that Pip, later, pitied her.
I don´t know if I possess the ability to forgive, because I have not been a victim of such a suffering; but were I to see my life totally ruined and all my expectations disappointed because of someone else´s “trance” and “stubborn”, I wonder what I´d feel… The ability of forgiveness is a virtue, though resentment or hostility sometimes remain…

María dijo...

Helen! These are the plays I will be seeing here!! I am glad you all go, so that we can comment on them. I would be very glad as well to have subtitles!! Here we haven´t, as you can guess... As Roberto says: "Real life hasn´t got subtitles"...

María dijo...

Well, Roberto, as I can read every comment of the fellows, your staying at lessons -besides Carmen, your dream- was a total success!
Yes, I am becoming an expert by seeing all those cars in London: Betley, Asthon Martins, Porsche, Ferrari..., never to be mine! As you see, my expectations are not that GREAT! I am joking.
As to Pip´s change that some of you mention, I think that his transformation comes with Magwitch. He moves from revulsion at Magwitch's appearance and manners -his former own characteristics, coarse and common-, to valuing his humanity and to finally loving him as his second father.
Carmen, the film is "The blind side", not the "blind men"!! What are you thinking of?

Roberto dijo...

I think it depends on the person itself. Even though he/she should realize that they have ruined your life, they might not feel ashamed or show any sign of repentance. After all, Miss Havisham became eventually sensible that she was mistaken and that should have thought it twice before doing her best to ruin other’s life. Unfortunately, it cannot be undone.

As far as my personal experience is concerned, I do feel really disappointed when I see people, making you wretched, believe themselves to be the victims or keep thinking that they are right.

Roberto dijo...

I have just finished the novel.

Let me only say that not very often can one read such a perfect ending. Bravo!

Roberto dijo...

It's amazing, while waiting in a not very long queue, advancing a meter per 10 minutes though, I have come across the feeling that now that I have finished the novel, I'd like to read it again to analyze more carefully pip's character.

:-)

MAR (5ºA) dijo...

Well, answering Carmen´s request I do believe that the effect could be either the same as Miss Havisham´s or to deny your responsability. I prefer Miss Havisham´s attitude. She regrets having ruined Pip´s life. She appreciates Pip. I think that Miss Havisham´s nature used to be good (we know the circumstances that changed her). There is no reason to justify her behaviour now, I´m not doing that, but nevertheless, she is asking for forgiveness.

Pip forgives her, he is such a generous man. Maria says that the ability of forgiveness is a virtue, though resentment or hostility sometimes remain. Sorry Maria but in my opinon, in that case the forgiveness doesn´t exist. Forgiveness requires one condition: “good or honest intention” after that recognition it is possible to forgive but that act can not be compatible with resentment or hostility.

I am completely engrossed in the novel and I want to say that it moved me more than once. I understand Roberto when he says that he is thinking about reading it again in order to analyse Pip´s character.

María dijo...

Mar, what do you mean when saying that "in that case the forgiveness doesn´t exist"? I think that forgiveness is compatible with resentment or hostility. You can forgive someone, but not forget. And not forgeting means resentment, somehow. Don´t you agree?
As to Miss Havisham, she puzzles me. at first she seemed so aware of her actions! "Love her, love her, love her!" was repeated by her in a bitchy way... She knew too that she was not being kind... However, it is shown that it is not until she sees Estella´s coldness also to her -"but, to me!", Miss Havisham said- or Pip´s torment making himself go to her and ask for explanation, that Miss Havisham realizes once for all the gravity of what she did. And thus, she regrets. But, what did she expect???? Didn´t she expect to teach a lesson? Didn´t she know the consequences of them? She only would have been rewarded by seeing her own misery suffered by other man, Pip here. To get that, she used -abused- Estella. In conclusion, she was obssessed and mentally ill. So she didn´t need forgiveness but going to an Asylum. Her family should have done something for her instead of only wanting "something" from her.
Roberto, I share your opinion about people who ruin your life -or simply who think they have the right to give their opinion about you- and never are aware of it and are stuck to their own good deeds, like saints, as if they were making you a favour, believing themselves to be, for instance, your mother!! I once met one like that and I hope I don´t meet another like...

elena_gil dijo...

Hello Carmen! Yes, I'm sure both plays will be great! Last year I enjoyed very much this "bridge project" :D
I ordered The tempest through amazon.uk, but I haven't got the book yet due to the icelandic volcano, as Royal Mail is still not functioning :)

By the way, I recommend amazon.uk if you want to buy books in English. I have purchased some old (though some look like new ones) books for ridiculous prices (0.01 pounds). So in fact you only pay the shipping, which might cost around 5 euros. And best thing is that you can get marvelous things for these prices. I bought for example a magnificent illustrated book with the letters of Virginia Woolf, quite new, for 5 euros, when a new one would cost more than 40 euros! It was a great discovery.

I'm also attending a course named "Ingles a traves de la literatura" in EOI Jesus Maestro. It belongs to "Cursos especiales". We've read some texts of Oscar Wilde, Raymond Carver, Mark Twain. It's being interesting. I recommend it if some of you are willing to continue studying some English next year. Still, I have to say I miss the books we read and all the comments in class :)

I also read The painted veil and found the story really interesting!

And last, yes, I know about Maria and Roberto. I heard they're doing pretty well!!

I was talking to Natalia and Elena Martinez the other day about visiting London, I expect we fix a weekend soon?!

What a long post! I wish you a good ending of the academic year! Kind regards!

MAR (5ºA) dijo...

Maria I disagree (sorry). Neither resentment nor hostility can you have against someone after forgiving her/him. The REAL meaning of forgiveness is such a deep and such a spiritual concept that we don´t know how to do that properly.

About Miss Havisham, I agree, and it was in chapter fourty-nine that she said to Pip: “until you spoke to Estella the other day, and until I saw in you a looking-glass that showed me what I once felt myself, I did not know that I had done. What I had done!”.
I would like to add that she also lost Estella and have nothing now. I would also like to draw a comparison between Miss Havisham and Estella: Estalla is the victim of her husband´s disrespect as Miss Havisham.

María dijo...

Helen! Hi again! (We are everywhere...) You never told me about that marvellous course you are making! You have to tell us! And you should also read Great Expectations; you know, "we have to be a little bit wiser" and to read every classic which cuts in front of us!
Mar, please, don´t apologize for disagreeing! I like disagreement, it´s much more fun. I believe that forgiveness is a divine virtue which few human beings possess! I can only talk about myself, and knowing me I would say that the ability to forgiveness depends on the harm´s grade and its consequences, and of course and most important, the person who did the harm.

MAR (5ºA) dijo...

Sorry, I wrote:I would like to add that she also lost Estella and have nothing now. And It should be: and has nothing now.

MAR (5ºA) dijo...

I´m sorry I wrote: I would like to add that she also lost Estella and have nothing now. And it should be: and has nothing now.

Carmen dijo...

Well, a most interesting discussion on forgiveness. I think that Mar is right when she says that forgiveness is something complicated and spirirtual which involves no other feeling and have to agree that if resentment and hostility are there, it means that you have not really forgiven the person. As it stands we find it trememdously difficult to forgive honestly and truly. Why is this so? Because though in the action of forgiving only one person is involved, in the action of asking for forgiveness two people are involved, thus we, being human, almost always consider that part of the business, which is what María mentions rightly, too. Is the person truly repentant? Will she change? Are common questions when we are considering forgiveness. I think we are scared of having the suffering inflicted o us again.
In the case of the story, we have Miss H who actually feels devastated at what the effect of that pseudo-game she had started, trivially, "because Estella was growing up so beautiful". We kind of get the impression that the game dawned on her and poor Pip was the mouse they, or Miss H, picked on to practice. When she realizes Estella´s coldness to her (before she had been quite happy, mind), and witnesses Pip´s state of "heart affairs", she touches rock bottom, probably realizes what a waste her life has been, and...tries to make amends, totally disorientated as she follows Pip´s indications, which, to a certain exent proves how lost, what little personality she really has.
In this she is opposed to Magwich, who is the character who knows, together with Wemmick, who know what they want and how to act. I think that this is what Pip likes in Magwich, what he was looking for, what he needed, Joe, good though he is,is incapable of guiding Pip, as he is weak (mrs. Joe tyranizes him and he only tells Pip off nicely, once or twice but he is not strong enough, worried as he is to control his physical strength).

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Wilkie Collins

Wilkie Collins