Dickens is probably the best narrator in English, we hope you enjoy the privilege of reading this great novel during the year 2010-2011.
16 de octubre de 2010
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Wilkie Collins
Quiénes somos
- EOIGoya_Inglés
- El Departamento de Inglés de a Escuela Oficial de Idiomas (EOI) "Goya" se suma con este proyecto de blog, con el blog de teatro y con su página de vídeos en YouTube a la explotación de las nuevas tecnologías como parte de la enseñanza de idiomas en la enseñanza pública en Madrid. Un cálido agradecimiento a CMF, sin cuya colaboración esto no sería posible.
Concurso 2007-08
547 comentarios:
«El más antiguo ‹Más antiguo 201 – 400 de 547 Más reciente› El más reciente»I'm sorry. In my las comment I wanted to say:
"Dickens achieveS to shake us with the thrill of the stone FACE"
I’m sorry.
When I was to post a new comment, I reread my previous one and I detected another mistake. When I wrote it, I did not realize that I did a double negative. So, instead of “men are alarmed, though they still have not got nothing”, I should have written:
“men are alarmed, though they have not caught anything yet”
Carmen, I have just finished “The Guernay Literary....” And I agree with you about the great difference in quality between it and the masterpiece of Dickens that we are reading.
At the end of this writing there are some loose ends. I think that the writing is everything you said in your comment of January 10. In my opinion, had I to highlight the main characteristic of this writing, I would choose one of the aspects that you have mentioned: life in itself, that includes all the others.
The book reflects life as it is: different emotions and feelings, agreements and disagreements,....... The end is surprising because the story is sharply interrupted, without making a final reflection or arriving to any conclusion. Therefore the reader is in the awkward position of having to get involved and make a review of the work to try to draw some conclusions.
Chapter 9
The conversation between the Marquis and his nephew is so sharp; they say that the power is achieved because people have fear. The French Aristocracy used to hold the right of life and death and ruled by fear.
The marquis is proud of it, but Charles has different feelings.
Sometimes we feel like Charles. We belong to a system that we do not like and that we are not responsible totally but we are not capable to redress.
Nowadays fear also is a powerful weapon to be people in hands, it is very well known by government, bosses, enterprises …
The Marquis have malicious irony -joking about his nephew prospering in England and smiling with sarcasm when he asks for the doctor and his daughter.
Charles wants to live a new life according to a “new Philosophy” that is taking place – all people are born equal.
The sounds of the night and the beginning of the day are wonderfully depicted – the birds carol and the stone faces set the pace of the time.
Then the routine life in the chateaux is broken and everything and everybody are in a hurry. The long and beautiful description is a preparation for a surprise. The Marquis is murdered.
So expressive is his face that seems to be angry in spite of being dead.
In this chapter we can feel that things are changing and the revolution is near in two facts. First, when Charles renounces of his fortune and has the intention to help people, he represents the new ideals of justice
Secondly when the Marquis is murdered we can feel that the tension is increasing
Chapter 9
The conversation between the Marquis and his nephew is so sharp; they say that the power is achieved because people have fear. The French Aristocracy used to hold the right of life and death and ruled by fear.
The marquis is proud of it, but Charles has different feelings.
Sometimes we feel like Charles. We belong to a system that we do not like and that we are not responsible totally but we are not capable to redress.
Nowadays fear also is a powerful weapon to be people in hands, it is very well known by government, bosses, enterprises …
The Marquis have malicious irony -joking about his nephew prospering in England and smiling with sarcasm when he asks for the doctor and his daughter.
Charles wants to live a new life according to a “new Philosophy” that is taking place – all people are born equal.
The sounds of the night and the beginning of the day are wonderfully depicted – the birds carol and the stone faces set the pace of the time.
Then the routine life in the chateaux is broken and everything and everybody are in a hurry. The long and beautiful description is a preparation for a surprise. The Marquis is murdered.
So expressive is his face that seems to be angry in spite of being dead.
In this chapter we can feel that things are changing and the revolution is near in two facts. First, when Charles renounces of his fortune and has the intention to help people, he represents the new ideals of justice
Secondly when the Marquis is murdered we can feel that the tension is increasing
I’ve been writing this morning but my comments have disappeared. About chapter 10, I think that in this chapter Charles Dickens speaking about love, use o lot of time this word "love" and describe the Mr Darnay feelings with a very pleasant way.
About the film King's speech, I want to say that I've understood it very well, and there is no doubt that that is due to the fact that our teacher is Carmen. I think she is really the best.
EMILIA 5º C
Dr Manette rejoiced when he saw Charles Darney. “He was now a very energetic man indeed, with a great firmness of purpose, strength of resolution, and vigour of action.”
But, after a quiet and friendly conversation with Mr Darnay, who was very condescending to him, Mr Manette became very nervous and suffered a shock and a psychological regression to his mental state of the time of the prison. And we have seen him, at the end of the chapter taking refuge in his shoemaking.
In my opinion, Mr Manette is afraid of something we don’t know yet. I believe that Mr Manette thinks that Mr Darnay’s marriage with his daughter involves any danger to her and to himself. It would explain his constraint along his conversation with Mr Darnay and his final collapse.
Mr Manette wanted to ignore the reality because it frightened him, therefore he said to Mr Darnay not to tell him his real name. But it is only a trick that does not resolve the problem, it only postpones the danger, and his mind does not accept it. So, his subconscious rebels and provokes the symptoms of his ancient mental disease.
Chapter 10
I think Darnay's love declaration is very kind and clever. Kind because he talked first to her father, even before starting any romance with Lucie, and at the same time it's very clever because, as he explained in his conversation with Mr. Manette, the relation between father and daughter is too strong, so only with the favour of him Darnay could get Lucie.
Talking about the connection between Darnay and Mr. Manette, I don't think the father fears are because of the future, I believe that all is more related with the past and, as Eugenio said in class, with Darnay's family.
Antonio
5º-B
CHAPTER 10
Charles is deeply in love for Lucie. He is not a selfish man. Merciful as he is he does not want to hurt Dr.Manette. He promises not to separate him from his daughter.
He has sacrificed his fortune in France in order to marry Lucie.
Dr. Manette suspects that Charles could be dangerous for him. But he is willing to overcome his apprehension against Charles for Lucie shake.
I think that he is a generous father who is willing to sacrifice himself for Lucie’s happiness.
In addition we can remember how the Marquis smiled when he questioned Charles about a doctor and his daughter. It suggests that Everemond’s family knows something about Doctor’s history.
I think that Mr Charles Darnay’s behaviour was appropriate to achieve his target. He knew that the affection between father and daughter was so strong that, without Dr Manette’s support, he could not marry his daughter. So, according with his interest he acted right.
I also think, like Eugenio and Sosias, that the problem is related, above all, to the pass. In my opinion, Dr Manette’s constraint during his conversation with Mr Darnay and his reject of knowing Mr Darnay’s real name, must be in relation with some painful experience suffered by Dr Manette concerning Mr Darnay's family.
And though we cannot guess the future, we can imagine that, if there has been a strong conflict between both families in the pass, Dr Manette has some reluctance and fear about the possibility of his daughter marring Mr Darnay. So, in a sense, the future is also involved, because his daughter is going to enter in a family that he abhor, though Mr Darnay be a nice person.
Your last post I have liked very much, Isidro, one sees that you have given it some thought and have read the chapter carefully and found the thread that connects all the chapter and which is the stone of the castle to which he keeps coming back. Well ddone.
Today when we were doing chapter 10 I think you have missed the sacrifice that Dr. Manette bears in favour of his daughter´s happiness...he will not impede her relationship with him, which he must have noticed...budding.
Carmen, did mention something to this effect to me at the end of the lesson...
Why does he say those last words to Charles Darnay?
Isidro, I´m glad you are of my opinion, the Guernesey is entertaining but nothing else.
Carmen, good analysis and conclusion of your post chapter 9
Emilia...do I perceive a certain irony when you say that I am the best????? I said at the beginning of the year that MY STUDENTS are always the best, not me...thoguh I have to admit that bad I´m not...but a teacher without students behind is...nothing, and where are you??? certainly not where you should be!!!
Anyway, I am glad you have understood the film, it´s great to feel that you are mastering the language of Shakespeare...
Sosias, yes, you are on the right track...it msut be the past, he must know something terrible, disgraceful, connected with Darnay, don´t you think? and he to marry his daughter!!!
Isidro I don´t think he abhors the family...he fears them...
Carmen you are more on the track, both families know each other...one despises, one fears and now they could get united through the silly blonde... trouble is ahead....
In chapter 10, we can appreciate the Mr. Darnay´s deliberate and brilliant way of acting, related to the Lucie affair.
So, as several mates have properly said some ancient heartless event links the two families, Dr. Manette and Mr. Darnay. Then, it can be hinted from different sentences in the chapter. For example, a very illustrative and meaningful is the paragragh in which we can observer the Dr. Manette´s disgusting and uneasy situation during the Mr. Darnay´s speech about Lucie. Therefore, Dr. Manette knows that he is obligated to listen to the Mr. Darnay´s talk to avoid telling him the truth. By then, we can mentally portrait the Dr. Manette´s desire had been that Mr. Darnay had never started that statement.
In addition, another fact that supposedly shows the connection between the two families is in the chaptar 9. So, it is when the Marquis sharply inquires his nephew, about a Doctor, in a very tricky and reluctant way. However short the speaking was we all understood there was a hidden story.
On the other hand, all the comments posted about treat the undergrounds in a dreadful, cruel and fighty way between two families.
If it had been a flirting matter Dr. Manette´s reactions would have been the same. And then, what about if Mr. Darnay and Lucie were close relatives...
Yes, it is right that Mr Manette has a great sacrifice by his daughter, accepting the possibility of Mr Darnay being his daughter’s husband. During the conversation to Mr Darnay we notice his constraint, and his disgust is evident, but he acts generously subordinating his feeling to his daughter’s, therefore he gave the promise to Mr Darnay without any condition. And to leave no doubt about this he says: “ any fancies, any reasons, any apprehensions, anything whatsoever, new or OLD, against the man she really loved, the direct responsibility thereof not lying on his head, they should all be obliterated for her safe. She is everything to me; more to me than suffering, more to me than wrong, more to me.”
So , he does not want to be a handicap in his daughter’s happiness, but the effort he has to do become him ill. He abhorS, hateS, fearS, …..Mr Darnay’s family, and he is going to enter, with his daughter, into this family!!! I think that it is normal that he should feel distress. Dont’t you?
Hi Folks!!! An advice for you: Today in the web which I sent you yesterday by e.mail you can download the film "The King´s Speech" in english. So , if you are interesting in watch it, you can get it , just two links.
Hi folks! We have another oportunity to make this blog more useful for all, and at the same time, a place to interchange opinions.
So, let's re-start!
In the chapter that we have spoken about this afternoon (no. 11) I had been shocked for this sentence: "Marry. Provide somebody to take care of you". It's true that be with another person involves to take care of him/her, and vice versa. But, is the only meaning? I don't think so. Marry, for me, means to love a person, know how she/he is, accept his/her personality and know that he/she is not the best in the world, but for you, is a good person to share your life with. And for you, why does marry mean?
In my opinion, Lucie’s father reaction is more generous that the one of Emma’s father. But both cases are similar in which the two marriages are only possible because the husbands charge with the fathers, Mr Manette and Mr Woodhouse respectively. What do you think about this?
In other time, it was normal that a woman should renounce to marry because she considered that their first duty was to take care of her fathers. Do you think that things are changed today in this point?
What do you think about if it is better to a married man, to live with his father in law, or with his mother in law? And in the case of a married woman?
Anna I agree with you.
As Mr Lorry would say, to Mr Stryver, marrage is only a matter of business.
I believe that he is a selfish man than only thinks of himself. He only thinks about what he can obtain; in his head doesn’t enter the idea of reciprocity. Thus, he says: “she is a charming creature, and I have made my mind to please myself; on the whole, I think I can afford to please myself.”
Moreover, he is also a boastful man that has a high self-opinion, and he looks the other over his should. It seems that Mr Stryver doesn’t imagine that Miss Manette could reject him; therefore he talks to Mr Carton of his intention as if it were a thing already made.
Mr Stryver’s vanity is surprising, as we can see in this words: “She will have in me a man already pretty well off, and a rapidly rising man, and a man of some distinction: it is a piece of good fortune for her, but she is worthy of good fortune”.
Talking about Stryver I think we have another case of succes-numbed mind, that is the reason why he doesn't imagine his proposal might be rejected.
Antonio
5º-B
Well, we are more "lively" here in the blog, so perhaps we have awaken after my conclusion that Emma "killed" you...I did not consider that it could have been "a tale" and me...such a good story cannot leave you snoring....
Anyway, It is interesting that Manolo and Isidro comment on the fact that there is a relationship between the two famillies previous to the meeting of the two young prospective lovers. The quote that Isidro copied is definetely important, it shows the sacrifice parents (some) are capable of doing for their children.
Though I have often criticised parents (being one myself I include myself, too), we have to admit that generosity as that of a parent cannot be equalled, only by a lover (???...not as often). Read the quote carefully.
I think the two families know each other...but, why should the Marqquis have Dr. Maette watched by his spies? ....
Isidro, it is much better to live with father-in-law!!!!Women have forever renounced marriage to take care of parents...I don´t think that this is common nowadays, but one never knows. The best is to act well and have a clear conscience, the thing is that many times, when you know this it is...too late.
Mr. Woodhouse is certainly more selfish than Dr. Manette, he hasn´t suffered at all!!! Dr. Manette is grateful to his daughter and wants her to be happy; Mr. Woodhouse doesn´t care aat all for Emma´s happiness and only thinks abot his comfort, part of which is that "what is is right"anti-change
Anna, do you think that when we marry nowadays we only marry for love????? Honestly you will have to give it another thought!!!!!!
Stryver wants a wife and is well-off enough to please himself; how amny men "please themselves", currently with models, actresses, etc. when they are well-off?
How many women are thankful, or should be, now too, when they are proposed by a well-off suitor?
In most cases, when you marry, certainly nowadays you are NO MORE in love!!!!
Sosias, you are right, another case of mind-numbed by success...However Mr. Stryver considers himself as a good match for Lucie and ...he is! What has she got? Family? No. Money? No. Connections? No. Most women under these circumstances would be glad to marry Stryver.
What annoys me of Mr. Stryver is not what he says, which is very honest, but how he says it and the fact that he thinks that Sydney is only fit for "somebody in the landlady way...against a rainy day", but to be perfctly honest, do we think that such a man as Carton could marry a Duchess?
I agree with you Carmen, how Mr. Stryver talks to Carton is the worst and no, we don't think Carton could marry a Duchess.
But, on the other hand, I find Mr. Carton as a character very interesting and I think Stryver's intentions, when he talks to him, are not only to be honest. In my opinion, he is trying to eliminate competitors or, at least, interferences.
Well..many opinions today to comment!!!. First of all, I´d like to point to the issue of marriage: I think that ,when you are young , perhaps you get marry for love, because we still keep the ilusion, the dream of our "blue prince", but when you are getting older , things change.
Ussually, marriages are not only for love. Passion last very little , and love changes ...... Marriage is a contract in which you are looking for forming your own family, having your own house, finding your security in life, in short.....building and sharing a same project with some one.
Do you really think that Mr. Stryver is in love with Miss Mannette??? or in reality the reason why he wants marry her is because she is a "good deal"??? She is very attractive, quite, kind, good educated..tender, she is not very intelligent but conformist...so , she is the perfect choice for a man to marry!!!
Secondly...I agree with Carmen and Antonio. It is not offensive what is said by Mr. Stryver but it is very annoying the way in which is said.
It is true, Mr. Stryver is a good match for Lucie but the way of exposing it is not the best. He has money, connections, good work... but he has not "good manners"....for relating.
On the other hand, Sydney is more intelligent, better educated, he is from a good family but he is missed of all the qualities I listed before about Mt. Stryver.
Not always gets success the best one..Don´t you think????
In my opinion the way Mr Stryver treats Mr Carton is unacceptable. It is true that chapter 11 is a conversation between two drunken “friends” at five o’clock, and we can imagine the state of both two. But even in this situation, Mr Stryver should show more respect to a man who works to him and has shared many experiences with himself.
I think that Mr Stryver is a bad person. If even does Mr Stryver respect the person who works so many hours a day with him, what can expect the others? Some of his expressions are too much hurtful, as: “you are such an insensible dog”, or “you are a disagreeable fellow”, or “I have been ashamed of you, Sydnay”.
Stryver seems a heartless man. And I say that “he seems” instead of saying “he is”, because he is not sober when he says this expressions.
Otherwise, Mr Carton is too much weak, pusillanimous, pessimistic and resigned. It is possible that this night/morning, when he should go home, like at the end of chapter five of the first book, he will throw himself down in his clothes on his neglected bed, and its pillow will be wet with wastes tears.
I'm sorry.
In my last comment, my reference was to the chapter five of the SECOND BOOK.
As Carmen, I do not think it possible that Mr Carton should marry Miss Manette. I think that Mr Carton in relation with Mr Stryver is like a hen in relation with a peacock. So, in my opinion, never could Sidnay overshadow Mr Striver.
Therefore, I think that Mr Stryver’s words are inadequate and out of place. In my opinion, he is wrong in what he says and also in the way he says it. I think that nobody says normally words so strong to other person to his face, unless it be in the heat of an argument.
I think it is not acceptable that, without any reason and after having worked to him so hard, Mr Stryver should treat Sydnay this way. Above all, taking into account that Mt Stryver knows that Sydnay cannot be a rival to him. And I don’t believe that there should be a good way of saying so harsh words.
And, do you really think that it is not offensive what is said by Mr Stryver?
Reyes, you are right in what you say, but remember that we like Sydney, because we see him with perspective and we know his thoughts, for someone who sees him in his drawing-room, he..offends when he talks, it is not only Darnay that he molested after the trail, but good, old Mr. Lorry!!!!
Isidro, I think that mr. Carton would please any woman more, any day, than Mr. Styver!!!! I don´t think Miss Manette would like a man like him at all, a good match as he is, but honestly to have to live with such a conceited man!!! I mean he analyses well, what he says is full of practical reasoning, but young women hardly this, don´t you think?
I don´t think that Stryver, Sosias, would ever think that carton could compete with him in anything connected with women!!! He has a point, too, he knows Carton very well, he knows that he is insecure and lacks ambition, he knows that he is stuck, dead, alive but dead to live, because he is weak to fight
How would you tell a mate, to his face, in a good way, that he/she is an insensible dog, a disagreeable fellow, and that you have been ashamed of him/her?
I think that it is too strong to tell anyone, least of all a friend, and there is no way of soften it.
In my opinion, Sydnay Carton does not merit the expression “insensible dog”. When Carton calls Sydnay “dog” he insults him without Sidnay having done anything to deserve it.
And Stryver knows that Sydnay is not insensible, because he knows his sufferings. He told him in chapter 5 of the second book: “The chacal”, that he was “the old seesaw…Up one minute and down the next; now in spirits and now in despondence!”. So, he knows very well that Sydnay is very vulnerable and that his words hurt him.
And knowing Stryver’s pride, it is impossible that he sees Sydnay as a competitor. I think that he acts like this, not because he wants to eliminate competitors, but because he does not forget that once Sydnay denied Miss Manette’s beauty. And he fears Sydnay’s irony.
So, Stryver wanted to cut any criticism of Sydney in advance, that is, before saying to him that the person he intends to marry was Mis Manette. But, for that, he had not right to humiliate Sydnay.
Carmen I agree with you... Mr. Carton would please any woman ...but he has not any perspective in life, he is not ambitious, a man without aspirations is not a good match for a woman, that´s the reason why Stryver feels so confident and pride of himself, because he is a man who wants to get more and more in all aspects of his life.
I like Mr. Carton but I know Stryver is in the correct position to provide any woman everything she wishes........!!!!
How many men we meet that they are not well educated and they have not good manners but they have managed successful, money, good position in life??? Hardly, have we met a lot men around us and we can watch them every day in tv and newspapers;
The most important thing in life is to have good contacts, to be in the right place and the right moment.....definitly, to have luck....and Stryver has it.
Summarizing.. a lucky man in front of a disappointed man: Stryver against Mr. Carton.
Carmen I don’t agree with you in which Mr Carton would be more attractive to any woman than Mr Stryver. Both are accomplished drunks, but while Stryver is successful and optimistic, Sydnay is frustrated and unsuccessful. And, in my opinion, most women prefer beside them a man optimistic and with a promising future than a sad, frustrates and without future.
Moreover, when I said that Mr Carton was not a competitor to Stryver, I said it taking the point of view of Stryver. I intended to refute the idea of Mr Stryver humiliating Sydnay because he wanted eliminate competitors. What I wanted to say is that Stryver had not the excuse of Mr Carton being a competitor to attack him. So, his behaviour to Sydnay was totally unjustified.
Anyway, we know that neither Stryver nor Carton can compete with Charles Darney.
Why do Sydney Carton accept that Mr .s Stryver insults him all the time calling him, in chapter 11, for example "you are such an insensible dog"'.
REYES 5º B, as I'm not in your group, I didn`t receive any email with the link for film King's Speech, and I should be interested. Can you please inform here about the link, because I'm going to class on Mondays and Wednesday.
Thanks.
Emilia 5º C
(Chapter 11)
If the proposal of marriage of Charles was full of love, the Striver’s proposal is very practical.
Striver is not an evil man but he is selfish. All his actions are focused on himself.
He thinks that to be married with Lucie can improve his situation and Lucie will be happy because he is a distinguished man.
There is a great contrast between the Charles and Striver’s feelings.
Chales is more romantic. He loves Lucie and only wants her to marry him if she is in love.
Stryver’s views of marriage represent the traditional Victorian view of marriage: it is something made for practical reasons.
I like Carton’s sarcasm telling Stryver: “you are such a sensitive and poetical spririt”
But Carton is depressed and do not have hope in life. Stryver worries about him and thinks that Carton can find redemption getting married.
sorry: he does not have ...
Hi!!! Emilia... Here your are the web page where you can download many movies and series from BBC, including "The King´s Speech".
http://porsiempreorgulloyprejuicio.blogspot.com/
It is , really, a very good page to practice english, you can download them with or without subtitles.
Enjoy it yourself.
Carmen Segura, I agree with you. I think Charles is really in love with Miss Mannette, and he just wants her to marry because he adores her and he does not mind if she is a good match or not. It is a true love.
But, on the other hand, Stryver wants her to marry because it is the way for him to prosper , looking for his own interest. This would be a practical marriage, without many commitments or obligations , because Lucy is a conformist woman, like in the Victorian era...a woman prepared for marriage, "the perfect wife", she is not very intelligent but beautiful, she is not very problematic because she accepts her destiny........as it is.
“The King’s speech” suggests many issues in relation with the importance of the language. One of them is that without language there is not thinking, but without thinking the language loses its meaning and therefore his interest.
In the case of stammering, the person affected suffers very much, because there is thinking but it cannot be expressed, and people tend to think that the inability of expression implies a lack of thought. Thus, if the King George VI had had a failure in the reading of his speech, this would have implied the lack of recognition of his ability to govern. So, there was too much at stake in the reading of the speech.
The stammering people’s difficulties are somehow similar to the ones implied in the learning of a second language. They are very different problems, but in both cases there is a lack of conjunction between word and concept.
In my opinion, children develop spontaneously their thought at the same time that learn their mother tongue, but the learning of a second language at a late age involves a gap between thought and language that is quite disturbing. And the problem is very complex because many factors are involved, hence the advance in the learning be very slow and frustrating.
I think The King´s speech is a very meaning, illustrative and instructive film, so you can spread your knowledge about the British throne succeding.
It was a really good scene when Albert (Colin Firth)intended to fire a cigarrette to get him relaxed,and the therapist (Geoffrey Rush)approached him and said "Do not do that...". The subsequent Albert´s reaction deeply reflected the fact they both would have different arguements in such an awkward relationship.
Had Albert achieved his improvement without his wife´s forebearing and steadiness.
Oddly though it seemed the wife is at the same level of the two main characters, Albert and the therapist.
Hi everybody!
What do you think about Mr. Carton´s reaction when Mr. Stryver tells him his proposal of marriage?
Mr.Stryver asks directly if he approves it, but Carton answers with another question.
I am not sure, but it could be another suitor for Lucie.
Chapter 12 begins saying that “Mr Stryver having made up his mind to that MAGNANIMOUS BESTOWAL of good fortune on Doctor’s daughter resolved to make her happiness known to her before he left town for the Long Vacation”
So, we don’t need to imagine Mr Stryver’s first intention, because Dickens states it clearly.
“Anybody who had seen him projecting himself INTO SOHO, while he was yet on Saint Dunstan’s side of temple Bar, bursting in his full-blown way along the pavement, to the jostlement of all weaker people, MIGHT HAVE SEEN HOW SAFE AND STRONG HE WAS.”
So, he was so exultant and so elated and sure of himself that he was on the street, rolling the people in its path. And, when he was in front of Tellson, he decided to enter in Tellson Bank not to seek advice from Mr Lorry, but to reveal to him the BRIGHTNESS of the SOHO HORIZON.
But, after talking to Mr Stryver, he got crestfallen.
Well, first of ll thank God we have a little bit more of movement, well done.
Secondly I said Mr. carton WOULD PLEASE women more than Mr. Stryver, meaning that he has more feeling therefore he would know better how to deal with women,how to treat them.
Thirdly I do think two "bucks" can talk clearly to each other as Carton and Sydney do!!! Sydney is used to hearing Stryver go on and on about how good he is and how disastrous Sydney is, and consider two men...drunk.
Carmen, you are absolutely right when you say that Darnay loves Lucy and values her, while Stryver likes her beausty and sees her as the possibility of making him happy and contributing to improving his circcumstances. Of course Lucy will choose Darnay...who wouldn´t? Stryver we can understand but love him? No.
Isidro you have explained George VI´s problem very clearly, it was a matter of showing that he was not stupid, and when you cannot answer back because there is a speech impediment you appear to be an idiot!!!
yes, you poor students...suffer like Bertie!!! but the good news is that English is not your mother tongue!!
Manolo, I did like that scene very much it is the first time that the teacher says "no" to him in their relationship and the first time, very possibly and inferior says that to him so clearly, too. my rules, says Lionel, and it is true, to learn you have to follow the rules of the teacher!!
Carolina, Carton, suitor or no, likes Lucie, too, he was the one to notice that she was fainting at court. Do you think, however that he will have the courage, and intelligence to propose?
Yes, Isidro, your group and me know that you think mr. Stryver is full of his success...
Besides Stryver´s intention of marrying Lucie, I would like to ask you your opinion about this chat among Doctor Manette and Charles Darnay in chapter 10, when the latter reminds the Doctor that he has loved too, and the Doctor gets nervous and asks Charles not to recall that. What is this about??
We can’t deny Mr Stryver’s intelligence. We know his interest in getting married with Miss Manette, but he imagined that Mr Lorry had to have a strong reason to take a position so firm in front of him. Therefore he decided to deal with the fact of his failure and he adopted a position of concealment. So, he full the table of papers and books and, when Mr Lorry arrived at night, he pretended to have forgotten the subject of his visit
He achieved to bear quite well his frustration. Nevertheless, when, “after a full half-hour of bootless attempts, Mr Lorry told him that his visit had confirmed his opinion, Mr Stryver’s reaction surprised Mr Lorry because he was a little enigmatic.
In my opinion, Mr Lorry could understand that Mr Stryver should say that he was sorry for the poor father account or for the family, but he could not understand that Stryver said he was sorry for him. So Mr Lorry asked for an explanation, and Mr Stryver said: “no matter, no matter”, but Mr Lorry didn’t agree with him and said: “but it does matter”
So, after Mr Lorry insistence, Mr Stryver had to make a large explanation in which he said that he was well out of his mistake and no harm was done. He admitted that Mr Lorry could “not control the mincing vanities and giddinesses of empty-headed girls”, and he thanked him for his advice.”
But Mr Lorry, was so “taken aback that he looked quite stupidly at Mr Stryver shouldering him toward the door.”
In my opinion, had Mr Stryver told Mr Lorry simply that he thanked very much his advice and had given him good by kindly, Mr Lorry would have considered very suitable his hehaviour, but he got very surprised of Mr Stryver attempt of remaining undisturbed on its pedestal as the only winner of a losing battle, by a discourse that was not at the height of his professional prestige.
Brianda, in my opinion, Mr Manette doesn’t want to recall the time where he was in love with his wife because it is too painful to him. To recall that time implies to him to go back to a happiness that was cut radically and abruptly by his imprisonment.
Otherwise, it is possible that Mr Charles Darnay’s family were implied in Mr Manette’s misfortune. And therefore it is very difficult to both to talk about the past.
Remember that Mr Darnay has last more than a year and a half to declare his love to Miss Manette because “he had his reason this, he knew very well.”
And Mr Manette alludes to the same theme, when he says in the same chapter 10: “any fancies, any reasons, any apprehension, anything wathsoever, new and OLD, against the man she really loved-the direct responsibility thereof not lying on his head, they can be obliterated for her sake.”
In my opinion, it is very clear that there is an OLD event, of sad recall to Mr Manette, of which Mr Darnay’s family was responsible, though not lying directly in Mr Darnay’s head because obviously he was very young.
First of all, I would like to comment about chapter 12 dialogue we enthusiastycally had on Tuesday. So, I think it shows the difficulty in reading any Charles Dickens´ masterpiece. Besides, it is also very pleasant and enjoyable that we can appreciate contrary points of viwe, about the smallest details we did not percieve at the reading. As a conclusion, it will be extremely good for all of us because it will increase our chapter level of understanding, and it will equally make easy our speaking in public.
On the other hand, it was also positve to see a more acceptable quantity of posts on the blog, and then we all can step by step do the blog more dynamic,interactive and useful. Of course, if we went on in that pace we would undoubtly overtake the Jane Eyre blog, we are only thirteen posts behind. As you know, our teacher, Carmen, wants to be the best, and works wiht the target of reaching that position, with his inseparable students.
Come on everybody!!!
Sorry for the mistakes,
It is also POSITIVE...
WITH the target of...with HER inseparable students.
I don't know how I did it, I could enter in the blog. Too tired to post something. Good night
Manolo, I agree with you. I think that our participation in the blog is very important to our progress. At least in my case, I can assure you that this is true. I want you to know that I enrolled in the Language School last year for the first time, after having passed the courses of That’s English six years before.
So, as you can imagine, my level was very low in the beginning. And, although I still have many difficulties, I notice that I have improved a lot. I think that, after the great work of our teachers, one of the more important factors in my improvement is my intensive participation in the blog.
At first, I thought that writing was not very important, but I followed Marta’s advice last year and I realized that she was right. And this year, as well Carmen has repeated many times the importance of our participation in the blog, and I have intensified my presence in it. The result is that I am realizing that English language structures burst in my head with an ease that I thought I could never achieve. Now, at least, I dare to participate in class, while at the beginning of the course I could not.
So, mates, let’s us follow Manolo’s advice and participate frequently in the blog!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Finally, I apologize for making so large arguments, for using sometimes too long quotations from the text, or for insisting in topics known of everybody, but my first interest is to acquire fluidity in the use of the English language.
For example, I might have expressed in very few words all I have said in this comment, but I have lengthened it intentionally because, for me, it is, above all, a practice of writing in English language. And I know that the more we write the better.
O my goodness! chapter 13!!
Finally Mr Carton dares to spit his feelings out! What a relief for him!
Even when he does it in such a pessimistic way. Will this words make the lady reconsider her view about their relationship?
I would like to highlight Mr Lorry good qualities, as a person and as a professional man. He is a sincere and loyal friend, he is a good professional, he doesn’t use strange subterfuges and he takes into account in every moment the consequences of his acts. We have seen his firmness in front of Mr Stryver, defending Miss Manette. When Stryver said that Miss Manette was a mincing fool, and Mr Lorry told him that he wouldn’t tolerate any disrespectful comment of her.
I think that Mr Lorry is a cold man, but at the same time he is a man that never would betray a friend and it is for me a quality that I appreciate very much.
Mr Lorry could have held a position of condescension with Mr Stryver after being rejected in order to make more bearable his rebuff. With his attitude Mr Lorry closes the possibility of his friendship with Mr Stryver because he never will forget that he has been a witness of his humiliation.
Mr Lorry could have taken the position of not rejecting Mr Stryver’s criticism of Miss Manette, or even he could have showed him his agreement with the idea of Miss Manette being a mincing fool woman, because this didn’t compromise him in anything. Had Mr Lorry acted this way he would left open the possibility of a future friendship with Mr Stryver, but Mr Lorry’s personality doesn’t permit him to adopt an ambivalent position.
Carmen, would you mind to concrete a little more the writing we are supposed to do about Contemporary Revolutions.
Should it be focused in one of those films, or it could also be about one singular item in that phenomenum, or it could even be a broad prospective about all revolutions.
Besides, I imagine the deadline is next Thursday, two weeks later than The King´s speech composition.
Thank you, in advance.
Mr Stryver’s fruitless effort to hide his failure has caught my attention. He made an intentionally sophisticated and confused discourse in order to conceal his frustration. In my opinion, Dickens plays with the “point of view” and the “selfish or unselfish aspect”, to show Mr Stryver’s nervousness.
I think that Mr Stryver had to see the perplexity reflected in Mr Lorry’s face during and after his discourse. And when he was alone, he was not satisfied with himself, and “was lying back on his sofa, winking at the ceiling.”
I imagine his mood when he tidied up all the books and paper he had put on the table as a part of his stratagem. Don’t you?
In conclusion, Stryver’s reaction was similar to the one of the fox in the famous fable. In essence, his long discourse said: “the grapes were not ripe”. But he knew that he had not achieved to mislead Mr Lorry.
Well Isidro, I agree with you in your last post, but I would like to sparkle some ideas.
Firstly, I think Mr. Striver´s love strategy was so dreadfully drawn that he consequently got the unexpected outcome, for him of course.
His ill-preapared tactic was base on a little pinch of selfishness and boastfulness. So, instead of behaving in a more methodic and reasonable way he opted for thinking he was the unique well-educated and worthy person in the coming relationship.
Arrogant though he was his results would have been more profitable if he had treated of getting some previous information related to the Soho affair, among the closer people around Lucie, even Mr. Lorry but in the proper way. Therefore, he would have known his actual possibilities, and he could have valued to make a formal engagement declaration.
If it had ocurred he would not have visited Mr. Lorry, in the way of Lucie´s house, to try getting some handicaps flattened by Mr. Lorry´s intercourse.
Had Mr. Striver acted in a more altruist and thinkable manner he would not have had the necessity of swallowing Mr. Lorry´s words.
Hi everbody!
Brianda I agree with you, how interesting chapter 13 will be! At last Mr. Carton shows himself to somebody.. Sorry, I know we´ll comment it on Monday, but I can´t wait!
Sorry, everybody
Brianda, he doesn´t want to remember his happy life with his young wife; it is painful to see what he has lost because of his imprisonment.
Manolo, the composition is a review of the week. You should mention what you thought about the lecture, whether it has served to clarify certain ideas about the liberal revolutions, etc. and then mention the films. Sholud any of you choose to write about one or two of the films, becasue you were unable to attend all the events, DO SO. 300 hundred words and hand in this coming Thursday.
I´m glad that you have liked the discussion of chapter 12, also that the blog is somewhat more interesting due to the fact that we are "recalling it to life"! Dead as YOU ALL WERE, owing to Marta/Emma, or me/A Tale (that could also be!!!) it is good news to see the difference. however I´m not trying to be the best!!!! I´d like my students to learn and improve and I know that hte only way to do this is to talk and write!!!! I always mention the number of posts we had with Jane Eyre because it was a record..of the students..I had little to do with it, you are 60 i´m one.
Isidro, I´ve liked your post about mr. Lorry. Good analysis. As to the length of the rest of your posts, I understand your wish to learn, so why not try to make the quotes from the novel shorter? or avoid the summary of the chapter? Then they would be shorter and contain more your opinion/analysis which involves language production, not merely copying from the novel. This is just an idea, you can do as you please, it is a free space to do what we like..with respect, which we all show... so far
Manolo, I totally agree with you that Mr. Stryver goes about this love-business in the wrong way. His vanity and pride for what he has achieved in life, and achieved he has prevents him from looking around him and watching: he could have noticed what miss Manette felt/did not feel for him, opening his eyes would have been enough, but he doesn´t thus he makes a fool of himself.
I don´t like Mr. stryver, he doesn´t go with my character, neither does pride, vanity, etc. I´m not saying I´m free rom those..just that I dislike them, they are damaging; Do you remember that in "the Patriot" the English General is said to be suffering from pride? and they use it to beat him.
Chapter 13...quiet...shushshshsh!
Manolo I think you are right. I only disagree in the degree of Mr Stryver’s boastfulness. I think that it is not “a little pinch”, but a great boastfulness. I agree with you in what you think about what he should have done. But Mr Stryver is so self-confident that, instead of doing what you suggest, he threw himself into the pool without first checking if it had water.
I agree with all of you about your comments of Mr. Stryver...I dislike him. The comparation with the English General is perfect. Both of them use their "pride" and "vanity" to act and lead their lifes , because actually both are superficial men.
They are men of successful but they are not admired.....
Yes.. Mr. Stryver has a good job, important contacts, a good economical level...but has he good qualities, good manners???? No, in that sense he is empty.
So when you are a superficial person and your life is empty...what more do you have???? Pride and vanity are weapons to live, to overcome day by day and to face everything that happens around you..as Mr Stryver does when he is rejected as a posible match for Miss Mannette... but the same weapons can be used to destroy yourself.
Miss Mannette is a sensible woman, she has a good heart, so she does not hate Mr. Stryver but she feels compasion for him.....in short...he is a "poor" man. Isn´t he????????
Carmen, you are right, I usually stick too much to the text because my first interest has been to improve my English instead of seeking the originality. I know that, acting like this, my comments lost interest and even they are boring. So, I’ll try to be more original in my posts, although it won’t be easy for me.
Finally, I have read “The importance of being Ernest”. In my opinion, Mr Carton would have had success in his life if he had applied in his behaviour the ethic involved in the play of Oscar Wilde, that consist in giving the utmost importance to the appearance. A man must say to a woman what she wants to hear, and the truth is sometimes the last thing that a man must say to her. When the reality is unpleasant it is necessary to substitute it to an agreeable appearance.
Poor Mr Carton! His problem is the sincerity and his incapacity to hide something to himself. He can go through the life like this, showing all his cards, because he becomes vulnerable. His acting this way has assured his failure. His personality is the opposite of Stryver’s who is able of making a discourse that hides more than he shows.
Chapter 12
Dickens is ironic in this chapter naming it “a fellow of delicacy” because Stryver is not a delicate man. He speaks pointing by fingers, he walks shouldering, and all in him is straight and proud.
He is going to the courtship as if it were a case in court. Like a trial.
In one thing he has a good behaviour because in spite of his pride he swallows his failure with dignity.
He does not act as a victim he is capable to swallow down the pill and to overcome the problem.
At last Carton shows his heart! I agree with you, Brianda and Carolina, this chapter is wonderful.
Chapter 13
This chapter is dramatic. Carton breaks into tears and Lucie weeps too.
Carton’s past is a mystery and he is trapped in a depression. Perhaps he suffered a trauma when young, he said – “I am like one who died young”
The drama is because he loves and admires Lucie but he knows that their love is impossible. He is willing to sacrifice himself in order not to bring Lucie to misery.
Carton only wants that Lucie has pity of him. Even more…
He feels for her the highest love – he would do anything for her, even to give his life for her and the family she loves.
His words are full of beauty:
“I would embrace any sacrifice for you and for those dear to you”
“Think there is a man who would give his life, to keep a life you love beside you!”
but why doesn´t he do anything if he is so in love??? I do not understand!!
We see in chapter 13 that Mr Carton is a lost case. He is an emotional and intelligent man but he has not future because he has lost his self-confidence and he is a defeatist fellow. He loves Miss Manette, but he doesn’t hope she loves him, and he only seeks Miss Manette’s compassion.
Poor Mr Carton! He feels that anybody takes him into account. He needs affect and he has always needed affect. When he was young he did the work of his mates and thereby he tried to earn their affection. Since then he has always thought more in the others than in himself and now he realizes that his life has been a full failure.
In my view, Mr Carton has an inferiority complex and has lost his self-esteem, but I feel sympathy for him because he has the most important quality: he is a good person.
Mr Carton’s behaviour is very strange, not only because he seems to conform himself with Miss Manette’s pity, but because he talks of his death and says that his avowal to her will be a good remembrance in that hour.
I think that Carton is very depressed and it is possible that he be thinking in the suicide as a solution to finish with his sorrows. What do you think about this?
I don´t think Mr. Carton be thinking about committing suicide.. No... I gues when he speaks of remembrance and death is in a "methaphoric sense". It means that he has not any chance with Miss. Mannette so his possibilities have dissapeared. That´s all.
And.. I agree with Isidro: Mr. Carton is a good person and he is always helping the others but..he is trying to awake some feeling in Miss. Mannette, and "compasion"..it is.
Probably, he never see her again but with this attitude he achieves not being forgotten, I mean, being in Miss. Mannette´s mind , always.
His attitude is not very honorable, but in certain sense , it is "intelligent"...because hardly, will he be loved but he will be always remembered.
Isidro, I´m afraid that I must have used the wrong words and thus you have misunderstood me!! I do not want you to be original!!! I just suggested that you give your opinion, whether it be original or not but without summarizing the chapter or giving long quotes, perhaps starting them would be enough.
however you are free to do what suits you best.
Carton. In my opinion he has a great capacity for sacrifice, and strength of character, but he has the weakness of people who are dependant on vice, and vicious he is, I mean reread the words he uses to describe himself: "sloth and sensuality", "self-flung away", "poor creature of misuse", "drunken" he is a kind of addict and he knows that he will nto recover from this. however given that he feels so much for her he wants her to know that he will be ready to do any sacrifice for her, that he will be around to put up his appearance if need be.
Carton´s is a sad life. Dickens told us already at the end of "the Jackal", I think it was that chapter:"Sadly, sadly, the sun rose; it rose upon no sadder sight than the man of good abilities and good emotions, incapable of their directed exercise, incapable of his own help and his own happiness, sensible of the blight on him, and resigning himself to let it eat him away".
Here lies his problem in his incapacity of bettering himself.
Any Carton´s in real life?
If Carton is as you say and as he describes himself, I think it of bad taste to show his feelings in that way to the lady, because good as she is, she is going to worry a lot, and what for?? if he thinks him impossible to change??
I doubt that Mr. Carton is seeking compassion, it doesn´t go with his character, he is not a victim who expects others to do things for him, who sits inside his room and doesn´t budge full of his depression, no, he is just self-damaging, thus he is a threat for himself.
With Miss Manette, whom he sees as a good orderly person, whose life is organized and who has the correct feelings and mixes with the correct people (father, Lorry)he recovers the ideals of his youth, of his childhood, and he wishes that time to return, or rahter the feelings of that time to return. however his character impedes return, there is no way out of what he has got himself into, it is as though he cannot stop his fall, don´t you see?
Answering Brianda:
In my opinion, sometimes people need express themselves and let the others know what they really feel. As Miss Manette is an "angel" is good for her to learn what is real life and suffer a little for a while.
Miss Manette is very kind to Mr Carton and she try to encourage him. In my opinion, Mr Carton’s declaration puts her in a difficult situation, because she is not in love with him, but she doesn’t want to hurt him. So, she did the only thing she could do: to try to convince him that he could change and become worthier to himself. But, Mr Carton is at the limit of his strength. He has wasted his time, and now it is too late to change.
I imagine Miss Manette’s perplexity before Mr Carton’s last words, offering her to do anything for her or for her family, if it were necessary. In my opinion, regardless of Mr Carton's intention, he has achieved to enter into Miss Manette's mind and disturb her, and I think, as Brianda, that it is to play a dirty trick on her. And whether he seeks it or not, his acting like this has achieved Miss Manette’s compassion.
It is amazing how Dickens plays with the sounds of the words. I read the book at the same time I listen to the audiobook, and this method provides the opportunity of enjoying the musicality of the words Dickens put carefully together. It is amazing how he plays with the sounds: I have found lot of examples, for instance: book 2, chapter 7 (I am sorry, I had to be absent from class since Christmas and I am now trying to update myself on the book) “with a wild rattle and clatter…”; book 2, chapter 8 “patches of poor rye where corn should have been, patches of poor peas and beans, patches of most coarse vegetable substitutes for wheat…” It seems as if Dickens were a poet selecting the words intelligently according to their sonority.
Laura, I completely agree with you about the musicality! It´s amazing!!!
I love it!
Carmen you has said sometimes that the disagreements are positive because they stimulate the debate, and I agree with you. Even I think that, in principle, the comments more interesting are those which show new point of view or those which provoke debates about different aspects.
But the really important thing to me, as a student of English, is to participate regardless of content, because I think that the more I participate the more I learn. So, from this point of view, in my opinion, the content of the comment is not so important as the way of transmitting it. For example, I am much more interested in knowing if I have expressed correctly my thought than in knowing if anyone agree with me or not.
I want you to know that I am very happy with your classes and that I think that your method is very good. The reading of the novel in order to have a common topic to work with; the dialogues that you stimulate, adopting sometimes radical position to provoke us; the analysis of linguistic structures of the text, that we would not see without you; your valuable explanation of grammar; the way of conducting the class, etc…
Otherwise, the blog is an extraordinary complement that I appreciate very much. I would like to have a better level of English to be able to participate much more in literary analysis, but by the moment my first interest is to try to correct my mistakes in order to improve my English.
Therefore I’m afraid that after having done my composition about the liberal revolutions, I will not be able to go to class tomorrow. So, I will not be able to deliver my composition to you and I will miss your correction.
Isidro, if you sent me your composition by e-mail I would hand it to Carmen.
Check my e-mail address on the class list, because of the blog is not the more secure space to put it.
In my view, Carton is the most interesting character of the novel due to the rich complexity of his fluctuating personality. He has a tormented mind and an inferiority complex that leads him to look for the approval of the others.
He needs affection; he always has needed affection, but now much more than ever, because Miss Manette has kindled his heart, and he knows that his life could have been different if he had not been so neglected.
Mr Carton loves Miss Manette, but he knows that Mr Darnay will marry her. He knows that he has nothing to do, since chapter 4 of the second book. In that occasion, he thought that Mr Darnay showed him clearly what he might have been. And he was jealous of him, because he never would be looked at “by that blue eyes as he was, and commiserated by that agitated face as he was”
Mr Carton is a very intelligent man and he knows that his declaration to Miss Manette is not an innocent act without any importance. He cannot ignore that his acting like this has left a mark in Miss Manette’s heart that she never will forget. He has wept and she has also wept with him. He has humiliated himself and she has encouraged him. And finally, he has done her a solemn promise and has asked her to maintain the secret and she has consented. So, they have already something in common. It is a little thing but, given the situation, he could not expect to obtain more.
By the moment, he cannot change the place with Mr Darnay, but he is trying to introduce himself surreptitiously between them.
Sorry, I'm not good at new Technology, I can't find the subject for the next composition, where does it has to appear? In this blog or in another place. Thank you and good weekend!
In my view, Carton is the most interesting character of the novel due to the rich complexity of his fluctuating personality. He has a tormented mind and an inferiority complex that leads him to look for the approval of the others.
He needs affection; he always has needed affection, but now much more than ever, because Miss Manette has kindled his heart, and he knows that his life could have been different if he had not been so slothful.
Mr Carton loves Miss Manette, but he knows that Mr Darnay will marry her. He knows that he has nothing to do, since chapter 4 of the second book. In that occasion, he thought that Mr Darnay showed him clearly what he might have been. And he was jealous of him, because he never would be looked at “by that blue eyes as he was, and commiserated by that agitated face as he was”
Mr Carton is a very intelligent man and he knows that his declaration to Miss Manette is not an innocent act without any importance. He cannot ignore that his acting like this can leave a mark in Miss Manette’s heart. He has wept and she has also wept with him. He has humiliated himself and she has encouraged him. Finally, he has made a solemn promise to her and has asked her to maintain the secret and she has consented. So, they have already something in common. It is a little thing but, given the situation, he could not obtain other thing.
By the moment, he cannot change the place with Mr Darnay, as he wished in chapter 4, but he is trying to introduce himself surreptitiously between him and Miss Manette.
I think that it is possible that one day while Mr Darnay be physically next to Miss Manette, she be thinking in Mr Carton. Don’t you?
Yesterday afternoon, when I posted my comment, I saw that it didn’t appeared immediately in the blog, but I was in a hurry and I went out. At night, I decided to post the comment that I thought that had been published, but before doing it, I decided to modify it a little. Finally, I posted it and then I realized that the comment appeared twice in the blog, thought the two last lines of the second post are different. I’m sorry.
I'm sorry.
In my last post I wanted to say:
"I decided to post the comment I thought that had NOT been published.
NEXT ESSAY:
"Discuss the speech TO BE OR NOT BE comparing it, or contrasting it with the newspaper article I have given you TODAY"
5ºC, I WILL GIVE YOU THE ARTICLE ON MONDAY
5ºB, Those of you who were not in class today WILL GET THE ARTICLE ON TUESDAY, start reading Hamlet...good luck, you can ask those of your mates who attended the lesson to help along a little.
We have the speech on the blog, so ýou can go there and read or post comments
Laura, you have made a very interesting discovery!!!! Of course he was worried about sound and you have realized that English is VERY MUSICAL!!! Well done, it is fantastic to listen to the tapes, keep it up
Isidro, well, I´m quite overpowered by your nice words!!! THANKS! You are also a very good student because YOU JOIN IN and TRY, that is all we can be hope for in life, trying, so trying, trying, trying..look where you have got yourself to, A tale and to be ...and in English!!!
Carmen asks – Any Carton in real life?
Carton is dependent on vice, alcoholism. A cousin of mine was alcoholic man and he was not capable to recover himself, he was murdered. It is very difficult to think properly when you are trapped by drugs, because your mind is affected.
So I think that Carton is very clever if he is capable to analyse his situation and to sacrifice himself in order not to damage Lucie.
Not only very clever he is but also strongly generous.
On the other hand I knew a woman like Carton. She was my brother’s girl-friend. Suddenly, she caught a degenerative illness. My brother wanted to marry her but she was very strong and broke up the relationship. My brother was crying two years but then he fell in love again.
The first one assisted to the wedding and she died tree years hence.
She sacrificed her short life, but her mind was very well and she was helped by her faith in God.
Chapter 14
It takes my attention Jerry’s job. He works as a Resurrection man. I associate resurrection with a new and happy life and not with a job that is a crime – to desecrate graves.
Other curiosity is the importance that Jerry gives to an honest prayer. It seems more superstition than faith.
Chapter 15
In this chapter we appreciate that the revolutionaries are blood-minded. They want to exterminate “the entire Evremonde race”
I think that the mender of roads exemplifies how the mob is. The mob wants spectacle above all else. He is malleable, he is a revolutionary and then he is with joy at seeing the King and Queen.
Patricia, I think that if Miss Manette is an angel, she is not like this because she has not suffered. You know her mother died when she was very young and she has recovered her father very late. You also know that she is a weak woman that faints frequently and he is not very intelligent. The only “positive” thing in her is to have a blonde hair, but I don’t believe it be sin enough to make her charge with Mr Carton’s problems.
I think that it is very fanny the passage in which Young Jerry was terribly frightened when he saw the coffin open. Doesn’t you? He got astonished and ran away feeling the dead running after him and startling with every shadow thinking that in any moment he was going to be caught.
And I have also liked very much the conversation between father and son the next day. In my opinion, this experience has been to Young Jerry like an initiatory experience that has become him in an adult. So sudden was his maturity that his father was very shocked!
Finally, don’t you think it comic Mr Cruncher way of moving his “head in a dubious and a moral way” while he gave his son very reasonable advises?
Oh, I'm very sorry.
In my last comment: DON'T YOU.
Carmen, thank you for your Cartons, The lady seems to be a very good example of the position of a "real" Mr. Carton. She did have a horrible destiny and she did sacrifice her love for your brother, when she could have chosen to marry him and at least live a brief happiness.
The first mr. cArton was more of an addict than our literature friend, and died as a result of his. A very sad destiny, too, the girl was strong he was weak. Our Carton is strong, I think.
I don´t know that I can take the view you propose, Isidro, of carton getting in between Darnay and Lucie. His objective was not that, he wants to relieve his mind. Is this selfish? I´m not sure, possibly, but people need sometimes to say things, clearly.
Chapter 14 is indeed funny, all the bits you mention are good examples, Isidro. I like the conversation between father and son, too. It is very true that Master Cruncher´s rite of passage to maturity is the coffin adventure, so when Mr. Cruncher realizes that there has been a change in his son, he is proud of him. Both seem to understand each other a lot better after this experience.
Carmen, those words are ominous "to the last of their race"..how can anyone be so thirsty for revenge???
In chapter 15 the mender of road told Monsieur Defargue and the others Jacques the imprisonment and the dead of the murderer of the Marquis. We have assisted to the secret session of the court that condemned to death the whole Marquis’s race and we have known his ingenious way of registering his agreements.
Finally, I am liked very much the end of the chapter when the mender of roads went with monsieur and madame Defarge to see the King the Queen and Court. The poor mender of roads got amazed when he saw the splendor of the court and he could not contain his enthusiasm cheering the King and the Queen. I have liked very much imagining this scene with this poor ignorant man completely elated, showing his satisfaction with such luxury, next to monsieur and madame Defargue. Don’t you?
I also think comic when the mender of road awoke of his fantastic dream and he was a little mistrustful of having been so euphoric. Then he was comforted with Monsieur Defargue words, when he said to him: “you are the fellow we want……..you make these fools believe that it will last for ever…..” It is not funny?
But at the end Madame Defargue gave him a harsh lesson of revolutionary ideology, and I imagine that her horrible look would overwhelm a little the poor mender of roads. Don’t you?
Dickens told us the atrocities that occurred in France at the times previous of the revolution. In chapter 1 he told us that a youth was sentenced to have his hands cut off, his tongue torn out with pincers and his body burned alive, because he had not knelt before a procession of monks. In chapter 15 of the second book one old man told the horrible story of the death of a man who had attempted on King Louis XV; and we have heard to say to Monseigneur the Marquis that his ancestors had the right of life and death over the surrounding vulgar, and that repression was the only lasting philosophy. So we can already forecast the horrifying atrocities that the revolution is going to bring when the oppressed class take the power, and courts of justice headed by men like Mr Defarge begin to act in order to vent their hatred . I believe that we could call it effect the law of pendulum. Don’t you think so?
By the moment, the court of the garret has pronounced his sentence of death to “the château and all the race”.
Chapter 16
I imagine something… but I do not want to say it.
We know that Mr Darnay and Mr Carton are alike. (Remember the trial)
We know that Mrs Defarge has knitted Darnay’s name, so he has to die because we know that the revolutionaries agree to kill all Evremonde race.
Charles is an Evremonde and Carlton is willing to sacrifice for Lucie or her family.
So……
By the way, I think that Monsieur Defarge has human feelings and regrets Darnay’s situation. But to Madame Defarge all aristocrats must die. She has no compassion for anybody.
We had seen madame Defarge managing the wine shop and beckoning to Mr Degfarge while she knitted behind the counter. At the beginning I thought it strange that a strong man like Mr Defarge was left to manage by her. But never did I think she could have so hatred and so strong resolution that at her side Mr Defarge seems to be a weakness man. I find it disturbing that madame Defarge be in the center of the politic intrigue. I think that if she sometimes had the power, she would not stop until all the aristocrats died in the guillotine. Monsieur Defarge want to fight against the old regime to eliminate injustice, but he wants that the action be not excessive, but madame Defarge has a heart full of hatred and his revenge will not stop before nothing and nobody.
Isidro, I agree with you that Dickens has presented us with the atrocities of the aristocracy, so we can expect and are ready for revenge, it is very sad to think what human beings are capable of doing when there is no control over our actions. Read the new novel of vargas llosa´s and you will see that not so long ago the atrocities were repeated in africa and South America.
Carmen.. well "could be or could not be that is the question", the story can take many turns...
At the beginning of chapter entitled “still knitting” we see how Dickens attributes again human qualities to the chateau. Thus, he gives strength and introduces a certain mystery to the description, and he achieves an aesthetic remarkable effect. Such is the solitude of the château, after the death of the Marquis, that the stone faces can hear the whispering of the trees, and they change with every tragic event showing cruel looks full of anger and pain. It is a beautiful way of saying that so horrifying are the signs of the tragic event that are going to happen that even the stones shudder.
The personification of nature is a poetic resource very used by the poets in general. We have seen today in class a good example in the poetry we have analysed. The daffodils danced with glee and jocund and invited to be gay the poet that all bring inside us.
Carmen I agree with you. There are atrocities everywhere and everytime. We know that human being has survived fighting, therefore the man has reasons to distrust of himself. I have not read the new novel of the last Novel prize yet, but many other novels have reflect very well the cruelty and the injustice suffered recently by many people. For example Calixte Beyala, in “The plantation”, describes the horror of the dictatorship of Zimbawe; Yasmina Khadra in “Les sirenes de Bagdad” or in “Les hirondelles de Kabul” describes with crudity recent sufferings of many people in Bagdad or Kabul.
Nevertheless, sometimes in the midst of the battlefield the love is possible like in the novel of Andrée Chedid: “The message”. And we can be happy of living in Europe where live is pretty comfortable, as a result of the struggle and the effort of our ancestors. So, live the liberal revolutions!!!!!
I'm very sorry.
In my last comment:.."......Life is very comfortable."
Human Beings can be the most beautiful beings but the most horrible as well, and Dickens describes our qualities very weel but all the faults we have, perfectly.
Of course, there are still many atrocities nowadays, but they are committed by people who don´t need to do that for surviving...but only because they want to be superior and the best ones in everything. It is amazing that people who need survive in life are always oppresived, hurt and punished: the poorest and weakest people.
We, humans, would need very little to live but because we are ambitious and selfish , we need more and more and we don´t mind the way to get it.. It does not matter if we hurt or destroy other people, sometimes we are very cruel until the point of acting as criminals.
Cruelty is part of our nature. Animals are cruel too..but because they have to eat, to survive and defend their group, but human beings are cruel , sometimes, for nothing. In the era of this novel, it was the nobility that tortured the people, the poor people.
I agree with all of you, Isidro, Carmen and Reyes. Human beings are capable of doing terrible tings against the neighbour but at the same time are capable of doing the best in order to help others.
Chapter 17
In this chapter we know Dr Manette’s feelings and wishes.
Dr Manette as a father wants to see her daughter fulfilled and happy. Otherwise he could not live.
As a mother I feel the same, I am strongly affected by my children’s happiness.
On the contrary I do not understand Lucie’s feelings. When I felt in love I did not want to live with my parents at all.
On the other hand Dr Manette has a wish very common in human beings.
He wants to live on his daughter’s memory, being remembered in the next generation.
I think it is a deep feeling in human nature.
Perhaps Carton wants Lucie to remember him with tenderness.
The best way to be remembered is doing good thing for others.
Sorry ,,, When I fell in love
I understand Lucie´s feelings perfectly, because we are people of habits and routine. When you are fall in love, your willing to form your own family and live your own life is very strong but on the other hand it is very hard breaking the ties with your parents and relatives... that makes you feel protected and give you security, while in your new feat you have to fight for a new starting, to begin from nothing and build a new future.
It is an opposite feeling...you wish going out from your parent´s house but on the other hand you want to stay. It is very understanding.
Carmen.. in your last comment, there is a good issue to discuss. Do you really think that usually we remember people because their good actions???? or perhaps ..is it more probable to be remembered for our bad actions????
Hardly , are we remembered for our bad things or mistakes than for our best.
Do we remember people better for good or for bad actions?
Reyes, I think that we remember better the actions that leave a strong mark in our mind. Most of the actions of the others have not an special meaning to us and they are forgotten. But sometimes, there are actions that provoke in us strong feeling of sympathy or of repulsion that will be remembered for ever. For example, in the case of Dr Manette, his imprisonment has left such a strong mark in his mind that he never will forget it. And we can say the same of his wife’s love.
Otherwise, we tend to gloss over what others do and to attribute to ourselves more than we deserve. But we never forget a dirty trick because the fight for survive has imprint in our mind the necessity of being very attentive to outer menaces.
So, in my opinion, it is more probable that we are remembered for our bad actions that for our good ones.
Reyes, you have said something very interesting about atrocities and that is that they are commited by people who don´t need to survive, that is they ae in a position of power. You have a point but I would add that the oppressed, one moved to action can be more cruel...continue reading...
I think that Lucie must be torn between the idea of "getting" darnay and "losing" her father. Think that she has been an orphan and thus is in need of roots and something to hold to. Difficult though our relations can be with our parents (mothers specially, girls) we cn always go back to them and find consolation (if you are lucky, one has to admit), but if you are completely lonely in this world!!!
Reyes, I have to say that normally people are remembered by their "bad" and not by their "good"!!! There are examples contrary to this, saints, religious people, in general, but how many more can we mention? We know the Devil becasue he was the Bad Angel, but how many of the good ones do we know of? Evil attracts us more than goodness, aren´t we stupid? But I have to say that the only valuable thing we have in our lives is GOODNESS, in the end that brings peace of mind and happiness (yes, I know, very difficult)
Isidro, you are very right
I am happy for the Tunisian and Egyptian people, because they are beginning an interesting process toward democracy. I think it very important that they have been able to take this step without violence. Specially in the case of Egypt, the events have been very moving, because it seemed that people wouldn’t achieve that Mubarak left the power. In my opinion, it is the beginning of an historic movement of liberation that is going to affect the whole Arab people, and consequently the world in general will improve.
It has been very exciting to assist in direct by television to a real revolution, in which people of all ideology, religion and different social levels have achieved to join to liberate themselves. And it is very important because we have seen this years that the conquest of the democracy has been frequently very traumatic. I think that Dr. J. Mª Peredo Pombo was right when he said that it is very difficult to export the democracy to other countries, or to force the process, because the democracy only can arrive to a country as a expression of the popular will.
I’m sorry.
In my last comment:
We have seen this year........... as aN expression of ….
Isidro I´m very happy, too for the Egyptian people, and the Arab world in general as I think that the "wave" of the Revolution will engulf the rest of the Arab world. However we must be preapared for...the dictatorship, remember that it was only the American revolution that mnaged to outlive its ideals. We´ll see!
I also agree with you, Isidro and Carmen, about the overwhelming victory of the democracy in Egypt. That value should be leading any country´s affairs worldwide. So, I would love it if I could see that any person on earth has had the opportunity of taking part in the election of his goverment, in a free and fair voting.
With respect of extreme violence absence it is clear that it was because of the Egyptian army maintained close to the citizen demands. If the army position had been different it would have affected to the final result? I think so, because in any dictatorship there always are four elements, dictator (fact), army (tool) and fear (consequence). If the second one failed the dictatorship over-throw would be highly possible. In that case, the dictator´s device to get population threatened,the army, would not have worked properly.
On the other hand, it is well-known the good relationship between the former Egyptian tyrant and the USA Administration, related to the muslim terrorism. Henceforth, could this area be used to cement the presence of extremist leaders, due to Egypt strategic location?...
We have seen in chapter 16 Mr Barsad trying to obtain information of madame Defarge. He spoke to her of the poverty of the people, of Gaspard’s execution, and finally of Miss Manette’s marriage with Mr Darnay. But she remained undisturbed showing his coolness and his ability to mask the reality. For example, when Mr Barsad spoke of Gaspard’s execution, she said that “if people use knives for such purposes, they have to pay for it” . What a cheek!!!!!
In my opinion madame Defarge has the necessary qualities to be a very good plotter: cold blood, strong will and character, perseverance, cunning, hatred, wish of revenge and conviction capacity. She seems to be placed in the center of the political intrigue for she is the responsible of the secret register; and she is also in herself a real center of control of communications with her gestures and conventional signs, like the rose on her headdress which has the function of a traffic light.
In my opinion, she is a very disturbing person but at the same time a very interesting character in the novel that doesn’t leave anyone indifferent. Don’t you think so?
I think that Lucie's circumstances are very singular. In our century, the majority of girls don't leave their houses to be married. First of all, we are going to live with our boyfriend (or girlsfriend). That means a lot of thingsfor oneselfs and for the family. In my opinion, the big step is to leave your parent's home.
On the other hand, I think that human being is capable to remember the best and the worst. What I cannot remember are plain people, people that don't take risks, that don't fight and neither win nor lost.
Lucie´s situation is very understandbale because in that era women since they were born had to live under protection, first of all, of parents and after for husbands.
So when they got married it was very difficult to separate from the family and to change the way of life. It was as starting again..everything was new and different.
But, nowadays women have more independence and since their childhood are educated ( in theority) with the same rights and circumstances as men. As Anna says women can go to live with their partners , they don´t need permission to do what they want and to be independent in all stages of life.
It is not marriage the only fate for them but also they can work, live alone and even not to have children if this is their willing....or even to be "mothers" without getting married.
Things have changed....but what has not changed is the "love" for our family and relatives, and the pain and sadness that we feel when we have to separate from them... never will change. Feelings are always the same....for Lucie and for all of us.
Hi classmates.... Another link to practice the "Listening" in English..... Colin Firth (Bafta 2011) He on it one more year:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hshr0OqeCGs
Enjoy it.
In my opinion Miss Manette is not going to have any problem to live after her marriage with his husband in her father’s house. The house is large and the couple will be able to live in the upper rooms which have been unoccupied until now. And it is possible that Mr Manette finally be satisfied with the new situation, after overcoming the inevitable initial trauma that have left him depressed again. But in the case of Mr Darnay the situation can be very different, because it is likely that he get tired of the continuous presence of his wife’s father.
Otherwise, I believe that had Mr Darnay to live with Miss Manette’s
mother the situation would be more difficult for him, because women are in
general more possessive concerning their children. Don’t you think so?
Well..Isidro , I do not think that Miss Manette´s situation was different if her mother were alive. Because I think that "mothers" protect more their sons and "fathers" protect much more their daughters.
I know many cases in that situation. Men are more possessive with daughters and they never like their boyfriends. Daughters are always considered as "little girls", who need to be protected and cared for them.
On the other hand...."mothers" are very jealous of women who appeal to their sons. That is the case of the Oedipus complex....or the famous figure of "mother in law", always referring to the husband´s mother.
So, I guess that in both cases...living with parents is very complicated and sometimes is very damaging to marriage and even it can be the cause to end it.
Reyes, in my opinion Oedipus complex is a theory that explain the psychological evolution of children. And although it is true that, when the conflict implied in this complex is not solved satisfactorily, it can cause problems in adults, I don’t think that this be the case, because none of them have problems of this kind.
Besides, when a child becomes an adult, it takes place the process of identification and the child tries to incorporate the personality characteristics of the same-sex parent. Therefore, daughter are better companions to her mothers than sons, because they have more things in commons and they get on well; and the same thing occurs between fathers and sons.
So, to Mr Darnay had been worst to live with Miss Manette’s mothers, because in general mothers are more possesives.
And Mr. Darnay’s inward. I wonder about his feelings living with his wife and his father in law… Will not he be worried about Dr. Manette’s mental malady, be afraid of his wife being devoted of her father’s care, or be jealous with the strong bond between his wife and his father in law?
In my opinion the key of this foreseeable difficult coexistence could be not a question of physical space, they could live upstairs or downstairs, the house is large enough, but a matter of mental space. Not in vain Dr. Manette was recalled to live by Lucie in the very sense of the words.
Well it seems that we all agree, at least, that the better thing to a young couple recently married is to live independent. The question about if it is better to live with the wife’s father or mother, or with the husband’s father or mother, is a complex question, because there are many factors implied and different points of view. So, in my opinion, every case requires a different answer.
But the best of all is that this question has been a good pretext to write in English. Don’t you think so?
Maria Luisa A, I agree with you. The most important thing is the psychological effect of the father’s presence in the couple, but the physical space is also important.
Do you imagine a young couple living with one of the fathers or mothers in a flat of 60 m? Do you imagine them watching television every day seating in the same sofa?
Do you imaging Mr Darnay preparing his classes hearing every minute Mr Manette’s sighs?
I agree with Reyes in the undisputed statement that fathers, sometimes, consider their daughters like highly fragile human beings.
I also back Isidro´s opinion related to, nowdays, it has something to do with the unsolved complex and they both, men and women, to get their personality fulfilled, need being close to similar sex progenitor. It is only a question of adapting to the natural environoment and reproducing the role of our peers. Had it been easier for a man to get used to emulating his mother´s behaviour patterns? ...
Henceforth, I have to recognise my uppermost agreement with Maria Luisa´s words considering the theme from an internal affair. Even so, I would like to treat Mr. Darnay and Miss Lucie in a little deeper point of view, taking into account current events.
Therefore, I think it is similar to a couple of teenagers, who usually go out, spend unnumbered hours, and at the end of the day they both come back theirs parent´s houses. Years go on, they get near twenties, and then finish at the University...If they were lucky they would obtain a middle-sized job, earning some euros to face minor bills, sharing time with friends having dinner out, going out to drink a pint...but they are suppossed, at the heavy ningt, to reach their parents nest. They will plan theirs unforgettable wedding and then they will become a just married couple in two o three years...and a just split one in only three months.
What was the problem in those husband and wife? In my opinion it was a misunderstanding of two pivotal principle,"comprehension and cooperation". The first one means that any member of the new family should know the backgrounds and handicaps in his or her partner, even coming from theirs own families, and accept them fairly.
About cooperation, I think it is easier to learn it by heart than internalize it and practice it every day. Then, as soon as we realized that routinous domestic duties will never be done by lovely parents we would have passed the first stage to understand the meaning of this principle. The second step, and more important indeed, is thinking in who would be the better candidate for those tasks...
If we compared it with the Soho just married couple it would also make sense under the two mentioned principle. So, Mr. Darnay is aware
about the unsteady and tight link between Lucie and her father, and he absolutely assume it. On the other hand, I dare say that they both would enjoy a lot sharing different activities, even housing ones. However, to reach a proper and well-balanced conclusion we ought to take in mind Miss´s Pross role and the epoch in which they were living, and theirs customs.
In short, they could spend thirty o forty years loving each other unless that it appeard any unexpected obstacle. Could it be the unveiled secret between Mr. Darnay and Dr. Manette, at the wedding day?....
Manolo you have outdone!!!!.......Such a long comment!!!!!!!Well it is fantastic because, finally, we have found a common issue to discuss; I think this subject is still alive nowadays.
Miss.Manette´s situation is equal as the many young people sitation´s today , as Manolo says.......Economical situation is not very good so many of them , after finishing their studies, and if they do not find a job, they must keep living with their parents.
If they want to live with their couples , the only option they have is to live in the parents´house....and in many cases that is not a good idea because is the cause of many problems between them.
So after many years..... these problems are the same. Living in a small flat, with little bit money, poor job etc....... That´s Mr. Darnay and Miss Manette´s situation.... but the question that Isidro proposes is very interesting.... Which is better??? To live with Mum or Dad????
I have different opinion about it, because as I wrote obove...mothers and fathers are very different at the time of protecting their childs.
But , in short, everybody need their place and their independence. We are people of habits and routines and each one has it own. Sometimes is very difficult to respect it and to adapt.
Yes you are right (Reyes, Manolo,...). This matter remains a problem today, and it can be analysed of very different points of view. In my opinion, what is good in some cases could not be good in others. And one thing is to analyse the problem in abstract, and a very different thing is to analyse the concrete situation of every couple. In abstract, I think that all of us agree that the better thing to a young couple would be that they lived alone. But sometimes the necessity and the moral obligation prevail.
It is true that many young couples have to live with both or with one of the fathers or the mothers for economic reasons. In this case, it is not necessarily a negative factor for the stability of the couple. For example, when they have children and they both work, the presence of one of the grandparents can be an important aid for them.
Nevertheless, I think that, in this issue, what is good from one point of view, may be bad from another. For example, the situation would be very different depending on the father/mother’s personality, because it is not the same that he/she be an interfering person or not. And the situation would be also very different depending on the personality of the members of the couple.
What an interesting discussion!! Isidro, Reyes, Manolo, I agree with all of you! I thing that it could be an opportunity to live with other generations. It could be a change to learn more about civil war, politic context or even cooking! But at the same time, I consider that it shouldn't be easy for a young couple start living in common with your parents or your-in-laws...
Undoubtedly, Dr Manette is a generous man. He feels a strong aversion to his daugther’s marriage to Mr Darnay because of something that occurred in the past, whose recall is very painful to him.
Dr Manette confessed to Miss Manette on the eve of her wedding, that there was a time in his imprisonment, when “his desire for vengeance was unbearable”. And we know that Dr Manette didn’t want to know Mr Darnay’s real name. In my opinion, he didn’t want to confirm his presentiment until a moment immediate before the wedding, because he feared that his nerves could betray him. So, he puts his daughter’s happiness before his own feeling.
Dr Manette’s generosity contrasts with Miss Woodhouse’s selfishness, who only consented to his daughter’s wedding when he realized that Mr Knightley’s presence in his house would be a guarantee of security for him, who was very uneasy after the robberies that had taken place in the neighbourhood.
I agree with you, Isidro, about Dr. Manette’s generosity.
But not only generosity is one of the best Dr. Manette’s qualities.
He being maltreated during his stay at prison , it is really surprising the fact of his trust in a man who, at the end, will be destined to snatch part of his daughter´s love. Don’ t men, in a great number, think about their daughters’s bridegrooms as kidnappers of their dearest little girls?
Dr. Manette´s behaviour is really laudable, for he wants to observe the man’s conduct, without knowing his past, his real name, his secret… That man, tied to a shoemaker’s bench at length, accepts an enormous risk, betting on his daughter´s happiness.
Well, I think living with your partner and your parents or your in laws is a very difficult situation. It could be better or worse depending on the character of father or mother. The point is if the parents understand the new situation and don't try to crontol everything as they did when you were only their child.
Talking about last chapters, in my opinion we have discovered two great characters on the novel. The first one, Madame Defarge. Before knitting's chapters we didn't know very much about her, after, we realize how important she is and she is going to be.
The another character is Mr. Lorry, I really like the way he acts whit Mr. Manette crisis and it's remarkable how he controls everything and notices every single detail.But I have to recognize my favourite character is Mr. Carton.
Poor Dr Manette! He had postponed the time to know Mr Darnay’s real name until the last moment before the wedding, when they were ready to go to church and he could not go backward.
He didn’t do it by disinterest or irresponsibility, but because he knew that he could go down and he didn’t want to put his own feeling before his daughter’s happiness.
But at the end he got very affected, though only the shrewd glance of Mr Lorry discovered the old “air of avoidance” and the dread in his face like “a cold wind” that anticipated his final collapse.
I apreciate very much Mr Manette’s sacrifice and generosity. Don’t you?
Dickens’s novel seems to be a prove of women’s power and ruse, and of their ability to transform men into puppets. Two women, Miss Manette in London and madame Defarge in Paris achieve to master all men around them. Do you really think that men are, in general, weaker than women? Do you think that women always control men though it seems to be the opposite?
I enjoyed very much the last conversation about marriage in the classroom. It seemed that there was a general agreement about the great menace that women are to men in relation to marriage. Do you think that since Eve gave the apple to Adan, women has always brought the ruin to men? Do you really think that men are currently victims of women?
It is not a contradiction with the vindication and the fight of women against their marginalization?
It is possible that one thing be what occurs in the family and a different thing be what occurs in society?
Isidro you´re right, because it is very different the women´s situation in family and in society.
I am from a place of Spain where women are very important. Galicia is a matriarchy; family, work, house, business....everything is controlled and run by women, and although are men who appear to be the effort, really ,the foundation of Galician families is settled in women.
They are always working in fields, markets... they are strong and fearless women , very capable of facing adversity and although ... were men who migrated, it was woman who kept the family´s unity, traditions, faith etc.........but they are always in the shadows, silent, going undetected...patients...as Mrs. Defarge does in the novel, she is in the back, watching and controlling everything around.
She is ready for the moment to act, meanwhile she watches and waits.
A very interesting discussion and we seem to to be very interested in the affair of relationships between women and parents and husbands. I think that it is difficult to detach oneself of family once you have to. I know that for some this is done easily and for others it is never done, thus it causes many problems in one´s new life wiith one´s new family.
Miss Pross remains as comic as ever.
Don’t you think it funny when she said to Mr Lorry the following words?
”I am not crying; you are........Such a present of plate as you have made is enough to bring tears into anybody’s eyes. There is not a single fork or a spoon in the collection that I didn’t cry over, last night after the box came, till I couldn’t see it.”
In my opinion, Miss Pross and Mr Lorry are very different but they have something in common: their loyalty and their efficiency in their respective jobs.
I think that Miss Pross is treasure in rough; she is a humble woman but she feels a great affection to Miss Manette and she is willing to sacrifice for her.
Please, Isidro, I do not understand the meaning when you say that “women are a great menace for men in relation to marriage”, perhaps for not being at your discussion at class (I miss so much such discussions…) because I am a Carmen´s former student and at this point I have to apologize for invading your blog without introducing myself…
I agree with other former mates when they tell you marvellous things about Carmen, so please, believe me when I repeat that all of you are very lucky with so excellent a teacher. You following her wise advices it will be very useful in your future and not only for your professional life.
Pray not take in count some mistakes in my rusty English for I only try to brush up on my writing sharing with you, let me call you mates, the reading of this novel.
In my opinion, Reyes has described, accurately, the matriarchy at Galicia that developed strong and decided women going ahead with their families, their jobs, their life, surrounding by difficult and extreme conditions, but…What about African women from far tribes? It is common to bring to our minds the image of fibrous, skinny women with enormous jugs on their heads, or grinding grain, always surrounded by their children meanwhile men are resting sheltering from the sun…
It was women that were called “the weak sex”: Are you sure of that? or, perhaps, was Eve punished stronger than Adam and condemned to work harder and harder?
I read your interesting comments about relationships and I think that for a new couple it is better to live alone than to live with their families. The new couple needs intimacy in order to mature and increase their love, even if they have to sacrifice and to have not a lot of money.
Chapter 18
This chapter explores Dr Manette’s mind. Charles reveals his secret to Dr Manette – he is an Evremonde. What does it mean to Dr Manette? Perhaps the Evremonds played a role in Manette’s imprisonment.
In any case, that discovery pushes Dr Manette into his old trauma.
Our mind is very complex and a trauma is very difficult to overcome. It is very easy to fall once and again on the same feelings provoked by the trauma.
For instance- if your heart is strongly touched by a painful situation you can feel the same pain when something reminds you the first painful situation.
Traumas are too habitual in our world and it is necessary to be very strong and sometimes to be helped by medical assistance.
Mª LuisaA, I was half seriously and half joking. I only wanted to provoke controversy introducing a problematic matter. It is impossible to me to reproduce all the discussion because it was very complex, but one of the point more provocative was the idea that it is better to men not to marry, because in case of divorce, they would have to pay it dearly: they would have to pay a monthly amount of money, they would lost the house, the children,...and finally they should look for an apartment and try to survive if they still had money.
So, as you see, it is a very problematic topic, because there are many factors involved and different points of view; and there is not only money involved, but as well affections.
Do you really think that always men are the loser?
Mr Lorry shows us his ability to treat Mr Manette in chapter 19. I think that it is very subtle and polite the way of talking to him about his problem, after Mr Manette having overcome his shock.
In my opinion, It was necessary to talk about the matter, avoiding to offend Mr Manette and trying to achieve that he were at ease. Mr Manette knew that they were talking about himself but Mr Lorry’s way of steering the conversation achieved to avoid that Mr Manette became strained.
The conversation was necessary because it was good to Mr Manette to normalize the situation facing the reality. Had Mr Lorry avoided the matter, Mr Manette wouldn’t tried it, and a rest of bad conscience would left in his mind. But if the conversation had not been well steered it might have had negative effects. So, in my view, Mr Lorry in this occasion has acted as a real psychologist.
I mostly agree with you Isidro in your last comment. Then, I think that the main reason for Mr. Lorry´s delicacy is because he is always in contact with Dr. Manette, and Julie. So, Mr´s Lorry´s conducts over the years have been honest enough to be considered as a discreet and worthy man by Manette´s. Therefore, he was in the proper stage to focus on the root of the desease, Mr. Manette´s remenbrances about his captive days. In that case, had it been efficient and profitable for Mr. Manette neither to tear up the bench and nor to hide the tools? I think not.
On the contrary, it is also true that in many cases, depending on the subaject, you have to cope with an unbalanced situation in a more energetic and sharply way. For example, in job market.
Thanks for your kind explanation, Isidro.
I agree with you, Isidro and Manolo, about Mr. Lorry’s great delicacy to Dr. Manette. In all likelihood, he with Miss Pross seem his guardian angels supporting him and looking for the best way to restore him before Lucie arriving at home.
In my opinion, Manette´s fears are deep enough to frighten away only with the destruction of an object, but perhaps the absence of that bench can contribute to alleviate his anguish.
In my opinion, Mr Lorry behaviour concerning Dr Manette was very appropriate in all respect. I believe it necessary the fact of having taken the decision of getting rid of the bench and the tools, because these things were the only material link with the illness, and its destruction means to close the door of a new relapse.
Otherwise, Dr Manette himself agreed to Mr Lorry when he said, talking of the forge, that he would recommend his friend “to sacrifice it”.
Nevertheless, to take this decision was not easy to Dr Manette, therefore Mr Lorry, seeing Dr Manette’s doubts decided to anticipate the answer. And only after Mr Lorry having declared his conviction, and having invoked “his daughter sake”, Dr Manette said: “In her name, then, let it be done; I sanction it. But, I would not take it away while he was present”.
So Mr Lorry achieved that Mr Manette accepted to do the necessary sacrifice of braking to the past. And using Manolo’s words, in that moment, Dr Manette coped with an unbalanced situation in a more energetic way.
Sorry because this isn´t about the novel but which is the next composition we have to do, the one in page 93 or the one in page 94??
thank you very much!
I think that the burning of the body ( the bench) and the buried of the tools, shoes and leather was the necessary ritual to brake with to the past. This was a painful step but it was also the condition to guarantee a healthy life.
Dr Manette felt affection for these things that were his only relief in difficult times, but it was necessary to do in this case the same thing we do when a dear relative dies; that is, to say good by to the death and to intend to face the future the better we can.
If we did not do this it would occurs what is happening to one of my friends who, after her husband’s death, kept the funerary urn at home; and now she talks every day to her husband’s ashes. She is becoming more and more mournful and sad, and she doesn’t want to get rid of the ashes despite the advices of her relatives and friends.
In my opinion, the more time she passes with the ashes at home the more difficult it will be to her to get rid of them, and finally her life will be overshadowed forever by the gloomy presence of her dead husband.
I'm sorry.
In my last comment
....to brake with the past..."
Chapter 20
This is a beautiful chapter to reflect about forgiveness, repentance and compassion.
Carlton wants to be forgiven for his bad behaviour and wishes to be welcome as a friend in the new Lucie’s family.
Charles is polite but he does not understand how deep Carlton’s feeling is.
The perfect compliment for a person who wants to be forgiven is a person with compassion.
Lucie has sympathy and compassion for Carton’s soul so she implores to her husband to have faith in Carlton as she has. She believes that Carlton has a wounded heart; nevertheless he is capable of tremendous good.
(This relationship has Christian virtues - God has pity and compassion for his sons and forgives our trespasses)
Carmen, after reading the last paragraph of the chapter we discussed today at the classroom, I discovered that the text said something different that I had understood. I thought that the words that the forlorn wandered might have cried to the night were the words he would not have parted from his lips for the first time, instead of the words of the last line separated of the paragraph.
And if it is normal that two person have different opinion about a character of a novel, in this case, I was mistaken because my opinion was supported in a misunderstanding. So I apologize because I have insisted in my mistake. As well, I am very sorry because you spent much extra time. Thank you very much.
In my opinion, the chapter entitled “The Plea”, in spite of being very short, it is very interesting because it shows Mr Carton’s naked personality once more. This chapter is necessarily connected with the chapter entitled “Congraturlatory”.
We know since the day of the trial that he was in love with Miss Manette. That day she wished to be Mr Darnay, because had he been him, he would have received Miss Manette’s lovely look and her commiseration. Therefore he said to himself thinking of Mr Darnay: “Come on, have it out in plain words! You hate the fellow.”
Mr Carton would have done his life to be Mr Darnay to receive the sweet look of those blue eyes, that he loved so much. So, we have here the eternal problem:
“To be, or not to be, that is the question:
Whether’ tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles.”
This same day after having been with Mr Stryver working and drinking all night he went home very sad fancying how wonderful could have been his life, but finally the reality struck him harshly and “he threw himself down in the clothes on a neglected bed, and its pillow was wet with wasted tears.”
I understand his feeling because I think that it can be very annoying to a frustrated person as Mr Carton, to find a person physically identical to him but joining all positive qualities that he lacks. But I don’t understand his apparent renewed interest in punishing himself. Carton seems a masochist who enjoys with his own suffering and showing as a victim before the others. Carton first interest is to obtain the affect of the others, showing himself as a frustrated man that deserves to be pitied, and it looks as if he was announcing his self destruction.
But will Mr Carton have more courage than Hamlet, or will be paralyzed by the dread of the dreams of the sleep of death? That’s the question.
Reyes, I´ve liked your parallel between Galician women and Madame Defarge very much. Yes womwn seem to be the base of everything, don´t they? They give birth, care and bury..what more can one do?
Concerning the comments dealing with "the burning of the body" and the disappearance of the those tools to which the Doctor turned whenever he felt in danger, I think that Lorry treats the subject with delicacy and efficiency; the Doc. understands that he has to break with the past, in the same way as marcus in "hereafter". The pain that humans suffer has to end at one point or another, but this period is not the same for everyone, it can, at times last for too long. However there is a time when this period of convalescense ends and this is when the scar is healed. I think the Doctor perceives that after Lucie´s wedding he has forgiven whoever put him in prison, and this is symbolically achieved with the destruction of the tools.
Perhaps Mr Darnay should have been more prudent, and not to reveal his opinion about Mr Carton. But I understand his surprise with Mr Carton’s extravagant petition of being regarded as an useless and un-ornamental piece of furniture. And Mr Darnay did his commentary without any acrimony. What would have been a great surprise to me is that Mr Darnay had considered normal Mr Carton attitude.
In my view, a person as Mr Carton would be a disaster in the real life,not only to himself but to his family and close friends. Nevertheless, as a character of fiction, he is the most complex and interesting character of the novel.
He shows, in the higher degree, the contradictions that all human being have. He suffers very much because his clear intelligence can not do anything to pacify his emotional innermost fire. And he has a clear self destructive tendency that becomes him more and more pessimistic, distressed and unpredictable.
In brief, he is a character capable of provoke deep emotions and the only one that can surprise us.
Isidro, don´t worry at all about the extra time, I could stay and it is never a problem for me to devote my time to my students when I can...but it does worry me that you did not listen!!!! i knew that you had not understood it properly but you were just...blocked!! Is stubborn a word familiar to you??? That´s why you understood other teachers really well....
However, it was gret fun...I must conclude that I like... arguments!!! horrible, don´t you think?
Carmen, my first problem with the English languish is, as you know, that my level of listening and speaking is very low. So, in spite of putting all my attention in your explanation sometimes I don’t understand you well. And other times that I believed to have understood you, I discovered afterward that I had not understood you. Therefore I participated very little in class discussions in the first half of the course. Sometimes I would have liked to have participated more, but it was very frustrating to me to know that I could not express what I thought.
Otherwise, although you often says that it was not necessary to be an specialist in the topic to participate, because the very important thing is to speak English; at the end, when the mastery of the languish is poor, the experience of participating is like walking through a land of shifting sands. Therefore I have followed the easier way: to participate in the blog, although I know that my process of learning is opposite of the common sense.
As you see, I repeat similar things that I have said in other occasions, as an exercise of writing. And I will continue writing because it is a very good complement of the learning and because I like it very much. But I recognize that what I have to do is to overcome the fear of walking through uncertain land and to face the troubles participating in the conversations.
I thank you very much your kindness.
Manolo, you are quite a philosopher!!! I have reread your post from the 16th February and liked it a lot, you write wel and your ideas are clear..your wife is a lucky lady...
Isidro your post from 20th Feb contins many interesting questions.difficult to answer..Are women a menace to men? Undoubtedly!!! Men are happily warring, conquering, fighting, playing, not thinking too much about issues of any kind and suddenly a woman, beautiful of course, invades their world, and destroys their happiness. From this moment onwards, there are all sorts of new problems in their lives, quarrels, children, etc. I definetely think we are a problem for them.
Maria Luisa, thanks for your kind and generous words concerning my person. I very much appreciate them.
I do see that in Africa as well as in Galicia women are the base of society and men are the drones (zángano-abeja)in society, and definetely in some societies. I think that the woman is the base of the family and this is why the law is protecting her more and more (actually now we are over-protected to the extent that divorce for a man is the absolute ruin of his life). What would the role of Man be in this, merely that of the drone, as a stud (semental), which life, I suspect, none of tem would object to...
Carton is a little contradictory and an extravagant fellow. As a literary character he is very interesting, but a person like him in real life would be a disaster.
First of all he shows to Mr Darnay his wish of being friends, and he implores him to be permitted to visit them at home, but immediately it seems that he wants to impose the conditions of the friendship. Otherwise, I am very surprising by Mr Carton’s interest in humiliating himself highlighting his defaults and trying to eliminate all positive quality concerning to him.
In my opinion, Mr Carton conversation to Mr Darnay shows his ill conscience. Mr Carton, Mr Lorry and Mr Darnay have been frequently in the Manette’s home and all of them are friends. So, their friendship should not be affected by Mr Darnay and Miss Manette’s marriage, but Mr Carton prejudice introduces a feeling of culpability in his mind. Anyway, an adult person normally knows when a friendship cools or when he is not welcome, and that friendship is something that rises spontaneously.
In my opinion, had Mr Carton overcome his frustration for the unrequited love, he would not have had ill conscience and he would not have felt the necessity of talking to Mr Darnay about this matter. But the problem is that he still bleeds for the wound of his love. And in this conditions, only a masochist like him would accept to punishing himself attending as a furniture decoration to the couple’s happiness.
In the first part of chapter entitled “Echoing Footsteps”, Dickens’s prose achieves poetical traits making us to feel how the time leaves his mark, affecting slowly but inexorably the existence of Lucie and the people bounded to her with the golden thread that links their fate.
I have liked very much the way as Dickens shows us the changing moods reflected in the echoes of the footsteps. The initial happiness and quiet bliss of the young wife, that the bad omen of the echoes sometimes stained slightly with anxiety, sometimes with horrible fear that saddened her. That is, Dickens shows beautifully here the flutter of the life itself with her inherent fleetingness: happiness, doubts, hops, fears, and the illness and the dismal death always threatening.
Chapter 21 is very interesting and very determinating for the plot of this novel. How Dickens mixes and links one subject with another...until coming to the main point: the revolution
Revolution has began and people are in the streets fighting for their rights, opposing to those who are forcing them to live in poverty, misery, hungry...under oppression and dictatorship.
People who say "no" and are ready to reveal........What is happening in this chapter is the same thing that is happening , today, in many Arab countries. It is amazing that after so many years , the fight remains the same. Doesn´t it????
Today, we still having " the Marquis", "Madame and Monseuir Defarge".....etc...the same characters are present in our society.
In the first part of chapter entitled “Echoing Footsteps”, Dickens’s prose achieves poetical traits making us to feel how the time leaves his mark, affecting slowly but inexorably the existence of Lucie and the people bounded to her with the golden thread that links their fate.
I have liked very much the way as Dickens shows us the changing moods reflected in the echoes of the footsteps. The initial happiness and quiet bliss of the young wife, that the bad omen of the echoes sometimes stained slightly with anxiety, sometimes with horrible fear that saddened her. That is, Dickens shows beautifully here the flutter of the life itself with her inherent fleetingness: happiness, doubts, hops, fears, and the illness and the dismal death always threatening.
First of all , I beg your pardon because I know this is not the place for these sort of things, but I would like to share with you this video. C. Firth is my "weakness" , sorry......I can´t help it; So if you are interesting in listening to him.......here you have the link:
http://www.okmagazine.com/2011/03/watch-colin-firth-dress-up-his-oscar-in-ellen-degeneres-underwear/?mediaKey=e35f5475-3e47-4425-b258-50596cc6d66b&isShareURL=true
Another opportunity to listen to a "good" english.
Thank folks.
Mr Stryver is a boastful man and his character is the opposite of Mr Carton’s. He thinks he is better than the others and he underestimates them because they are not as rich as he is.
The way of offering his wife’s sons as pupils to Mr Darnay was clearly offensive, and when Mr Darnay rejected politely his proposal, Mr Stryver’s reaction was of indignation and contempt, because he could not endure the “pride of the beggars”.
Mr Stryver goes through life thinking that he is the center of the universe, he believes that the others have to turn around him and that they have to accept his decisions without putting any objection. And when things doesn’t work well to him, or when people doesn’t accept his proposals he charges against them without showing any regard.
Thus, when Mr Lorry told him that Miss Manette would not accept his proposal of marriage he said that he was sorry for it on Mr Lorry’s account and as well on Mr Manette’s account, what amazed very much Mr Lorry.
And he says now that Mrs Darnay once had intended to catch him. What a cheek!!!
Hello, This is the official web of the "The Royal Wedding of prince william and kate middleton. http://www.officialroyalwedding2011.org. You can enter and see a lot of information in English.
I know this is not very classic, but for me this is a way of gossiping in a good english and I want to share it with all of you.
Carmen, as you are the Best, I think you will forgive me.
Emilia 5º C
Hello, This is the official web of the "The Royal Wedding of prince william and kate middleton. http://www.officialroyalwedding2011.org. You can enter and see a lot of information in English.
I know this is not very classic, but for me this is a way of gossiping in a good english and I want to share it with all of you.
Carmen, as you are the Best, I think you will forgive me.
Emilia 5º C
At last! the gaunt and hungry scarecrows of the region awakes up and rises more and more overflowing in a sea of shrieks and thunder with raging waves, increasingly higher of thirst for revenge. And Mr Defarge was in the center of the roaring uprising dragging thousands of Jacques towards The Bastille.
The blood of the tyrany began to stain Saint Antoine’s streets, and men were hoisting up instead of lamps to illuminate the revolution. And Mrs Defarge followed by group of women all of them full of desire for revenge compete with men in ferocity and hatred, and she was the one that showed greatest cruelty when, after the governor of the Bastille having been stabbed to death, she hewed off his head with her knife.
Reyes, I agree with you, we see today in television the same fight in the Arab countries. We can recognize Monsieur and Madame Defarge and thousands of Jacques in Libya fighting now for their freedom.
Hello everybody. Here I am to write my weekly comment about the book we are reading.
Chapter 21
The taking of the Bastille was one of the major early events of the French Revolution.
Its anniversary is still celebrated as the French Independence day.
Dickens depicts the events with tremendous realism – the dirty angry revolutionaries armed with guns, knives and with any weapon they can get with their hands.
It was more important “vengeance” than Enlightenment ideals for a lot of revolutionary people.
This chapter contrasts the calm in Soho, Lucie’s home, with the terrible turbulence in Saint Antoine. This violence is very well depicted using a metaphor, describing the mob as “whirlpool of boiling waters”.
When people are furious become a mob without mercy.
Lucie represents the beauty and mercy; on the contrary Madame Defarge represents a woman on the opposite side, being capable of slices off a head without compassion.
Chapter 22
Madame Defarge and the other woman, “the vengeance”, represent how angry and violent people are in response to years of tyranny and oppression.
Dickens depicts the process of ordinary people, people who eat and play with their kids, being transformed in brutal mob.
He stresses the change that occurs in women. It takes our attention because usually the women are supposed to have more compassion and tenderness tan men.
But wounded hearts, freed of fear, become like animals, it does not matter men or women.
(Wounded hearts are very well depicted as well in the film we saw: “a streetcar name desire”)
Isidro, I can´t but disagree with you where Carton is concerned. He has to do that visit and he has to say sorry to be able to retain the right of visiting in Mr.Danrnay´s house, because that is Mr.Darnay´s house!!! I think there is no bleeding due to any scar, at all,but that he honestly says sorry because he wants to be in good terms with Darnay, and he knows that rude he was in their conversation after the trail.
Reyes, thank you for sharing the video with us..I´ve watched it, too, I have the same weakness for Fith, he is amazing...and so handsome!!! With the curls, I don´t know what it is but the English love curls..
A very good comparison with the scarecrows and the current ones fighting in the Arab countries for their freedom. Freedom is a complicated thing, it is a dangerous thing, too but if we don´t have it what is there left for us?
Emilia, I sincerely thank you for your opinion of me... I don´t know if I am the best, as you say, but I´m certainly a person who undertands, so of course, I see that the wedding appeals to you and to most people...more than the novel, thus I thank you for the link. It is nice and certainly entertaining to read about the wedding. I wonder how happy Catherine Middleton is, I would certainly love to be in her shoes even if it was for a mere week...how exciting, the next Queen of England....
Carmen I´ve liked your "wounded hearts", it is very true that once our hearts are wounded, the human being reacts with violence. If it doesn´t we are not human, we are saints. If in the middle of all the pain there is someone who sympathizes with us that violence can be quenched, but not otherwise. Blanche Dubois was a loser, a woman incapable of leading a conventional life. And when we meet her, old and faded she wants to ruin her sister, who had managed to move on, though the place was not very nice, indeed...
We have published a new film to be watched, you can do so, or we can arrange to go together.
I´m currently at Santander, and have had an awful week-end, first of all I was caught in the blozzard on my way out, I was three hours caught in the jam and snow, you CANNOT IMAGINE the chaos and the total inability to do anything!!! the frustration!!! Then I have had a kind of "bug", so I´ve spent Saturday lying down with a temeprature and no food!!! All in all a fantastic week-end, let´s see if I can correct the essays today!!
Saint Antoine’s people had accumulated much hatred. As we Know, young people were early old and they were hungry; men with haggard and cadaverous faces were angry, and all people (men, women, and children) were a sea of grim and stinking rags and nightcaps, a crowd of gaunt scarecrows condemned to live without hope. And they had been abused many times by aristocrats that had the right to dispose whimsically of common people’s life. The common people had been victims of violence and contempt and they had suppressed all their frustration, but now all barrier had been broken and the reactions of people are unstoppable.
It is true that the reactions of people is wild and savage and they can’t be justified in any way, but if we take into account the circumstances we must recognize that this savage reaction is the consequence of all violence suffered previously by them.
After having known the “human achievement” of justice, cutting off hands, tearing out tongues with pincers, burning people alive. And after having known that people were stimulates to enjoy of this spectacle, and that they paid for looking at this, we can not be surprised that they apply the same method to their oppressors, and that they enjoy with relish taking revenge, because violence always generates violence.
Violence always generates violence, therefore the governments and the justice systems would be ruled by rationality and not by oppression and cruelty. But the human history is a succession of battles in which the winner set the rules to the others and impose their interests. Thus, in French Revolution the pendulum of history follows its course applying the universal physical law of action-reaction and the Defarges and all the Jacques were swept away by forces they could not control because they came from the accumulated aggressiveness in the collective subconscious, after many centuries of repression.
And today history repeat itself in Libya, where there is a war in which people has rebelled against the tyranny of Qaddafi and many people are dying. And, although the rebels have today the support of the International Community, if Qaddafi win the war the leaders of the revolution would be condemned to death and they would die as traitors. And, in this case, the International Community would make an statement of condemnation, but in practice all States would begin to make business with the dictator as in the past.
So, Nation Union Organization’s policy defends in theory human rights, but in practice economic interests always impose, and hypocrisy also regulates States’ relations. And the principle eventually imposed, as ever, is: “Whatever is, is right”.
I think it is very disappointing. Don’t you?
I totally agree with you, Isidro. First of all we are mostly interested in money ...what a pity when the hour comes of departure we will regret ahving taken so much time over such futility. And secondly institutions are important, but are always placed in the position of supporting the winner the strong never the weak. Oppressors of any kind are hateful, don´t you think? Even...teachers
The first part of chapter twenty first reminds me an oasis where Manette’s family and friends enjoyed their company inside the solitude, separated from the rest of the world by the wall, a good metaphor, but this idyllic place is menaced by an indefinite terrifying, and premonitory fear represented by Lucie’s feet echoes. Dickens, with great mastery, has saved us the chronicle of Lucie´s first years of marriage and with a few brushstrokes, which tell us her most important events, gives us a general view of her happy and quite life, but maybe this dense calm should be the prelude of an unforeseen shaking in her life.
The second part of chapter twenty first and chapter twenty second, taken as a whole, with the enormous profusion of adjectives, verbs of action and the repetition of grammatical structures, show us the vertiginous rhythm in the development of the first stages of the French Revolution, almost I can hear the dramatic and hypnotic patter of the drums that wrapped people in madness and cruelty.
Dickens’ descriptions of Madame Defarge and the other woman called The Vengeance is as if we should observe the cruel and distorted face of the Marseillese at one of the sculptures of The Arch of Triumph and as for the ragged, whirling and thirsty of blood mob... it brings us sounds of the bloody lyrics of France’s Hymn.
The world of Monseigneur is collapsing and all its signs and principles are falling down before the emergence of the new epoch; and the stone faces of the château showed as if they were in torment struggling uselessly against the purifier flames.
French Revolution was the traumatic but necessary creator process of a new world which emerge over the ruins of the previous one. The new social structure will be based on new principles and requires the removal of all unnecessary elements of the previous structure. So, at first a great social upheaval occurs, but this is the condition for a new order can emerge. Let us recall that it is what occurs in all real creative process, including the story of the creation of the world by God, in which the chaos was at the beginning.
In the same way as when the strength produced by the pressure of water retained in a reservoir exceeds a certain limit, the dam breaks and the great mass flows with a savage force destroying everything in its path, until the water finally runs quietly, after having spent all accumulated energy, people were until now unable of lifting their face or complaining against the oppression, but their aggressiveness suddenly is liberated and a violent crowd is dragged by an unstoppable destructive current that only will stop when all the resentment and hatred accumulated for so long have been eliminated.
Isidro, I have liked very much your previous comment. Perhaps your description of the beginning of The French Revolution could be a summary of the actual Libyan conflict. Only we need to change names but the scenery could be the same one.
well done both of you!! Very good comments
Chapter 24
I think that Charles is an idealistic person. He is attracted by the idea of justice and he thought that he is capable to influence revolutionary people to reflect and not to be bloodthirsty.
In reality he is going to his death.
Chapter 1
Dickens shows us that the Revolution had lost her ideals adding the word DEATH at the end of the revolutionary slogan: “the new republic of Liberty, Equality, Fraternity and Death.
The same transformation we can see in Defarge’s attitude. Previously he helped Dr Manette but now he jails Charles and he does not help him.
The novel is wonderful, not only in descriptions but in structure. We can notice parallel scenes with similar or different meanings. For instance we can connect the imprisonment of Dr Manette who was isolated with this one of Charles who is locked “in secret”.
Is he going to be recall to life, like Dr Manette was?????????
Thanks Carmen for your encouraging post, and tanks Carmen Segura for being my guide during the reading... God!!! I have to read three chapters by Sunday...
Mistake: "Thanks" instead of "tanks".
Sorry.
Mª Luisa I liked very much your comment in which you did an allusion to the French’s hymn. In my opinion your reference is very appropriate because the lyrics of the hymn is very aggressive and reflect very well the revolutionary atmosphere talking of fight, bloodshed and vengeance.
Mr Darnay is very naive thinking that he can do anything to liberate Monsieur Gabelle. In my opinion, if he had been in France he would have suffered the same fate that his château and he would be dead now. So, I imagine the drum sound shaking the people and the choleric crowd’s relish leading Mr Darnay to death and hanging him to illuminate the revolution.
In my opinion, he should have revealed his identity to Mr Lorry and ask him to contact with somebody of his confidence in order to organize his arrival and ensure the success of his action.
Carmen, you can understand the novel to the extent that you appreciate it to the full.
Isidro I agree with you in that Darnay should have revealed his identity to Lorry... but he doesn´t, I wonder why? Any suggestions?
Carmen it is possible that he doesn’t want to reveal his identity because he has promised Dr Manette not to reveal it. But before such an exceptional situation he should have talked to Dr Manette to ask his consent to reveal the truth to Mr Lorry, for he tried to find out if he could have any support in France to achieve his target.The only reason for not acting like this could be to try to avoid Dr Manette’s relapse in his illness. But in my opinion, it will be much more distressing to Dr Manette to find out Mr Darnay’s return to France by a letter, knowing that the risk of losing his life was very high. I think that to ask Mr Lorry to try of knowing the possibility of Mr Darnay having any support in France before his departure, would have been more reasonable and more reassuring. But at the end, it is possible that his shame for not having acted sooner, and his fear of appearing before the world as a coward has led him to rush now.
Everything is possible, but I think that he doesn´t want to be identified with what he finds odious and shameful, possibly he is considered a coward by the English (Stryver) and by the French, I don´t think his position would receive loud applause from his kinsmen, do you?
Carmen, I agree with you that if we write about the hidden motives everything is possible. And I like very much the uncertainties that Dickens leaves from time to time in his novel, because they are a good way to capture our interest and because they also are an endless source for us to analyze different possibilities and to write more and more, which would not be possible with a flatter novel.
Nevertheless, sometimes, although in theory there are different possibilities, the logic applied to the data imposes one possibility and discard others. But one of the problems we have is that, in some cases, the information that permits us to resolve the uncertainties appears several chapter later.
I'm sorry.
In my previous comment:
The logic .....imposes one possibility and discards others.
Mr Dartnay seems to be a good person but he lacks determination. He only has the excuse of having always being a downgraded rejected by his own family and by his class; but he didn’t involve with the revolutionary movement and now is too late. After the success of the revolution without Mr Darnay doing anything, he can not present himself before the revolutionary committee saying that he is the black sheep of his family and that he is a supporter of the revolution.
Moreover, we know that all Marquis’s progeny was condemned and, although Monsieur Defarge could accept to be benevolent for his sympathy with Monsieur Manette, Madame Defarge is not willing to forgive. And we also know that Monsieur Defarge doesn’t dare to contradict his wife.
In my opinion, Mr Darnay has become a rootless person: He belongs to a family that he hates, but the others can not forget who he is; he is French and he has chosen to exile himself, but in England he always will be a foreigner.
So, fate has played a trick on Mr. Darnay because his ideas are in conflict with those of his family and those of his class. He would like to be a normal citizen but he belongs to a family and to a social class that he hates. And although he has revolutionary ideas, he has not the courage of a revolutionary fellow. In short: he is an outsider.
I´ve liked your analysis of Darnay very much, Isidro, and totally agree with your view. He lacks determination, undoubtedly, and he is an outsider wherever he goes. I think that the fact that he wavers, that he is not sure as to how to act dooms him and that is why he ends up in La force.
FECHAS DE EXAMEN A2 20011
JUNIO: 17
SEPTIEMBRE: 1
Today in class we have been discussing about M.Darnay´s behaviour...and when I think about it , I remember the Pimpinel´s character. Is it possible that M. Darnay be acting like Pimpinel???
Probably he is playing a role...He seems coward,weak, without character...a man of good ideals but no actions. In the begining, M. Darnay was cussed of traition, a spy... he had a very important papers with him...What do those papers mean???
Is he making a double role????
what do you think about it ??? As in the movie, Scarlett Pimpinel will be an important character in the Revolution??? Why not M. Darnay????
Think about it...Is it possible????
Hello folks. I want to recommend you "Downton Abbey" a British television period drama series. It´s a drama set in pre-WWI England and centered on the dramas of the Crawley family and their servants. The characters have a nice British accent. You can watch it on-line (or if you prefer, you can download it). I think that Antena 3 broadcasts the series on Tuesday night, but in this case you should switch your TV language settings.
Reyes, the questions of your last comment are very interesting. In response of your invitation I am trying to explain my view.
I think that Mr Darnay is a naive and idealist fellow and not a man of action or an intriguing Fellow. The only thing he want is to live like a normal man because he doesn’t want to live, as himself says, “bound to a system that is frightful to me, responsible for it, but powerless in it” (chaper 9, second book).
In my opinion, it is possible that Mr Darnay in his first accusation in England were a victim of somebody, perhaps his uncle. We know that his uncle was aware of his situation in England and that the witnesses in the trail were unreliable people.
Moreover, recall that Mr Darnay said to his uncle: “I believe that if you were not in disgrace with the Court, and had not been overshadowed by that cloud for years past, a letter of cachet would have sent me to some fortress indefinitely”.
And the uncle retorted: “it is possible”.(chapter 9).
So, Mr Darnay doesn’t have political aspirations, when he went to England he only wanted to break away from a family that he hated. But now he regrets not to have doing more and “he knew very well that in his love for Lucy, his renunciation of his social place, though by no means new to his ow mind, had been hurried and incomplete. He knew that he ought to have systematically worked it out and supervised it,...”(chapter 24, second book)
But now it is too late. He knows that “the nobility were trooping from France by every highway and byway and their property was in course of confiscation and destruction and their very names were blotting out”. (chapter 24, second book).
And in spite of knowing this, he decided going to France because “he had oppressed no man, he had imprisoned no man......” and he thinks that the revolutionary people will understand his explanations. I think that his naivety is amazing. Don’t you?
In some, he is not like Scalet Pimpernel, because he is a loner fellow who does not have a support network, and therefore whatever initiative he undertakes is doomed to failure.
Isidro..Unfortunately , I know M.Stryver is not as S.P....but I´d like it if he were like that fantastic character.
Actually...he belongs to Nobility so he is proud,selfish, a with an air of superiority.....more aware of his own security than people.
Although he has good ideals, and he is not a bad man, he has not enough courage to figth for justice and people´s rights. As he has been educated in a good and very rich family , he is accustomed to living comfortably and without complications.
But..I would have liked that my theory were true.....because it would give a certain mystery and attractive Mr. Stryver´s character.
Reyes, did you really think of Mr Stryver instead of Mr Darnay when you wrote your last comment? I can not imagine that Mr Stryver could be the Scarlet Pimpernel of this story.
Isidro I am so sorry because I was mistaken....I meant "M. Darnay".. I was thinking of him the whole moment, but I wrote another name.
Thanks for noticing my mistake and correcting it, otherwise it would make no sense what I wrote earlier.
Thanks , again.
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